Torque Tube, Torque Converter Bearing Replacement Procedure w/pics
12-20-2010, 09:16 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
Ditto...I was up till almost 3 am this morning reading this one and the others on his website. Simply awsome.
Thanks for taking the time to write this up to help the rest of us,
Thanks for taking the time to write this up to help the rest of us,
12-23-2010, 10:06 PM
#77
Under the Lift
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Dwayne:
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
12-23-2010, 10:12 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
^^The manuevering is helped by two things.
Supporting front edge of the TT with one of those rolling shop stools with the lift cylinder.
Tilting the engine on its mounts with support under oil pan.
Combo of adjustable height shop stool on front of TT and adjustable height tranny jack on back, plus a tilt to the engine, makes it easy to mate the splines at the flexplate.
Epic write up. Incredible. Wish the rest of the rennlist community would see it.
Lifetime.
Supporting front edge of the TT with one of those rolling shop stools with the lift cylinder.
Tilting the engine on its mounts with support under oil pan.
Combo of adjustable height shop stool on front of TT and adjustable height tranny jack on back, plus a tilt to the engine, makes it easy to mate the splines at the flexplate.
Epic write up. Incredible. Wish the rest of the rennlist community would see it.
Lifetime.
12-24-2010, 12:48 PM
#79
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Dwayne:
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
I agree it seems to be a challenge to work on the pump seal and O-Ring while the transmission is still in the car. If we had some pictures of how someone has already managed it, that would be helpful.
On removing the bell housing, I did that because I'm a Newb. I was simply following the WSM procedure. Removing the bell housing made lining up the splines a non-issue but it was more work. I'm looking forward to performing the same work on Oregon shortly to install a spare Super Clamp and spare Super Bearings I have and would like to try some variations on the procedure I've posted here. Thanks for the addition and the feedback!
^^The manuevering is helped by two things.
Supporting front edge of the TT with one of those rolling shop stools with the lift cylinder.
Tilting the engine on its mounts with support under oil pan.
Combo of adjustable height shop stool on front of TT and adjustable height tranny jack on back, plus a tilt to the engine, makes it easy to mate the splines at the flexplate.
Epic write up. Incredible. Wish the rest of the rennlist community would see it.
Lifetime.
Supporting front edge of the TT with one of those rolling shop stools with the lift cylinder.
Tilting the engine on its mounts with support under oil pan.
Combo of adjustable height shop stool on front of TT and adjustable height tranny jack on back, plus a tilt to the engine, makes it easy to mate the splines at the flexplate.
Epic write up. Incredible. Wish the rest of the rennlist community would see it.
Lifetime.
Thanks for the additional clarification and for the positive comments!
12-24-2010, 02:00 PM
#80
Nordschleife Master
This write up is SO GOOD I feel like I could even do this job now! Dwayne is there anyway we can get a compilation of your photo essay repairs over on to the 928OC site and get them in ONE PLACE? That would sure be a nice easy way for members to find stuff they need and it would be a really nice benefit to members, or maybe even better get them as pdf files over on that site?
You are THE MASTER Dwayne! LOVE your write ups! Spectacular!
You mention the SUPER CLAMP and SUPER BEARINGS... I am having to do a trans replacement on my S4, are those both things I should do when the change over happens? How much time (on the bearings, I doubt any on the Clamp) will be added to the job if I have the TT bearing replaced do you think?
You are THE MASTER Dwayne! LOVE your write ups! Spectacular!
You mention the SUPER CLAMP and SUPER BEARINGS... I am having to do a trans replacement on my S4, are those both things I should do when the change over happens? How much time (on the bearings, I doubt any on the Clamp) will be added to the job if I have the TT bearing replaced do you think?
12-24-2010, 03:51 PM
#82
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This write up is SO GOOD I feel like I could even do this job now! Dwayne is there anyway we can get a compilation of your photo essay repairs over on to the 928OC site and get them in ONE PLACE? That would sure be a nice easy way for members to find stuff they need and it would be a really nice benefit to members, or maybe even better get them as pdf files over on that site?
You are THE MASTER Dwayne! LOVE your write ups! Spectacular!
You mention the SUPER CLAMP and SUPER BEARINGS... I am having to do a trans replacement on my S4, are those both things I should do when the change over happens? How much time (on the bearings, I doubt any on the Clamp) will be added to the job if I have the TT bearing replaced do you think?
You are THE MASTER Dwayne! LOVE your write ups! Spectacular!
You mention the SUPER CLAMP and SUPER BEARINGS... I am having to do a trans replacement on my S4, are those both things I should do when the change over happens? How much time (on the bearings, I doubt any on the Clamp) will be added to the job if I have the TT bearing replaced do you think?
I like the idea of getting the material over on the 928 OC site as well and will look into it. For now, Bill Ball has been kind enough to post all my write-ups on "Dwayne's Garage" (link in my signature). I send him a CD and he uploads them. This latest write up is not here yet, but perhaps Bill will be willing to upload it in the near future - I haven't talked with him about it yet.
Regarding installing the Super Clamp and Super Bearings, I like them a lot. If I were doing transmission or TT work on an S4, I would recommend installing them both (as well as replacing the Torque Converter bearings) for the reliability peace of mind. However, keep in mind this advice is coming from a newbie that only just installed these items and I have not put a lot of miles on them yet. I'm sure there are others here that have installed both the Super Clamp and Super Bearings and can attest to their superior performance.
I've also purchased a PKlamp that I plan to install on Idaho shortly. Since I have no plans to pull the transmission or TT on Idaho (or Iris) any time soon, I thought the PKlamp would be a good interim solution for my situation to help increase the grip of the OEM drive shaft clamp and thus help reduce the risk of Thrust Bearing Failure. Regardless of what clamp is installed, I would still recommend checking the flex plate preloading or drive shaft movement once or twice a year.
As far as extra time, assuming the TT is already out and ready to be serviced, it only took me a couple of hours of time to remove and install the Super Bearings using the tools and method described in this write up. There may be other, faster tools, methods, and pro mechanics. If I were in a hurry, I'm sure I could do it in less time so I would say 2 hours would be worse case.
I hope this helps - thanks for the question!
12-24-2010, 04:13 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
Dwayne,
These write-ups are wonderful. I love "Dwayne's Garage". I will be using several of the write-ups over the next few months. Will you be posting this file there? The reason I ask is that I would love to print it out and have it in the garage when I do the work.
If there is anything I can ever do for you, or if you are ever on the east cost and need a place to stay, just let me know. I could even pick you up at the airport and offer a shark to drive.
Bless you for sharing with the rest of us,
These write-ups are wonderful. I love "Dwayne's Garage". I will be using several of the write-ups over the next few months. Will you be posting this file there? The reason I ask is that I would love to print it out and have it in the garage when I do the work.
If there is anything I can ever do for you, or if you are ever on the east cost and need a place to stay, just let me know. I could even pick you up at the airport and offer a shark to drive.
Bless you for sharing with the rest of us,
12-24-2010, 04:19 PM
#84
Nordschleife Master
As usual Dwayne...WELL PUT! Are you a writer? You should be! Seriously!
So, I will ask them about TT bearings and the TC bearing as well before the job starts and see what the shop says and FOR SURE we will go w/ the super clamp. I agree on the PKlamp too...thinking that will be the next addition to the GTS's (since I have no plans to remove TT's on them at this point.)
Thanks again Dwayne and you might be able to send a CD over to Stan Shaw for upload to the OC site. We have talked about you and all your hard work and exceptional write ups since this past summer when I was added in to the mix.
If nothing else having a link to the "Dwayne's Garage" site is in order for sure!
So, I will ask them about TT bearings and the TC bearing as well before the job starts and see what the shop says and FOR SURE we will go w/ the super clamp. I agree on the PKlamp too...thinking that will be the next addition to the GTS's (since I have no plans to remove TT's on them at this point.)
Thanks again Dwayne and you might be able to send a CD over to Stan Shaw for upload to the OC site. We have talked about you and all your hard work and exceptional write ups since this past summer when I was added in to the mix.
If nothing else having a link to the "Dwayne's Garage" site is in order for sure!
12-24-2010, 06:49 PM
#85
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Bill,
The trans I worked on was an 85. The torque converter is smaller so this may be part of our different experiences. Of course I was doing this on the tilter so there could be an advantage there. Standing up looking at your work is easier.
The S4 is suppose to have a bigger hump to a ccomodiate the larger bell housing. I did lossen and push the tranny back first. Before I removed the bell housing I used the leverage of the torque tube to pull and wedge the front of the transmission away from the car. Once wedged I had plenty of room to work and things came out nicely. But again that could be due to the older model with the smaller torque converter.
I replaces both the trans seal as well as the oil pump O ring - strongly recommended by the Mercedes agency when I was purchasing the seal. Cutting the bell housing sure sped up the job. Just don't make me try to hook up the kick down cable with the oil pan on. That too longer than the rest of the job.
The trans I worked on was an 85. The torque converter is smaller so this may be part of our different experiences. Of course I was doing this on the tilter so there could be an advantage there. Standing up looking at your work is easier.
The S4 is suppose to have a bigger hump to a ccomodiate the larger bell housing. I did lossen and push the tranny back first. Before I removed the bell housing I used the leverage of the torque tube to pull and wedge the front of the transmission away from the car. Once wedged I had plenty of room to work and things came out nicely. But again that could be due to the older model with the smaller torque converter.
I replaces both the trans seal as well as the oil pump O ring - strongly recommended by the Mercedes agency when I was purchasing the seal. Cutting the bell housing sure sped up the job. Just don't make me try to hook up the kick down cable with the oil pan on. That too longer than the rest of the job.
12-24-2010, 08:10 PM
#86
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Dwayne:
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
Genius work, as always!
You know, I've done the TT and TC bearings with the tranny and rear end left in the car. Although that may be a reasonable alternative to dropping all the stuff out as you did, in no way could I get the TC out and get to the front pump. Dan (the Pod Guy) says otherwise, and he is FAR more experienced that I am. However, unless the crossmember and tranny is dropped, the TC simply will not clear the tunnel, at least in my 89. The cover will, so the bearings can be serviced, but I sure could not get the TC even close to out of the car, even with the tranny slid back and tilted as far as possible. I don't know what Dan's trick is. With your more "conventional" approach, servicing the seals behind the TC is easy and should be done.
One other thing - I'm not sure why you removed the bellhousing from the motor. That's a PITA and I don't think it's necessary. We recently swapped a tranny and TT in George Suennen's 91 S4 and we left the bellhousing intact. No need to cut the bellhousing or anything. We simply loosened the front TT clamp, removed the TT to bellhousing bolts and slid the tranny and TT back out of the bellhousing. It takes a little maneuvering to get it back together, but it's a whole lot less work than removing the bellhousing from the motor and reinstalling it. Also, we sprung for a transmission jack (under $100 at HF) and it made the whole process a lot easier.
Regardless, another superb write up!
12-24-2010, 10:30 PM
#87
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Dwayne,
These write-ups are wonderful. I love "Dwayne's Garage". I will be using several of the write-ups over the next few months. Will you be posting this file there? The reason I ask is that I would love to print it out and have it in the garage when I do the work.
If there is anything I can ever do for you, or if you are ever on the east cost and need a place to stay, just let me know. I could even pick you up at the airport and offer a shark to drive.
Bless you for sharing with the rest of us,
These write-ups are wonderful. I love "Dwayne's Garage". I will be using several of the write-ups over the next few months. Will you be posting this file there? The reason I ask is that I would love to print it out and have it in the garage when I do the work.
If there is anything I can ever do for you, or if you are ever on the east cost and need a place to stay, just let me know. I could even pick you up at the airport and offer a shark to drive.
Bless you for sharing with the rest of us,
THANKS again, James! I hope your Super Clamp install goes well!
12-29-2010, 09:09 AM
#89
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Been reading this thread and I am (as always) very impressed and grateful for your efforts to post this write up. Thanks for doing that!
Don't have a picture but they are square, maybe 1 inch x 1 inch, and have a slot from one of the corners to the middle. Come in different thickness. I didn't find them when replacing the transmission mounts, but I figured I don't need them either because they are only used to take up the difference in clearing between the transmission mount and the cross brace between the left and right side. If there is not difference (as per feeler gauge) none are needed.
Hi Stan,
Unfortunately, I did not run across any shims during this procedure on California ('84) or Virginia ('87). I do recall reading something about shims used on the transmission mount (the rubber mount that attaches to the side of the transmission) but I didn't remove these. Do you have a picture of one? I believe both California and Virginia had their rear suspensions worked on (removed) by the previous owners so could it be possible the shims were not replaced? THANKS!
Unfortunately, I did not run across any shims during this procedure on California ('84) or Virginia ('87). I do recall reading something about shims used on the transmission mount (the rubber mount that attaches to the side of the transmission) but I didn't remove these. Do you have a picture of one? I believe both California and Virginia had their rear suspensions worked on (removed) by the previous owners so could it be possible the shims were not replaced? THANKS!
12-29-2010, 10:50 AM
#90
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Hello Aryan,
THANKS for the comment and for the description and clarification of the shims - seems like every day I learn something new about the 928. THANKS!
THANKS for the comment and for the description and clarification of the shims - seems like every day I learn something new about the 928. THANKS!
