Oil Pan Pics
11-01-2010, 08:59 PM
#16
Race Director
Thread Starter
Want proof.....here it is...... I have personally BLOWN 3 engines that used the stock S4 style oiling system...all showed low pressure in turns, especially left turns...most used amsoil too... Need more proof take a look at 944's on track....same crappy oiling issues there....I have personally seen a 944 vent the block and eject a piston that hit the back wall at Thunderhill!! Whats worse is the 928 blew its engine the next day!!
Countless others, 5 come to mind instantly, have blown engines on track.... including some custom built engines!!
While I agree there is significant oiling problems with the 928 engine.... MK and Scott are the only ones that can drive their 928's on track with stock oiling systems and NOT blow up..it should also be noted that there is not much time on Scott's racer either....he only attends a few races a year.... Another aspect is TIME on the engine....I have 35 hours on track on the Estate with the OB oil pan, with no indication of bearing damage....35 hours is probably two years of typical race weekends!
I only speak from my experience as I am NOT an engineer.....with the mods I did I never see under 50psi in any turn on track...even at very HOT oil temps...
Ideally a race car should run a dry sump....just like Anderson does......it all comes down to $$$
Countless others, 5 come to mind instantly, have blown engines on track.... including some custom built engines!!
While I agree there is significant oiling problems with the 928 engine.... MK and Scott are the only ones that can drive their 928's on track with stock oiling systems and NOT blow up..it should also be noted that there is not much time on Scott's racer either....he only attends a few races a year.... Another aspect is TIME on the engine....I have 35 hours on track on the Estate with the OB oil pan, with no indication of bearing damage....35 hours is probably two years of typical race weekends!
I only speak from my experience as I am NOT an engineer.....with the mods I did I never see under 50psi in any turn on track...even at very HOT oil temps...
Ideally a race car should run a dry sump....just like Anderson does......it all comes down to $$$
11-01-2010, 10:53 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
11-01-2010, 11:04 PM
#20
Race Director
Thread Starter
Oil level has to be important too....since even a slight reduction in oil level could make oil starvation much worse!! I do run the Estate with more than 10 quarts
Bottom line is there are 5 theories on how to make a 928 engine live on track:
1: Kibort theory...leave everything stock and run amsoil (I tried this)
2: Accusump theory....others have had good success with this
3: I-J scraper theory....with good results
4: My cheapo theory....OB pan + spacer....working very well so far
5: Dry sump......I don't think any have failed yet
11-01-2010, 11:24 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
11-02-2010, 12:42 AM
#23
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
pan spacer, OB pickup (lengthened to accommodate spacer thickness), GB windage tray on the mildly refreshed Zyclamrot engine (90 S4). Dipstick length left alone. Torco. We'll see how it does.
EDIT: I forgot it also has the mesh screen you show Brian
EDIT: I forgot it also has the mesh screen you show Brian
Last edited by S4ordie; 11-02-2010 at 04:28 AM.
11-02-2010, 01:18 AM
#24
Race Director
Thread Starter
it should be fine.....it takes pretty serious G forces for a period of time to expose the problem...for example T2 at Thunderhill is a 6-7 second long high G corner...typically 1.1-1.2g on street tires and over 1.5g on R comps!
11-02-2010, 03:27 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Lets see... hmmm, your 3 engines.
1. was suspect, coming from willowsprings abuse, and unknown shape, blew some rod bearings.
2. was run 3 -4 quarts low during an endurance event, and the oil in it at the time was some K-mart oil, because it was dripping out 1 quart every other lap.
3. was the widow, and we dont know what shape that engine was in.
Its funny, but when we narrow the variables down to . "I built the engine and know what the bearings looked like and what the clearances were, AND use amsoil, AND do a warm up routine to make sure all components are at temp before I start beating on it, suddenly, a guy like me can run over 5 engines with no issues over a 13 year period. Im running 1:59 laps at Thunderhill, and the estate is running 2:10s. big difference. Scot, sure, is running partial season this year, last year more than half and the year before that, most the entire season. His car is running well. Personally, I put it through 1/2 a season of racing in 1 weekend. No issues, engine running strong, no oil issues, lots of pressure.
I dont think anyone really knows what the issues are, but the oil pickup seems to be working for the estate so I do give the credit that it is working. dont know if it is any better, or if better is better for that component, but its good that you have a motor that is not blowing its rod bearings.
maybe its the mahle filter ?
1. was suspect, coming from willowsprings abuse, and unknown shape, blew some rod bearings.
2. was run 3 -4 quarts low during an endurance event, and the oil in it at the time was some K-mart oil, because it was dripping out 1 quart every other lap.
3. was the widow, and we dont know what shape that engine was in.
Its funny, but when we narrow the variables down to . "I built the engine and know what the bearings looked like and what the clearances were, AND use amsoil, AND do a warm up routine to make sure all components are at temp before I start beating on it, suddenly, a guy like me can run over 5 engines with no issues over a 13 year period. Im running 1:59 laps at Thunderhill, and the estate is running 2:10s. big difference. Scot, sure, is running partial season this year, last year more than half and the year before that, most the entire season. His car is running well. Personally, I put it through 1/2 a season of racing in 1 weekend. No issues, engine running strong, no oil issues, lots of pressure.
I dont think anyone really knows what the issues are, but the oil pickup seems to be working for the estate so I do give the credit that it is working. dont know if it is any better, or if better is better for that component, but its good that you have a motor that is not blowing its rod bearings.
maybe its the mahle filter ?
Want proof.....here it is...... I have personally BLOWN 3 engines that used the stock S4 style oiling system...all showed low pressure in turns, especially left turns...most used amsoil too... Need more proof take a look at 944's on track....same crappy oiling issues there....I have personally seen a 944 vent the block and eject a piston that hit the back wall at Thunderhill!! Whats worse is the 928 blew its engine the next day!!
Countless others, 5 come to mind instantly, have blown engines on track.... including some custom built engines!!
While I agree there is significant oiling problems with the 928 engine.... MK and Scott are the only ones that can drive their 928's on track with stock oiling systems and NOT blow up..it should also be noted that there is not much time on Scott's racer either....he only attends a few races a year.... Another aspect is TIME on the engine....I have 35 hours on track on the Estate with the OB oil pan, with no indication of bearing damage....35 hours is probably two years of typical race weekends!
I only speak from my experience as I am NOT an engineer.....with the mods I did I never see under 50psi in any turn on track...even at very HOT oil temps...
Ideally a race car should run a dry sump....just like Anderson does......it all comes down to $$$
Countless others, 5 come to mind instantly, have blown engines on track.... including some custom built engines!!
While I agree there is significant oiling problems with the 928 engine.... MK and Scott are the only ones that can drive their 928's on track with stock oiling systems and NOT blow up..it should also be noted that there is not much time on Scott's racer either....he only attends a few races a year.... Another aspect is TIME on the engine....I have 35 hours on track on the Estate with the OB oil pan, with no indication of bearing damage....35 hours is probably two years of typical race weekends!
I only speak from my experience as I am NOT an engineer.....with the mods I did I never see under 50psi in any turn on track...even at very HOT oil temps...
Ideally a race car should run a dry sump....just like Anderson does......it all comes down to $$$
11-02-2010, 09:56 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Bottom line is there are 5 theories on how to make a 928 engine live on track:
1: Kibort theory...leave everything stock and run amsoil (I tried this)
2: Accusump theory....others have had good success with this
3: I-J scraper theory....with good results
4: My cheapo theory....OB pan + spacer....working very well so far
5: Dry sump......I don't think any have failed yet
1: Kibort theory...leave everything stock and run amsoil (I tried this)
2: Accusump theory....others have had good success with this
3: I-J scraper theory....with good results
4: My cheapo theory....OB pan + spacer....working very well so far
5: Dry sump......I don't think any have failed yet
My engine grenade thread
An important factor, and the hardest to quantify, is driving style and the tracks themselves. If you tend towards short-shifting and run shorter, technical tracks then the engine lasts longer. This is not a "fact" but is something I've pieced together from people's reports.
Last edited by GlenL; 11-02-2010 at 10:16 AM.
11-02-2010, 12:47 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
My theory is that its not the short shifting, as I dont short shift, shifting at near redline on every single shift for many years now.
I have all the races on video, so you can verify that.
these are mostly long fast tracks, some technical, but all have turns that are sweepers that over 3-6 seconds in length and very high G loading on the best of the R compounds.
so, my theory is that its a combination of things. poor warm up, short shifting (or being in the wrong gear) around turns so that the oil pressure DOES go down dramatically. I did a test on a pace car full course caution lap around some of the more demanding turns at half RPM, an RPM that many might shift iinto when they are in track mode, and trying to be "smooth" with hot oil, the oil pressure drops substantially. So, in a race or in an all out DE mode, if you are short shifting, or not having the RPM up in the 4500rpm range, min around the turns, and pulling substantial Gs, you could be damaging things due to oil starvation.
The funny thing here is NOONE posts video of themselves driving. lots of talk, no video or proof. I gurantee if we saw the videos of these failed engines. (not brians suspect engine, or one that was run 3 quarts low on Kmart oil) we could see some interesting aspects of the conditions that might lead to bearing failure.
I'll say it again, as I see it at the track often, warm up is critical. at the track, more often than not, boneheads are starting cold engines and reving them up like motorcycles at a stoplight to warm them up faster. there is no reason to think our 928 group is any different. If so, i suspect that doing that might harm our engines more than most others due to this weakness of design.
I dont believe in luck. I build engines, check tollerances, use the stock designs and race the 928 more often than anyone here. There is a logical reason why my engines have NOT had any problems. have not required any breathers, spacers, scrapers, accusumps, oil coolers, bumpsteer kits, chassis strenghtening bars, etc, and still run within 7% of the times of the worlds best drivers in a cup car at a track near you, ON real slicks, and its not luck.
one more thing Glen. Your engine was a euro and it had a scraper. I firmly believe that any of these contraptions, unless specifically approved by an autority, will restrict oil flow back into the sump, AND, dont forget, the early cars had the little tiny oil holes in the crank. I would not advise running any of the early cranks at the track because of this reason. huge difference in oiling design. 83 US cranks and newer only! (large oiling holes)
I have all the races on video, so you can verify that.
these are mostly long fast tracks, some technical, but all have turns that are sweepers that over 3-6 seconds in length and very high G loading on the best of the R compounds.
so, my theory is that its a combination of things. poor warm up, short shifting (or being in the wrong gear) around turns so that the oil pressure DOES go down dramatically. I did a test on a pace car full course caution lap around some of the more demanding turns at half RPM, an RPM that many might shift iinto when they are in track mode, and trying to be "smooth" with hot oil, the oil pressure drops substantially. So, in a race or in an all out DE mode, if you are short shifting, or not having the RPM up in the 4500rpm range, min around the turns, and pulling substantial Gs, you could be damaging things due to oil starvation.
The funny thing here is NOONE posts video of themselves driving. lots of talk, no video or proof. I gurantee if we saw the videos of these failed engines. (not brians suspect engine, or one that was run 3 quarts low on Kmart oil) we could see some interesting aspects of the conditions that might lead to bearing failure.
I'll say it again, as I see it at the track often, warm up is critical. at the track, more often than not, boneheads are starting cold engines and reving them up like motorcycles at a stoplight to warm them up faster. there is no reason to think our 928 group is any different. If so, i suspect that doing that might harm our engines more than most others due to this weakness of design.
I dont believe in luck. I build engines, check tollerances, use the stock designs and race the 928 more often than anyone here. There is a logical reason why my engines have NOT had any problems. have not required any breathers, spacers, scrapers, accusumps, oil coolers, bumpsteer kits, chassis strenghtening bars, etc, and still run within 7% of the times of the worlds best drivers in a cup car at a track near you, ON real slicks, and its not luck.
one more thing Glen. Your engine was a euro and it had a scraper. I firmly believe that any of these contraptions, unless specifically approved by an autority, will restrict oil flow back into the sump, AND, dont forget, the early cars had the little tiny oil holes in the crank. I would not advise running any of the early cranks at the track because of this reason. huge difference in oiling design. 83 US cranks and newer only! (large oiling holes)
I'm feeling thread fatigue on this one. (So much death!)
My engine grenade thread
An important factor, and the hardest to quantify, is driving style and the tracks themselves. If you tend towards short-shifting and run shorter, technical tracks then the engine lasts longer. This is not a "fact" but is something I've pieced together from people's reports.
My engine grenade thread
An important factor, and the hardest to quantify, is driving style and the tracks themselves. If you tend towards short-shifting and run shorter, technical tracks then the engine lasts longer. This is not a "fact" but is something I've pieced together from people's reports.
11-02-2010, 01:04 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Why dont you spend a lap with me on the video. tell me if Im short shifting.
Here is the difference in cranks for your review. certainly this is a MAJOR difference between all the engines Ive raced over 15 years of this stuff!
Mk
listen to the engine during the races. Here any short shifting here.
go to race 2 mid race after the track dried out , near 11:27 on the video and listen!
RACE 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrrH5H5kWCw
RACE 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jok3Wl4QcoE
Here is the difference in cranks for your review. certainly this is a MAJOR difference between all the engines Ive raced over 15 years of this stuff!
Mk
listen to the engine during the races. Here any short shifting here.
go to race 2 mid race after the track dried out , near 11:27 on the video and listen!
RACE 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrrH5H5kWCw
RACE 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jok3Wl4QcoE
Last edited by mark kibort; 11-02-2010 at 01:29 PM.
11-02-2010, 01:16 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
pay no attention to the mobil 1 banner on my car after the GTGP race. It was pulled off and washed in salt water after the event, to make sure no evil spirits remained on or near the car.