dprantl

1st gear from a standstill.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

EspritS4s

No, that doesn't work. The car may be at a standstill, but the engine is rotating and generating a HP number.

robot808

I'm gettin' hungry.

Lizard928

dprantl

Yeah, but if I am in a car with more torque and less peak HP than you, I will accelerate faster for the duriation of 1st gear. Your car could have 10,000HP, but you won't be seeing it until high RPM since you lack low-end TORQUE. By that time I will already be ahead, so I WIN!

See, you guys must understand. Mark must WIN whether it is sports, American Gladiators, racing, or an argument on the internet.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

EspritS4s

No, not true. If you launch the car at the RPM where peak HP is achieved, then the car with higher peak HP will be faster, notwithstanding traction issues which would be a whole different topic.

Now if the car is an automatic where you are forced to go through the RPM range, then you're right. In this case, peak HP is irrelevant.

I'm not defending Mark. I just don't understand why this topic generates so much confusion.

Man, I feel so lame discussing this on a Friday night with a 928 get together going on an hour away. Oh well, I'm babysitting tonight. Looking forward to meeting some 928ers tomorrow.

928 obsession

dprantl

What do you mean notwithstanding traction issues? This isn't an engine dyno scenario. Have you ever tried to launch a Honda S2000 from a standstill at 7k RPM?

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

EspritS4s

Even considering traction, all that matters is force applied to the wheels. It doesn't matter if it's a product of high torque at low RPMs or lower engine torque multiplied from a higher engine RPM. That being said, yes a car with a broad torque band will be easier to launch. This has nothing to do with peak hp though. Instead the car is limited by the HP/Torque curve, transmission, and driver ability.

auzivision

Torque is when you try to take pee in the morning sporting wood and knock your teeth out on the toilet after your feet slip out from under you when try pointing your junk down!

Power is all about how many teeth you lose.

ptuomov

An engine is designed in a way that it has some natural max torque limit. It's something like proportional to the max possible volumetric efficiency times displacement. So torque is in that sense a fundamental that it makes sense to think of torque curve in the context of the physical operation of the engine. Power which is important from the persepctive of fuel consumption and acceleration is, however, a derived stat in engine design. I think. Maybe.

GlenL

Torque determines torque. Multiply, or divide, by the gear ratio.

F=ma

God said so!

EspritS4s

Yup, HP is a derived number.

Torque determines torque, but higher engine RPMs delivering this torque allows for potentially higher torque multiplication due to gearing.

dprantl

Ok, so on an engine with a lot of low-RPM torque, in 1st gear from a standstill, you will be able to apply more torque to the wheels since the speed differential between the tires and road will be smaller for that torque value making the tires grip better, which means acceleration will be greater. So, low-end torque wins in this scenario. You know you want to say it.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

EspritS4s

I'm not sure that I understand this. There is no speed differential between the tires and the road at standstill. Once the tires start spinning, the differential is a function of force applied to the tires and the traction of the tires. It doesn't matter how that force is created (low or high engine RPM). The advantage of the low-RPM torque is that it's often more controllable due to drive train limitations and the compression of the torque curve in higher gears due to gear reduction (I know that statement is confusing, but I can't think of a better way to say it right now). I don't think that it makes sense to bring traction issues into this discussion because you could always use tires with more grip. If you want to discuss the relationship between HP and torque, it makes more sense to assume perfect traction. Otherwise, you might was well introduce other variables such as clutch or torque converter loss, drive train failure, or even driver skill.