FLUSH Center Console Development
 

Not as in "flush" the toilet (although that could be real handy on a long trip), but "flush" as in smooth or even with something else. Actually I looked in the Dictionary and there are at least a half dozen other definitions of "flush."

Credit for the original development of the flush center console goes to Kieth Widom. Credit for the further development by me goes to Nicole, who referred the this concept in her post in my previous thread as "the ideal, perfect solution would be a complete console reorganization that's also flush with the console--as done by Kieth Widom;" and to James Morrison who also said "I love what Kieth did! Developing a sort of base in which the original console components can be moved around to provide space for some up to date tunes/Nav/DVD etc. would be the way to go."

Based on all of that, and careful study of the pictures in Kieth's thread, I decided to do just that. As you may recall, I changed directions a little in my trim piece HOW TO thread and completed that lesson with a prototype lower trim piece for this flush console development. More to the point, I completed that lesson with a nice machine that can now be redirected to the fabrication of different versions of the lower center console trim piece.

I am pretty sure that the design of the lower trim piece will get changed and will probably result in at least two different versions of the item, one for the auto and one for the 5-speeds. The nice thing is that now I know how to make the forms for the different versions of the trim piece and I have a prototype to develop off of in terms of allowances, curves, angles, and such; and, I already have the machine to put the new forms in to form the trim pieces in whichever design is needed.

I will need to make another forming machine to form the flush upper panel which will be the real basis of this new "KIT" or "SYSTEM" for making the flush console conversion. It will be much less complicated than what I dragged many of you through in the HOW TO thread, and since you all now know how-to-do-it I don't plan on posting so many step-bystep pictures as I develop it. I will show you what it is like and probably how it works in this thread. My thrust here will be the development of the two primary flush Console components as and after they are formed.

So, my objective here is to complete the development of a system that anyone can use to make a Flush Center Console Conversion in their 928 incorporating a Double DIN Navigation/DVD/Etc. unit (hopefully) of the owner's own choice. I am however designing now around later versions of the Pioneer unit that keith put in his conversion.

If this development becomes viable from a commercial standpoint I will probably put it in my sponsorship as one of my commercial offerings. Therefore, the thrust of this thread is more about the development and not so much about promoting this concept commercially. I hope you understand the distinction.

One difference is that, as with my HOW TO thread, I don't know at this point if this concept will be commercially viable. One problem I anticipate is that there may end up being a BIG gap between what I develop here and a finished flush center console conversion or installation in someone's 928. Whatever that gap is will need to be filled by someone with the skill and knowledge to do the mechanical and electrical work and additional fabrication, such as mounting the Double DIN unit. In other words, it will not likely end up the be a system to "plug-and-play" that many or most of you might like or require.

Next I'll show you the preliminary work I have done on the two new forms I think will be needed. I'll need to take a couple of pictures for you and will then post them. I will also tell you some of my other thoughts about where I think this project is going. I will also encourage all of your thoughts and input about what might work the best of most of you in this development; since that kind of stuff is what actually has me going in this direction.

Thanks for watching. Jerry Feather

can't wait to see the outcome!

Yes, I'm a big fan of Keith's flush console solution. I think this would be a great option for those who

a. don't want to invest in the awesome carputer system

b. want more space inside the console

c. want to reuse original hardware in a more modern and ergonomic arrangement

My take is that there should be a double-DIN space for electronics; if someone only wants to use a single-DIN, the other could be a nice little storage compartment for sunglasses, CDs, or whatever.

cool, where can you view the original flush mount idea...any links?

Very cool concept and I'm looking forward to this thread.


*subscribing*

Excellent. I'm using the same Pioneer Avic double din dvd/gps unit so I am definitely interested too.

+1 very interested. Has anyone thought in consolidate Valentine1 input into one of these types of units? Perhaps there's a hack out there already to pickup the signal (wired or bluetooth).

Take a look at this (no personal involvement) :http://www.v1connect.com/

Valentine 1
 

perhaps a tangent to this thread - "sorry" but I thought worth mentioning. I "borrowed" Andrew O's set-up of mounting the V1 under the sunroof cover using the visor clamp. I then run the V1 remote off of the built-in cig lighter...easy...remote tilts to angle u desire. Really "stealths" the V1 from the traditional windshield mount.

Frank

Here are a few pictures of what I have done so far on this FLUSH console project. They basically show the start of the fabrication of the two new forms for the lower center console trim piece.

What I have done is rough saw four of the sides of the forms with the bandsaw and then sandwiched them together to file and machine them into final shape. Then I have concaved some material for the upper cross bars and cut off some flat bar material for the lower cross bars for the trailing edges. I have also drilled and tapped the side rails to mount on the forming machine base plate and then I will be bolting that onto the mill table and machining each to most of the shape I will need.

When they are machined enough while bolted to the base and have been drilled and tapped and bolted together I'll take them off the base and finish the milling in the mill vise. I hope to have both forms done by tomorrow so I can form some more plastic with them.

I am going to reduce the thickness of the plastic from 1/8 to 3/32 inch because I think I will get better definition in the finished pieces and because I was surprised at how little thickness I lost in forming the prototype trim pieces. In addition I am going to be forming even less with these new designs; so I think you will be pleased with the results from the thinner plastic.

Since I am reducing the plastic thickness I need to adjust for that in the size of the forms. I am adding about a sixteenth or slightly more to the size of the forms to take up the loss. However, I am still allowing space for the finished product to be covered with leather; and that will be required for these inserts made out of 3/32. However, it occurs to me that some of you may be interested in utilizing these inserts without leather cover. In that case I think I will retain the option of making these parts with the new forms with eighth inch plastic and let the extra thickness take up the space where the leather would otherwise go.

Later, when I come back in again, I am going to post a lengthy narative about what I have in mind for this whole FLUSH Console project.

I had mentioned before at one point or another that I intend to take the FLUSH Console concept to a new level! (Now I wonder if I made that same pun before when I did?) Anyway, what I mean by that is that the development of the lower trim piece has come a long way from what I had started out to do in my HOW TO thread. It has even gone quite a bit beyond the trim piece that I ended up with in the other thread.

By what I have to say about what I intend to accomplish I do not intend to take anything away from what Kieth did; and I will say that his flush console conversion is probably the best executed one-off flush conversion we will ever see. That being made clear I nevertheless want to start with his conversion and from that or with that in mind or even in view (which it is for me while I am writing this out by hand), I want to point out where I am going to further develop and improve upon what Kieth did in some minor ways and in one or two not so minor ways, and, at the same time, end up with a "system" or components that will take most or all of the fabrication and trim-fitting out of the process, and some of the mounting fabrication.

I am looking at one of Kieth's pictures, the one that has a quartering view of the console from the right side. Starting at the top, one thing that I notice is that the slot on the right side of the AC vent is empty. I think that is because only the vent grill was roatated up flush and not the body of the AC vent inside. What I intend to do is cut the inside vent out of the console with a coping saw and then fasten it onto the insert that I am going to make for the upper console area. Then the grill will press into the insert from the front. That is going to put the grill slightly above flush but it will fit closer to the edge of the console and will keep the vent functional. Of course that part of the conversion will have to be done in the field by the installer, but I can provide instructioins about where and how to cut the vent out and will provide a place for it to be fastened in the insert. In addition I think I will be providing some kind of connecter to fill the gap between the relocated vent and the airbox under the dash.

Moving down a little you will notice the double DIN unit has a nice trim piece around it which is also flush, but with the face of the unit about a quarter inch above flush. In my system there will be no need for the trim ring and the 2XDIN unit will be mounted a little deeper, probably putting its face surface at about the same level as the AC vent grill.

At the bottom of what will be my upper insert you can see that the HVAC and AC/lock panel are essentially flat but that there is some slight curvature in the upper edges of the console there. You can also see that these two items are trimmed with what was the original trim pieces. In my system these two items will also be located here but with the new upper insert, again, taking the place of the trim. It will also be formed so that its outer edges match the console curvature here. In addition, I have noticed that these two items next together in their original location and their combined fronts are flat. However, I find that they can also be nested together in such a way that their fronts will match the curve a little better.

As to the upper insert I think I will be reducing some very slight gaps and joints that will give a slightly smoother and continuous look.

More to follow.

P.S. If you haven't figured it out yet go to one of the earlier posts where you will find the link to Kieth's project

Good thinking here, I really like what you are doing here. Keith's job indeed set a DIY standard, and it looks like you are going to take that to another level, more consistent with a "production" approach, if you will. I'll be following this closely, which I think makes me a member of a pretty big posse...

Moving now to the lower insert or shifter trim/clock panel, what you can see is that where the clock panel has been moved to has a tiny bit more curvature to the console than the area above it where it was before.

(Again, look at post number 6 for the link to Kieth's thread if you want to follow along with this narrative.)

It is barely noticable, but I have put more curvature in my forms to fix it. You will also notice that in using the original trim piece and shifter boot there is a failrly large gap just foreward of the boot and below the clock panel. You will also notice that although the trim panel is raised to where its outer edges are flush, it is still beveled so the inner areas are not flush.

You will recall that in the conclusion of the HOW TO thread I ended up with a shorter trim piece that raises a little more of this piece up to flush and that has a smaller shifter opening, but which is still substantially recessed. What I am going to do here is raise the whole upper surface of this trim panel to flush and then form in its surface an indent about only 3/8 inch deep and only slightly bigger than the space necessary to clear the shifter orbits. On the one for the 5-speed that will be somewhat squarish and on the one for the auto it will be a longer and narrower rectangle. Both of the recesses will be offset a little to the left. Then, whatever space is left over on what used to be the clock panel and now quite a bit of space on the right and to the rear of the shifter, especially the one for the auto, will be blank for whatever you want to put there, including the clock of your choice, power outlets, gauges. lights, switches or whatever else.

In the recesses for the shifter I will fabricate a base plate for the shifter boot and make a boot for each of the shifters that will have only one seam up the back and will end up being much more compact and trim looking than the originals. That will do away with the gear selection indicator on the auto shifter, but one possibility is that one of us might come up with a way to put some lights along the left edge of this new panel that will correspond to the gear or shifter position in conjunction with the indicators in the instrument cluster.

On the trim piece for the auto there is going to be scant room for a clock foreward of the shifter, but plenty, I think, for a clock off-center to the right and for the two rear AC controls the the right of the shifter.

If I elect to form the plastic for the flat face of the clock in the curved areas of this piece I'll do it only fairly shallow--not so much as in the prototype trim piece I formed in the other thread.

Later yesterday I got one of the forms partly fabricated on the base plate of the forming machine and will finish that one up today. I may even get much of the second one done today also. I made drawings of the two shifter boot recesses yesterday and will make a little plastic pattern of each and put it in place on one of the forms so I can give you a preliminary idea of what I am talking about as to their size, shape, and placement. Forming plastic by later today is not too likely because I forgot that I also need to do some work on the upper forming menbers, particularly making a form member that will press the plastic surface down into the curvature on the upper surface of these forms.

Jerry

Here is a mid-day report. I have one of the new forms nearly complete. I still have to round the corners of the trailing edge and I have to cut and rasp the two bars that are describing sides of the indent for the shifter. This one is for the auto shifter cars.

The first of these shows where I ended up yesterday and here with a piece of plastic cut to the size of the indent for the 5-speed shifter indent layed approximately where the indent will be. The rest of the body of this trim piece will be flush with the top edge of the console.

The second one shows the same but with the aut shifter indent pattern in place.

Third and fourth show that I have fastened the tail end cross bar and have cut the indent opening out for the auto shifter.

In these pictures the form is still bolted to the base of the forming machine, so I have not trimmed the ends of the cross bars yet. I did that and that will show up in the next three pictures.

These last three pictures from this morning show that I have removed the form from the base and milled the ends of the cross bars. One of them shows the underside of the form just in case you are curious about what that looks like.

The last picture shows the prototype trim piece from the other thread pressed down onto this new form just to so show how different the new trim piece is going to be. You can also tell how far off it was from working for the auto shifter.

Jerry

Wow!! That looks gorgeous!!

OK! I seem to be getting better at this. I just lookled at the time when I came in from my last go around and saw that I have made about 75 to 80 percent of the second form in about two and a half hours. Here is a picture of it.

With a little more time on this one and then on both of them to do some detailing I will be ready to form plastic with them. I still need to make some forms for the female side of this process, but I don't think that will take too long.

I hope by next weekend I can be building the form and machine for the upper insert, then we can see what this system is going to look like.

In the picture you might notice a drop or two of sweat, but I have wiped the blood off before I took the picture. (If you think that is funny, you ought to look at my hands!)

Jerry

Jerry - Awesome work!

I haven't been following this thread until now and, like all, have my oppinion. That being - Is the clock REALLY that important to be in the console? Most all Stereo heads display the time too so it kind of seems repeticious. I elimintated the clock to allow me to fit my double din unit in MY85. THough functional - not nearly as nice as your unit will end up being.

Frank

Jerry, looks good and things are starting to shape up quickly. Judging from your automatic version, am I to assume there is NO space for a clock? (I'm OK with that with a double-din unit fitted) Also, I have one of the sport shifters with the draped leather shift cover (you know, it looks like one of those slower 5-spds) will your design accommodate those updated shifter handles?

One problem that is nagging at me in the back of my mind is that when I measured Tom's 5-speed shifter I am not too sure which version it was. He had one or two other shifters there, but we did not try to interchange them to see how the shifter orbit for each of them compared with the one I measured. Intuitively I am thinking that the shifter orbit at about the flush level of the console is essentielly the same for all the shifter versions. Problem is my intuition is sometimes wrong.

I have allowed for the shifter orbit that I measured and for about a half inch all around, for good measure, for shifter boot mounting, and for esthetics, but if one or the other of the shifter versions has a much greater throw of the shifter handle, I may be in trouble.

As to the shifter handle, I can't see why the handle itself will make any difference. It might be that the base of the handle where the top of the shifter boot connects is different for some of them, and if I make only one version of the shifter boot for the 5 speeds, something will have to give. On the other hand, I suspect that the base of the handes are all pretty similar in size. If not, one approach is to mandate a certain shifter handle with this conversion or to simply make different versions of the boot.

As to the clock, I have lost my emphasis on the clock. I think the smaller version of the Infiniti clock will work on the trim piece for the auto cars, and maybe even right in front of the shifter, although that location is going to be very tight. However, for my own purposes I intend to put either version of the Infiniti clock to the right of the shifter and, on those of my cars with rear AC, I'll put the two AC controls just below it in line on the right side of this trim piece.

On the left of the shifter I am still thinking of some little lights to show the shifter position and on the left of the upper, former clock panel, I might put a power outlet or something else. In the new larger rear area of either of these new trim pieces I don't know what I might put there, if anything. Maybe that's a better place for the power outlet.

Thanks for your interest and for your questions. It always helps me to generate more thought about this project.

Jerry Feather

Last night I got the two inner longitudinal bars fastened in to the foreward cross former bar and then when I milled out the shifter recess I discovered that I had Put the two foreward bolts in the wrong place. That made me make a whole new front cross bar and redrill the holes so that I can get the shifter opening as far foreward as I want. Even then, I didn't move the holes as far as I could have and am still about an eighth of an inch short of where I said I was going with the opening. I guess we will see if that is going to be enough.

Next I have to take this form off the mill table and off the base plate and then mount the mill vise on the table and mill off the ends of the cross bars flush with the side bars. After that I will be able to do the final finishing of both forms at the same time.

I am also working of the method of forming the upper forming devise that will be pushing the plastic down into this fairly deep concave curvature. The plastic will not pull down in ther fully when it is formed and must be pushed in that area to form properly. You would think it would, but it wont. That is the last major form item to make. There are two minor items to make for forming however and those are the two forms to push the shifter recess into the openings I have made for them They will simply be cut out of about 3/16 inch plate and shaped for the opening recess. I'll also have to make some cross bars to mount these items to the machine. When all of that is done I'll be forming some plastic and see how they come out.

I am also starting to do the design of the form for the upper flush insert. I have been studying the air vent grill and think that I am going to trim off about 3/16 of an inch from each end so that the ends will match the top and bottom edges. That will also give us some more area of the insert to be revealed for a nicer look, I think.

At the bottom of the upper insert I'll be putting the HVAC and AC/lock panels, just like Kieth did. In between is where the double DIN unit will go. There is going to be a little relief between the units in this panel; but even at that, it occurs to me that after this insert is formed and then cut out for these items there is not going to be much left of it. That is, however just the nature of it.

More thoughts later.

Jerry

Thanks for all the blood, sweat, and effort on this Jerry!
Watching very close, my order to follow.

Hi JP. As close as you are I can envision you making a trip over the mountain with you 5 speed so that it might become a test case for that version of this conversion. Start looking for a Pioneer AVIC double DIN navigation unit of late/recent manufacture that you might like to put in your 928. I have been buying some of them on eBay and have one that is the AVIC-X910BT, one AVIC-X920BT, and one AVIC-Z3. If you get something like one of these that will be the simplist since that is what I am going to design around.

Jerry

Jerry,

Very cool!

Hi Jerry. I could be wrong but I think you may have misunderstood my earlier question. I have an automatic with the "Sport shifter" as is sold by Paul Champagne and formerly by 928 Motorsports that was made in Australia. The handle is irrellevent as nothing has functionally changed there. However the draped leather below it has a frame at the base that mimics the appearance of a 5-speed shifter and covers the console portion that shows the P R D 1 2 and the accordian-fold plastic. Is there any provision to accommodate this stylish update in your plans?

Hi Paul. Thanks for that explaination. I almost understood that that was what you were saying, but not quite. Now that I have a clear understanding of what you are asking, the answer is NO!

I think that the kind of shifter boot that you are talking about was intended to do just what you suggest., and that is to emulate the 5 speed shifter. However, in order to do that in the context of the lower trim piece that is original it has to be way bigger than it needs to be to be a boot for the shifter. In order to make this lower trim piece flush like the upper part of the console I am eliminating the "hole" that the base of your boot fits in. The base of my new boot for the Auto shifter will be much smaller and will also be a nice stylish update for the auto cars. By reducing the size of the base of the boot I am going to be leaving a lot of blank space in this new trim piece for other things, or just "flushness." There wont be a need of such a big base to the boot, but there will be a need for a new boot, which I will expect to provide with the flush conversion system.

I hope that answers your question.

Jerry Feather

P.S. Likewise for the 5 speed shifters. The base of the shifter boot will also be much smaller than the ones they have now, but a significantly different shape, because the shifter orbit is much different. JF

P.P.S. Paul, go back to post number 16 and look at the first picture. The opening in approximately the middle of the form I made is the shape of the base of the shifter boot for the auto cars. The space around it is going to be flush with the upper edge of the center console. The area for the shifter boot is going to be recessed about 3/8 inch and in that I will put a ring or form that will hold the base of the new boot. The upper end of the boot will of course be fixed to the shifter handle. JF

Jerry, Thanks for your reply. :crying: HOWEVER, couldn't the same (or similar) pattern used for the 5-speed be adapted (and/or the leather boot modified) to fit in the space you have allocated? I am a serious candidate for your program because I will go dbl-DIN display (radio/cd/gps, etc) and would enjoy the "flush look" you are working on. Just wondering.

Sounds like a good excuse for a road trip. I will look into the units mentioned. I'm looking to add a rear view camera so it sounds like a plan coming together.

Hi Paul. That is an interesting thought. It could be that the boot that I will be making for the 5 speed is actually the same boot I will be making for the auto shifter. I haven't compared the measurements, but the perimeter of the two could be the same or very close to the same. It doesn't really matter, however, since there is no big issue to having two different patterns for the two. Either one has to be cut out of leather and sewn up the back, so it really doesn't matter if they are interchangeable or not.

Good thought though.

Jerry Feather

Jerry,
I use the stock 5 speed boot on my auto with the Momo shift knob.

Keep up the good work!

I think that the only use anyone is going to have for thier original shifter boot, whether from and automatic of a 5 speed, is to cut it apart and use the leather to make a new shifter boot that will match the pattern for the one or the other that will be required for either of these new lower around-the-shifter trim pieces.

Too, that may be of some value too since I expect to be fairly limited in making shifter boots out of all of the different color leathers that might be desired to match anything but basic black, dark blue, or dark red. That could change if I decide to get serious about finding any of the other Porsche colors that might be wanted.

Jerry

Somebody on here sent me an email yesterday asking if the Pioneer Avic-Z1 unit would work in this conversion. My response was that I didn't know yet. My main concern, now actually about any of them, is that Kieth found that he had to move something on the air box under the dash to get his Avic-D2 (I think) unit to fit. However another member later posted (and I can't find it now) that he used the Pioneer Avic-X910BT unit in a conversion similar to Kieth's and didn't have to move anything on the air box.

As near as I can tell, however, all of these units seem to have the same overall dimensions. In fact, I suspect that even similar units from other manufacturers are likely to be the same size; and the front opening is also likely to be the same. The one difference I found with a Kenwood unit I saw at Best Buy when I was trying to find out what "double DIN" meant, had the same size front panel, but that it protruded about an eighth of an inch farther out. That kind of difference will have to be adjusted for with a spacer in the back of the upper insert, I think.

It might be that I will need to develop something to help move something on the air box, but I hope not.

Jerry Feather

I took off of work a little early this afternoon and got a chance to nearly finish up both the the two new forms I am making. I removed each of the four intermediate bars and finished the top surfaces of all of them to match the contour of the form and then rounded the trailing edge corners of one of the forms. I also did a little filing and sanding on both of them, so they are almost finished. I'll round the corners of the other one a little later this evening and then all I have to do is de-burr all of the corners where the plastic will be forming.

Usually I try to round the corners enough so that I feel like the plastic will pull around the corners somewhat, but that tends to compromise the detail. With these forms I think I will try to leave the edges very crisp, perhaps rounding them a tiny bit with just emery cloth and not use a file on them. If that caused a problem in the forming I can always do it over and round them a bit more.

Here are three pictures of what I have so far. I hope you can envision what the plastic will look like stretched over these two forms.

Jerry Feather

I meassured the two shifter openings and find that the opening for the 5 speed is about 2 inches bigger around than the opening for the auto shifter. I guess that means there will for sure be two different patterns for the shifter boots.

Jerry

I made a drawing of the upper insert, of sorts. Here are a couple of pictures of it. Actually it is a drawing that gives me the outer pattern of the form for the upper insert, so it is a little smaller than the insert will actually be by the thickness of the formed plastic (a little more than a sixteenth, I think) and the thickness of the leather covering it. However, the openings in the drawing are full size, not including an allowance for the leather covering.

As I mentioned before I am going to cut the upper air vent out of the console and put it in this insert. Then I am going to relocate the vent grill a little lower that it is originally by maybe as much as a quarter of an inch. In doing so I am also going to trim the left and right edges of the vent grill off so the overlapping edge is the same all around. That will eliminate the four little locating pins, some of which are probably broken off already.

This part of this insert will be angled very slightly foreward to match the upper part of the console.

Below the vent will be the Double DIN Nav/etc. unit. I think it is going to be mounted in the console and not in the upper insert. That will require some kind of cage for it to be located in which I think I'll fabricate as part of this system. That will help to put some stiffness back into the console since this project is essentially going to remove most or all of the cross bracing plastic presently in the console.

At the bottom of the upper insert will be the present HVAC controls nested together. That part of the insert will have a slight curvature upward to match the console so these two items will be mounted at a slight angle. Again, they will be mounted in the insert and not the console.

This upper insert will of course become the mount for some of the console items and will also be the trim for all of it.

This is so cool! I can't wait to see it installed in a 928 console!

One challenge will be the way the console is beveled right before the window switches, and the other challenge will be the tolerance of these consoles.

I have experienced about 2mm of tolerance in the original console inserts (around the shifter), for some reason. Maybe you can make the end of the insert such that it can be sanded a bit to fit into the shorter consoles?

Hi Nicole. This is a very astute observation on your part. I am beginning to think that you are a real gear head! Actually, I reached that conclusion some time ago about you. It is really nice to have someone else observing these kind of details.

What you might have observed with what I am calling the "prototype" trim piece that I finished the HOW TO thread with that it had the trailing edge ground and sanded down to a nearly knife edge. That was for the purpose of having it nest right into this beveled recess you are talking about. The problem is that even with it ground so thin it was going to be covered top and bottom with a layer of leather and just the leather on the bottom was going to tend to hold it up a bit above flush if it comes all the way back to the upper edge of the bevel, where I would like it.

When I started fabricating the two new forms for the Flush console in ernest I tried pretty hard to keep the dimensions the same except for allowing a little more beef to take up for the thinner plastic I am planning to use. The problem is that I was not as careful in laying out the length of the form correctly, and that is probably because I shortened them about a half inch so the crossbar for the trailing edge would cantilever off the back. Anyway, I ended up with the forms being about an eighth of an inch shorter that the original form.

Rather than start over, I decided to rationalize the loss of an eighth of an inch and decided that I will be better off with it short since I can finish it fatter and not so knife edge and still cover it with leather and have it fit into the bevel area at the rear, but not quite so tightly. That means that there will likely be a little distance from the trailing edge of the trim piece to the upper edge of the bevel, but I don't think it is going to be noticable as a gap so much as it might since it is filled with bevel and not space. In other words, I don't think it will look like a gap. In fact I think it will look very nicely finished. Too, there will be more flexibility in grinding or sanding this trailing edge to get just the right result without trying to bring it back all the way. Pretty nice rationalization, don't you think?

Jerry

More to the point of your inquiry, Nicole, With the shorter trim piece I am going to end up with the adjustment for the different length, if there really is some in the console and not just the original trim piece, as you suggest, will be by grinding the trailing edge a little thinner and not shorter and moving it back as needed and still stay flush.

I have six consoles total, but I haven't done any measuring to see how close they are in any dimension.

Jerry

Very interesting! I can't wait to see the finished set of inserts!

Nice parry, nice riposte! Love this place.

Thanks Martin, but my feeling is that this is more like professional wrestling than fencing. Jerry

I'll bet you were wondering where Jerry went.

I didn't get much done on the project the last couple of days, but today I got the forming machine back together with one of the new forms, the one for the auto shifter version, and have the the upper forming components almost complete. I had to make a convex curved form to push the plastic down into the curvature on the upper part of the form and then a male form to push the plastic down into the only recess that this whole conversion is going to have, the shallow recess around the shifter.

Here are some pictures of progress.

The first picture shows the last forming member that still has to be drilled to match the bar above (in the next picture) where it mounts.

The second shows the bar where the recess form bolts. Also, at the right corner of the arrowhead is the convex member that I made this morning to form the curved surface as mentioned above.

The last picture shows the machine all folded up in all of its compexity.

More tomorrow, I think.

Jerry Feather

While I was waiting for company to come for dinner tonight I got to drill and counterbore the last forming member for the forming machine and got it mounted and located where I want it. In the morning I am going to form the first of the latest ganeration of flush console lower trim pieces and see how close we are coming to what I have in mind.

While I am waiting for the oven to heat up and warm the plastic I am going to start the form member for the upper insert for this conversion system. I have some preliminary measurements made and some fabrication criteria developed, so it ought to go pretty smoothly. If I get some significant progress made I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

Have a nice evening.

Jerry Feather

I couldn't sleep without trying it out!

I know the feeling. The problem is that it takes about an hour for the oven to heat up, so that would put me kind of late testing it out. Too, there is a little more work to be done just the get the machine loaded with the new thinner material I am gong to try. Also I find that I do not like to finish a project when I am tired. If I get close to the finish of something and am also at the end of the day or otherwise tired, I find that I am much better off to wait until the next day or available time to finish and do it when I am more on the upside of a work session rather than the down side. That is probably why, in part, that I have so many unfinished projects.

Jerry Feather

And all your fingers, I presume.

Safety is impossible when tired.

I had the pleasure tody of entertaining Rod DeM. From Mass. who with his son. had occasion tod rop by and see what I was doing in the shop.

What I had started was the form for the upper flush console insert. I was using a piece of lhalf inch aluminum plate and beveled it and curved it to closly match the contour of the upper console. I used the flycutter and was able to get the contour pretty close.

I also loaded the form machine with the first piece of 3/32 inch plastic to try the form for the first auto shifter lower trim panel. We cooked it for about an hour until it was up to temperature and then pressed it all together. The first pull came out pretty nice, but showed where a couple oflminor adjustments were needed. I made the adjustment and loaded it up again and now have the second one cooling in the machine.

In the meantime here are a couple of pictures.

The first picture shows the newly formed trim piece for the auto shifter compared with the last of the prototype trim pieces I did in the HOW TO thread.

The second picture shows the plate in the mill, but it doesn't look like much right here.

The other two are close ups of the plate edges which show the curvature and bevel of the plate to match the upper edge of the console. Sorry one of them is out of focus.

Jerry Feather

Well done Jerry.

Your skill as a machinist and initial results are more than impressive. Thanks for keeping us all in the loop.

Thanks, Mike. Doing this stuff is a lot of fun and even more fun sharing the progress with all of you.

What I have to do next is continue the development of the machine to form the upper insert. I have an idea to make the machine without a base plate as with the present machine, but the design has not come into very clear focus in my mind yet. I think it is going to be sort of an organic process like I have described before.

When I get the next one or two lower trim pieces finished and trimmed to fit like I want, then I will be able to finalize the long dimension for the upper insert form. Right now I have the form plate in the mill, as shown, and with the width measurement milled onto it, but I need to determine the length before I can finalize that and then round the upper corners and taper the lower curved end. In the meantine I'll continue to process the overall design in my head.

Thanks for your feedback.

Jerry

I opened up the last plastic and found that it had failed. It has an opening in the plastic that I don't quite understand, but probably related to the temperature and closeness of the forming members.

Nevertheless I cut it out and trimmed it a little to see how it is goinjg to fit. Here are the pictures of the very preliminary fit in one of the consoles.

There is some adjustment to be done yet to get this item to fit properly and go where it is supposed to go without too much force. I'll be working on that in the next few days. Nevertheless these pictures show how it fits with some force for now, and shows the concept of flushness that I am presently striving for.

Jerry

:jumper::jumper::jumper:

Jerry would love one for a 5 speed. I have an old analog clock (pre 84? I'd like to use). Will the pictured one work? Seems like it would.

nice work!!

having seen Jerry's 5sp prototype lower console, I think this is going to turn out really nice. With a "modern" clock and possibly some of the raised panels covered in leather ..it's going to be NICE....

I look forward to seeing what you are doing for the upper part of the console :D...

Stefan, the pictured one is for the cars with the auto shifter. The space above the shifter recess is pretty narrow and I think too narrow for the factory analog clock. However, the other form I have made will form a lower trim piece much like this one except the shifter recess in it for lthe 5 speed is shaped differently. It is wider and shorter. It is going to have the clock area somewhat wider, from top to bottom, and I think the original factory clock will fit in it. Go back in this thread and look at the difference in the two forms.

Thanks for watching.

Jerry Feather

Its time to get some serious adjustment made in the forming machine. I found what made that nice little hole in the last trim piece I formed. The inside forming member was just touching the opening in the basic form, and when the plastic is hot and soft it cut right through. I was afraid it was the foming temperature, but now that is adjusted out.

I also find that the sides of the new trim piece (and actually the last ones made that I call prototypes) are not just where they ought to be. Therefore, I spent the evening making new side forming members to solve the problem. I hope these do the trick. I'll finish those up tomorrow and then try to form some more pieces.

When I get to that point then I can make some more progress on the next machine, the one for the upper insert. I did take a little time today and made a sketch of what I think the next machine out to look like and I think it is going to take shape real quick. I can do that while the oven is cooking. I did trim the basic form plate to the gross dimensions that I hope will work out and will next make the final trim of that in the bandsaw and with a rasp. I also got some mounting holes drilled and countersunk in it for mounting, so it is almost ready to go in the new machine.

NO PICTURES TONIGHT.

Jerry Feather

I took the rought drawingI made of the machine for the upper console insert and converted it to a one-half scale drawing on graph paper and now have it pretty well finalized. I don't know why it was causing me so much trouble to do it in my head, but putting it down on paper really helped.

The other thing it seemed to do was free up my brain for some of the next phases of development of this proect and in particular how I am going to plan on mounting the stuff this conversion is all about in the console. I had been thinking of a particular way to hand the Pioneer Navigation/DVD/Etc. in the console and after studying the console closely about how th cut the air vent out I think I have also figured out how best to mount the unit. I was holping to use as much of the original stuff as possible rather that having to develop much new stuff, and I think I have figured out how. If I am right, it will make the conversion a lot easier for anyone who might want to try this conversion.

Right now I am busy trying to make the final adjustments for the next effort at forming a lower trim piece for the auto shifter cars.

Stand-by for more.

Jerry Feather

I formed another of the lower trim pieces for the auto cars last night. I think I have the side forming members pretty close now. One more adjustment on one side and I think it will be forming to just the right depth for a proper fit. I may also want to adjust the upper cross forming bar to allow for a little less angle of the upper flange.

Then, I started cutting some material for the next forming machine. There are several pieces, so I will be spending a lot of busy time trimming, drilling, and tapping that material. When I get that done that machine will go together pretty quickly. It is going to come out pretty compact and a lot lighter than the first one, so it will be easier to handle.

I also did some measuring for the final shape of the upper foming plate. What I discovered is that the upper corners of the console recess that one might think of a circular or round in shape are actually more parabolic in shape. I think I will try to trim a piece of scrap aluminum to the shape I need before I try to do it on the real form.

More tonight, I hope.

Jerry Feather

Work continues on the new upper forming machine. I have several of the members cut and trimmed to final length in the mill and quite a number of holes drilled and waiting to be tapped. All of that is not picture worthy at this point.

I am also continuing to work on the other machine to get it to form the sides of the lower trim piece to the right depth. What I find is that the center consoles I have to work with are not quite symetrical. The amount of recess on the left side of both of them is about a 16th of an inch less that on the right side; and, that is only in about one location That means that after I make the side forming members together, and the same, I have to continue to sand the left one down so both sides of the trim piece will hit the bottom on the console at the time the upper surface is flush on each side. I am just sneeking up on it right now; and I have my last effort at that in the machine right now that I set to cool when I finished up last night. I'll take it out and see how close I am at this point. I hope they used the same mold at the factory for the center console in the later cars.

When I get the body of the lower trim piece forming correctly, then I need to cut some 1/8th inch ABS in strips to glue along the bottom of each side to fit into the recesses that will be holding both of these elements in the console. That is the recess outward in the inside where the original trim pieces are held in.

Then I am going to cover one or more of these trim pieces with leather and mock up the shifter boots in them so you can get an idea of where this is going.

As to the clocks, I think what the options are going to be are as follows:

1. Put the small Infiniti clock in the auto trim piece just above and inline with the shifter.

2.Put the small I. clock in the auto shifter to the right side of the clock panel.

3.Put the larger Infiniti clock in the auto shifter in the right side of the clock panel (I think it is too large to go just above the shifter.)

4. Put any of the clock options in the 5-speed trim piece in the center or otherwise. including the original clock, if desired.

5. It might be possible to put the original (rectangluar) clock in the auto shifter trim piece, but only by cutting off the right hand wing in the back and putting it to the right side.

Jerry

I got off early today and got to work on our project quite a bit. I continue to adjust the forming machine for the lower trim piece and hope I have it there. I have another forming cooling as we talk and will check after supper to see how close I am to final on it. If not, I think one more time will havel it.

While I was waiting for the oven to heat up to forming temp. I worked on new machine and the male form plate for lthe upper insert. I have a couple of pictures of progress for you.

The first picture shows the pattern I made for the corners of the upper insert as it is clamped onto the form for marking.

The next two pictures show the whole new machine mocked-up sort of as it is developing.

Jerry

Jerry, I have been following your development threads. Thank you so much for all of the detail and hard work.

Would you consider painting one of your test pieces in SEM or the like vinyl paint to see how it will match up with the console itself? I bet it would look good.

Hi Michael. The texture is off maybe more than a little bit, but these could be painted with any kind of plastic or vinyl paint. However, I am making them slightly undersized to allow for covering with leather. One thought I had a while back was to form some in the original 1/8 inch plastic that I started with to take up for the lack of leather if anyone wanted to do it that way, Then only problem is there is some loss of detail with the heavier plastic. Not bad, but some. I think that is still a possiblilty.

Jerry

What I did was take the last formed item out of the machine and trim it up to see how it fits. I think it is just about right. Then I took the next step with it and glued some strips of plastic along the bottom edge for the locking part in the channels in the console. Here are a couple of pictures of the clamped-up trim piece waithing for the ABS glue to cure.

It takes a lot of clamps because I am glueing a straight strip of plastic in a curved recess, and the plastic is pretty still.

Jerry

Stiff, not still! JF

My snap-in-the-groove method seems to work. I even hit the width of the snap material on the first try. Now I can cut up some more material while the bandsaw is set up to that width and have that out of the way for a while.

Here are a couple of pictures of the lower trim piece in place without the need for me to hold it where it goes to take a picture.

The one thing that it shows I will need is another snap-in piece to hold the trailing edge down and flat since it is being squeezed upward a bit in place without it.

If you look at the second of the last pictures you might notice that the left edge of this trim piece is actually still a tiny bit above the edge of the console. I didn't notice that at first since I was so pleased with myself in finding that with the glue-on snap material it seemed to be snapping into place. Nevertheless, I took that member off the machine and took another few thousandths off of it in that area.

I also found that it actually is not snapping into the holding recess as well as I thought. It takes a little coaxing to get the snap material into the recess; so I adjusted my bandsaw guide and cut a bunch of material just about 25 thousandths narrower. I think that will do it.

I have another trim piece cooling in the machine now and later will take it out and see how much closer I have come. While doing all of that I also worked on the second machine some more. If I give you a picuture later you might not see much progress, but I did tap a lot of holes and have drillied a few more so the thing is coming into shape. In the morning I am going to get on it in ernest and hope to have it done tomorrow.

Jerry

One of the things that you can't really see in the last two pictures is that when this trim piece is forced into the holding recess it is causing the trim piece to convex upward a little. I didn't plan on that, but don't think I am going to do anything about it. Actually I was recently observing the corresponding element in my wife's cadillac and was noticing that the console in that area was slightly convex upward. I was kind of wondering if I should be trying to have that kind of form in my lower trim piece, but decided that that was too much trouble.

However, since that seems to be what I have developed, I think I like it and will take credit for having designed that into the process from the inception. I think it looks pretty nice.

Jerry

There seems to be quite a number of members viewing this thread, so I suspect there is quite a bit of interest in what I am trying to develop. I suspect that up to this point what I have had to show you is not too different from what I did in the HOW TO thread on the development of the lower trim piece.

I kind of wonder if many of you are able to picture in your mind what I am developing for the upper ensert for this flush console conversion system that I am going to develop. I have pictures of what the machine to form the inserrt might look like, but I wonder is that is enough for you to form a mental picture of what it will look like.

What I have in mind is difficult to show you except in words since I cannot take my SD card out of my head and put it in the computer and show you the mental picutes that I have. The best I can do is try to tell you what it will look like in words; and I hope that that is not too much verbeage for most of you.

What the upper insert will look like is very similar to this lower trim piece. It will start out as a flat surface which has flanges about an inch and a half deep all around for reaching into the mounting recess of the original console. When the insert is finished it will simply end up as a trim piece for the mounting of the upper console items, but will also function as a mounting place for some of them. That's because much of this insert will be removed to provide space for the three basic elemnts it will contain.

I think the upper AC or air vent will be mounted on the new insert and so will the original HVAC controls. The Nav unit that might be installed will be mounted in the console in some kind of contraption that I will provide that both mounts the unit and beefs up the console in that area so it does not become too flexible after removing some of the origianl elements that are in the way of the new positions for stuff.

Again, I hope to have some of this new insert formed this weekend, so some pictures of that will help a lot, I think.

Jerry

Actually, I think this is a really good idea, and you should take credit for it! Lots of center consoles in recent cars have this convexity to a greater or lesser degree, and I think it looks good.

Here is a picture of the second forming machine that I promised. It doesn't show a lot of progress, except there are a lot of holes here that I have tapped and some that I drilled and counter-bored to put this together. What you see in the first picture is the near completion of the plastic holding frame for this machine. The other pictures show the first machine in its unloaded form, and a close up of the forming member that I have been slowly grinding a little bit off of the get it to form that side of the trim piece like I want.

I think today is going to be a big day because I expect to get the second forming machine done, at least up to the point of forming some plastic and then making final adjustments as I have been doing with the first machine. Right now I am over half way there and have the rest of it clearly in mind to complete without a hitch.

For those of you who have been watching this thread closely you might get some comfort in knowing that this whole project has pretty well come into focus for me, finally. What I have been dealing with here is pretty well divided into what you might think of a three phases. This first phase I am working in has to do with the development of the method and machines needed to for the two main components of this FLUSH console conversion.

Actually, I am a little bit into the second phase also with the forming, trimming, and lay-up of the lower trim piece. That phase involves just that, but with both components. In the second phase I will be developing some tooling that will be useful in trimming these components and I'll be adding some plastic here and there both to stiffen and strengthen the components, especially the upper insert, and I'll be making the cut-outs for the console items to be placed.

Also in this phase I will be developing some additional mounting pieces, especially for the centerpiece NAV unit I am designing around. Included with that will be a cage of sorts that will be installed into the console to hang the NAV unit in. With it will be a small bracket of two that will both fill in some voids in the plastic and add some lateral strength in the upper area where the plastic is going to be removed.

Another factor in this second phase will be the removal and relocation of the air vent from the top of the console to the top of the new insert. As soon as I get one of the new upper inserts formed to the right shape, at least in the upper area, I'll take my new coping saw and cut the vent out and start figuring out where and how to mount it in the insert.

The cage for the NAV unit and the little brackets to strengthen the upper console will be made out of aluminum since I am also proficient at sheet metal work and like to use aluminum where it is appropriate. These pieces will be screwed and/or glued into the console.

Finally, in the second phase, after the items are beefed up trimmed and ready to install, I'll cover them in leather.

The third and final phase of this project will be the installation of this system into a 928. Actually that is one where I am not so proficient, at least in regard to the electrical aspect of it. I can do the mechanical aspect of electrics, but am not too bright in understanding much about it. I may even have to gain some outside help in that phase of this project.

I'll let you know later about some progress today.

Jerry Feather

I got started fairly early this morning when it wasn't too hot out in the shop. It did get hot though and with the oven going and not much breeze it was really a sweat shop. I did get quite a bit done although I am not yet finished with the machine for the upper insert. I still have two latches to make, two more of the plastic hold-down bars, two cross bars for the female forming members and the two side angle pieces to form the insert sides.

Here are a couple of pictures of the progress. One shows the machine in its present state and the other I have layed out some material that I'll be working up into the next several pieces. After I take a break and maybe even a little nap I might go out and try to get about six of the remailing pieces finished.

One thing that occurs to me is that I may not know enough yet to finish the two side angle forming pieces. What I need to know is just how deep to make them form; and before I can determine that I need to decide just how the NAV unit is going to be hung in the console and especially just how I am going to fill up some or all of the gap along the lower edge of the recesses in the inside of the console where this new insert will be locking in. I'll give that some more thought and then work on that before I make the side forming angles or at least finish the bottom edges of them.

Well, I skipped the nap and went out and fabricated another couple of parts of this next machine. I made the form that will describe the upper part of the upper insert and I formed the bar that will describe the lower end of it. I burned my fingers when I grabbed a hot tool and got a little piece of aluminum shaving blown into my eye, so I quit. I'll show you some pictures of what I did tomorrow.

Jerry Feather

If Paul will sell it to me, I will buy it.

Of course, I need to get the Old Bordeaux running first.

What?

Jerry, how is your eye?

Thanks. I just picked the little curly piece of alum out of the corner. No damage.

Jerry

Time to start wearing safety glasses.

Yeh, I know. I go to the doctor about once a year and have a little piece of steel pickied out of my cornea. Jerry

Oh, yes, I'm still watching and waiting patiently for the end result....:rockon:

Thanks, Bill, for your patience. Jerry

I got four more pieces of this last machine done and have only four more to go. I made the latches for the female form frame and the upper and lower forming members. All I have to do now is the two side forming members and two more hold-down bars for the plastic frame (actually "hold-up" in this case since the plastic will be mounted to the under side of the plastic frame).

I have the side members roughed out of angle and will go out shortly and finish them up. I am going to make them kind of deep so it I decide later to put some material in the console to raise the lower inside surface, I can still cut the form members down to match. In the mean time I can make a trial run of one or two upper inserts, maybe even later this afternoon.

Here are a couple of pictures showing the machine as it is now and then with two pieces of angle laying in their approximate locations.

I don't klnow where the pictures went, but here they are again.

Now I have the two side forming members almost complete and making the two hold-up bars will not take too long, so I am getting there. Then, I remembered that I also need an additional forming member to hold the plastic into the upward curved area of the lower part of the upper insert, so I have to give that some thought. It is clear that I will not be forming plastic tonight, but perhaps tomorrow.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, GREAT WORK! Sounds like you are getting close? My 81 Euro is nearing a year long restoration and is now ready for the console update. My planning was to follow Keith's design but with a Kenwood Nav Unit above the AC and 3, 1 7/8 digital instruments clustered below the AC, eliminating the clock and ash tray. Your design fits perfectly with my vision! Although you haven't discussed the instrumentation, is it possible? My only other desire was to add circular AC Vents but that is minor. My center console out and ready to install the re-design, when you go commercial, please let me know.

Hi JC.

When I finish with this last forming machine and make the reverse male forming member for the other machine to form the lower trim piece for the 5 speed cars I will be ending up with two components that will be used to convert the center consoles to flush mount. I suppose that exactly what gets mounted in the console or in these pieces may depend a lot on individual taste and preference. However, I am designing around the original air vent at the top and the HVAC/AC-lock panels at the bottom. What I am going to put in between will be one or another of the Pioneer NAV units that are later versions of what Keith used.

I expect that Kenwood and the other NAV units are likely the same in regard to dimensions, both the size of the face that will protrude through the upper panel from behind, and the size of the chassis or body of the unit in regard to how it mounts in the console. Those two considerations I am not too sure about, however. What I may have to do is obtain some of these other units and incorporate them into my system.

On the other hand, it may become necessary to make this program, if it becomes one, into a custom-type system where you would send me your components and I would do a certain amount of the fitting, mounting, and covering here and return it all for you to install. The reason this may have to be the way to go is because the finish of my components is intended to be a leather covering, and it will not be workable for me to do the final leather covering if you are going to need to make cut-outs for additional instruments, expecially ones that might mount from behind, or you need to accomodate a different NAV unit that I haven't cut and covered to fit.

Even having someone take the basic components and then cut them to fit their instruments and such and then return them for covering will be very difficult because there needs to be an allowance in each cut-out for the thickness of the leather.

I'm not sure what the answer is going to be, but when I start more of the second phase of this project for my own cars, I think I will be getting a better idea. In the meantime it will be helpful for me to know more about the instruments you have in mind. What are they for, do they mount from the front or back, and what are the complete measurements? Also, is your 81 Euro a 5 speed or auto?

Jerry Feather

81 Euro
 

Jerry, thanks for the interest in my Shark. I am an 81 Euro, 4.7, K-Jet Automatic, I mention this only because it is often confused with the North American 81. I like your thinking about sending the console and all components to you for final fitting. My console is out and ready when you are. I have, new still in the box, a Kenwood, 7160 (chosen primarily because of the Garman Nav) 7" screen and three Prosport Digital Blue 1 7/8 instruments(Prosport.com) air/fuel ratio, clock and oil temp. These gauges match the blue LED Instrument cluster ans all are flush mounts, rear install. Also, somewhere on the console it would be ideal for a Aux Plug (cicg liter type) for cell, etc., and for the flush mount Kenwood mic (bluetooth) which is provided. However, each of these could be in a different location. Am I still within your flight plan?

Hi Again JC.

Thanks for your continued interest in my project. With the additional information you have provided I can see that the one problem we are going to have is to fit the three round by 1 7/8 inch instruments into the lower trim piece for the automatic cars. When the clock panel is moved down as Keith did and as I am doing in a new trim piece, there is not enough room for the auto shifter to fully function. I have had to make the shifter opening longer to the front of the trim piece in order for it to function, and that does not leave enough of the clock panel to put three even 45mm round gauges there.

One of your gauges could fit, but snuggly, on the left, and one on the right. Another could fit on the right also but below the other one there. Then it will be hiding behind the shifter boot.

The other problem with putting gauges in the upper area of this panel is that there is actually a lot of curvature in that part of this panel, more than in the original clock panel. I put as much in it as is needed to match the curvature of the edge of the console in that area. Therefore, some engineering will need to take place in order to get flat faced instruments of any size to look right.

Then there is also the question of mounting, which will also have to be designed, but which will be hidden in the back.

I think we can devise whatever is needed to mount your Kenwood unit in the console and have the face of it in the right location.

I am working on the development of the removal and relocation of the upper air vent. I have cut one out of a console and have devised a trimming jig to trim off the left and right edges of the vent grill in order to provide some reveal of the upper insert around it. When I get an insert formed I'll be able to do some more development of how to mount the vent assembly in the insert to match the new location of the vent grill.

Perhaps I should send you one of the new automatic lower trim pieces that I made in tuning up the forming machine, and let you mess with it a bit to see what you can come up with for placement. What do you think?

Jerry Feather

Greetings Jerry. Ero, my restoration genius has been telling me all along the 3-instrument din was going to be a problem. He proposed three possible solution: 1. leave the lower trim piece recessed, 2. relocate or reduce the size/shape of the AC vents and move everything up, or 3. move the gauges to the pilar or eliminate all together. I'm an old AV8tor and feel comfort from as many gagets and gauges as possible and the pilar post reminds me of afterthought. Obviously having the auto shift recessed is a distractor from the professional appearance that you are creating and in my opinion is the last option. However I am intrigued with the idea of minimizing the size/shape of the vents or moving them as you suggest for more facial space. Could a reduction in size provide sufficient air flow and free up desired space, or is it possible to provide a smaller vent in the upper console adjacent/adjoining to a vent in the dash? And if possible, is the cost unrealistic just to accommodate gauges? Jerry, hopefully these ideas will stimulate your creative juices. Any thoughts? Jimmy.

Jerry, Sorry for another idea but I couldn't sleep thinking about placement of AC vents and gauges. Imagine the upper console with vertical AC vents and instrumentation in between, as in some cockpits. Does this have merit? Conceptually, if the AC vents were verticle (1" W x 3.75 H) along the outer edge of the flush console there could be space in the middle for two rows of two gauges (stack of 4). Sufficient air flow could be acheived by venting out the front AND to each side (with a forward damper). Is there any space between the AC Control module and the bottom of the upper trim piece that can be captured and allocated to the AC Vent/Gauge area? Would a scale draft be worth a look? Regards, Jimmy.

[QUOTE Ero, my restoration genius has been telling me all along the 3-instrument din was going to be a problem. He proposed three possible solution: 1. leave the lower trim piece recessed, 2. relocate or reduce the size/shape of the AC vents and move everything up, or 3. move the gauges to the pilar or eliminate all together.[/QUOTE]

Hi Jimmy. Actually that is four possible solutions. What your and he are overlooking, it seems to me, is a fifth and more likely solution, and that is to simply find the gauges you want in a configuration and SIZE that will work in what I am already nearly complete in developing, at least in terms of the basics. I have redesigned the lower trim piece with as much "flattish" space as I can reasonably muster for such things as a clock, rear AC controls, power outlet, and gauges that might be found to fit there. There is also space for lites and switches that might me useful for whatever.

Jerry Feather

Jimmy, I am an old "AV8er" too and now I suppose we are later day "PV8er's." Get it?

When I was deeper into my aviation mode I rebuilt the instrument panel in my airplane including relocating the panel and building new structural members to both improve the looks and placement and to improve the structure. In the process I too found myself designing around the instruments and avionics that I had to work with, but even then I found myself looking for a couple of instruments that I needed but didn't have space for. I found one that was small and another that was configured differently that with a modification of its case could be used where I wanted it.

This current project of mine is based almost entirely on the advise I was given early in my previous HOW TO thread and that was that the ideal solution would be to develop a system that could be used to do what Keith Widom did in his one-off flush center console conversion, or words to that effect. That is almost exactly the direction I have chosen to go with this development. I am way past the early design phase of this project except in terms of minor configurations within the limits of what I am goiong to make.

Doing much or any of what you are suggesting is much more radical that I have attemped to accomplish, and there are others who are taking the more radical approach. Even they are way down the road in terms of comitting to a design and are way ahead of me in their development.

At this point, for you, I think the tail is wagging the dog, or attempting to. I still think that devoting your creative efforts to finding the right instruments is the best solution. I looked a little on-line last night and saw that there are possibilities, and maybe more in the motorcycle realm. Give it a try and see what you come up with. I am not able to change direction at this point.

Jerry Feather

In the last couple of days I have been able to finish the two side forming members and have them mounted in the machine. Last night I finished the reverse male form which will push the plastic down into the convex curvature at the lower end of the upper insert. All I have left to do is the two short plastic hold-down (OOPS, hold-up) bars for the upper and lower ends of the plastic frame and then I will get to form the first upper insert. Maybe even tonight.

Jerry Feather

:rockon:

WILCO. I will look for the gauges suggested. I'll table the far out ideas and let you concentrate on the creation. I'm still ready when you are! Anyone interested in 3 really nice Prosport Digital Blue gauges? Jimmy.

Great, Jimmy. That's the spirit. I'll be real interested in what you might find. I am sure there are others who are interested in more than a clock in the lower trim panel, so what you come up with will be good for everyone.

I have the first pull of the upper insert cooling as I write. It was a bitch to force into position even with the forming temperature much higher that I was shooting for. Dinner put me off a little and it got away from me. Nevertheless I think I am going to have to have some clamping force to make these inserts. No big deal. Its just nice to know.

I'll post some pictures when I get the insert removed from the machine and we can see what we have.

Stand-by.

By the way, Jimmy. I like "wilco." It is old fashioned, probably like you and me, but still means so much.

Jerry Feather

I got the first of the upper inserts formed and it looks pretty close to what I need. It has some need for adjustment, but I think that is built into the machine and after I make another one I'll trim one out and see how close it comes to the console.

Here are three pictures of the first pull.

As I am sitting here waiting for the second one to cook I took this pictures of roughly what the two items kind of look like together.

Well, this is a long way form the end, but this is what both of the pieces I have formed look like installed, sort of, in the console. The contours appear reasonably close to the console and the gap around the edges and between is about right for leather, so I think we are getting close. What do you think?

Jerry Feather

Wow. You would think this was stock from Porcshe if one had not followed your progress here on Renn. Really nice work Mr. Feather, I think I smell an old A&P mechanic with this project.....!
I'm officially a fan.

Jerry, I think it is MAGNIFICENT! What's next, and have you a timeline?

Jimmy.

I'm guessing from WILCO, your AV8ing days were VF/VM. Am I close?

lookin good!!

Hi Jimmy. I was an air transport navigator during the Viet Nam era. I have been a pilot since l980. I have about 7500 hours total, most of it navigating, but about 2500 flying my own airplane.

For you. Alex, no I am not an A&P, but I do all of my own aircraft maintenance, "under supervision."

For all, What I have to do next is make another trimming jig to make the cut-outs in this new upper insert for the three major items, the air vent at the top, the NAV in the middle and the HVAC at the bottom. What I want to do is build a jig that I can simply put one of these in the with a trimming guide and guide on my router, cut out the openings.

I will be removing about 80 percent of this upper insert and then putting back about 30 or lthose percents in additional beef-up plastic both for rigidity and for mounting the air vent and the HVAC units. There will also be some beef up around the opening for the NAV unit, but it will be mounted in the console.

I have to design and fabricate a cage or rack for the NAV unit to mount in the console, but that will be made out aluminum sheet. With all of that I may want to design and build some kind of jig to cut openings in the lower trim panel for my clocks in one place or another. I may just do that by hand. However, if there is any kind of common desire from others, the jig will be the way to go.

What I am going to do next is the trimming jig and start mocking up one or two of these with leather covering so you can all get the idea of what we are going to end up with.

Time line is anytime after now. In fact, I could theoretically start now with one of these and fab it up to put in a car, but then it will be too much like a one-off which is what I am trying to avoid. It really needs to be duplicatable.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, would it be worthwhile to send you the Kenwood specs for comparison before you finalize a jig? Also the 7160 comes with a cage, but not sure that is what you need. I can overnight both. Or if time permits I might just bring them personally, what's the driving time from Stapleton? Does Walker have commercial service? Better yet, why don't you come on down here and go fish'in with the old Tailhooker? Jimmy.

WOW! Those are all great ideas, Jimmy. Maybe we can do most of them in some kind of sequence. What I anticipate is making a trimming jig that will use different guides for different brand NAV units. However, it may turn out that the front protrusion of them all is the same, except, I think, for the amount of protusion, which I noticed on the Kenwood is deeper than on the Pioneer units. That can be made up with a spacer cut to the same opening as the upper insert.

It might still be helpful to have the Kenwood unit in order to make a rack if that needs to be different from the Pioneer.

It would be great you have you here and you would be very welcome to come and stay and we could work on your installation. Stapleton is no longer an airport, but they have DIA instead. Walker Field is now Grand Junction Regional, I tnink, and they do have commercial service. In fact I live only about a half mile from the airport.

Driving time from DIA is about 4 hours or so on I70. My house is within earshot of I70 off exit 31.

I have been to Florida only about once, but coming there would also be nice. Let's keep that option open also.

Hi again Jimmy. "Tailhooker" tell a lot about your aviation career. Did you know that North American Aviation, who designed and built many of my type of airplane, the NaVion, had some idea to put a tailhook on it? I actually saw a copy of the factory drawings for installation of a tailhook on a NaVion. I think they were hoping to sell the Navy some of them. The Army bought a bunch and they were known as the L-17. I don't know what the Navy designation would have been.

Jerry

Jimmy, in the meantime why don't you send me the measurements of your Kenwood unit. I would like to have the exact measurements of the face of the unit that would be visible from the front, not including any kind of trim that may have come with it. I need the width, height and depth of the face.

Then I would like the measurements of the body of the unit, not including the face. I need the width, height and depth of the basic body, not including any screw heads or connections or fans and such on the back.

I'll compare that with my Pioneer units and see how much flexibility I will need in my rack design idea.

Jerry

If anyone else has jumped out ahead of this project and obtained any other kind of Double DIN Nav/etc. unit that is anticipated for this system, I would be interested to know what direction others are going with it and what the same dimensions are for other units that might want to come into play. Thanks.

Jerry Feather

Wow, this is turning out very nicely.
As an aside, my consideration is different.
Am eliminating radio, HVAC system, clock and ashtray on a USA 84 that has been deeply scarred.
It has all-new mechanical / suspension parts, though, and is being refreshed anyway.
But not the luxury features, just basics.
Carpeting is installed, but no sound deadening, for instance. No cruise, no duct work actuators. Will get simple on/off heat valve and retain variable speed fan.
Panel would be used plain or to hold gauges as required.

I have a double din, and im looking at adding two gauges where the ash tray was.

Porsche Double DIN
 

Why not use something factory from Porsche? This head unit or something a bit earlier?

Attachment 464738

Probably because it would be way to expensive and harder to hook up

Hi Ducman. I see that you have a five speed, so if your interests are for this system for that car, I think there will be space in the new "clock Panel" which is going to be located about where the ashtray was before. With the five speed version of the lower insert, I think theer might be enough space for a couple or even three (if not too big) instruments .

Tell me about the two instruments you have in mind and what are the dimensions or specs on your double DIN Unit?

Jerry Feather

Hi Bronco. Nice picture of some kind of Porsche center console. Not surprising is looks almost as nice as what I am trying to develop for you 928 guys and gals. It has a little more bling than I think we are acustom to, but otherwise it seems to carry the same theme.

Ducman pretty much answers the question, don't you think? On the other hand, if the dimensions are within the limits of what I am developing, why not!!!!

Jerry Feather

here is a picture of my double DIN Alpine unit. The Gauges i plan on using are Innovative AF gauge and a Fuel Pressure gauge, they would be 2 1/16 standard gauges.

Thanks, Ducman, for the pictures. They really tell a lot.

If you are going to be interested in the system that If am developing for your project here is what you are going to do.

First, your will be cutting the air vent out of the console, because it will get mounted in the upper insert that I am going to be making. Then you will be having me trim the vent grill down on the ends in the trim gig I have made so it provides some reveal around the edges when it is mounted in the insert.

Next, you will be remounting the HVAC units in the upper insert down quite a bit from where they are now in the console. When those two events take place there is going to be space in the middle of the insert to remount your double din unit. It is going to be mounted in the console in some kind of set-up that your or I are going to have to devise.

Finally, in regard to the lower trim piece I am going to make, I suggest that you look for some better looking instruments that 2 1/16. They are just too big for this conversion, although they might actually fit. I suggest you look at the 1 7/8 inch round instruments that I am talking Jimmy out of using. They wont fit in the automatic trim piece, but will in the 5 speed trim piece. Even those are a little gaudy, for my taste, but a lot better than 2 1/16.

Even with any of these round instruments, there is going to be some fudging in regard to mounting them since they are going to be put into a surface that has quite a bit of curvature in it--moreso than most of you guys seem to think.

When all of the mounting is determined, then the insert and trim, piece will need to be covered in leather. Is your console color black or dark blue? It looks dark blue in the pictures, but that is sometimes just the image.

Just food for thought.

Jerry Feather

great food for thought! NOM NOM NOM! (brain is happy). im not dead set on the gauges so changing them is not a problem. i just had that center console redone by Robb in Black leather, and getting him to do that trim would be no problem. the only thing that i can think of as a hang up, is on the older Hvac vaccum hoses and the hard "line" for the vent door not having enough slack to bring it out. but building it should be fun, and i am for sure game!

Jerry; Finally opened the Kenwood box to get the requested measurements and to my suprise there is no spec sheet. The only dimention listed is on the outer box which states the touch screen is 6.95" Wide. Another feature to factor is the face of this unit will pitch (up and down) and roll (left and right) about 10-15° to allow for better viewing angles. My rule shows the following measurments: Face: 6 7/8 - W; 3¾ - H; ½ - D. (Note: the depth is difficult to determine because it ships from the factory with the face setting piched forward.) Box minus face: 7 - W; 4 - H; 6½ - D. If you need to feel and touch just let me know and I'll get it to you. For the record, the prosport gauges are 1 7/8 but mounted with the bezel are actuallu 2 1/16. Its looking like the Auto guys will come in last for gauges unless you come up with more magic! Let me know what you need. Jimmy.

I am away from home and the shop for three days of continuing "machine trades" education, so I will not be posting anything about progress on the flush conversion until after I get back. This training is boring, but on the way here and during the first half day of training I have been able to develop some minor modifications in the upper insert component of the conversion, but still using the original components in the conversion. When I get home and can make further hands-on development of the new ideas, I'll pass some of it along. It will help solve one of the minor troubling aspects of what I have originally had in mind, particualrly in relation to the placement of the HVAC and AC/LOCK panel at the bottom of the upper insert. I think some of you will like what I think I have come up with.

Jerry Feather

One of the things I thought I would try to accomplish in the FLUSH Console System was to try to eliminate some of the seams, joints, and gaps that are inherent in doing this conversion as a one-off using the original components and modifying the original trim pieces.

One of the places I had not yet been able to accomplish that has to do with relocating the HVAC control head and the AC/lock panel to below the location for the new NAV unit. In fact, as I have been developing this System I find that I have been in effect adding another joint.

In the original console the HVAC and AC/lock panels are nested together in such a way as to effectively "hide" their joint; and the bottom edge of the AC/lock panel is rounded inward and simply "dies" into the original single DIN opening. Therefore that joint is also minimized and is still only one joint.

By moving these two nested compontnts to below the new double DIN space, I found that they can be nested together a tiny bit more tightly in front by angling their respective bodies slightly apart in back with a small plastic spacer, perhaps, and fabricating their mounting location to accomodate this angle. In addition, because of the curvature at the lower end of the upper insert, this new nesting configuration fits much better in regard to the face of the insert.

By virtrue of the nature of the System I am developing there is a joint between the lower trim piece and the upper insert. That does not add a joint since there alreeady is one between the original clock panel and the single DIN location for the radio. From a joint reduction standpoint the ideal way to relocate the two subject items would be to place them together at the bottom of the new upper insert is such a way that the bottom edge or surface of the AC/lock panel becomes the bottom edge of the upper insert. The problem with that is that I have a strong reluctance to remove the bottom edge, rim or flange to the upper insert, mainly from a strength and integrity standpoint.

Part II to follow:

Part II:

If the upper insert was intended solely as a contiguous trim piece, I suppose cutting the botton out would be ok. However, since I am designing this piece to both mount these two pieces and the upper air vent and to end up trimming around all of what is in the upper insert area, I feel the the strength and rigidity of this insert are important.

In addition, esthetics comes into play for me and I have a strong desire to have at least a narrow strip of trim going across the lower edge of the upper insert. That is also reflected in the thin strip of trim that I am putting across the top of this upper insert above the air vent grill which does not exist in the original installation.

It may be that I am doing all of this emphasis on trim, relief, or reveal simply as a means to place more emphasis on what I am creating, but I guess I just can't help myself. I think it is going to look the way I want it t o look in the end.

This brings me to the real point of this multi-part post, and that is to tell about the idea I recently had about what to actually do at the bottom of the upper insert.

The thing that has been bothering me about this relocation of these two components is that I simply don't like the shape of the face of the AC/lock panel, in spite of the careful way it nests up to the bottom of the HVAC control panel face.

You will notice that the face of the HVAC is a nice rectangle with rounded corners. When I finish with the air vent grill above, it is going to have a very similar shape but and little narrower than the original.

I occurs to me that the best appearance of the upper insert would be to mount the air vent grill above with a nice consistent reveal of trim around it and then do the same thing with the HVAC below the double DIN. Then I had to ponder what to do with the little narrower AC/lock panel.

More in Part III to follow.

:corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn:

Part III:

I found that the face of the AC/lock panel can be removed by taking out four tiny screws in the back. When I do so I discovered that the AC switch on the left is essentially completely seperate from the the rest of the panel functions at least from an electrical standpoint.

I also discovered that there are actually three components of what is left--the hazard/failure switch/lite on th left, the door lock switch/lite on the right, and, to my surprise, a seat belt warning lite/indication in between, which I didn't realize was even there. I always wondered why there was sucn an apparent large blank black space in that location.

My first thought, before finding the seat belt indicator, was that this little panel might be mounted in the upper insert without its face plate. The discovery of the seat belt indicator sort of interferred with that approach. Another problem I saw was the the depth of the hazard and lock lites/switches was possibly too shallow to work effectively if recessed behind one layer of plastic and possibly two layers of leather covering.

In any case, I really like this new idea of putting this panel at the bottom of the upper insert, and without its face plate. I'm going to try to mock this up in some way to see just how it might work. I think I will try to form or find some kind of lenses for the seat belt lites to show through and refine the two other lite/switch openings so that they remain visible and functional even though they are going to end up slightly recessed when I do it.

How I might be able to do it in Part IV:

Part IV:

Actually, the more I think about this new idea, the more it develops. One thought I had was to skive the leather some in this area of the insert in order to reduce the impact of the thickness and to enhanse the formability of the leather into and around the openings for the controls; then I considered grinding the underside of the plastic in this area, which is fairly well curved, to a flat surface which will both provide a flat surface for mounting and to add to the need for thinness here; and, finally, if more seems to be needed I might make a little set of forming dies and with them and a heat gun, form a kind of thumbnail indent at the the left and right sides of each of the two lite/switches, not including the AC switch, which protrudes sufficiently, both activated and deactivated, to not need depth minimization.,

Boy, is that a mouthfull!!

End of this discussioin. More later about some other general considerations.

Jerry Feather

that is a lot of info to think about for sure! The only issue i can see is moving the AC/Heater control head much farther then where it is now due to vacuum and mechanical link to the vent flap. but i love the idea of the slight "tilt" where the AC button- seat belt light, and the control head go. :-)

Ducman, You mentioned that before about vacuum lines and mechanical linkage to the HVAC control head. However, on the ones I have for the later cars, and I am not sure how later, there are only electrical connections--no vacuum lines or mechanical connections.

If there are such on the earlier control heads, that may very well be a limitation of this System that I am developing.

Are there such things on the earlier control heads? How early are we talking about? Does anyone know?

Jerry Feather

mine is an 81, and i no it does for sure. you do have some play in it. im sure splicing in the lines to make them longer would work, along with the mech cable. sorry if i double posted... :-(

The vaccum lines go into the acuators located behind the right side panel. Then electrical connections come off of that into the head unit. I don't think any years have the vacuum lines go directly into the head unit.

here is a picture of vacuum connections on the back of the control head.

Those might be on the back side of something, but it does not look to me like the back side of the control head that I am going to move to the lower part of th center console.

if you look thats the vent/heater/ control unit above the radio cage. i went out and played a little, i think there will be room to move it down in the new design.

In case you couldn't notice, the foregoing four part post(s) was/were part of the result of what I was writing in the recent contunuing education I previously mentioned which I am sure others thought was my taking of feverish notes about what was being presented, but which in fact was what I was writing about this project while absorbing what was being taught with the other side of my brain. I seem to get the most out of things when they are done in conjunction with something else.

Jerry Feather

The rest of what I had to write about this during the recent training is:

When I developed the tooling to form the lower trim piece I focused primarily on having the piece form to match very closely to the lower surface of the console recess. This surface is very consistent in terms of its part in defining the groove or sideways recess that the original trim piece snaps into and which the corresponding "snap material" on this new trim piece will, and does, snap into.

There is a significant difference found in the botton surface of the console recess as found in the part of the sonsole where the new upper insert will reside. In this upper area there is a continuation of the snap-in sideways recess, but for the most part here there is an almost total lack of consistent definition of the lower surface.

As a result of this I have found myself developing the tooling to form the upper insert "down to" a more or less hypothetical place where I think the lower surface will be built up to, particularly in developing the mounting for the double DIN Nav units we all anticipate installing in this conversion. In doing so I am trying to end up with a continuation of the same width of sideways recess as in the lower trim area and the corresponding same width of snap-in part of the upper insert after the additional material is glued onto the sides of the upper insert. By width I mean from top to bottom and not from side to side, which in this case would be thickness.

One of the objectives in building up the lower surface of the central recess of the upper console will also include replacement of the crossways rigidity that is going to be removed in relocating the air vent and other upper components.

One of the replacements will be a fairly heavy aluminum sheet item made the fit into the upper original mounting space for the HVAC and AC/lock panels. It will be made of 090 sheet and made to fill the deepest part of the recess surface including perhaps screwing into the original screw holes, or what is left of them and incorporating a crossmember, bent at a right angle downward that essentially replaces the botton plastic crossmember part of the upper air vent that is going to get cut out with relocating of the vent to the insert.

Below that there will be some additional crossmember support, but which will be made up of the rack or cage that I am going to develop to mount the NAV units in the console. More about that when I get closer to it.

Jerry Feather

Take control of the entire console, then.

Design it all.

Well, let me see, I have redesigned and fabricated the lower trim piece which takes up about 45 percent of the center console spacen not including the window switches sunrood switch and rear wiper switch, but which does include the clock, elinination of the ashtray, the rear AC controls, if you have them and possible other gauges; and I Have now redesigned the upper area of the center console which take up about the other 55 percent of that area and includes the upper vent, the radio area the climate controls and the AC/door lock panel.

What have I left out?

Jerry Feather

Nevermind! I figured it out. I have not included the little vent for the interior air temperature. I left it out because it is already flush mounted.

Jerry

Or I could have said "Gosh! If I did that, that would be RADICAL!!"

Jerry

Seriously, Landseer, I would really hate to go through around 400 posts in this thread and over 20,000 views and leave something like the door lock function or something else of significance out.

Jerry

Jerry, welcome back. I like your thinking! Am I beginning to see this new arrangement to allow more space somewhere for us gauge guys? Or are we still headed for the ditch? Also, I think Ducman is correct about vacuum to the control head, I'll drop by the garage tomorrow and take some pics of the HVAC unit in my 81 Euro. Jimmy.

Thanks for your input, Jimmy. The front of Ducman's HVAC control head looks an awful lot like the later ones, so I have my doubts about how different the back of it is. I seem to recall seeing earlier heads for sale on eBay and don't recall them looking much different than mine. Nevertheless, your help in clearing this up will be appreciated.

As to the overall conversion, there is only a limited amount of space for the items I am trying to work with. Even Hans, doing the radical redesign, is not providing any more space for gauges. In the upper insert area of my conversion I am essentially using up the clock panel space in order to add the extra DIN to obtain double DIN for the NAV Unit.

In the lower area I am actually providing more space than most any other conversion would provide, and that is the area around the shifters that I am raising to flush and exposing by reducing the shifter boot base substantially. I am eliminating the ashtray and that space is being made available to replace the clock panel, but is also available for gauges, Even then, as we have discussed before, you are going to have to become a real scavenger in order to locate the kind of gauges that will fit since the 2 inch round gauges are going to be of very limited application in this conversion.

In short, the round gauges are headed for the ditch, but I don't think that is the end of the story for you gauge guys.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, I could not import the pics but the AC Control Unit in my 81 Euro does not have vacuum. The only thing visable are two ¾" wiring bundles entering the left and right rear of the unit.

I'm still in the hunt for gauges and my last thought to save the Prosports is to send them for your examination. I don't want to interfere with your creative time but could you spare a quick minute for a determination? If they don't fly, then it's the ditch. Jimmy.

Jimmy, I think your persistence is producing a favorable result. I guess my brain cannot resist a challenge and has apparently been working on this gauge issue behind my back. While I was looking online for your gauges (which I cannot find, by the way) I did find one version of Prosport gauges that are 1 3/4 inch across and are said to fit into one DIN space or panel. Then it occurred to me how something like that can be put into the system I am developing.

My brain has gone back to an idea I had while developing the first forming machine in the HOW TO thread, and which I may have even mentioned there, but which I have later chosen to ignor, and that is to bond these two pieces I am forming into one insert, mounting everything in the result and into the console and then installing it as one unit.

I think if we do that, we will have a little more space above the shifter and below the relocated HVAC and AC/lock panels if they are moved up a little bit and if the double DIN Nav unit is also squeezed up a tiny bit. I have been allowing perhaps an extra quarter inch of space above and below the Nav unit for esthetics, mostly, and for any differences in units we find. That extra space, together with the extra space that will be provided at the joint itself, about 3/16 of an inch, may allow us to put your three gauges across there, perhaps by staggering them a little with the middle one slightly higher. This will require us to cut into the joint, but I don't think that will cause any problem.

The downside to joining these two panels is that although it will install nicely, I think, it is probably going to be a bitch to remove as one piece.

What do you think? Are your gauges considered 52 mm or 45mm?

Jerry Feather

P.S. I did dome measuring and find that there may be about a quarter of an inch gained by scunching everything upward in the upper insert, but perhaps another quarter inch gained at the joint of the two panels. That may still be just enough to put your gauges in, Jimmy.

Jerry

Nice work Jerry. Very good project. I would like one of these for my car as well. After the mechanical of course.

Jerry, you are rapidly becomming my HERO! I'm in for the single piece and will accept a fight if/when it has to be removed. I also think the single insert will add to the astethics and "factory" look. My gauges are listed as 52mm but that includes the bezel, which I think can be mounted without and then they become about 45mm. I will get an exact measurment today. The web is Prosportgauges.com, and the three I have are from the Digital Series: Clock (Blue), Oil Temp and Wideband Air/Fuel. I believe these are the perfect compliment to your system and the Nav units in that the presentations are very similar, black when off and vivid colors when in use. Now I understand why Navigators were renamed Engineers! Check is in the mail when you're ready. Jimmy.

PS: I remember the Navion, the sliding canopy reminded me of the Phantom. Very roomie and confortable (the Navion) can't recall one in the Navy's inventory. I have mucho time (many moons ago) in the Buckeye so I know that North American aircraft were made to last. Didn't Ryan or someone make a twin version?

On the Navion, Jimmy, North American built about 1100 up to 1947 then sold to Ryan who made another 1200 or so ending in 1951. Later Riley-Temco made a Twin Navion and Camron Iron Works made a different twin conversion called a Camair. Both twin conversion were made from single engine airframes, and no additional airframes were created with the twin although both are on seperate type certificates.

I think upwards to about 300 additional single engine Navions were built in the 60's and 70's called a Rangemaster. They had a door and no sliding canopy.

The Navy didn't buy any. Ryan, I think, made what might have becone the Navion C as a proposal for the Navy's requirement for what was filled by the T-34 from Beech. Obviously the Navion did not win the competition and contract. Nevertheless I guess there was a lot of expectation which was probably what gave rise the the tail hook design. I think there were two prototypes of the C built for the competition. I think someone is restoring one of them.

Thanks for your continued input.

Jerry Feather

P.S. Just to keep this on thread, I would point out that the Navion world is a whole lot like the 928 world in so many ways.

Thanks, Jerry, for bringing me up to date.

Last I heard, you were making inserts.

Now, you are making the entire console, which I need.

Don't need the HVAC insert.

Just what it, and the inserts, mount to.

Well, and the inserts, too!

No Navion. No Carputer. No Garmin.

Just upgrades to the Porsche parts I can mount my radios and gauges to.

Landseer:

Now you need the entire console and now you need just the parts you can mount your radios and gauges to. I guess I don't have a clue about what your are talking about.

Please review this thread and then you will get a better idea about just what I am trying to create. If that is going to be of some use to you I will be happy to hear about just what your particular needs are. If you need a complete console I suggest you contact 928 International or some of the other vendors of used 928 parts or watch eBay. I just bought one on eBay for a reasonable price. I am NOT going to replicate the "whole console!!!"

Jerry Feather

Hi Landseer. I thought I would respond more specifically to your quoted post.

You heard I was making inserts? Yes I am making inserts, but the lower of them I have been continuously calling the lower trim piece. The upper of them I am actually calling the upper insert.

Now I am making the entire console??? Where did you get that. I am not making the whole console. You need one? So what happened to the one you were supplied with with your 928? Why do you need a whole console? You will need to find a whole original console someplace beside from me.

You don't need the HVAC insert? That is good because I have no idea what the HVAC insert is. Are you talking about the HVAC control head?? I would expect that you do not need one of those, but that is not an insert--it is a control panel or control head.

Just what it and the inserts mount to??? The insert for the upper area of the center console is what the HVAC mounts to. The Upper Insert mounts to the center console. The HVAC will mount to the upper insert. Are you paying attention or what????

Well, and the inserts too???? What???

I understand that you do not have an airplane, a carputer or a double
DIN nav unit.

Just what is it that you do have that will need something from this system of FLUSH mounted center console conversion that I am trying to deveolp with some input from you guys who might be interested is the prospective conversion???????????

Jerry Feather

Jerry, I'm sad to report the ditch witch was flying today! The Prosport digital gauge bezels are not removable, or at least I don't see a way. This leaves us with the actual measurment for each gauge of 2.255 inches. I think I'm beginning to get the picture that the auto guys are not destine for a 3 gauge din. I do appreciate your effort to squeeze things closer so that we might have a shot at 2 gauges or at least one. The 45mm gauges that I have found are not digital and the Prosports 45's are only available with amber backlighting. Not a bad presentation except I have converted my instrument cluster to blue leds. Keep steady on the creation and I'll try not to interrupt further. Jimmy.

Jimmy, What about converting the Prosport 45's to blue lighting. I think you can find different color led's and some instrument shop can probably take then apart and change them for you.

Here is how 1 3/4 inch (45mm) gauges might look in the bonded configuration we discussed, with some reasonable spacing.

Jerry

Now who's persistant! I love the way your mind works. Prosports is headquartered in St Petersburg and I have placed a call to see if they can help. Will also do another search for 45mm gauges. Am I correct the seam shown in this picture will be eliminated with the continuous insert? If so, this will be a creation of beauty! Jimmy.

Right, Jimmy, the joint between the two inserts would be bonded, actually with a spacer in between, I think, to take up for the lack of two layers of leather that will otherwise be there. The material that is there in the flanges will remain, but some will have to be cut away in the event of placing one or more of the gauges there. There is going to be only about a quarter inch of space from the bonded joint to the bottom edge of the next panel installed above the joint, so don't count on much flexibility in terms of placement of gauges in this area. That quarter inch of space plus the joint itself, of about another quarter inch, is all the space we are going to have to work with.

Jerry

If you have the gauges low like that, you will also have to contend with glare. Sort of like when you leave your phone by the shifter and as you take a turn, you get blinded.

Actually I think the Double DIN Nav/etc. is going to command much more attention the the clock,oil temp, and fuel/air gauges, at least for Jimmy, since that is what he is planning on. What other gauges are there to put in the conter console that might require so much attention that are not already in the instrument cluster?

Jerry Feather

you have to be careful trying to move the HVAC too low, the head unit needs plenty of space in the back.

The HVAC location in the system I am developing is going to be placed just about exactly where Keith Widom put his in what I think is the original flush console conversion. It appears to me to fit there.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, I went to the shop today and placed the actual 52mm Prosport gauges in the area as shown in your last picture. My experiment: I mounted the gauges on cardboard to simulate a single din and placed them in the location of the ash tray of the existing console's recess piece. The crude experiment has at least three variables, 1) the actual width because I used the recessed insert vs the unknown width of your flush lower unit, 2) the existing curvature in this area vs the curvature of your masterpiece, and 3) the forward travel of the automatic shift leaver in your lower piece. Assuming these variables can be mitigated, I believe the results are: A) Gauge depth (1.50) appears sufficient. B) As you have said all along, 3 gauges (in tandum and offset) overlapped by a few mm, i.e., they don't fit! C) There appears to be sufficient mounting area for 2 gauges. D) The location is not ideal for gauges but is acceptable considering the alternatives. Reflective glare (indoors) could not be evaluated. This was not to question your expertise but moreso to visualize the placement and appearance of 2 gauges. Bottom line: I'm a happy camper and eagerly await your next update. Let's go fish'in (when you're finished), Jimmy.

Is there sufficient gap around the fitting edges to allow for skinning it in vinyl or leather to match the factory interior, instead of the ugly plastic?

Have you tested the piece in a factory-leather console to make sure the piece fits? (factory leather is applied over the standard vinyl console so the inset area may be slightly smaller?)

Hi Hilton, There is sufficient gap designed in these pieces for them to be covered with leather. The grain of the leather will be kind of pot luck in respect to matching the simulated leaher grain in the cast plastic or vinyl console bodies. I think acceptance of that potential contrast is fairly common.

No, I have not tested these pieces in a factory or other leather covered console. In fact this concern only came to me the other day when ducman, I think, posted a picture of his console covered in leather by Rob Budd. Now I am concerned that the gap I have allowed may be taken up already in those cases. So far, the only solution to that potential problem may be to skive the leather around the edges of my pieces. However, I will have to wait until I can confront such a console, because I don't have one at this point, or until I can create one myself to work with.

Jerry Feather

Ok thanks - getting the grain to match factory leather isn't too hard locally.. there's a trimmer who carries Porsche leather near me and who has done a few of the local 928's (he'll be doing my dash soon, as it needs recovering due to leather shrinkage).

The fit in a leather console isn't too critical - can also plane off enough plastic to allow fitment. I'm just thinking ahead as the flush console is the second best internal mod I've seen (first being a pair of Paul's seats).

Every now and then I check on-line for some miniature gauges that might work for the gauge guys in this project. I find some 1 1/2 inch instruments, but not necessarily the kind of indication that might be desired. I think if we keep looking, we will find dome gauges that can be used with the automatic Trans version of this console conversion, or find someone that might make some for us.

Jerry

I have not been working in the shop on this project for the last few days, but I have been studying what I have produced so far just to see how close to finised we are getting. One of the things that I have noticed is that at the point that these lower trim piece joins with the upper insert, although I am forming each against a very straight form, the resulting plastic piece is having a slight curvature at the corners that is leaving a small gap between the two pieces when placed together. The gap at the corners is a little over a 16th of an inch total, but only about a half inch long. I think it is the result of the plastic simply forming thinner at the corners.

What I did was take the body of the upper insert form out and machine the mating end of it in such a way the it will form with a shape that will hopefully adjust for this gap. I also made some minor changes in the side forms and then moved the rounded end form down a little and took out its spacing washers so it will for form closer to the basic body.

I have one cooling now after cooking and will see tomorrow how much better it is.

Jerry Feather

What I have to do next is complete the trimming jig for the air vent grill. I have made a trimming guide for it , but have to mount it in a flat surface with an opening in it that lets me put the grill in the guide and then run my router around the ends of the grill trimming them down to the narrower shape that I want for later installation in the upper insert that I am making. I am planning on doing this in order to have some reveal of plastic or leather around the grill that will not otherwise be visible with the grill in its original form.

When I get one trimmed, I'll try to mock it up in one of the formed upper inserts, maybe with some leather covering, to show what I have in mind.

Jerry Feather

I finished the guide I made for trimming the upper air vent grill. I used it on one of the spare grillis I have and find that it does just what I want. Here are some pictures.

What I want to do with the grill is trim it down a little on the ends because I am not going to use its mounting tits to hold it in since I don't think they will either line up with the vent or maybe not even reach the vent in this conversion. The other reason is that I want the upper insert to be filling the console recess rather than the grill, so I think I need to provide a little more reveal of the new insert around the grill.

The first picture is the completed trim guide.

The second is the grill in place.

Third is the router in place to do the trimming.

Fourth is the grill trimmed,

Fifth is a close-up of the end of the grill trimmed.

Jerry

Here are a couple more pictures of the grill before and after trimming just to show the comparison. The last of these pictures shows the next step in this project and that is to make a different kind of trimming guide that will be used to cut the holes in the front of the upper insert.

Here I have the upper air vent hole and the lower HVAC control holes cut, except that the air vent hole is not quite to dimension yet. I stopped here so I can decide if I want to make the last cut off the upper edge or the lower edge. I'm not sure at this point because it may depend on where the vent itself has to be placed in the upper insert. When I decide I'll finish that cut, and then I have to make a box or wood frame to mount this guide to in which I can place the upper insert in for trimming.

This trimming guide will be based on a router with a guide around the bit whereas the other trimming guide I show above is based on a router with a wheel or roller bearing on the end of the bit.

The blank space in between the two openings I have cut is where the NAV unit will rest. I will probably make a seperate guide for cutting that opening so I wont have to balance the router on too narrow of a surface for the trimming.

Jerry

I made a frame out of plywood to mount the trimming guide to and have it screwed together with the guide. Now I need to find a trim rounter with the right threaded base to mount the trim guides I bought at Harbor Freight to to use for trimming the holes needed it the upper insert.

When I am able to get some of that accomplished and I can have some of these trim pieces at least mocked up for you to see, I'll try to post an update. Otherwise I think this fabricating detail is getting kind of old.

Jerry

Jerry, great work! Fantastic read, better than a mystery novel. Push forward with the details and pics! Jimmy.

I coundn't find the kind of router that I thought I needed. It thurns out that the router guides I bought have a screw ring to hold the guide in place and the router does not have threads. Nevertheless, all the routers have a bigger hole in the base for the bit, so I had to make a new base for one of my trim routers to accomodate the trim guide.

I got that done and set the trim jig up and tried to trim the upper and lower holes in one of the upper inserts. The first one failed with the router grabbing it and tearing it all to heck. Then I changed my method and had a little better luck with the second one. I still need to change the guide and bit from half inch to 3/8 inch which will reduce the amoung of "grab" and will help some, I think.

These pictures show less progress than I had hoped to show. I was going to try to get this insert covered with leather before I posted this progress, but I find that when the holes are cut out the insert becomes very flimsy.

In order to mount the components in the insert, upper and lower, and prepare the next hole in the middle where the NAV will go I am going to glue some fairly heavy plastic inside the insert. That is not a new twist in the design, since I have been planning it all along. I have just not been sure how heavy the extra plastic will need to be.

What I think it is going to require is 1/4 inch for mounting the vent in the upper end, 3/16 for the mid area for the NAV, and 1/8 inch for the lower part for the HVAC and AC/lock panels.

In these pictures I don't have the AC/lock panel in place because in order to mount that component I am going to have to grind the mounting tabs nearly off in order for it to fit within the insert. Then I am going to have to figure out how I am going to mount it.

Actually, aside from the plastic cited above there is also going to be some heavier plastic glued in for the mounting of the lower pieces--that plastic mentioned is just for the spacing of the face of the components.

By the way, I discovered that in cutting the air vent out of the console I cut too much of it away. The problem is that I discovered that part of the air vent is where the upper end of the console mounts to the dash. In the one I am working with the mounting holes were both broken out, so I didn't realize that. What I am going to do is design a different place to cut and then fill in that area with extra plastic when the vent is mounted in the insert. For this one, which will probably never be used in a car, I could make some new mounting points out of aluminum and glue them in, if needed.

DUDE!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Actually it makes the stock HVAC controls look pretty sad. I wonder if there's a way to clean those up or refresh them.

Hi Mike. I'm sure that a tooth brush, some prep-all, and a rag will do wonders with this one. Part of the problem is the contrast with the very glossy plastic I'm using and the relative flat finish to the HVAC. When this insert is covered in leather, whatever the color, (and the thing is cleaned up) I'm sure it will look a lot better. Thanks for your input.

Jerry

Gotcha. Yeah, it's just like anything else. Get a new steering wheel and the dash looks like crap. New seats and the carpets look dingy...


Thanks for doing this. I'm really looking forward to hearing about availability.

Way cool! I'm loving every update, this is just great stuff! Keep em coming!

Thanks Tom. By the way, I think someone kind of suggested that what I had to say about the color of you car might have been insulting. Actually my 11 year old daughter really does like it; and I would not be surprised to find myself in a few years painting one of my 928s for her in just that color. Jerry

For the lack of a better word: This is "affengeil"!!!

Nicole, I'm sure you mean wicked/ horny / awesome ...as opposed to affen geil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7XuvGDdFow

Sorry I haven't had some pictures and updates on this project the last few days. I had to take some time to make some Spare Tire Covers so I would have some money to buy another sheet of plastic for these console conversion components. I seem to be cooking several and then tearing them up a little getting the trimming jigs to work correctly.

I still don't have any worthwhile pictures because I seem to be in the middle of several things at one time with this effort. I'm just about complete with the trimming jigs for the front openings and I am calculating and cutting material to put the inside doubler material in. I am still not sure just how thick to make some of that, and wont be able to make a final determination on that until I get one or more of these covered in leather.

After I made the trim jig for the NAV opening I was a little surprised at just how little material was going to be left between the components. I think I am going to have to move the upper vent up a little and the lower HVAC components down to their extreme so that the space between then and the NAV is not so narrow and therefore flimsy.

I am also working on the design of the NAV rack and cut some material tonight for that. I think I will make a drawing of the pattern for those and then make it out of heavier plate or sheet to use as a master so I wont have to lay out the lines and holes on each one. I am going to have to make some tooling to form the racks with, so I think I will work on that next. Maybe that will lend itself to some more pictures, perhaps tomorrow.

See ya then. Jerry

I finally got an opening cut for one of these Double DIN Nav Units. I had to do quite a bit of shimming of the trim guide and had to reshim the trim guide for the other two opening because I found that I had almost too little room in between for the NAV Unit.

Then I had to do a lot of busy work in glueing the doubler material inside some of the Upper Inserts so I could have a few to test the trim guides with some more. I have them very close to where they will need to be depending on how it goes with the leather covering.

Here ar a few pictures:

The first two show what appears to be a simple process of cutting out the openings. Actually it is fairly simple, but for each one has to be done twice for each of the upper and lower openings and one for the mid opening. In between the first cutting and the last three I have to glue in the doubler material, some of which is shown in the third picture.

The fourth picture show the kind of mess that I find myself working in. I just don'e seem to have to time to put things away, aside from the problem I have mentioned before about making a place to put the clutter. I think that is the nature of creativity.

The last picture is the mockup of the upper insert with three of the four components roughly in place.

What I have to do next is glue in some more plastic for the mounting of the HVAC and lock panels which will be mounted to this insert. Then I need to glue in the Air Vent behind the upper opening. The vent will become a permanent part of this insert. Then I'm going to try to cover this with leather and see how that is going to work.

Jerry

looks good! now you just need to figure out how to keep that have unit from moving!

The NAV Unit is going to be mounted to the Console. I have been designing a rack or cage for it to hang in. The rack will be permanently mounted to the console and the NAV Unit will be held in it by its usual mounting places, probably about four screws.

The problem now is that all of the "extra" space I was thinking I had designed into this upper unit has turned out to be a myth. That means that my design for the rack is going to have to be changed to allow for minimal space between the components. I am working on that as I write.

One adjustment I will have to make is to move the NAV Unit opening up about a 1/16 of an inch because I think right now it is going to be snug against the HVAC--no space even for an .032 sheet of aluminum that I am making the rack out of. I think the extra space will be just barely enough. The only drawback is that there is going to be almost no leather reveal between the NAV Unit and theAir Vent Grill.

I'll keep hitting on it and see what happens.

Jerry

i will take some measurements of my double din, and see how that fits in with your design.

Well, I moved the router jig for the middle opening and cut one of the inserts. I guess I got the gig a little crooked because the hole is not true. Now, I am busy again trimming out some of the formed inserts and starting to glue up a few of them for the next round of trials. I suspect that I will have the router jigs just about on in the next one or two tries. I'm using up a few of the formed inserts in this process, but that is just the nature of it. The real problem is not so much in the forming since that goes pretty well, but in the time it takes to cut, glue, and cure the doublers inside, with some cutting in between. It is real time consuming.

What I will do, and I am starting to do some of in now, is cutting grinding and sanding the doubler material for the insides so I can have a bunch ready to go and can just put them in and clamp them up in a bunch without measuring, cutting, grinding, sanding, and glueing each one as I go. Boy, is that tedious.

Too, I have refined the inside doubler system so that I can eliminate about 3 out of 10 of the individual pieces. I am down to 7 now and can do them in two set-ups or maybe even only one, if I have all of the material ready ahead of time like I suggested I am trying to do.

Another advantage I have discovered is that this ABS Glue sets up pretty quickly, like in an hour or less, even though it takes much longer to fully cure. I can work with it set up only and can save time in waiting for that. If I have pieces all glued up I can let them cure over night and then can trim them, cover them and then let let them fully cure over time.

I missed a few evenings last week on this project, but let's see how much I might get done tomorrow evening.

Jerry

What I need to know is the width and height of the body of the Double DIN. The depth will also be helpful, but more for the purposes of installation rather than fitting into this system.

I also would like for you to post for me the exact width and height of the part of your unit that will be visible in the front. I think it will also be helpful to know how far from the body measurement your face presentation projects.
Then tell what your unit is. I think you might have already, but do it again.

Jerry

Wow this is simply amazing. I never realized the work involved to create pieces like this until I started following your posts. It looks like it came from the Porsche factory. Thanks for posting this Jerry. -Joel

You are welcome, Joel. It is always my pleasure to create something unique, especially if I might have some use for it myself.

Jerry

By the way, I had one more picture that helps to show the close proximity of the Nav unit and the hvac. Her it is:

The leather might make a little difference; but t I still need enough space between these for the rack I hope to make and with it, a little bit of hem or other structural material to help beef up the connection between the two sides of the console in this area, especially since I am grinding out essentially all of the plastic in this area holding the two sides together.

Jerry

the face is about 3 3/4 tall, and 6 5/8 wide. sticks about 7 1/4 deep. add about an 1/8- 3/16 to the edges for the slide in and mount

When you use the word "about" that is a weasel word and leaves a little bit to be desired. However, if I were describing the face of my own Double DIN, that is "about" what I would say it measures.

Now, when you say it stick out about 7 1/4 inches, I begin to get lost in regards to what you are saying. The face of my unit projects or sticks out "about" 3/8 of an inch, depending on what part of the projection you are talking about, and that is a lot different than 7 1/4 inches.

Now, let's give you a chance to simply measure the body of the unit. I think it measures 7 inches wide by 4 inches high and probably 6 1/2 inched deep up to the point of the face that will then start to project. What do you come up with?

Jerry

I should have said, sticks in about 7 1/4, from face to back of unit. Sounds like mine is the same size as yours. Great pictures of the progress too!

I find myself continuing to make changes in my concept of how this upper insert should work. I am also continuing to try to simplify the process of making one. Last time or so I described reducing the number of doubler pieces from about 10 to 7. Now I think I am going to reduce them to 5. What I have decided to do is eliminate three of the doubler pieces I was going to put into the insert in the lower area for the HVAC and other panel.

What I have been troubling over is the fact the the face presentation of these two panels I am moving to the lower part of the insert, is about 150 thousandths. That is slight more than an eighth of an inch. As a result I have reduced the doubler material from and eighth of an inch to 3 thirty seconds, but even with that I am having trouble firguring out how I can have the face of these panels come out at least flush. When I consider the thickness of the leather they are simply going to end up slightly recessed. I don't like that.

I thought about reducing the thickness of the doubler material to a sixteenth, but then I wonder "why bother?" Then I really wonder why I need any doubler material in that area at all. I am going to have some beef-up in that area with glue in blocks for screwing these two panel in, so why do I need any other doubler material. Without it I can eliminate three pieces that would need to be glued in. Then, even with the thickness of the leather I think the face of these two panels will present about flush or just very slightly above flush, which is ideal.

No pictures, but I think I am getting close to having one or two of these upper inserts finished enough, and correctly, so that I can cover it in leather and show you what it will look like.

I spent the evening cutting some material and trimming it for what is going to be left of the inside doubler program and in cooking one each of the two items I made machines for. I also figrured out that if I put some masking tape on the face of the next insert I try to cut openings in and first mark the opening with a pen or pensil, I will be able to tell if the jug is tue or not, without cutting the insert then looking at the flaw. DUH!!

Jerry Feather

Jesus Jerry, that looks friking amazing!

Dan
'91 928GT S/C :eek: 475hp/460lb.ft

^^^ Indeed, I am looking forward to ordering the finished product Jerry, it does look good.

I suspect that when this thread trails off for a few pages some of you are wondering what the heck I am doing on this project. Actually I have been working pretty steadily on it making adjustments in the trimming guides for the router and glueing up some of the inside doublers. None of that lends itself very well to pictures and not even much to verbal discription.

Nevertheless, I have the guides almost exact, and will make one more tiny adjustment in the one for the middle opening in a little while, then I am going to try to concentrate on some of the rest of the development of the lower trim piece. For it I still have to fabricate the part of the forming machine that will be needed to form the 5-speed version of that part, and then I need to figure out just how to develop the openings for whatever is going to put in the panel parts of it.

Given the nature of the lower trim design, I have a lot of possibilities for configuration, but with some limitations, particularly as it relates to the limits on use of the original clock. Too, I don't have much idea yet what the possiblilties are going to be for additional instrumentation in that component.

If I get done what I am shooting for this weekend I expect to have the two pieces of this conversion face done well enough to try to cover them in leather, then I'll post some pictures of that mocked up in one of the spare consoles I have to work with. I may even have the rack for hanging the NAV unit in the console done and even mounted in one of them to show. We'll see.

Jerry Feather

This FLUSH Console conversion "System," if that what it becomes, is starting to take some final form. I have a prototype of each of the components that I have fitted stuff to and am going to take it down to my trim guy's place for some help in covering them. I hope he is working today.

Here are a few pictures of what I have to this point.

In the first picture, with all the white background I didn't get a flash so it doesn't show up too well. I expected that so I took the next two a little closer so maybe you can see what I am showing.

In the last two pictures I am showing the first and second prototypes of the NAV rack. The second one has the bottom flange folded completely over to form a hem since there is not enough space between the NAV and the HVAC for a flange. I also made the second one out of 040 aluminum rather than 050 which I did the first one with. I like 040 better, and I think it will work into the build-up of the mounting location better.

Looking good Jerry!

You might be able to notice that I did a little bit of restoration to this center console I am working with. The lower sides were very much delaminated, the worst I have seen to this point, so I relaminated them the best I could. I think they will stay, but the length of time they were in the curled-up state is going to leave scares in the vinyl, probably forever.

Here are a few more pictures.

The first one shows the second prototype rack loosely on the NAV, This NAV is a Pioneer AVIC-Z3. It is a little different than the other two I am going to be working with, the 910 and 920, but the front opening is going to stay the same for all of them.

The second picture shows my little Infinit clock in it's opening which I have placed centered on the shifter recess.

Third shows the Air Vent glued into the top of the upper insert; and last shows the top of the air vent with the little patch I made and glued into place which fills the void that is going to be left when these are cut out of the console, but leaving the two mounting holes fixed to the console.

Jerry

Here is a little better picture of the whole concept.

And another. This black stuff just isn't showing up very well in natural light.

Jerry

Back in the day in the Air Force we used to define progress as movement in any direction. Now I am beginning to see that there might be some real meaning to that phrase.

I have the two prototype components covered with leather and they look really nice. The problem is that now I have to move backward a bit to correct for the thickness of leather where I have not quite allowed enough in my tooling.

Fortunately, I had this possibility in mind while calculating the leather allowance and kept the tooling on the short side of the allowance so now I only have to mill out a tiny bit here and there rather than throwing any of it away and starting over.

Here is a picture of the two covered components with a couple of the items in place, sort of. The ones that are left out don't fit, yet. Actually they probably will never fit, since this is as far as this prototype will ever go. I will make the adjustments in the tooling and bring a second prototype to this point, and then hopefully beyond.

I covered this prototype in tan leather both so it will stand out better for this picture and because this is the color of leather that we put in my DD S4 some time ago. It is not a Porsche leather color and will not likely be put on anyone else's conversion, but it does show one of the possibilities in regard to contrast.

On the other hand I suspect that if this conversion makes it to market most of them will be covered in Black leather. For that purpose we have found one large hide that has a grain very much like the simulated leather grain in the vinyl in the console and elsewhere in the 928s.

I think I will cover the next prototype in some of that black leather.

WOW! :thumbup::thumbup:

You appear to be close to done, but having followed your saga for so long, I know you aren't satisfied yet. Anyway, these last 2 pictures have me salivating. Are you taking pre-orders yet?

I'd like to give my opinion about cutouts. I've held back to let you go where you may and because there could be so many opinions, and you wouldn't want to try to satisfy everyone. But here goes.:)

The clock cutout bothers me because it pretty much limits you to a certain style of clock, and I think the Lexus (er, Infiniti, whatever) clock is, um, too girlie for me.

I like the idea of the holes for a gear indicator in the first mock up, but I'm not sure how that would be completed. What are you ideas on that?

How do you intend to finish the shifter cut out? Right now you have a small recess with a slot for the shaft in the leather covered mock-up. How would a boot attach? I have a Jager boot that fits the opening in the stock plate, and it's bigger than your recess. What about 5-speeds? Your recess looks too small.

It occurred to me you could offer uncut lower piece and allow people to configure their own cutouts and finish covering. OR, you could include your finish work, as it looks so good, with some very limited variation in cutouts allowed, say, for a different clock option or no clock.

I thought about an uncut upper piece for the same reason, but your work reinforcing the 2DIN cutout and fitting the climate control and vent is good and I can't see why anyone would want to change it. I suppose if someone had a single DIN unit, they could fit that and find a single DIN cubbyhole that would fit...or a panel for accessory gages. So, I think the top piece is optimal as is.

Anyway, that leather covered mock-up looks VERY, VERY sharp!

Up to this point I have been forging ahead pretty much single mindedly. I did have soime good input from Jimmy about the possibility of additional gauges, but that has so far ended in a sort of dead end, except for the 5-speed version of this conversion, and except for the still open need to discover some suitable gauges in about 1 1/2 inch size. I saw a brief reference in a link to Something Sterling did some time ago, but he was kind enough to let me know that the gauges he found were not suitable. They weren't any good!

Part of the project that is still open is the application of a clock, if that is desired. What might the clock consist of. I suppose the little Infiniti clock is of some limited quantity, but I have several of them; and I have a very few of the slightly larger Infiniti clock. I think either of them can be adapted to the lower trim piece, if desired. There is adequate space in the lower trim piece for the rear AC controls in any number of places, and space also for a 12v power outlet. In fact I just bought one on eBay that is out of a VW Jetta, I think, but which appears to have a very suitaqble appearance with a nicely hinged cap.

One of the major concerns I have is how I will be able to get the upper air vent removed from someone's console leaving the correct amount of plastic in the console for mounting it back in the car, and then trimming and glueing the vent into the upper insert before the insert is covered in leather; and, including the need to patch the hole in top left by the plastic not taken out of the console.

I wonder if there is going to be much of a desire to have the little lights along side the left of the auto shifter for gear selection indication? Did you notice the little row of holes I drilled for these in one of the last pictures? I have ordered a bunch of 3mm led's to see if I can make some suitable indicator lights; and then I will need to design and build a switching panel for underneath the lower trim piece that will pick up the shifter location, probably with a series of micro switches.

Another item that still needs development is the air guide to fill in the new void between the relocated air vent and the air box under the dash. I think I will try to make something that can be glued or screwed to the air box that will have a face to it that can mate up to the vent in the new location. I don't know yet how that is going to be made, whether hand fabricated or perhaps formed in some way as these other pieces.

My thinking at this point is that it is beginning to look like if I am able to bring this conversion to market it is probably going to have to be on a custom basis for each conversion. In that, I would have the buyer send me his or her console and the NAV unit to be installed and any clock or gauges that we have decided on and then I would do the conversion in the console here. I would cover it with leather and send it back for the buyer to arrange final installation.

Then there is going to be the question of leather color, at least to the extent that someone might like something other than black, perhaps to match some other color leather in their car. I have a source for Porsche color leather, but don't have a great deal of confidence in how close the colors might match, especially now that the original leather in the cars is so old. Or, how about the possibility that the buyer sends me their own leather? That could be a good lpossibility where they have a new interior and where some of the new leather can be obtained.

I still don't know what the likelyhood is going to be to move anything on the air box as Kieth Widom had to do, but a later person found to be unnecessary, perhaps because of the slightly different model of Pioneer NAV unit he used. That suggests to me that this possibility remains strong. This is one of the things Nicole suggested originally that might be required in this kind of conversion system. I probably wont know the answer to this one until I get to the point of putting this conversion into one of my own cars.

I know that there has been a lot of interest in this project simply by the number of times the thread has been viewed. So, now might be the time for anyone to start posting their interests and concerns so that there is more than just my simple mind involved.

Thanks for your interest.

Jerry Feather

Thanks Bill. We seem to be on the same wave length. While you were posting your last, I was drafting mine.

The reason the clock is such a problem is that there is too little space in what is now the "clock panel" for a clock in the auto version of this conversion. The 5-speed version is substantially different in that the shifter does not go as far foreward as the auto. This conversion as done by Kieth Widom would not work for the auto cars.

As to the shifter recess, there is going to be a much different recess for the 5-speed. The one I have been showing is strictly for the Auto cars. I have the form made for the 5-speed trim panel, except I still have to make and install the counter-male form piece that will actually push in to form that recess.

As to the finish for the shifter, each of these will have its own shifter boot, either made of the same leather as the conversion is covered in or perhaps contrasting. The boot will be based on a simple plastic insert to fit into the shifter recess and will be held in by friction or screwed in from below. It will form the base of the leather boot that will be probably glued to it. None of the original or aftermarket boots are going to be adaptable to this conversion. The base for the auto and 5-speed shifters will not even be the same because the recesses are different; and even the leather size will not be the same because the circumfrences of the recesses are different.

Thanks, Bill, for your input, and for your compliments.

Jerry Feather

I am looking at the last picture I posted and I'll bet you are wondering just how I got the color of the NAV screen to match the leather. Actually so am I. I wonder if it is Chameleon?

Jerry

Jerry Greetings, and congratulations on the progress of your "System." Your work, as usual, is simply beautiful! I concur the custom approach appears the logical course, and as others have indicated, I'm ready when you are! Although at first I considered a wood finish, after seeing your prototype the leather appearance is much more elegant (black matches my interior). I would however depending on cost like to have the option to cover the entire center console to avoid any new/old contrast. To my disappointment I have been unable to find minature gauges that would complement the pedigree of our cars, but the Prosport Digital series offers a clock that just might work. I'd like to send it and the others gauges along for your evaluation and possible inclusion wherever. Lastly, my Nav is a Kenwood DNX7140 and I believe the measurements are the same as the Pioneer. Please advise your next step. Jimmy.

Hi Jimmy and all. I find it kind of wierd that when I measure the thickness of the leather that I am using it shows about 035 to 040 in thickness with a dial caliper, but when it is installed around the edges of this plastic it seems to take up to just about a 1/16 of an inch in space. I had allowed the former in many of my calculations, thinking that with the force of pulling it around these edges it might even get a little thinner, but found that I really should have been allowing more for the end result.

I spent the afternoon re-milling the forming guides for the upper insert openings and have tried them out on a couple of the inserts. I destroyed one insert because I didn't pay close attention to the method of lay-up of the insert in the truimming guide, but then I finished one that is just about perfect, at least assuming that I have the adjustments correct. I'll glue it up later and then cover it with black leather and see how it fits.

In the meantime I guess I have to figure out how to take the air vent out of the last insert to put in the next, or otherwise I am going to run out of spare consoles with fresh airvents to work with.

I also made up three of the shifter boot bases that I am going to cover with the leather boot and post that soon. I have some issues with the rough prototype of boot my trim guy made for me a while ago, but hope to figure out how to solve that with the next version of the boot.

There is going to be only one stiched seam in the leather in this whole conversion project. For those of you who like french seams and other top stitching, this is going to be a dissapointment. I like french seams too, but I find that it is just about impossible to even make a french seam in the leather boots which is going to be the only seam in the whole project. It is gong to have to be a simple seam, and perhaps I will glue the insides of the seam in a butterfly fashion for proper fitment.

I think I am a ways away from merchantability of this system, but when I get there I'll start a thread in my sponsorship and see how it might go from there. I don't have much of an idea of what I will be charging for whatever it turns out I can sell, but I'll analyze that when the time comes and see how it goes. I'll probably have to at least get one ready for final installation in one of my cars before I can tell what I will have to have for the conversion and I hope it is something that the most of you can live with.

Jerry Feather

that nave tray is a great idea! how do you plan to attach it to the console?

Based upon the pic showing the HVAC controls, if you fill in the area below the controls you might have enough room for the 928 clock supplied on the earlier cars and the wood trimmed cars.

Nice work by the way. Amazing skills! Looking forward to seeing the final product.

Here is a shot of the clock I was referring to.

Hi Duckman.

The NAV tray or rack is made with a flange all around the three sides of the front, except the flange along the cross part will be folded into a seam for strenght and stiffness. That wil leave a flange about 3/8 inch or less on the two sides that will be mounted in the console. I plan to fill up the recess along the inside of the console where the HVAC originally mounts from the front so that both sides are up flush with the bottom of the mounting ledge for the upper insert. I'll build that up with ABS plastic and glue it in with Goat Tuff glue. I plan to leave just enough clearance for the 040 aluminum rack so it can be glued in there and leave the ending upper surface at the point of mating with the bottom of the upper insert that I am forming for this project.

The trick is going to be figuring out how to locate the rack and glue it in at the same time. I'll either use ABS glue and have holes in the rack for a firm grip, or use Goat Tuff glue which will bond the aluminum to the ABS plastic permanently. I'll probably end up ruining one spare console trying to figure this out, but that is the nature of this kind of prototyping.

I am open to other suggestions.

Jerry Feather

Thanks M.B.

I have previously considered joining the upper insert with the lower trim piece when Jimmy and I were giving some thought to extra instruments. Bonding the two together, with a spacer to take up the thickness of two layers of leather, and counting the thickness of the plastic in that area, will give about 300 thousandths extra space, which is quite a bit of space. That, together with the space already there in the auto version of the lower trim piece might be enough for the clock you are considering. I don't like round clocks, and that is one of the reasons I started on this whole project, so I am not inclined to spend a lot of time developing around that particular clock. Too, joining these two formed pieces is going to make a real problem in getting the insert into and out of the console, I think.

On the other hand, that particular clock might just be placed in the right upper corner of the auto trim panel with the rear AC controls to the left of it, and work just fine.

Is there some reason that the clock could not be put over there and work out? Or, that clock might actually fit in the left upper corner with the rear AC controls to the right. Or, how about putting that clock on the upper right and the rear AC controls just below it? There is actually a lot of space in this new lower trim piece; it may just be a function of using our imagination.

Jerry Feather

Here is a picture of the shifter boot base for the auto shifter version of the lower trim piece.

I have also unglued the leather around the clock opening so I can rasp the opening out a little to see if I can get the clock to fit.

Jerry

Jerry,
I also am following this with much interest. I wouldn't mind having one for both my 79 and 88 if the price were right. I am sorry to hear that you don't like the round clock as I have seen the round vdo clocks last for 25 -30 years and still function perfectly. I have one now that is 31 years old and I just love it. I do like the looks of your infinity clock but having an infinity logo in a Porsche just doesn't give off the right vibes for me. It kind of whispers 'Wouldn't you rather be driving an infinity?' And the answer to that question is a big time NO. So, other than that, the one covered in the Tan leather looks just wonderful.

Keep up the good work. I am following your work as it progresses as I am sure many others are. Just have to ask, any idea on price yet?

Thanks,

I don't understand this part.

Paul

That's easy for you to say!

Hi Frank. Thnaks for your interest in this project. I have the impression the the center console in the 78 928 is different from the later cars. Now, I have to wonder if the 79 is like the 78 or like the later cars.

Is your 79 center console essentially the same as your 88?

Jerry Feather

I guess you'll be offering a version with the stock clock cutout, for those who already have a factory analogue clock? (MY90+ owners)

The leather one looks great - looks better than I was expecting and may yet work with the factory stitching (I was anticipating having it stripped, and re-covered with a similar stitched edge to my factory center console).

On the cutout point by Bill Ball above - is it safe to assume you'll be keeping the stock 5-speed shifter cutout? So that the base plate inside the boot clips onto the frame in the same way as stock, thus holding the base of the shifter boot in place?

Hi Hilton. The stock analog clock will probably fit into the lower trim piece for the five-speed cars, but not for the auto's.

No, it is not safe to assume that I am going to retain any way to use the original five-speed shifter boot. That too is going to be replaced in this conversion. The new shifter boot will be substantially smaller at the base.

The one problem that you bring up that I seem to keep forgetting is just how well my conversion is going to work with a center console that has been itself covered in leather. I find, now that I have covered one set of these pieces, that they are very snug in the bare vinyl console. I don't know where the extra layer of leather is going to fit. I suspect that one or perhaps both layers of leather are going to have to be skived in order to make this system work with a console trimmed in leather. Not impossible, but a lot of work; and if both need to be skived, the leather on the console will need to be skived before it is installed.

Jerry Feather

"My thinking at this point is that it is beginning to look like if I am able to bring this conversion to market it is probably going to have to be on a custom basis for each conversion. In that, I would have the buyer send me his or her console and the NAV unit to be installed and any clock or gauges that we have decided on and then I would do the conversion in the console here. I would cover it with leather and send it back for the buyer to arrange final installation."

For me this is a bit of shame, as I would like to have it in kit form to put to together here,my reasoning is that for overseas buyers it is going to get mighty expensive to start shipping large console pieces back and forward.

As mine will be black leather, no clock or rear a/c buttons I think the LED shifter lights are a good idea otherwise this area might be a bit sparse.

Mark

Hi Mark.

Your post is the kind of information that is very helpful in my planning for this project. The first test will be to see just how "mighty expensive" it might be to ship a console to you or me and to and from other places outside this country.

I certainly want to accomodate as many owners as might be interested in this conversion and that will include accomodating various levels of skill and of financial resources.

When I say "my thinking at this point" I am trying to suggest that I am still very open on how to present this, if at all. Don't give up hope yet.

Jerry Feather

I continue to develop aspects of this FLUSH Conversion as time permits. I have some plans for further development this weekend, but have a few other projects around here to get done also.

Here are a couple of pictures of the second prototyope auto shifter boot we made earlier this week. My trim guy made an earlier one for me that he found he could not french seam all the way to the top because it was fairly tall and narrow at the top. However, I redesigned it and made the top opening a little larger, because I had obtained a spare shifter handle on eBay, and find that he can now french seam it ALMOST all the way to the top, at least up to where it is turned inside to go over the handle. Whether we will be able to do that on whatever the final version turns out to be still remains to be seen.

Jerry Feather

There is still some progress, but not much to take pictures of. I have been working on the system to have indicator lights along the left of the Automatic trans shifter that will light up to show which position the trans is in. I ordered a bunch of different coler LED's on eBay and have received most or maybe all of them. I also ordered a bunch of micro switches to see if I can make some kind of set-up of switches th catch the shift lever position. Those haven't come yet. Whe they do I am going to have to take one of my cars apart to further that development.

In the meantime I have been trying to figure out how best to show the position with LED's. I first tried some white translucent plastic and it was not too bad, then I tried some clear plexiglas that was tinted about 50% gray, but it is too clear and lets the LED project through. I am afraid it will be shining on the headliner at night. Then I went back to the white plastic and worked a little more with the placement of the bulb and the size of the "lens" and have found about what I think will work well.

I am also looking at some small rocker switches to work into the system of indicator lites so they can be turned off at night for longer leg trips maybe and not be an annoyance. I haven't ordered any of those yet, but may tonight or tomorrow.

I have my lathe set up and am trying to pump out some of these lite lenses so maybe I can have them lazer engraved with the PRND32 indications for each position.

I am also working on the forming member for the 5-speed shifter trim piece. I may try to form some of those tomorrow if I get back to that part of the project in the morning.

If I get some of the lite lenses finished tomorrow I 'll try to take a picuure of what I have and post then.

Jerry Feather

I've been away and missed the pics on 9/11 with the boot. Looks VERY nice. Carry on!

This far exceeds my expectations. Keep going - it's going to be a great option for our cars!

It may not seem like much, but it takes a lot of time. Here are a few pictures of the process of making the little lenses for the shifter position indicator lites that might work into some of these conversions.

Dang, none of these focuses at the right place. The first is trying to show a projection of about two inches or so of plastic rod out of the three jaw lathe chuck.

The second shows that I have milled the half inch rod down to about 450 thousandths.

The third is trying to show that I have turned about a quarter of an inch of the end down to about 300 Thousandths.

The fourth show that I am dirlling the end of the lense with a numbered drill to about 123 thou. and about 3/16 or so deep.

The last shows me cutting the end of the rod off with what is the first step of the lense body.

What I have to do next is set up the lathe and then turn the lens projection down to about an aighth of an inch high and then turn the corners down to about a 45 degree angle to reduce the sharpness.

What I hope to do is make about a dozen sets of thes lenses and then place them in a milled rack so that the lazer guy can put the initial or number in the top of each that I can fill with black paint.

Here is my progress so far with these lenses.

The first shows the lenses that I have started in the upper left of the tray and a few that are finished at the other end.

The second two are trying to show the lenses in place, but there is still a focus problem that seems to be more function of the flash than the focus.

Here are some samples of how the lites might look.

I turned the flash off to see if that would help, but not much. I am planning to use red for the park position, blue for reverse, white for neutral, green for drive, orange for third and yellow for second.

On the other hand, if I get the lenses printed with the letter designation, I suppose one could use the same color for all of them, and the color could be buyers choice.

These pictures kind of show how they might look, although in real life they show up much better than in these pictures. The only drawback is that using white opaque plastic, the red shows up kind of stark pink.

Its interesting how the lens shows up white even when the colored lite is shining through. Here is a real close-up showing how the lens really looks with the light on. It actually turns the lens the color of the light, even though that is not how they look in the other pictures. Its out of fucus, but I had to get it that close in order to get it not to show the white of the lens with the lite on.

Jerry,

Do you intend those little lenses to sit flush with the leather or raised.

IMHO flush with numbers would be the best.

Mark

Hi Mark. That is certainly a reasonable suggestion. However, what I have found so far is that in order to get the top of the lens to glow somewhat evenly it needs to have a certain amount of "volume" of plastic and needs to have to LED mounted fairly low in the lens. Nevertheless, what I will try, based on your suggestion, is to make some of these with a much shallower lens above the leather although still not quite flush, and perhaps make the stem of the lens larger so the top will have a better opportunity to glow fully rather than leaving the thin edges dim. (I hope this makes sense.)

I am not sure how I could make these actually completely flush with the leather and still keep this aspect of this project simple enough to be economical. What do you have in mind for mounting these lenses completely flush. I'm thinking that the best I might be able to do is simply make them project above the leather much less, but still about a 32nd of an inch. With this method I'm using I simply push the lenses through the holes from the top and they are held in by friction with the leather. To mount them completely flush will require them to be installed from underneath while being held in some other kind of assembly. I'll give that some more thought.

I'll give the shallower lenses a try in the next couple of days and post what I come up with.

By the way, I received the little micro switches that I ordered. They look like they will work out pretty well for the method to turn these lites on in operation. Now I have to develop some means to mount them and adjust them to get the correct placement in relation to the shifter shaft which is what will be activating them.

Thanks for your suggestion.

Jerry

I think my brain works a lot like most. When I have been thinking and working on something for a time in one frame of mine, I find myself being kind of negative about some alternative that might present itself, and tend to discount it. I think you can see that going on in my prevous post in response to Mark.

Then after my brain starts working on the new idea it seems to loosen up a bit and give more consideration to the new idea, especially when the new one has some good merit. I think you might see that in my previous post also.

Then, after I have had a chance to go through a lot of design considerations and concepts, I find myself embracing the new idea more fully. That is kind of where I find myself with Mark's idea at this point.

After I made my previous post this mornig I had to travel out of town about 85 miles and back and while driving I had a great chance to do some development in my mind over what Mark has suggested. I think I can approach these shift indicator lites for the Auto cars in a manner suggested by Mark, and find that it might work well within my capabilities and not add too much time in the fabrication, althought some. The manner of working his concept into this project fits within my original plans for a lite/switching mechanism pretty well, and I can put the lites into the switching member and then install the whole thing into the lower trim piece from underneath.

Actually, I am not entirely convinced that making these lites very flush is esthetically the best way to go. However, I think that mounting them from underneath could work very well and could be nearly flush or not too far above flush so as to be more pleasing. Or they could be made to be well above flush as an alternative, much like they appear now. From a theoretical standpoint I think Mark's idea will work well, with some concern about how the leather will react to pushing a lens through the leather lined hole from underneath. If I can form the leather around the holes and glue it down securely, I think it will work.

It may take longer than an day or two, but I'll try to work this concept up and see what you think of it.

Jerry

Well, Mark, I didn't get to work much on the flush lite concept you have suggested. When I took the lower trim piece out of my silver S4 to try the new flush version in it, an auto, I found that although the trim piece kind of fit, it was a little off. I found that my measurements of the shifter location was about an eighth of an anch off, left to right, and is a little bit short. Actuallly I was expecting it to be a bit short in front, but it is more short in the rear.

I decided that I need to lick my calf over a little.

What I did was rebuild the basic form so that the left side of the shifter opening is moved left a bit so that the shifter will be centered, and opened it up a quarter inch in front and a half inch in the rear. In front the shifter boot was getting its panties in a bunch, so to say, and needs a little more space. Even at that I am going to have to redesign the shifter boot some to get it to not bunch up so much between the shifter shaft and the trim piece in front.

Then, of course, I made a new form to push the shifter recess in the proper amount. I have formed one, but it is cooling as I write, so I don't have a picture yet. Fortunately, the dozen or so of these pieces that I have formed already were not trimmed so I think I am going to be able the simply reform them. This ABS plastic has a good memory and at something over about 260 degrees it goes back to its original form and can then be reformed as if for the first time. I'll see if I right about that when I take this one out of the form later.

I also made the male form to push the 5-speed shifter recess down in for those versions of the lower trim piece, so when I get the auto pieces reformed I'll be able to start some of those versions of this conversion

Maybe tomorrow I'll get some more progress on the flush auto shift indicator lite part of this project. I'll have to take some more of the center console apart to do that I think.

See ya later.

Jerry Feather

I took the first reformed lower trim piece out of the machine and took a picture of it next to the previously formed piece. Actually I took two pictures. Here they are.

You can barely see the original strike-off lines from the original formed shifter recess in the new larger one. Of course, that will not be visible in the finished product.

Jerry

Jerry:

I completely understand how suggestions at this point can really throw you off. I do like Mark's "flush" idea, but it seemed to me that it would require you to rework the mold to put in a recess for the lens. And then you'd have to worry about the leather edge too. Same with mounting from below. Tough one. If you figure out how to accomodate that, you're a genius. Most modern cars just have printed PRNDL indicator plate next to the shifter - nothing fancy. These indicator lights and a system to coordinate them with the shifter are probably overkill.

I would opt for no lights at all its just one more thing to distract you from the taks at hand Driving.
I try to remove or reduce the surrounding lights as much as possible so the pod lights are the most visiible

That will certainly be an option.

Jerry

And, of course, that will be to only option for the five speed cars.

Bill, you might be right about overkill. Nevertheless, now is a good time for optional ideas to come up especially about how to finish this lower trim piece. There isn't much more that can be done to the other one, the upper insert, but there is some space available around the shifter in both versions of the lower trim piece to consider different configurations and components, within reason, of course.

Jerry

I wouldn't care to have those lights - I only look at the indicator in the dash anyway.

Jerry, with regards to the lights it does seem a lot of effort on something that does seem to appealing to many folk.

I was thinking more about an illuminated flush gear indicator, rather than that each gear being illuminated when selected.

Would it be easier to have a long rounded rectangle lit from behind with the gear inidicators on it rather indivual button lights for each gear?

I think with nothing there it will look bare and a little strange.

Mark

To me this makes the most sense, for the reasons Nicole and Stan give. The indicator lights on the tach are enough for me. More than enough actually, when D burnt out I didn't replace it. If all the others work, what's off is D by default.

WOW, this is all great feedback. I hope to get as much or maybe more in regard to some of the other few options relating to the lower trim piece.

For example, Clock-in-or-clock-out! If "in," which one and where to put it.

Another is the power outlet. In or out and if in, where, and which one. I just bought another one or two on eBay because the one I bought before was not the quality I thought it was going to be. I want one with a nice hinged lid, not the kind with the crude flexible plastic strap that functions as a hinge.

Then, where to put the rear AC controls if they apply.

All of that doesn't sound like much, but just working around those three considerations makes a lot of possible combinations. Actually, I suppose all of these will be worked out on an individual basis with each potential user, but it will be helpful to have some ideas ahead of time as to what the combinations and placement wishes are.

Thanks for all the input.

Jerry

Clock - out (the double-din head will have a clock)

Power outlet - out (there are better, inconspicuous places for it)

Shift indicator - out (most will refer to the pod gage, for those without said gage will want thei own custom solution)

I've been following closely and it appears you my be "in the weeds" w/details which may only satisfy a small segment of your market.
I suggest you focus on core product, and get it on the market. Your best market research will be your first customers.
After core product has been established, and you have revenue from sales... you can then consider more integrated product solutions which may appeal to a larger segment.

Re AC knobs, put 'em where they fit, or leave it up to the end user.

Maybe it is just me but the clock is redundant in many cars, what with digital clocks on most all car stereos of the last xx years. I have 2 '84's, and neither LCD clock works, in addition to being redundant. I personally do not care for the oval Lexus clock either. Just a personal dislike. If one has to have a clock in the panel I do prefer the round VDO clock as to appearance, but also recognize many will consider that look to be "too old".

I also recognize not all will have this issue/problem/opinion but I would like the no clock option.....

By the way, very nice job you are doing on this project. And you may want to keep in mind the suggestion that a Platypus was designed by a commitee....all our thoughts and opinions considered and you may well have something similar if you try to meet all our needs!:corn:

Jadz928 hits the nail on the head......deliver the base product and then consider options and the cost of those options and the difficulty of delivering them and price the options accordingly. I would not burden the base product with options costs.......IMO

I hadn't thought about the clock, but I agree its probably redundant given most stereo / multi media displays have some sort of clock.

[QUOTE=tmpusfugit;. you may want to keep in mind the suggestion that a Platypus was designed by a commitee [/QUOTE]

Thanks Stormy, and I am cognizant of the phrase " Jury rigged" often mistated as "Jerry Rigged."

Jerry Feather

Greetings Jerry. For us older models (81 without rear AC) I'm sure you know my preference for gauges in what space may be available. IMO clocks are a lower priority to an air/fuel ratio, etc. Of course the nice gauges are at least 52mm. But I'm a beliver in JF and if there is a way, you'll figure it out. I like the shift lights, question is long term reliability. Jimmy.

I have been working on the idea of having the indicator lites for the Auto Shifter position mounted flush rather that setting up a little like the previous pictures show. I have been making several of the new version of the lenses and working on the design of the assembly to mount them in under the lower shifter trim piece. I have made a bunch of the lenses and just made a mock up of the kind of set-up that I will have for having them flush which means that they will have to be put up through the leather covered trim piece from underneath.

Here are a few pictures of the mock-up. The lenses shown here are not complete since I still have to cut then to the correct height and put a tiny bevel around the upper edge. Nevertheless, this gives you an idea of how they might look when complete.

Jerry:

I think the lenses just don't fit well, flush or not, in the smooth, simple design of your panels. I have gathered that you like a challenge, and making them flush was a good one. You've done it, but as others were saying, this is probably more of a distraction than anything else.

Jerry: I think it's amazing that you go the six extra miles to make these flush. It was not a requirement, but it will be nice to have this option.

What could make it really perfect, is to have the exposed area of the white inserts be a bit larger and taper off underneath, so there is no big gap between leather and insert.

Then, I assume, you will have the insert painted black, have the lettering lasered out, and then coat it with a matte clear coat. Correct?

WOW, Nicole! You really have a creative mind! Of course, that's what got me started down this road in the first place, so I sould not be so surprised. I would be interesting to know what you are able to do with all of your imagination in your own right.

As to the apparent gap between the lens and the leather, in reality that is actually not even noticable. I was quite surprised to see how that gap shows up in two of the recent pictures, and even looked more closely at my mock-up to see of somehow the lenses had jumped up above flush a bunch. They had not and I think the lenses look just fine the way they are.

On the other hand, to make the lenses the way you suggest to eliminate what gap there is would then require that the lenses be inserted individually from the top rather than from underneath. What I am developing is a little lite assembly that will have the lites along the top inserted into their own frame and will have the micro switches mounted to the same frame and wired together. Then the lenses can be inserted into the holes for them all at the same time and the assembly fastened to the underside of the trim piece. I am also going to put a little rocker switch there in the trim piece someplace to turn these lites off when desired.

As to the other suggestion about the finish of these lenses, you are out a little bit ahead of me. I have been planning to leave these lenses white and have the letter designation lazer engraved in the top face and then black it in with paint. I may still do them that way. However, I had also just recently been considering that when one lite is on the lite underneath might bleed over into adjacent lenses underneath; so I was thinking that perhaps I should paint the underside of the lenses black to eliminate that problem, if is turns out to be one.

Now your idea about painting them black and engraving the letters out is going to deserve some serious consideration. Actually that will solve another small issue that I wouldn't even mention , except for this discussion, and that is that the little rocker switches I found are black. I was thinking that finding them in white would match the lenses better, but I doubt that I could find them in white. Black lenses will match the black switch better, and will match just about everything else in this whole converstion project.

Thanks for your input. Jerry

Another thought I had about the apparent gap between the lenses and the leather is to simply mount the lenses a little below flush. That way the nice curved edge of the leather, which I favor, is still apparent, but the upper edges of the lenses are less obvious. Here is a picture.

To the extent that I may appear to some of you as if I am "in the weeds" with this indicator lite effort, I have also been on track with the overall development. I have finished the tooling for the 5-speed version of the forms, put it in the machine, and tuned it up enough to for a few of those. They are out in the shop and I have to go to work shortly, so it will be this evening before I can post some pictures of that component.

Jerry

Here is a picture of the 5-speed version of the lower trim piece together with the one I have previously made, now modified, for the auto version.

I have also included a picture of the little rack I made to hold the lenses so they can be lazer engraved; and a picture of the bucket of remaining lense I have spent a little time making. I have about two and a half dozed lenses made, so that will probably be more than enough to fulfil whatever the interest might be in this conversion.

Jerry Feather

Hi Jerry,

What sort of time frame do you expect before you can ship the first units, also any ideas on cost yet?

Mark

You know you have done such a nice job on all of this, I have to ask if you will have a black automatic console for sale.

Hi Mark: I think the price for this conversion is going to be $400 to $500 for the basic components, with the price range allowing for some variables. I expect the shifter position indicator lite module, if it works, will add about an additional $100 to $150. These prices will be for the customer's conversion "kit" set up with their choice of configuration and then covered in black leather. Other coverings will/may be extra.

An additional option will be my making a custom conversion of the customer's center console shipped to me. I think that will add about $200 to @250 to the price. That may also entail shipping the customer's double DIN Nav unit to me, unless it happens to be the same as one I have myself that I can use for fitting.

Packaging and shipping will be in addition.

For timing, I would like to have a few of these ready to ship by the end of November. Custom conversions may have to wait until later depending on my time. One thing that may holds me up is the design and fabrication of the air vent connector which I can't design until I get one of these conversions ready for and installed, at least physicallty, if not electronically, in one of my cars.

An additional major concern I have is final development of the 5-speed version of this project since I don't have one readily available to check the fit of the lower trim piece I have recently fabricated.

The timing published here is really very "soft!!!" I hate working against the clock or calendar in my spare time projects such as this, but I will keep at it and see how it progresses.

Jerry Feather

I haven't been entirely dormant on this FLUSH Console conversion, but have been a little distracted both here and at work.

I have been working on the indicator lite set-up for the auto shifter version of this conversion and that has taken a lot of busy work. Now I need to take my car apart in the console area to see how this is going to work mechanically and then do a little wiring of lites and switches I still need to develop a little "foot" for the shifter shaft for the switches to pick up the shifter position, and then hope I have or can instill enough adjustment for this system to work in the field. I have that in mind and just need to pick up a piece of suitable plastic to machine the feet out of.

I also discovered in casual conversation about this with a good friend who has an 89 S4, but which I has thought was an automatic, that it is actually a manual. I am trying to get him to let me do one of these conversions in his car so I can finalize this conversion more accurately for those cars. Im not sure how well off he is to buy the NAV unit which I think might hold that up.

Here are a couple of pictures. One shows the little lite lenses that I have had lazer engraved with the letters and numbers and which I have painted in the letters with black paint. The other picture shows the switch bar that I have designed to hold the mini micro switches that will be picking up the shifter position off the shifter shaft in the autos. These items will all be grouped together in another piece of plastic for a frame, and the whole thing will become the shifter lite module. Then it will be fastened to the under side of the shifter trim piece to the left of the shifter recess. Final development of that depends on my taking the console out of my car, as I mentioned.

Jerry Feather

Jerry your work is second to none! i just stumble upon this thread and as i was reading and seeing the development of this mod I was soooo excited and I to wanted to know when I could purchase this product from you. I must be honest and say the prices of this mod has down-turned my excitement :^(. If I'm correct, its, lets say $450 for panels, $125 for indicator, and $250 for u to do the conversion. I will forgo the $250 for most of use will be handy enough to mod it ourselves, so that leaves us with $575 + shipping. Now i may be wrong ( and i am broke like a lot of Americans rite now ;^) ) but it sounds a little steep to me and will definitely cut down on ur volume. The hard work is done now isnt it ( mold making ) and im sure u can mass produce the molds fairly cheaply. I would think lowering the price to more like $300 or so and moving quantity may be a better business plan. All it will take is someone saying that that cost is out of their range and for them to just make a fiberglass mold using cardboard as thier template for the center console and selling them for $100 and that wouldn't be too hard to do. Thats just a thought but i love the work ur doing thnks :^)

Holy tedium, batman!
Jerry,
Were you not in the 90th percentile design (and mfg.) well over a month ago?
Would it be fair to say you could make a few covers, of both manual and auto, and get them in the hands of people who can try them out on their cars?
You could really learn alot from some "in the field" research here.
May I humbly suggest you offer a few up as "prototype samples" at a reduces price - just to get it going.
Clearly, it is your project and you chose your own course. No one is disputing your will and determination.
My concern, as already stated prior, is you are designing something to satisfy a small market share of automatic owners - the ones who don't have the gear indicator on the dash.
The ones the do have them own the earlier cars, and may not have $500 to throw at a custom dash insert, They are busy throwing money at 25-30 year old leather interiors.
Also pay attention to the fact that prospective buyer are watching.
Do you think all the folks with autos, that don't want the shift indicator, are going to want to pay a higher price because your development cost willbe embedded across your sales?
If you are having fun and enjoying your work... great! If you would like to make money, it may be time for reassessment.
I aplogize if I appear harsh. I call it honest. I have to make recommendations like this often with my clients "to keep them on track".
I also understand you don't take well to these recommendations, which may be why you didn't respond to my last one. I'm okay with that. I'm just trying to help.

My point of view
 

I don't have an automatic but I think that if you recess the light below the surface of the leather or other finish they will much easier collect dirt in those area's and will be much harder to clean.

My advice would be to make them flush with the surrounding surface area.

Nice work my compliments :bowdown:

My thanks to S4OYBD, Jim D., and Herman K. I am deliberating on all of your input, but will say a little about Herman's here.

The final version of lthe indicator lites will have them flush with the upper surface of the leather. However, I am still concerned about that tiny "gap" that appears more pronounced in the photos than in real life, but is nevertheless there. I am sure it is going to collect dirt and spilled coffee over time, but it will be subject to removal for thorough cleaning from time to time without interrupting the adjustment of the lite module. The only way to avoid that woud have been to pursue the first concept with having the lenses mounted on top of the leather. Since that version seems to be less desirable I have continued the development with the lenses coming up from beneath the trim piece and through the little holes that have been lined with leather.

Thanks for you thoughts. It is always a help to know what others are thinking and might desire for this project.

I am going to continue to think about the other two posts and try to have something so say about them this evening.

Jerry Feather

how about rounding them out so that they still protrude but the center will be high and the ends will be flush with the leather. like how water beads and sits on a flat surface

Hi S4OYBD. If I made them that way and installed them from the top that would not be too much different than the first version I showed. They wouldn't be flush but would be like a bead of water on a flat surface. Then I would still have to change my lite module design and actually build the lite and switch system into the lower trim piece, rather than the seperate module I seem to be committed to now.

I guess there is really no way to get away from the edge of leather wrapped "roundly" around the inside edge of the hole and pushing the straight sides of the lite lens up through the hole to flush with the leather surface. I think we are going to live with the dust and dirt that is going to accululate in there much like the crap that accumiulates around the keys on your keyboard. Since you won't be punching on them so much, or any, I don't think it is going to be too bad.

Look at all the nooks and crannies in your present center console and see if you can tell that my design is going to better or worse.

Jerry Feather

lol definitely not worse lol. wat are your plans for the automatic shifter? how do u plan to extend it?

I have not discovered a need to extend the shifter for the Auto cars!!!

Here are three pictures of the setting we are talking about showing the first leather covered prototype trim piece in place in one of my cars. This is the earlier version of the auto shifter trim piece which has now been modified to extend the shifter recess a quarter of an inch farther foreward, a quarter inch to the left and a half inch to the rear.

I wonder what the basis is for your question?

Jerry Feather

P.S. These pictures were taken with the shifter in park position which is the one that puts the shifter handle the closest to the console. JF

i was just thinking how short my aftermarket shifter was an that this flush mount would bring the surface up by a 1.25inches, so wasnt sure it that would cause problems or not. i guess not now :^)

What do you mean by how short your aftermarket shifter is?

Jerry

nothing i looked at it and ur rite on track

Whew! Dodged that bullet! I hope!

Jerry

Hi Jim: There is a lot of your post that I am giving a lot of consideration to, but I didn't want to repeat it all. As to the 90th percentile I suppose it is a lot like the homebuilt airplane that the guy is selling that is 90 percent complete. I wonder how much one might have to do to complete it. Or the 928 that is 90 percent restored. I built a home for myself and my family a few years ago and when I had the dirt work, the concrete, the framing done and it was dried in, I think I felt like I was, maybe not 90 percent but well over half way there. Then it took me a little less than five years of evenings and weekends to finish it.

Reccommendations? I wonder what was said about my not taking well to yours, or, I suppose, others of a similar nature? Actually I have given a lot of thought to what you have to say and I did before when you suggested I was in the weeds. I might have been in the weeds, and may still be, is some sense, but I guess I view it all as a necessary part of the development process. I didn't respond before because I am really at a loss as to just what to say or how to explain myself. On one hand you might just be right, then and now, but I can't exactly figure out how to do what I think you are suggesting. That's why I didn't come back before and why I am not doing a very good job doing so now.

For me, this kind of project has less of a tendency to allow staying the course and rather tends to branch out in smaller directions as it gets past the major components. It is really kind of an organic process both in the sense of going in unexpected directions at times and then more like a tree where it starts as a sort of trunk and then begins to develop several smaller branches each of which seems to take its own seperate development. Then, one branch cannot be developed until another is first and so on. It may seem like I am off course to many viewers, and that I am in the weeds , but I simply have to view it as staying in the same tree. I have been out of the tree a little, and posted about some of it, and some of it has nothing to do with 928's. Nevertheless, it is still the same tree that I hope to have leaf out for the benefit of myself and any others who might be interested.

On the other hand, I am proceeding a little in the direction you are perhaps suggesting, but without making any hay about it because it is really going to be part of the final development, and that is to take in one lister's console to try to do this conversion in the custom manner I previously suggested. I am doing that without having even envisioned the final part of the tree trunk which is the connector for the air vent that is going to get moved from the console to the upper insert and will be leaving a gap that needs to be filled in some way. I can't tell which way until I have a console out of one of my cars and the console trimmed out for this conversion, and I am not quite ready for that. Close, but not quite. I need some way to actually see this darn gap before I seem to be able to envision it. Even if I could see it in my mind's eye, I will need to figure some way to mock it up to measure it for the piece to be designed.

In any case the thing that disturbs me the most about what you have posted is not your suggestions at all, but rather your understanding that I am not receptive to other ideas. I think that is just a serious character flaw which seems to come across to others, including my wife, I think, but one I simply have to live with. I don't mean that I am not receptive, it is just that I guess I appear that way to others.

In short, Jim, the ONLY reason I haven't responded to your posts before now is that I have not been able to figure out for myself that you are correct. I'm going to keep trying though.

Jerry Feather

Hi Jerry, if you can do so, please make available some basic plastic filler pieces that would fit a console, replacing the typically broken, NLA pieces. Thanks!

What I think you are talking about is basic price theory. I have two degrees in Economics and I even taught Macro and Micro (Price Theory) Economics as a teaching assistant when I was in graduate school. What you are describing is a basic demand curve. The lower the price the more I will sell and the higher the price the fewer I will sell. However that curve by itself does not really tell much in any given situation. What you need is to superimpose over it the applicable supply curve. Hence the old phrase "supply and demand." In think in this case the supply cirve is much more difficult to create because there are more variables in creating it than one might expect.

When you superimpose the supply and demand curves over each other, their intersection is known as the equilibrium point--the point where the amount wanting to be supplied at a given price is the same as the amount demanded also at that same price. In our FLUSH Console conversion subject it is going to be difficult to find our equilibrium point. I think. You are right that if I were to lower my price expectation I could perhaps sell a larger quantity. However, quantity, whatever it turns out to be, is going to be kind of fixed. By that I mean I do not have an unlimited capability to produce the components for this or any other product I create. It takes me just as much work to make one of these as it will take to make the next, and that is taking into account that as I work up the development I am making it as repeatable as I can and am actually making several of many of the items in anticipation of some sales without the need to do the set-up for each individual item.

Rather than try to set the price at some hoped for equilibrium, I have had to set it at a level that makes it feel like it is going to be worth my time to make as many as might be wanted at that price. That is, in a way, touching on another economic concept which is known as "opportunity cost." That is what am I giving up in order to do this? When I add up the expected amount of time it is likely to take me to do one of these conversion kits or custom jobs, and set a price on my time, that is how I seem to have come up with at least the very loose projection of costs that I previously published.

In other words, I am not interested in maximizing production with my spare time in order to make 20 or 25 bucks an hour when I might do half as much at 50 bucks and have half the time left over to do something else.

Interestingly, getting back to the supply and demand curves, I seem to recall that somewhere to the right of equilibrium was the point of maximum profit. That would be where you are selling fewer than you are willing to at that higher price, but the profit from what is being sold at the lower demand is higher than at equilibrium.

I appreciate your input on this project and it is fun to exchange ideas with you. I hope your economic situation improves so that we can figure out some way that you can be involved with one of these conversions. Maybe at some point we can make you one of the "Test Mules" that Jim is trying to talk me into.

Jerry Feather

Hi Chris. Now, there is a post that I think makes a complete circle, at least for me. If you are talking about the lower trim piece that goes around the shifter in just about all of the cars, the one with the clock panel and such, I have that piece almost complete ready to form in the original forming machine that i developed the HOW TO thread I made about it. I never actually made any of them because I diverted the direction to this flush console project, but I have a pretty nice form that with a little more work can be put into service making those trim pieces as suitable replacements. Is that what you had in mind?

Jerry Feather

Well, the 928 market isnt for broke Americans. I think that speaks for itself. That's -not- Jerry's problem to fix, nor resolve. Go ask Porsche to cut you a break on a new 911...cuz yer a broke American. You might get a free coffee and a smile, followed by "come back later...".



Jerry's not out to kill everyone for the highest $ he can make and count us all as suckers..but..this wont be a mass-production kinda thing here im gathering. He'll have a ton of personal effort into each and every kit sold well after the initial development is done..and then after the 2 or 3 minor revs once you start to see idiosyncrasies in other peoples cars for some reason or another.


If its not paying him enough to make it feel fun enough to do given that it will take his personal time to do so..he wouldnt do it.

Jerry's time is the supply side of this IMHO, not of the kit itself.

Yes, thanks Jerry, I think there is a parallel market for the parts to repair the broken plastic consoles.

The manuals seem to take more of a beating than the automatics.

On three manual cars at my house, these parts are in bad shape:
The plate around the shifter;
the base of the console (actually part of the main console) in which it fits;
an insert to replace some or all of the panels hosing ashtray, clock and stereo head;
and thin surround trim all seem to break.

Re-popping any of these parts would be helpful.

Creating, as you may have already, inserts that take the place of some of them would be acceptable too.


(Sourcing the parts used is possible but for a series of reasons I'd rather have new patch parts. Nicole has metal patches for the console mounting to the tunnel, and even for the reinforcement of door pulls, for instance. These plastic parts would help many, many cars that simply aren't in the relevant set of potential buyers for the conversion kit. )

For Jimmy, here is a picture of the center console glove box that I developed some time ago that I think will enhance the flush console conversion I am getting close to finishing. This box is about inch and a half deeper than the original and the lid is hinged in the back. It is also much stronger than the original which is important because the main way folks get into and 928 requires much of thier weight to be put right on the lid. I think it will be useful for the accessories that one might want to go with the NAV,etc. unit such as IPOD and maybe cell phone and I don't know whatever else.

This one is covered in gray, but any to go with the flush conversion would be the same leather, mostly black as I have suggested before.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, is there a thread about this piece with pricing, etc.?

Separately, would the lighting on the automatic trans benefit from an inset lens of some sort, above the LED's? I realize this might require some sort of re-tooling. I apologize if it is impractical. However, sealing the lights with some sort of lens seems like it would solve a lot of the spilled coke issues and not throw out the baby with the bathwater in terms of your lighting pieces. I envision some sort of lighting module that plugs in to the inset which would use your lights in some sort of modular plastic housing. Just a thought.

Hi Michael. No, I have not started a thread about this glove box item because I wasn't a sponsor when I developed it and after I became a sponsor I have been busy with other of these projects.

However, I had formed about 8 or 10 sets of the plastic pieces, four of them each, for these boxes and I expect it will take me about a half day to finish one of them. I had planned to price them at $350 each, and may still later. Right now I will offer you one of these for $300 in Black leather of my availability and I expect to offer the first of these that are already formed as an addition to the flush conversion at $250 with the conversion. If you are interested in one send me a PM and we can discuss the availability.

Jerry Feather

Hi Michael. I am back in my personal regular member self here. As to the ideas you have for the indicator lites I am having some difficulty envisioning what it is you are suggesting. When I notice that your are using some of the same kinds of words that I have assigned to parts of this project, such as module and lens, I kind of think that I am already doing just what your suggestion sounds like.

In my case I am building a little lite/switch module that will fit under the lower trim piece on the left. The trim piece will have 6 half inch holes in it with the leather covering being cut and pulled down through the holes. The lenses in the module will be fit snuggly into the 6 holes from underneath the trim piece. This will leave the tiny crevice between the lenses and the leather. That is where the coke will be difficult to clean out completely. The LED's will be fit into the lenses , also from below, and will not be in contact with the coke or anything since they will be glued into the tiny hole in the lens.

If all of these lites/lenses are fit into some other kind of display fixture, if that is what you are suggesting, there is always going to be a gap or seam or joint between that and the leather. That gap is always going to be a place for stuff to accumulate, just like the crap that accumulates under the stainless steel trim ring around the kitchen sink. When you take that up there is always a mess under there. Here the lite module will be somewhat easier to take apart to clean, if needed or wanted.

There is also going to be a similar and more troublesome joint between the lower trim piece and the shifter boot and boot base.

I think the design is going to be pleasing and functional and efficient the way it is going, but I appreciate your input and look foreward to any further thoughts you might have on this effort.

Jerry Feather

Thanks Jerry. That looks like a very worthwhile item. I will PM you when I am ready to buy one.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I guess I wasn't very clear. If I can come up with a way to be more clear, I will post. Otherwise, I will STFU.

I'm slowly getting the parts together for this install when Jerry is ready with the final product. I'm going to put in the Hans/ Paul switchs, Pioneer Nav unit and do the speakers etc at the same time.jerry, are still looking at end December?

Glad to see you are still with me on this. I was afraid my former idea about doing the install only here on a custom basis was going to tend to delete you. I think I am going to be ready with at least a preliminary kit to ship sooner than the end of Dec.

I think what you and I need to do is start a thread by PM so we can work out some of your details and I will start getting stuff ready for your kit that is already developed. What Pioneer unit are you going to install?

Jerry Feather

I received a leather covered center console from one of our members who is kind enough to let me use it in some further development of this project. That is particularly helpful because I don't have any other way to determine how to accomodate two layers of leather between my new inserts and the leather covered console.

With His console I discovered two interesting things.

One thing is that his console, and 81S Euro, has a vacuum actuator afixed to the upper air vent which is in the way of the NAV unit, and will be more so when the air vent is relocated to the new upper trim piece. I am going to have to relocate it somehow and/or replace it with a similar, but perhaps smaller unit, to someplace that is out of the way and then figure out how to reconnect it so that it still works.

The later cars do not have this actuator, which is rigged to open and shut the flapper in the vent. I wonder when and where the transition took place?

The other thing I discovered is that, where I might have expected that one could remove the leather from the console and have a nice uncovered vinyl console, here the leather is actually put over a vinyl console that was apparently a reject from the forming process. What it appears is that they took the rejects or seconds and simply repaired the cracks and defects and then covered them in leather so the defects don't show. Nice way to make your seconds into premiums.

I am going to continue the development with this console and one of my cars, both with/for the auto trans, and try to finalize the program so it will be merchantable, both in the custom process in my shop and in the kit form for completion in the field.

I am beginning to get some ideas about how to form the air vent gap filler. I am hoping that will become more simple as that development takes place.

Jerry:

I've been gone for a while and just saw your recent progress. Congrats! It's looking better and better.

Say, I was wondering...is there a way to intercept the instrument panel's shift indicator signal instead of having to use all those microswitches? I haven't had a chance to look at the wiring dirgram yet, but I will.

EDIT: Looks like there are no good intercept points except at the CE panel. The shift indicator signals all go out through plug L on my 89.

Why wouldn't he ask for the most money he can get? Everyone else does.

I dont think that everyone else does. Most things have reasonable prices on the market, SOME things have wildly unreasonable prices on the market.

OOPS! It just occurred to me that not only is having a leather covered console to work with going to help me with this development, but It is also out of and will go back into a 928 with an auto. What occurred to me is that the 81S must have a 3 speed auto trans. In That case I think I will need one less shifter position to incorporate in the indicator module. Not only will that be a slight change, but now I have to wonder what the difference is in the shifter "throw" between each position. I am designing around the 4-speed and can measure the throw, but I have no idea what it might be with the 3-speeds.

I guess I am going to have to look for an OB around here to look at.

Another thing that occurrs to me as I write this is that I may also be needing to figure out how to incorporate the shifter indicator system on the right side of the shifter for the right hand drive cars. Talk about a snow ball!!!

Jerry Feather

One problem at a time..dont let feature creep kill the project. :)

Id like to buy this before im 50. :)

Feature creep? I am sure learning a lot of new expressions on this forum.

When is your birthday? 50th?

Jerry Feather

Feature Creep: Its what happens to high tech startups that never launch anything, because they're either afraid to launch without '..that last enhancement...' or ones that never launch anything, because something shiny that they just 'have to do...' comes up, and they fail to just LAUNCH something, that can be updated later.


And..soon, but not TOO soon, actually, plenty of time. But it'll feel like tomorrow when I get there.

OK, Great! I'll watch out for Feature Creep. Actually it can be a problem for me from time to time. I'll also keep in mind your 50th as a sort of deadline for you.

Jerry Feather

PM sent.

Jerry

With the help and persistence of Jimmy, I have been able to solve another of the problems that has been bugging me about the final stages of this project. You will recall that he and I went through a little sidetrack on this thread about finding some small instruments that we might fit into the face of this lower trim piece. Then with the additional narrowing of the available space, that whole idea seemed to go away.

Then I remembered solving a similar problem some years ago when I made a new instrument panel for my airplane. What I had to do there was make a new case for one of the istruments to get it to fit. With that older idea in mind I took three of Jimmy's gauges and took the insides out of them and then made new cases for them with much smaller faces than the originals which are about 2 1/4 inch with the bezel.

What I decided I could do is put these three instruments on the right of the auto trim piece with the clock at the top and two others just below and in line. Because the panel area tapers toward the rear, I made the instrument faces slightly smaller as they go back. The clock has a bezel that is 1 7/8 inches, the A/F flow is 1 3/4 inches and the oil temp is 1 5/8 inches. The 1 5/8 is a little small but not too bad for this arrangement.

Then today I went to the aluminum junk yard and found a really nice piece of aluminum tubing or more-like hollow bar in a nice high number alloy and made another sample of gauge case which I am showing here. I may make Jimmy's over, because this material gives me enough to leave a nice ring around it that I can use to mount these from inside. The original instruments would have gone in from the front.

For your information, the gauges Jimmy sent me are PROSPORT GAUGES and come in all kinds of instrumentations. They even have two kinds of clock--digital and analog. I think I am going to get an analog one and start finishing up my design around it. If anyone is beginning to think gauges for this conversion, I think this will be the way to go. I'll post a little later my thoughts about gauges and possible placements.

Jerry Feather

Here are two more pictures.

The new case I made has a 1 3/4 inch bezel, (if that's the right word for it?)

JF

I forgot..... Are you doing one for manual cars as well?

Yes, and here is a pictutre of the manual lower trim piece with these reduced-face gauges sitting on top where they might be placed.

Jerry

Oooo I like that very much! I wonder how that will fit with my stereo.....:-)

Your stereo will be eliminated in this conversion. It will be replaced by all of the entertainment stuff that is available in the new Double DIN Nav unit that you replace it with. It will have stereo and almost unlimited other stuff. I suggest that you do some shopping for a Pioneer, Kenwood, or Alpine Nav unit and see which one you like and which navigation system you might prefer. I am working with Pioneer units like the following:

Pioneer AVIC-x920bt

Pioneer AVIC-Z3

Pioneer AVIC-Z120bt

I wouldn't recommed anything older that the 920, although I also have a 910 I will probably put in one of my own conversions. There units are selling on eBay for around $500 to $900 new, depending.

Jerry Feather

Post 117. We already talked about it. Hehehheeh the top part you are making should work no?

OK, That's it: Jerry Feather for the Pulitzer Prize in Engineering and Innovative Design! All that can be said is WOW! Thanks, Jimmy.

Will those gauge cups be available separately? Beautiful.

I suppose it depends on what gauge, what finish and what size the "presentation" or face needs to be. I still have to fabricate backs for Jimmy's gauges and have the original lenses cut down and pressed in, if that is going to work. I suspect I am going to have to see if Prosport gauges will sell me some extra lenses in case whoever does that for me has some failures.

It took me right at two hours last nite to make two of these for Jimmy. I suspect that making the backs is going to take about 20 minutes to half an hour each, after I develop a little bit of tooling that will be needed.

With a little cost for material and who knows how much to have the lenses cut down and a little assembly time, I suspect that doing this on a one-off basis may not be cost effective. Nevertheless, if someone wants one or more and really needs the smaller display for a given application, then The answer is probably yes. I would need to know exactly what one might have in mind and then I would quote a price.

On the other hand, anyone with a lathe can make one or more of these.

Jerry Feather

Thanks Jerry. They look fantastic. I was thinking they would look great on the stock console bezel - exactly where you are putting Jimmy's. I cannot wait to see these in production on installed on some cars. Want!

I noticed the 3 gauges

Isnt there something now that can combine all that information plus a bunch more crap you wanna monitor in something smaller and more comprehensive?

The 3 round gauges have been in cars forever, isnt there something better? Seems like an antiquated means of measuring 3 small numbers

If there were something "better" available I think I might have come across it in the extensive search I have done to find some miniature gauges for Jimmy's needs. I don't think there is.

On the other hand it kind of sounds like you are asking if I or someone on here can come up with something. If so, that is beyond my capabilities. I do think it is touching on Hans' capabilities; so if he were to come up with something, perhaps similar to his lower switch module, it could be incorporated in my FLUSH Conversion development. Maybe I would have to design and fab a case for it.

Right now, if I am going to offer gauges in either of the two versions of my project, they are going to have to be a little different for each.

Briefly, in the Auto version, they will likely be arranged as with Jimmy's, in a row down the right. For the Manual version they will likely be arranged across the top where the extra space is located, much as with the original clock panel. In the Auto Version they will reduce in size; and in the manual they may be the same size or the clock may be slightly larger, especially if I continue to emphasize the Prosport Gauges, in which case the clock case needs to be slightly larger than I will want to make the others. Is that confusing enough?

Thanks for your interest. This might be "feature creep" but I don't think it is going to hold up the final development. Actually the thing that I am held up by right now is taking the time and effort to get the console out of my car for further development. Perhaps this weekend.

Jerry Feather

will the top "double din, hvac, vent" panel be able to get the leather treatment as well? do we send in our vents for trimming? i cant wait till you are ready for production! i have $$$$$ burning a hole in my pocket waiting for this!

When I discovered that I would be able to make new instrument cases for the Prosport gauges for those perhaps few who want instruments in the lower trim piece, even the clock, which is going to be somewhat redundant with the NAV unit, it kind of solved one of my concerns about this project; and that was what am I going to do when someone wants some or any instruments? I think that is solved for now.

I do still have an issue about how to make this conversion available. At one point I suggested that I would simply have to do all of them for you on a custom basis. That didn't seem to go over very well. The reason I was leaning in that direction was just what you are asking about now. That is, what to do with the air vent which is going to have to be removed, and how is that going to happen.

The first part of Ducman's question about the leather on the upper insert is that, yes, it will be covered with leather. Go back to the post I made some time ago about what that will look like when I provided pictures of a prototype with tan leather on both pieces. I didn't have that one fully assembled because I had the openings too tight. I have opened them up some, but have not covered another one with leather yet.

Now, the main question is about how to relocate the air vent from the console to the upper trim piece. I think that even with the leather covering on the upper insert the back surface of that piece is going to be left open so that the air vent can be cut out in-the-field and then glued into the insert. I expect to provide some direction about how and where to cut the vent out and how to trim it to fit. How to deal with the early cars that have a vacuum actuator associated with the air vent is going to be another issue. I am right now trying to develop some way to eliminate the original vacuum actuator and replace it with another smaller one out of the way and perhaps operating the flapper with some kind of bell crank to change the direction of pull so the actuator is out of the way of the NAV unit.

I don't know when the factory eliminated the vacuum actuator. I have one I am working with now that is an 81 Euro.

One possibility may be to replace the air vent with the later version, whenever that came into production, but I don't know what kind of electrical issues that will raise; nor about the availability of later consoles to cannibalize the air vent out of. Or, maybe I can make the parts necessary to operate the older air vents with the existing lever which now simply operates a switch.

Jerry Feather

if you look at my posted picture, with the nave unit placed as is, there is no problems with the vacuum actuator. the early cars vacuum lines will be simple to extend if needed. the only thing that i can think of that will be a fun thing to play with is the cable for the vent door. kind of like a throttle cable, so may be just cut a longer one.

Ducman, here is what I had to say about your project some time ago. I think it still applies now for the most part. The gauge development I have come up with is newer than this post; and it is going to require you to switch to the Prosport Gauges. The two gauges you are talking about can be reduced to 1 3/4 or even 1 5/8 inch and placed in the clock-panel part of the 5 speed lower trim piece. You ought to also consider the prosport digital or analog clock for the same area. I think all three will look really great in your conversion.

I see that you do not have the vacuum actuator that is in the 81 console I am working with. I don't know what you are referring to as the cable to be extended.

Ive always wanted something like this in a car..


http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_930.html

You want data..I got yer data _riight heere_....

Wow, Gus. That certainly has a lot of stuff to watch. Actually I have one of their smaller engine monitor units in my airplane. I wonder where we could put something like the whole unit in this flush conversion?

Now, I suppose we could get someone to take the electronics to a much higher level so all we had to do is think of the gear we want and leave the shifters completely out. Short of that, at least for the auto version, I'll bet we could configure the gear selelction into a series of buttons and put them in the center of the steering wheel. I'm not sure what to do with the manual shifter except, again, just rig it so you would only have to think of the gear you want. In either case there would then be ample room in the lower trim piece for this JPI unit.

It's sure be one hell of a $5000 "instrument" upgrade...


CHT probes...ya..that'd be a challenge.

That would sure take care of some of the clutter in my car...

http://928.jorj7.com/gauges/1118-223718-01.jpg

Heh..sure would.


Also..running lean of peak...the worlds first 35Mpg 928 at 80mph on cruise control down the highway.

That clutter is awful. Can we please get back to three gauges?

Does anyone wonder where or how we are going to place three gauges, or even two, and then place the rear AC controls, all in the lower trim piece? Does anyone care? Is anyone going to need or want that?

Jerry Feather

I need blank plastic cover(s) for the console openings and would figure that out custom for each car.

None run clocks. One car displays fuel pressure and AFM ratio. Would like to eliminate ashtray.

+1 I would like blanks as well so I can custom fit the things I would like...

why dont you let the people that want gauges figure out how to mount them, being that im sure everyone has there own pref on gauges..

I wonder just how "blank " you guys might have in mind. The project starts with a flat sheet of "blank" ABS plastic. Each stage after that also tends to produce a "blank" up to the point of covering it in leather. The "blankness" tends to come in stages including a series of reinforcement doublers glued in kind of in between the stages of cutting openings. This is primarily relating to the upper insert. Some of the space in the upper insert might be utilized for instruments, but only if the user is not going to incorporate double DIN.

The lower trim piece is less complicated in that there is not going to be doubler material put inside of it. The space for instruments is limited in each version of this piece, and the choices of placement are relative few.

Nevertheless, these suggestion are deserving of further consideration. Thanks.

Jerry Feather

I finally got the center console out of my silver car so I can complete this development. I have cut the air vent out of it and will be putting it in the upper insert. I have also trimmed some of the plastic out of the lower area so I can do the final (hopefully) fitting of the indicator light/switch module.

I have also figure out how to design, and, I think, fabricate the air vent connector to fill in the gap between the moved/rotated slightly air vent from the console to the upper insert. I think that is going to be less complicated than I was expecting and can be done without the need to build some kind of forming machine to make it with.

I also finished the second version of instrument gauge bodies for Jimmy and now need to decide if I should leave them shiny aluminum or paint them black. I also have arranged with Prosport Gauges to sell me a bunch of spare gauge lenses so I can make some of these for anyone who might like gauges in their lower insert.

Again, I think there will be space in both versions of the lower insert for three gauges, and, in those cars with rear AC, room for the two controls with the gauges. In the manual version the gauge fronts will likely be reduced to 1 3/4 inches and be placed left to right in the new clock panel which is located where the ashtray was; and in the auto version they will be top to bottom starting in the upper right and in a line below. These will be like or similar to Jimmy's with each one getting a little smaller as they are placed lower.

I hope to have more of this done this holiday weekend, which will give me some extra time, aside from putting the tree up.

Jerry Feather

any up date Jerry>? i have Xmas money burning a hole in my pocket...

Hi Ducman82. Sorry for the delay in getting back to your request for an update. I have been a little hung up on doing the gauge modification for Jimmy and doing some restoration of my center console so I can put it back in and finally work out the gear indicator lite component.

Right now I am thinking that simply using the lower shifter trim piece itself as the base for this lite module may be the way I have to go. Nevertheless, I still have to get the console back in the car to finalize that.

Since your car is a 5-speed the lites are not applicable. However, to determine that my lower trim piece for the 5-speeds is correct I need to put one in a 5-speed car. I have one available here that I can use, but it is in its own garage, so I have to go there and take it apart to see how close my trim piece is to correct. When that is done I think I can make a kit for installation in your car.

I have been waiting to get two or three console conversions covered so I can take pictures of them and then convert this thread over to my Sponsorship and start a commercial thread there. In the meantime I would invite you to PM me so we can talk about exactly what you have in mind for your car and perhaps I can start getting that together for you.

Jerry Feather

Hi Jake. I thought I would respond to your PM here by way of an update on this project. I have been making only slow progress this month. I find it difficult to get myself out to the shop in the evenings because it is so cold and it takes over an hour to warm the shop up with my heater. By then I am about ready to come back in. So, my progress has recently been isolated mostly to the weekends. Too, I havet been able to take any afternoons off to work at home lately since I am training new help at work.

I would recommend looking back at this thread, Jake, to see how the HVAC and the warning/AC switch panels are going to be moved into the upper insert and mounted there. Too, I am taking the upper air vent out of the console and then glueing it into the upper insert. I am still developing the air flow connector for the space between the relocated vent and the air box under the dash.

The "stereo," or in my case, the Double DIN Nav units, are going to be mounted in a rack affixed to the console. Then the upper insert with the two relocated panels mentioned above and with the relocated air vent will be installed into the Flush position and the Double DIN placed into the rack fron behind.

Jake, as to the leather covering for BOTH the inserts and the console, I have not done that yet. I have a leather covered console from Jimmy that I am trying to use for this part of the development, and so far I am hoping that this can be done with leather that I have found that mikes out about .035 to .040 inch thick rather than 050 which is more common. The space I have allowed in these gaps is about 060, so the double thickness of leather is going to be a problem. I am hoping that I can cram two layers of the thinner leather into the gap, but if not I will have to skive one or both of them in the critical areas.

I am currently delayed in the leather covering because my trim guy who is going to help with the leather is moving his shop right now and there is no place to do this work.

Thanks for staying in touch.

Jerry Feather

Jerry, Thanks for the update. I mentioned earlier that I have an additional vinal console (83/84?) purchased from Mark A. The leather console you have is the 81 original but if the vinal presents fewer problems I will gladly forward. I believe the only difference between the two is the later model has the rectangle clock. As always, I can't wait to get my hands on your masterpiece. Stay warm, Jimmy.

PS No longer blue, this 81 Euro is now wrapped in beautiful GARDS RED!

Hi Jimmy. I already have a vinyl console that I have been restoring for your project. As I mentioned before, your console was deformed enough on the right side to allow a pretty wide gap between the upper right side and the upper insert. I am beginning to find that most of these consoles are likely to have some deformation issues that I may have to deal with in trying to keep the new inserts to fit snuggly like I planned for them.

As to leather versus vinyl for the final finish, it will make no difference whether the one I am starting with has leather or not since the leather covered console from the factory started with vinyl. The leather is simply extra; and that is what I am having to deal with in terms of the extra thickness of two layers of leather.

I have the gauges finished and ready for anodizing and have fabricated the mounting points for them which I will glue in in the next day or so. I am still waiting for a nice day to do the final fitting of the indicator lites and I will have that part of the lower insert done. I have the upper insert finished and ready to cover with the rest. Getting close, very close.

Jerry Feather

any updates on this Jerry? even though i had my console recovered, im still interested in this (if you think i can make it work)

Hi Ducman, I have been busy reorganizing my workshop so that I can gert back to this project and the wheel well liner project in particular. I am glad to see that you still have some interest since I last suggested that your having had your console covered already was either fatal to the project or fatal to the new covering.

From what I have seen of the recovering that you have had on your console I am sure that it is JFB. However, with the french seams all around the upper edge of the console recess, that tends to add two layers of leather. My console conversion is designed to basically allow for one layer of leather and that is going to be the leather on the insert pieces. I had allowed about .060 of space in the gap between the console and the inserts. I have found one hide that is about .035 to .040 thick and think that I can both cover the console with it and cover the inserts with it and force it to fit together since there is a little give in the conponents.

I don't think that I can get the pieces to fit with three layers of leather in the gap, especially if the two on the console are the usual .050 thick. I am afraid that you are going to have to sacrifice the new covering on your console to get this conversion to work with your console.

However, rather than take it apart, I will probably be suggesting that we recover a substitute console for your project with the thinner leather and without the french seams around the top. Then the leather will match the inserts and you can use the other covered console in one of your other 928s.

I'll expect to get back to his project in about two weeks when the space in my shop opens up again. In doing the reorganization I have found that it got very much worse before is has just started to get a little better, but the work stations are still not yet cleared up. Thanks for staying tuned.

Jerry Feather

Jerry: I love your flush console trim idea, but at this time what we really, really, really need are the rear fender liners. They are totally falling apart on many of our cars, and every time we have to remove and replace them for PSD maintenance or rear marker access, etc, they get worse.

I would urge you to focus on those first, so that

a. we can order them
b. you won't lose out to someone else who thinks you're never going to finish this project

PLEASE do these rear fender liners!

Did I say PLEASE???

Thanks Nicole. I am going to do my best to meet my obligations AND your suggestion.

Jerry Feather

Nicole is right. Just the other day, I noticed a 50% large chunk of the forward liner in the driver's rear disappeared. It probably deteriorated enough to start flapping around and as soon as it touched the moving tire, *crunch*.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C :eek: 475hp/460lb.ft

I'm still looking forward to the flush console, not too bothered regarding the liners (mainly because I haven't checked mine!)

^^^ There is not much to check on your car, because you don't have them. They weren't available until 1991.

My suggestion is to get one product done then move on to the next.

Seems that fender liners have a much higher demand than your flush kit.

Bump :)

Shhh.. don't distract him from the wheel well liners.. they're almost there! :D

Thanks for the bump of this thread. However, I have to wonder why. I have fairly well completed this project, at least in its basic intended form. What I found however, was that of the limited interest shown in this thread just about everyone wanted something like it but with this or that modification.

Jimmy helped with some development, which took too long, but which also involved some special considerations that are pretty non-standard and which are not actually complete yet. I sent him enough of the basic concept version to put his car back into service, but don't know yet where he is with that. I will still complete the special aspects of his conversion and send them, but only after I get my other commitments met with the liner project.

Frank wanted some other special considerations for this conversion which I finally decided I was not interested in and I still need to send some of his stuff back so he can do his own thing with it.

Actually Mark is the only guy that had an interest in the project the way it was intended, but given the complexity of having the completion done in the field by unknown people of unknown competence, and the fact that he in not in any hurry, I have not gotten further into his "kit." I'll get to him when the time comes.

Basically, The recent posts in the thread about the wheel well liners is the course that I am on right now and will be for a time yet.

Thanks for your interest, and for the bump.

Jerry Feather

Somehow I missed this from the beginning and wander through the entire thread today, and now it is game over? That us a complete shame.

If you have any of the proto's left, please let us (me) know.

Nice work, and I was drooling over your machine shop!

No, the project is not over and I actually have several of the basic components formed and available to trim out for some kind of finished kit. I haven't really figured out just what a kit ought to be, but that will come in time.

I am just one guy that does this in my spare time from my daytime job and so the production capability is kind of limited. The fact that I am presently concentrating on the liner project does not mean that this project is dead. It is just on a back burner. Let me know by PM just what youyr interests are and if something can be fit in with my work on the liners and I'll let you know where you might stand.

One thing that I think is the best approach to this project is to have you send me your console, or a substitute, for conversion, but that does not mean that is the only way to do this. My main concern about having you do much of this in the field is how we are going to get you to be able to cut the AC vent out of the console and then glue it into the upper insert which will have already been covered in leather. Then is the problem of making an upper insert that will adapt readily to you particular NAV unit, especially if yours is not the same as one I have used in the development.

Thanks for your interest.

Jerry Feather

Geez. The interest is born out of a few recent threads regarding alternative clock and console threads. If you currently have a five speed, flush, undrilled, shift surround, I would be very interested. Otherwise, I will wait until you bump your own thread.

Black, There seems to be a miriad of various interest in things relating to the center console. When I get to it I am going to start a new thread about the analog clock that I have almost completely developed, but because of the need to spend a lot of time with my mill on the basic component for it I have not seen fit to post anything about it. I do have most of the tooling developed for it including a a machine to make a nice plexiglas rectangular-like lens for it. Too, it is likely to be kind of expensive to provide, so given the nature of our 928 market, I have not been too anxious to put the rest of the development time into it when other things are more pressing right now. More about it later.

Jerry Feather

H Thank you for the explanation.

So if I send you a gift certificate for Do-ALL would that count as trade :-)

any update on this? i know you have been busy.

Yes, I am busy right now on the rear wheel well liner project. I think that is going to have me pretty busy for a while, especially if it works out and I go into production to try to satisfy the interest.

In regard to the Flush Center Console conversion, I have that almost complete except for a little final development of the indicator lites in the shifter insert. I have one nearly done for Jimmy, but sent him a blank one for the time being to try to get his car going now, but haven't had the time to finish up the lite version of his insert yet. I'm not sure where he is with his conversion.

For Jimmy I trimmed out a replacement center console with some leather that I found that is a little thinner than most, about .035 to .040 thou, when the usual thickness is about .045 to .050. I have allowed about a sixteentn of an inch between the inserts and the console which is about .063, so the space is limited. With Jimmy's I did both the console and the inserts with the thinner leather, but getting them together was really tight. I think that is about the limit for leather covering in my conversion.

If someone were to cover their console with the usual leather of about .045 to .050 leather and then hope to put my inserts in to it with even the thinner leather that I have a limited supply of in .040., I doubt that it will fit. Then, if someone were to have their center console covered with the usual pattern of leather with the really nice french seams along the top edge, that means there are two layers of .050 leather down the inside edge of the console where the flush inserts are intended to go and there is only .063 space there for it. With the leather on my inserts and the two layers of leather on the console, there is no way.

Then there is the delima that I see, or at least perceive, and that is that for someone to do this conversion in the field with their own console. I am having a difficult time conceiving of someone cutting the AC vent out of their insert and fixing it into the upper insert of my conversion. I had enough difficulty doing it myself, and then covering the result with leather, so that I cannot see someone doing it in the field and then glueing it into the insert after I have already covered the isert with leather.

What the boils down to is that the best way for me to try to provide this conversion is for the user to send me their console and have me cut their vent out and glue it into the insert then cover both inserts with leather and return them. I will also need their double DIN nav unit in order to fashion the correct mounting in their console.

In short, there is simply too much in-the-field fabrication in this conversion to make it very feasible and therefore affordable. Or not.

Jerry Feather

Can we clone Jerry, and then have one Jerry work on the fender liners, and the other Jerry on the console inserts?

If not, I stand by my word: Fender liners are more urgent than the console inserts - as much as I'd like to see those done as well.

Today I think I made some significant progress. Probably enough to realize that there is going to be some interesting difficulty in trying to mount these liners in all the cars. Interesting because just about every version of the car is likely to have to have different mounting brackets developed; and that may also be for each side.

One of the things I found today is that I think that the right side of the inner car is not quite semitrical to the left. What I was working on today was the fitting of the right liner inner half to the S4 that I am working with. I found that the liner would not fit as far foreward as the left one does. There is a reverse curved panel in the foreward inside "corner" of the well that I have formed around, but it seems to be a little too tight on the right side as compared to the left. What I am going to have to do is form a flat spot on the right inner half to allow for the difference.

Another thing I think I found is the reason that the right top rear corner of the GTS factory liner has the squarish indent in it is to clear the fitting on the bottom rear of the plastic cannister thingy that is mounted in the very top of the right wheel well. I think it is a charcoal cannister for the fuel vent system, but what do I know. Anyway, my liner clears it except for the need to grind a little notch in the liner flange to clear the fitting.

I also developed a form piece that will form a lump or bump in the liner inner half that will clear the fuel line that goes up the rear of the inner part of the right wheel well. I'll form a next version of the inner halves maybe tomorrow and see how it works.

I finalized the design of the left two mounting connectors and will start working on making them in aluminum. I plan on using .075 sheet in 6061 T6, but I have to develop some method of bending them to shape; and I don't have a stout enough press brake to do it with. I'll have to look into that part of it. I used to have a friend here with a brake I could use but he sold it and moved away.

I find that the right front of the wheel well in the S4 has only three mounting points in the car. I think I can convert one of them into two points and that I can use the other two to mount a bracket or connector to that will have two or three points of connection the the liner flange.

For the rear of the right side there are simply no mounting points. However, there is a little stiffener brace at the bottom like on the left side that I can add two points to, the same as on the left. Then I hope to figure out how to connect to one or more of the fuel line mounting points for some more points in the rear.

With all this different bracketry that is apparently going to be incolved, I am beginning to wonder just how difficult these liner are going to be to mount in the field. I guess I have to start working on some extensive instructions.

Jerry Feather

Jerry,
I have a laser cutter and press brakes.If you send me a dimensioned drawing of the brackets, I would gladly donate the services and material to help with the forward movement of this most worthy project. Ed

And. That is a great offer. I'll give it some thought especially if I come up short on a brake that I can use here.

Jerry Feather

Thanks. I see that I have posted the progress report in the wrong thread. I guess I leave it there since they are getting a little mixed up, but tomorrow I'll post some more progress in the WW thread. Sorry.

Jerry Feather

I see that I have this progress report posted in the wrong thread. I'll make some more progress tomorrow on the liners and post it in the other thread. Sorry.

Jerry Feather

Is there an echo in here, in here, in here? JF

Hi Jerry: Thanks for the update!

You might want to keep updates on the fender liners in the other thread, and limit this to the console insert pieces - just to avoid confusion.

Duh! Is there an echo in here, in here, in here. Jerry Feather

Jerry,

Fender liners are top priority of course.

However - interested to know if you still have any of these laying around.

I have a spare console, and some time this winter. And have plans for changes including for the HVAC head unit update to a 3 knob type more modern design.

Do you have a flush top console part without any cutouts (or just vents) and ideally a lower with no clock (just flat) and a manual trans cutout (or no cutout at all).

Not asking you to mold one - but if you have one available - I'm interested in it AS IS (understood to not be a finished project). This would be for prototyping use.

I'd also be interesred in more offcuts of your flat source material (as you sent me with the cowl cover) I found very good uses for these in various projects.

I can handle lots of fabrication tasks (though not like you!).

Alan

Hi Alan. The answer is yes, I still have several of these Flush Center Console Conversion inserts, both upper and lower. And, in respect to the lower, both for the 5 speed and for the Auto shifters. The main reason I have not made any final progress in this project, aside from the pressing need for the WW Liners, as you suggest, is that the design as I developed it did not come out is such a way as to lend itself to compiling a kit and sending it out. It turns out to be more of a "system" to do the conversion and one in which new components and the console itself sort of grow together into the new configuration. After they are completed they can still be taken apart, of course, but doing the conversion is where the growing together comes into play.

I found that there is not a very distinct place in the system process that seems to me to lend itself for me to stop and then sent it out to the field for completion. That of course is based on my assumption that not too many of the persons who might desire this conversion are likely to be able to do any given level of fabrication themselves, nor can their mechanics, but where the line is between those capable and those who are not is unknown to me.

Given that you might be one who is capable to do some of the necessary fabrication at some point in this conversion, or someone who is willing to simply throw away what has failed in your efforts and either start over or give it up, here is the sequence of events that the system requires:

1. Fabricate the raw upper insert by compression forming in the forming machine with it all being heated in the oven.

2. Trim the raw formed upper insert, both with the bandsaw and then with the disc sander.

3. ABS glue the two strips of ABS doublers along the bottom edges of each side of the upper insert, the ones that will slip into the channels at the bottom of the console center openings.

4. Place the upper insert in the router jig and route the upper opening for the new air vent outlet location, and the bottom opening for the HVAC and AC/warning panel (these nest together, which might be a small problem for what you have in mind).

5. Glue some strips of ABS for doublers into the inside of the upper insert around the two openings that are now made which also end up surrounding the middle opening that will be made for the double DIN Nav unit.

6. Put the upper insert into the same router jig and re-rout the same two openings; then put the insert into the other router jig and rout out the center double DIN opening.

7. Install some additional doubling inside the upper insert for mounting the two components (HVAC and the other one) into the lower opening. If you are going to replace the HVAC head you will need to know if you are going to have space for it because it cannot be any bigger than the original and, depending on how it is going to nest with the other narrow panel it may also need to be smaller than the original.

8. Next you will need to remove the air vent body from the upper part of the console center recess and do it in such a way that you leave the two top mounting holes in the console (and they may need to be restored because they are usually broken.

9. Then you need to carefully trim the air vent body so it will fit into the top of the upper insert where you will need to glue it into place. This part and no. 8 above are the ones that I find are going to be pretty tricky and is the point that I kind of changed direction on this project from trying to do a kit and suggesting that I do the conversion in my shop with someone's console.

10. When the upper insert is glued together with the air vent body and it has the proper doublers in it for mounting the bottom HVAC components and the center double DIN opening is correct for your unit, it is then covered in leather. Now its is ready to be placed into the center console and the center will now be flush.

12. Now we will form the lower insert for the 5 speed.

13. Then it is trimmed in the same way as the upper insert.

14. Then we will need to cut out the opening in the bottom of the recess for the shifter.

15. Glue on the two doublers along the bottom edges as with the other insert.

16. There is no preformed opening in this insert for anything besides the shifter, so if nothing else is going to be mounted in it, cover it with leather.

17. Now remove some of the plastic cross bracing in the center console leaving only about one going across, as I recall.

18. Fabricate and install the appropriate kind of mounting tray for the double DIN unit and install it in the console. it needs to be of a nature as to become a substitute for some of the cross bracing that you have removed. It also need to be made so that when the Nav unit is mounted in it the face will be at the flush location.

19. Now the console can be mounted in the car and you can try to figure out how the back of the air vent is going to mate up to the air box under the dash, because with the vent in the new location there is a big gap between the two. I devised a unit for this, but I have only made one for Jimmy.

20. Now you need to fabricate a plate for the base of the shifter boot, one that when covered with leather will fit snuggly into the shifter recess. If it fits snuggly enough it may stay in position by friction, but if not you can glue it into the bottom of the shifter boot then put it into the recess and screw it in from below.

21. Now you can put the insert down over the shifter (with the shift knob removed) and push the lower insert into position in the lower part of the console.

22. Actually you will probably want to put the upper insert into the console first.

23. There are some other issues like hooking up the wires and such to all of it and one problem with the original HVAC is that the pin connector will no longer work because the new location for it does not allow enough room for it.

Now, Alan, do you see a place in this sequence where you think you might be able to take it over and complete it yourself and to accomodate your own components?

Jerry I'd be happy to take it on at step 2. Especially since the configuration of openings I want to build will be different from what you have shown.

What happened to the other thread (or the rest of this one...) - I can't seem to find it.

This latest posts dates to way back - but is all that showed up in a search for this...

I have pictures for you of the modified HVAC blower switch with pigtails attached

Alan

I am bumping this because I think there is some current or recurrent interest in this topic about now.

If I can find the most recent thread about this conversion I'll bump it too.

Bump just to bring this back to the forefront.

Why?

Something is reminding me of the old story about when the teacher asked is any of her students could use the word "unique" in a sentence. Johnny said if you want to catch a rabbit, unique up on it.

Why? Because I like threads like this... they inspire.

Good enough reason; and now someone else is interested in doing something like this, but without searching first.

Feather,
How are you coming along with your flush center console conversion?
Are they commercially available? (Sorry if this is a dumb question)
I am considering installing a Alpine iLX-107 unit in my 928. I assume, such a center console conversion would be a good way to go.
Thanks.
MN