James Bailey

It's naht a tumah

Epic exchange between Joseph and Mr. Kimble
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Arnold Schwarzenegger,Kindergarden Cop,Detective John Kimble,Miko Hughes
Quote
Kimble: I have a headache
Joseph: It might be a tumor
Kimble: It's naht a tumah! It's not a tumor....at all. "

Sorry but all this drama about something which is or is not !

mark kibort

but then try to explain how the water drained into the oil pan? 2 quarts!

They tested the oil cooler at 50psi, and 5 bar is 85psi. You would think that at least at 50psi, there would be some leaking.
Coincidence that I slightly overheated and the water runs into the oil? Ive been running the engine for a couple of hours like this and what changed?

has anyone seen warped heads before. doesnt it make sense that the warping could be at the outer edges of the heads?

mk

mark kibort

lets look at the facts. if the leak was in the oil cooler, more water would have been found in the oil pan. it seems the water leaking stopped at an equalibrium of the radiator height.

Sure, it would be nice to find the oil leak, but what if they are related. oil is thicker than water and under more pressure, slowely drips into the water under pressure. later, even the 12psi or so, barely pushes hard enough though the breech to loose much water. Then, all of the sudden, all the water drains out to level the water in the system.

I guess If I get a couple of old oil cooler fittings and weld them together, I could fab a "U" turn for the oil lines. then, if the water is leaking out the radiator it will come out the existing cooler and if the oil doesnt leak into the water we know where it came from. also remember, I did fill the water in the radiator and left it overnight. the water didnt move a bit.

a good test is more obvious. fill the system with water and see if it leaks out the oil pan with time. If it does, then we are looking at block, head or gasket, right?

mk

blown 87

I can not count the warped heads I have seen, and I have never seen one warp in one small area alone.

Cometic recommends a re-torque of the head gaskets in the paper work you get with the gaskets, few do though.
They also recommend installing the gasket dry, be damned if I am going to do that on one of my motors.

Multi layer steel head gaskets are installed by real mechanical hacks every day of they year, some with no prep and no problems.

Some folks that really KNOW what they are doing and take a great deal of care when building a motor have had issues with the Cometic head gaskets.

I have seen exactly two engines have broken water jackets after a wreck, both had major damage to the outside of the engine.

There is no such thing as a mild overheat, you either got it to hot or you did not.

You have had Greg Brown and myself, and others try to tell you how to go about figuring out what is going on with your engine.

You need to stop worrying and get to finding out what is wrong.

But here is my take, you either have a bad cooler or the head gasket has failed for what ever reason.

The very first thing i would do is a oil change, then take the cooler out of the circuit, flush the cooling system and install distilled water and do a chem check.

New fresh coolant can sometimes give a false positive on the block check.

GregBBRD

I've seen a whole bunch of 928 engines that have gotten really, really hot. The heads on the 32 valve engines don't seem to warp very easy. Head gasket issues on street engines are almost non-existant.

It is very tough to imagine a head gasket problem that allows both oil in the water and water in the oil, yet doesn't blow off the radiator cap as soon as the engine is started.

The common cracks that occur in the heads put water in the oil, but not oil in the water.

Cometic gaskets add another dimension into this problem. I've had a tough time getting these gaskets to work, for me. However, in my experiences, they usually just "seep" water between the layers, allowing water to get into cylinders or to the outside of the gasket. "Bars Leak" does help this.

Certainly, the cracks that occur in the main webs of the 928 engine can put oil in the water and water in the oil. These are rare in street engines, but do occur in race engines.

I'm flabergasted that the radiator/oil cooler tested fine, but Mark Kibort does seem to have "unique" experiences. Still think that this should be fairly easy to isolate. I'm not trying to say anything here, but Mark might have a slight tendency to like suffering and torture.

mark kibort

This is why im asking the top guys, what they think!

Its really puzzeling. especially, since the water left the reservior and emptied into the oil . It did this in a cold state too.

At first it was just a little oil. maybe it seeped out when it was stored and shipped around for month with no water in the system. but then there was no issue with the water level going down. actually, I had to add oil after a few days of driving it around the block. 5 days later, no water in the reservior, and an almost full radiator.

as far as the gaskets go, Bill and I were very reluctant to put the motor together with one torqueing. Even the Cometic site says no need to retorque. However, maybe they are talking about torque values, and not angle torqueing, becuase what Bill and I saw after taking the angle torque steps, was frightening. basically, little torque after the final steps. we did the sequence again and what a difference. we had to fight to get the last 90 degrees set. subsequently, the engine has been perfect for 30 or so race days and lots of street miles. Then, the accident, and reinstallation and the overheating. Yes, it overheated, albeit for only a few seconds the light went on. Im sure it could have got hotter, but it was shut off after the light came on.

Now, I guess Ill start with adding the water into the system and see if it leaks out the radiator oil cooler or out the oil pan.

mark kibort

well, Im alll ears. If you dont want to say anything yet, lets try to fill it with water and see what happens cold. if it drains out the oil pan, then we know we have something. If not, i guess Ill fill it with oil too, and see if I can fabricate a fitting to join the oil lines together.

Also, head gaskets problems are strange, at least the one we had with scots 5 liter. It was fine around town, but did fail the head gasket chemical test, but on the track, it would push all the coolant out after 7 laps. around town and to the track, no issues. That kind of makes me want to do the head gasket chemical test too. we have enough blue fluid for a quick test.


mk

blown 87

Mark, just because something tests good, it does not always mean it is good.

I would listen to GB, he may have some insight.

Charley B

I've overheated three 928's with no evident problems resulting. The Euro has overheated quite a few times, and i mean overheated. These heads are not fragile in that respect.

Do I understand you correctly in that when you found the water settled in the pan, your reservoir was empty but the radiator was still full?

SharkSkin

It's not really clear what the sequence of events was. I'll speculate and you correct me where I'm wrong.

• Engine was hot, coolant system pressurized
• Car was shut down and left to sit for a week.
• Oil discovered in oil sump.

Residual pressure could have forced coolant into the oil once the oil pressure dropped on shutdown -- the cooling system stays pressurized for quite a while after shutdown. 2 quarts is the high end of what I'd expect to see in this case, but if your cap is not relieving at 15 psi who knows what the system pressure might have been. It's possible for this to happen with an oil cooler that passes a pressure test when cold; in this case two variables have changed between normal operation and test conditions: (1) temperature, a crack may widen with heat... (2) pressure on the opposite side of the heat exchanger in test condition vs heat soak after shutdown.

Also note that oil pressure can reach something like 8 bar in parts of the system; not sure if his applies to the cooler. As was mentioned above, cracks may not leak until a certain pressure is reached. In any case, testing the oil cooler at less than 5 bar seems a bit pointless.

mark kibort

let me recap the sequence, because its the reason that figuring this out is driving me nuts.

car has an accident. header is bent on passenger side slightly, header pipe dented pretty bad on #2.
engine start, no issues, but rubbing flywheel timing ring on bell housing.
system holds pressure, after getting to operating temp
engine transplant
engine starts and gets to tempurature, 5-10 times. pressure holds normaly for about 30min

car starts t be driven on the street around the block, and pressure builds normally, and holds after shut down. redlight comes on because I dont have cooling fans hooked up and Im only driving 30mph in 1 and 2nd gear around the block. I coast back home after shut down

I notice a tiny bit of oil in water that is only distilled.

a few more drives and the last drive with fans , but now I have a backfire when reving out. this is due to the cracked distrib cap. its fixed and the car runs and revs out great. water pressure still seems to hold normally. more oil in the water after cool down. oil looks low, so I add a quart. looks like a very thin layer of dark red oil in the reservior

I mop up the oil in the reservior with paper towels and find that that is a very think layer. pressure is out of the system.

next day, water level still full, and I see there is still a layer of oil in the reservior. I just leave it, suspecting the radiator cooling circuit.

leave the car for 5 days, when I open the hood, the water has drained out of the overflow and the oil level is way way high..

without starting it. I drain the coolant to see slightly oilled water. so light that it just goes down the gutter without guilt. I pull the oil lines and water and lumpy oil comes out. I drain the oil from the pan and 2 quarts come out like a faucet. very clean water and then pure oil.

since the water over 5 days into the oil, i suspect that small breech might have been in the heads, expecially since the water level stopped at about head level. if it was block, it might have been lower.

radiator checks out ok, but tested at less than the desired pressure, of 85+ psi, only 50psi.

maybe its worth checking it again, or fill with water to see gravity leaks in the system and then fill with oil and bypass the oil cooler to rule out the radiator.

Mike Simard

Mark, have you tried a different radiator?

If I were you I would have gotten bored during typing midway through the first post on this and gone out, pulled the engine and taken it all apart but that's just me.

What happens when a different radiator is in place?

mark kibort

The radiator hasnt been swapped. I dont think its the issue, especially since it tested out ok, albiet at lower pressures. the main issue now, is that it leaked water into the block and pan at no pressure. doesnt that sound like an engine issue? before I pull the engine, i do want to exhaust all possiblities.

If i can narrow it down to the passenger side head, isnt it easier to remove one head on an S4 than pull the engine. But then again, if it is more than a head, the engine has to be pulled anyway, and the head needs to go back on to pull the engine. Plus working on the intake isnt that much fun while the engine is on the car, so Ill probably just pull the darn thing.

Im just trying to see if it is something simple, like the radiator,but it sure doesnt look that way.

FBIII

You can't determine what the cause is until you isolate the oil from the water in the radiator. You need to disconnect the 2 oil lines from the radiator and figure a way to connect them temporarily.

mark kibort

Yep, thats what happened.

It almost like the engine had a crack that compromised the high pressure oil passages, and then after more stress was in the engine from putting an actual load on it, the crack got bigger and allowed water to travel into the block and then pan. Just guesses right now, but something aint right!

mk