Oil in the water. what does it mean?? UPDATE: WATER IN THE OIL TOO!! :(
12-29-2009, 04:14 PM
#46
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Just talked to the radiator shop. seems they fixed some minor leaks on the waterside, which I didnt really care about, its the oil side that I was worried about and that seems to be fine. going to pick it up on the lunch hour. they are not giving me a straight answer on what they found, so Ill report back.
Looking more and more like a head gasket or warped head. make sense, as the water level only dropped to near the top of the radiator, which is about head level. if it was block crack, the water would have been lower I would guess.
Looking more and more like a head gasket or warped head. make sense, as the water level only dropped to near the top of the radiator, which is about head level. if it was block crack, the water would have been lower I would guess.
12-29-2009, 04:40 PM
#47
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Remember, he CRASHED the other car. This is the car he got from Mark Anderson. It's probably the radiator that came with that car.
12-29-2009, 04:44 PM
#48
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12-29-2009, 05:19 PM
#49
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BTW, what would a sarcasm smiley look like? 
12-29-2009, 06:24 PM
#51
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original, but still in fine condition. no leaks and they look good.
12-29-2009, 06:31 PM
#52
Captain Obvious
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Now when you get the rad back, put a loop on the oil cooler line and see if the coolant stays put. The pressurize the coolant system and see what happens.
12-29-2009, 06:43 PM
#53
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I said I did a full compression test, and thats kind of hard to do with out pulling the plugs. :wink: So, the plugs looked as they always do. rich looking, no coolant. looking in the bores, the piston faces look carboned out and dry, no fluid came out the holes, as I did that check first with no plugs in the engine, just in case.
So, the radiator came back from the shop with no issues. they did replace the "O" ring on the oil cooler, but the cooler didnt leak under the pressure test.
Now its on to the engine possibilities.
first, I saw oil in the water reservior. I dont know how that got there, but water level for the past few weekends has been good, and actually oil went down a little, if not from leaking, from driving it around the block for about 20miles and lots of start ups and warm ups. I added a quart of oil. oil always looked good. I did have that overheat light come on, but shut down after a few secs. maybe it warped the heads? I also did a few hard runs in 2nd to 3rd gear when the car finally started running well. (remember, I had those backfires due to the cracked distrib cap, which could have damaged something.
1. Maybe there was a crack in the block that got worse due to pushing the engine.
2. Maybe the backfiring damaged the head gasket, but that would not explain why the compression is still good, but maybe we need to do a leak down as a slow leak, might not effect compression with the traditional way of testing. (cranking)
3. Maybe a cracked head? but it would have to be through the head so that the high pressure oil could seep into the water passages, but then, when not running, I cant seethat much water running into that crack and into the tiny oil passages to get to the pan. So.............
4. Maybe there is a warped head, and it would have to of occured by the high pressure oil passage at the rear or front of the heads (depending on the side), for the oil to leak into the water, and then, when shut down, the water could slowly seep through the space due to warping into the oil return passages just below the water jacket. All this would have to be pretty localized, as the fire ring seems to not be compromised, with the normal compression numbers seen.
OR, maybe cometics just leak easier and some barrs stop leak will fix that, since its an outward leak from the water jacket, but that doesnt explain the oil in the water.
The other point is that the water that did fill the oil pan, stopped when the radiator was just about full, pointing to a leak that could be head high. (might be rulling out a cracked block, because that would drain most of the water, to half the radiator height, before the water would level out. that might be good news for the situation.
Here is a shot of the block to show where the oil return passages and high pressure line is, vs the water jacket. next is andersons blown head gasket and then a pic of the head and their passages
thanks for the help and suggestions.
mk
So, the radiator came back from the shop with no issues. they did replace the "O" ring on the oil cooler, but the cooler didnt leak under the pressure test.
Now its on to the engine possibilities.
first, I saw oil in the water reservior. I dont know how that got there, but water level for the past few weekends has been good, and actually oil went down a little, if not from leaking, from driving it around the block for about 20miles and lots of start ups and warm ups. I added a quart of oil. oil always looked good. I did have that overheat light come on, but shut down after a few secs. maybe it warped the heads? I also did a few hard runs in 2nd to 3rd gear when the car finally started running well. (remember, I had those backfires due to the cracked distrib cap, which could have damaged something.
1. Maybe there was a crack in the block that got worse due to pushing the engine.
2. Maybe the backfiring damaged the head gasket, but that would not explain why the compression is still good, but maybe we need to do a leak down as a slow leak, might not effect compression with the traditional way of testing. (cranking)
3. Maybe a cracked head? but it would have to be through the head so that the high pressure oil could seep into the water passages, but then, when not running, I cant seethat much water running into that crack and into the tiny oil passages to get to the pan. So.............
4. Maybe there is a warped head, and it would have to of occured by the high pressure oil passage at the rear or front of the heads (depending on the side), for the oil to leak into the water, and then, when shut down, the water could slowly seep through the space due to warping into the oil return passages just below the water jacket. All this would have to be pretty localized, as the fire ring seems to not be compromised, with the normal compression numbers seen.
OR, maybe cometics just leak easier and some barrs stop leak will fix that, since its an outward leak from the water jacket, but that doesnt explain the oil in the water.
The other point is that the water that did fill the oil pan, stopped when the radiator was just about full, pointing to a leak that could be head high. (might be rulling out a cracked block, because that would drain most of the water, to half the radiator height, before the water would level out. that might be good news for the situation.
Here is a shot of the block to show where the oil return passages and high pressure line is, vs the water jacket. next is andersons blown head gasket and then a pic of the head and their passages
thanks for the help and suggestions.
mk
12-29-2009, 07:27 PM
#54
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark--
Try some Liquid Tide in the cooling system to degrease it all. Six to eight ounces is plenty. Run it to full temp with hard circulation, not just a long idle, so that all of the oil is emulsified. Drain, rinse at full temp, rinse at full temp again, rinse at full temp again, and you should be good to go.
Try some Liquid Tide in the cooling system to degrease it all. Six to eight ounces is plenty. Run it to full temp with hard circulation, not just a long idle, so that all of the oil is emulsified. Drain, rinse at full temp, rinse at full temp again, rinse at full temp again, and you should be good to go.
12-29-2009, 08:26 PM
#55
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Mark find a shop with a chemical tester called Block Check, they are cheap to buy and cheap to use.
It will show if you have combustion chamber gasses in the cooling system.
Seems like every time some one thinks head gaskets the first thing that is suggested is a compression test, I have seen MANY, MANY blown head gaskets that would only show up with a chemical test.
For what it is worth.
Greg
It will show if you have combustion chamber gasses in the cooling system.
Seems like every time some one thinks head gaskets the first thing that is suggested is a compression test, I have seen MANY, MANY blown head gaskets that would only show up with a chemical test.
For what it is worth.
Greg
12-29-2009, 08:30 PM
#56
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How hot did it run?
Were the heads retorqued after it had been ran?
What was the finish on the block and the heads?
I doubt you have a head gasket problem unless it has been ran hot.
Were the heads retorqued after it had been ran?
What was the finish on the block and the heads?
I doubt you have a head gasket problem unless it has been ran hot.
12-29-2009, 10:45 PM
#57
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I said I did a full compression test, and thats kind of hard to do with out pulling the plugs. :wink: So, the plugs looked as they always do. rich looking, no coolant. looking in the bores, the piston faces look carboned out and dry, no fluid came out the holes, as I did that check first with no plugs in the engine, just in case.
So, the radiator came back from the shop with no issues. they did replace the "O" ring on the oil cooler, but the cooler didnt leak under the pressure test.
Now its on to the engine possibilities.
first, I saw oil in the water reservior. I dont know how that got there, but water level for the past few weekends has been good, and actually oil went down a little, if not from leaking, from driving it around the block for about 20miles and lots of start ups and warm ups. I added a quart of oil. oil always looked good. I did have that overheat light come on, but shut down after a few secs. maybe it warped the heads? I also did a few hard runs in 2nd to 3rd gear when the car finally started running well. (remember, I had those backfires due to the cracked distrib cap, which could have damaged something.
1. Maybe there was a crack in the block that got worse due to pushing the engine.
2. Maybe the backfiring damaged the head gasket, but that would not explain why the compression is still good, but maybe we need to do a leak down as a slow leak, might not effect compression with the traditional way of testing. (cranking)
3. Maybe a cracked head? but it would have to be through the head so that the high pressure oil could seep into the water passages, but then, when not running, I cant seethat much water running into that crack and into the tiny oil passages to get to the pan. So.............
4. Maybe there is a warped head, and it would have to of occured by the high pressure oil passage at the rear or front of the heads (depending on the side), for the oil to leak into the water, and then, when shut down, the water could slowly seep through the space due to warping into the oil return passages just below the water jacket. All this would have to be pretty localized, as the fire ring seems to not be compromised, with the normal compression numbers seen.
OR, maybe cometics just leak easier and some barrs stop leak will fix that, since its an outward leak from the water jacket, but that doesnt explain the oil in the water.
The other point is that the water that did fill the oil pan, stopped when the radiator was just about full, pointing to a leak that could be head high. (might be rulling out a cracked block, because that would drain most of the water, to half the radiator height, before the water would level out. that might be good news for the situation.
Here is a shot of the block to show where the oil return passages and high pressure line is, vs the water jacket. next is andersons blown head gasket and then a pic of the head and their passages
thanks for the help and suggestions.
mk
So, the radiator came back from the shop with no issues. they did replace the "O" ring on the oil cooler, but the cooler didnt leak under the pressure test.
Now its on to the engine possibilities.
first, I saw oil in the water reservior. I dont know how that got there, but water level for the past few weekends has been good, and actually oil went down a little, if not from leaking, from driving it around the block for about 20miles and lots of start ups and warm ups. I added a quart of oil. oil always looked good. I did have that overheat light come on, but shut down after a few secs. maybe it warped the heads? I also did a few hard runs in 2nd to 3rd gear when the car finally started running well. (remember, I had those backfires due to the cracked distrib cap, which could have damaged something.
1. Maybe there was a crack in the block that got worse due to pushing the engine.
2. Maybe the backfiring damaged the head gasket, but that would not explain why the compression is still good, but maybe we need to do a leak down as a slow leak, might not effect compression with the traditional way of testing. (cranking)
3. Maybe a cracked head? but it would have to be through the head so that the high pressure oil could seep into the water passages, but then, when not running, I cant seethat much water running into that crack and into the tiny oil passages to get to the pan. So.............
4. Maybe there is a warped head, and it would have to of occured by the high pressure oil passage at the rear or front of the heads (depending on the side), for the oil to leak into the water, and then, when shut down, the water could slowly seep through the space due to warping into the oil return passages just below the water jacket. All this would have to be pretty localized, as the fire ring seems to not be compromised, with the normal compression numbers seen.
OR, maybe cometics just leak easier and some barrs stop leak will fix that, since its an outward leak from the water jacket, but that doesnt explain the oil in the water.
The other point is that the water that did fill the oil pan, stopped when the radiator was just about full, pointing to a leak that could be head high. (might be rulling out a cracked block, because that would drain most of the water, to half the radiator height, before the water would level out. that might be good news for the situation.
Here is a shot of the block to show where the oil return passages and high pressure line is, vs the water jacket. next is andersons blown head gasket and then a pic of the head and their passages
thanks for the help and suggestions.
mk
From a radiator shop I borrowed a tool to pump up the air pressure into the the water system while the radiator was in the car.It screws on where the radiator cap goes and puts pressure into the whole water system while the car is off.I could see water come up the intake port and fill the intake.Not sure that would help depends where the leak is.Once you get it back in and if you still have the problem pump the whole system up.Then take the plugs out and crank the motor over,if any water is in the sytem under pressure that is getting into the cylinders it should fly out of the spark plug hole.With the one cylinder I tested the water hit the ceiling in the garage!That may check the heads if anything getting into the cylinders.Then I left it under pressure could see water slowly coming up the intake port till it started filling the intake.It was on a different style motor but was a new race motor.
Luckly I tried to start it with the coil wire off just to test it out as it was a new stroker motor for my old drag car.It did lock,took 2 teeth out of the ring gear bent the starter drive that was from hydraulic lock of the water.Could you imagine if I didn't pull the coil wire off to test how the motor turned over on a complete new rebuild.You never know what kind of machine work is done even by a really good shop.Always best to test any new motor rebuild if any porting is done before your fire it up,I really lucked out on that one.I tore it all down again to check the rods and to get the(milky looking oil)from the system.Everything was ok had to get another head ported thou but at least nothing else was messed up.Best to have the spark plugs out if turning the motor over and coil wires off if testing under pressure and cranking the motor.
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 12-29-2009 at 11:10 PM.
12-29-2009, 11:28 PM
#58
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M928--
He has water in the oil, and suspects that there's a leak between the water jacket and one of the oil galleys via either a crack or a head gasket failure. Your advice is tsill sound, but instead of looking for oil in the intake or a cylinder, the coling system could be pressurized with the tester, with the oil sump plug out. Water will find its way to the sump via an oil passage if there's a gasket failure. Cracks change size with heat though, so you may not find a leak through a crack with this method unless it stays open when cold.
He has water in the oil, and suspects that there's a leak between the water jacket and one of the oil galleys via either a crack or a head gasket failure. Your advice is tsill sound, but instead of looking for oil in the intake or a cylinder, the coling system could be pressurized with the tester, with the oil sump plug out. Water will find its way to the sump via an oil passage if there's a gasket failure. Cracks change size with heat though, so you may not find a leak through a crack with this method unless it stays open when cold.
12-29-2009, 11:40 PM
#59
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dr.Bob,
this was the cooling system pressurized and it was water in the intake and cylinder,not oil in the intake.
Same idea water system pressurized but this ended up being water coming into the cylinder and intake.Was talking of how the water even got into the whole system under the bearings etc from that water leak in the head so cleaned the whole motor as it was everywhere after.
this was the cooling system pressurized and it was water in the intake and cylinder,not oil in the intake.
Same idea water system pressurized but this ended up being water coming into the cylinder and intake.Was talking of how the water even got into the whole system under the bearings etc from that water leak in the head so cleaned the whole motor as it was everywhere after.
12-29-2009, 11:42 PM
#60
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That's why I turned the engine over without the plugs in. But, i think the problem is in the headgasket, but not around the fire ring. Ill do a leak down and that might show something there as well.
[QUOTE=M928;7180982]Not sure if it would help.I had someone do some heads before and went to far in porting didnt know it till after.
From a radiator shop I borrowed a tool to pump up the air pressure into the the water system while the radiator was in the car.It screws on where the radiator cap goes and puts pressure into the whole water system while the car is off.I could see water come up the intake port and fill the intake.Not sure that would help depends where the leak is.Once you get it back in and if you still have the problem pump the whole system up.Then take the plugs out and crank the motor over,if any water is in the sytem under pressure that is getting into the cylinders it should fly out of the spark plug hole.With the one cylinder I tested the water hit the ceiling in the garage!That may check the heads if anything getting into the cylinders.Then I left it under pressure could see water slowly coming up the intake port till it started filling the intake.It was on a different style motor but was a new race motor.
QUOTE]
[QUOTE=M928;7180982]Not sure if it would help.I had someone do some heads before and went to far in porting didnt know it till after.
From a radiator shop I borrowed a tool to pump up the air pressure into the the water system while the radiator was in the car.It screws on where the radiator cap goes and puts pressure into the whole water system while the car is off.I could see water come up the intake port and fill the intake.Not sure that would help depends where the leak is.Once you get it back in and if you still have the problem pump the whole system up.Then take the plugs out and crank the motor over,if any water is in the sytem under pressure that is getting into the cylinders it should fly out of the spark plug hole.With the one cylinder I tested the water hit the ceiling in the garage!That may check the heads if anything getting into the cylinders.Then I left it under pressure could see water slowly coming up the intake port till it started filling the intake.It was on a different style motor but was a new race motor.
QUOTE]