Cosmo Kramer

Has anyone here tried or have any experience with these. I was looking at some silicone elbows and stumbled upon them on the Silicone Intakes website. They look like they may be small enough to squeeze between the intake tank and the fender on an 85/86 installation. My concern would be the cooling efficiency and flow restriction.

Thoughts?

4" 450 cfm

5" 700 cfm

docmirror

This technology was used on the Lotus Esprit from 1989-ish through the last of the 4 cylinder cars. There is a fair amount of ancillary baggage that comes with the system. It does work, but it's not simple, nor lightweight to install. The Lotus had some trouble with the pumps in one model, and had to replace nearly all of them under warranty.

It will work ok, but given the plumbing and ducting, and radiator needed, I might just go with a air to air intercooler.

<edit: I went to the website to see the product. They are using a bilge pump to move the water around. It will not last. Bilge pumps cannot do more than a few PSI, and eventually they leak or burst. I've had some experience with this. You need a more robust pump to get the job done. Also note that the pump is not rated for coolant, so if you live anywhere there will be a hard freeze you need to either drain it before freezing or keep the car in a heated garage constantly.>

Fabio421

Doc, why would an A/W intercooler in that configuration be any more prone to leakage that an A/W intercooler in another shape?

Cosmo, it looks like it would work. I would be interested in seeing the efficiency #'s of that unit. How much room is available on an 85-86? It's not much. You would probably have to go with the smaller unit and possibly run two in series.

Ketchmi

One of the main considerations for an air/water intercooler is the amount of surface area vs. the amount of airflow. The surface area of that intercooler is amazingly small, I would expect a considerable amount of boost loss. The surface area is 22.5 square inches...the intercooler I build for monster 928's has 90 square inches of surface area. The total cooling area can't be more than 225 cubic inches for that intercooler but that is not a bad size. I use 270 cubic inches and it's probably good for 1000 crank hp. The problem is that at the velocities encountered in automotive, and with the efficiency of a good air/water core, the air is cooled in approx 3". What to do with the other 7"?

docmirror

The pump will leak because it's cheap plastic, made for cool water, and not rated for either chemicals, or pressure. I didn't say the intercooler will leak.

docmirror

Nope, A/W intercoolers are very pressure efficient. However, they are not that thermally efficient based on the surface area of the exchange medium. The typical pressure differential is very small. It's a balancing act, getting cool water in there and having a large surface area can make them moderately efficient. I noticed that the website doesn't list the temp Q at any CFM, which makes me leery of the thermal efficiency.

Cosmo Kramer

Another thing that plays a big factor is how cool you can get the water that is flowing through the core, colder water in theory could work well as well as a larger core with warmer water. I think this intercooler would be efficient by not eating up much of the boost pressure, the bigger question would be the cooling efficiency.

blau928

Stop messing around and just get a Laminova setup... Best AWIC for automotive use bar none..!

There is also more to an AWIC than surface area, as there is thermal storage capacity of the cooling medium, and the heat rejection of the radiator for the system. Further, here is also the coolant flowrate through the system, and the pressure drop across the core......

To get started down the path of thermodynamics....

Good luck,

Imo000

Any IC is better than none, as long as the pressure drop is not too much. Everything else noted above is is only good to make one more efficient.

Ketchmi

Sorry Doc but I have to respectfully disagree. There is no way that a 4.5 X 5 bar and plate A/W core will flow the same as a round 3" inlet and outlet. That equals restriction to flow. I believe getting the air in, cooled and out as soon as possible.

I like to run 4gpm on a single pass system, using a alcohol/water mix and a converted 4-pass A/C evaporator as the heat exchanger with proper ducting and a fan. Haven't had a heat soak problem yet...huge thermal reserve and excellent heat rejection capabilities.

I do have to agree with Doc on the pump, I use a Johnson Controls brushless that is rated for temp & chemical and has an amazingly low current draw as well as an extended lifetime. I don't even bother to switch the pump on and off thermally, just turn it on with the ignition.

docmirror

No prob, I have no dog in the hunt. Lotus went to the chargecooler due to all the plumbing issues with an intercooler in a mid-engine car. The little reading I've done on it indicates that there is also very little flow degradation. Like I said, since there are no temp Q numbers listed we can't know how thermally efficient it is. Balancing act, increase the thermal Q and decrease the flow.

From their website, not that I believe everything I read, but this is all we have to go on:

Water to Air Intercooler - 14.5"x5"x4.5", Long Flow (Type 19)
[INT000219]

This impressive Liquid/Air intercooler is better than any FMIC.

Similar in dimensions to a regular length of pipe, this intercooler provides the installation flexibility of a barrel-style water to air intercooler without the added cost and inefficiency.

Almost all of the high-efficiency water to air intercoolers on the market have your intake air changing direction twice. These Long Flow models (along with our thru models) keep it going straight the whole time, meaning your turbo doesn't have to work as hard, with the net result of more potential power.

100% Lightweight aluminum, No Epoxy Used In Core

Recommended for over 700 CFM
Pressure Drop: Less than 0.1 PSI. This is not a typo! Liquid/Air Intercoolers have incredibly low pressure drop.
Air Inlet/Outlet: 3.0"
Water Inlet/Outlet: 1/2" NPT
Maximum water/air pressure: 70 PSI
The inlet and outlet on this intercooler go directly through the intercooler; preventing the air from changing direction can result in better airflow.
Note: The water inlet and outlet on most water/air intercooles are BPT threads. BPT fittings are difficult to find in the United States, so ours all come with NPT threads.

One thing that many people don't understand(however, I'm sure you do), is that when the cooling effect takes place, it acts like a mini accelerator/accumulator of the air passing through. As a converse example, the radiator used to cool the P-51 was supposed to have a fairly high Cd number. But, the engineers either forgot or didn't realize that the hot air coming out had a pressure increase, and due to the turbine effect of the discharge and the actual Cd was very low. At some low speed, the P-51 radiator actually produced a very small amount of forward thrust! Conserving the molecular energy, does the same job in reverse with a closed loop cooling system, PV=NRT as T goes down P also goes down(and/or N goes up some), given a fixed volume.

<edit, one more thing Dave, I'm sure you're aware that Alcohol has a much worse thermal exchange efficiency than water. I guess it's in there for anti-freeze, but use as little as you can get away with.>

Ketchmi

Hey Doc,

There are some downfalls to living in Utah but Texas has been getting more than it's fair share of freezing weather lately...thus the reason for the alcohol.

I don't believe much as far as ebay advertising and I don't believe .1 psi loss unless it is at .2 psi applied pressure. I am pretty sure that it is gauged by a percentage of total pressure, not a specific number regardless of the amount of boost applied...

I do think that they are considerably better than nothing but there are much more efficient intercoolers out there. If I didn't make my own intercoolers and it fit my needs, I would probably try one.

Vilhuer

Just check what kind of cooler Murf level 2 and 3 kit has. How large it is and what it uses as water source. Once that is sorted just use two of these pipe coolers, one on each side of engine.

Imo000

That's wont work on a CS spercharger as there is only one charge pipe.

hacker-pschorr

Unless you are cutting apart the cores for a direct comparison, size is of little value.

I’ve seen cores (from reputable core suppliers) that were junk, this applies to both air / air and air / water cores. I’ve spent a lot of time / money finding this out the hard way early on with my project.
I’m still not happy with my current IC, reason why I’m going to replicate the unit on Shane’s car. The unit I’m using now would be fine for a lower boosted engine, it’s not up to par for 17psi.
When I compared the core on Shane’s 86.5 to even my “better” unit, talk about getting that sinking gut feeling, since my current IC cost more than Shane paid for his.
Oh well, live and learn.

Another factor is water flow. Renntech was experiencing heat saturated cores on the McLaren SLR during high speed tests. Since upgrading the IC was not an easy task (and it was already a very high quality core), they beefed up the pump and heat exchanger. This solved the problem.
IIRC they switched to a Johnson Controls pump, most likely the same one Dave is talking about.

Everyone talks about measuring the pressure drop. My first IC had a very low pressure drop.......beacuse the fins were spaced so far apart the air flowed right through - and never cooled down. So a low pressure dorp does not always mean a good quality core.