928 , Panamera side by side
09-05-2009, 10:00 PM
#46
Drifting
Can someone please define for me what a "saloon" is? It was my impression that this is exactly the purpose of the model, to fit full size adults in the back comfortably.
09-05-2009, 10:41 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
I know all of you youngsters were barely hatched when the 928 was first introduced, so you are forgiven for not having first-hand memories of the opinions stated by the then-purist Porsche owners. Virtually every complaint stated here about the Panamera was shared when the 928 was revealed. Front engine, GT car, lots of interior room, trunk space, leading edge performance, all mixed into one? No. They commented on the big butt, the diversion from Porsche's One True Purpose (continue to build 911's, ooops I meant 'sports cars'). Owners of those still think of the 928 is 'big'. It was at the time bit is't big any more. These days there are some rather big cars that go rather fast, and outperform the 911's of a decade ago. Many are faster than the latest 928.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
09-05-2009, 10:55 PM
#49
I like the Panamera, why? Because it is doing the exact same thing to to people that the 928 did. Made them look differently at the company. The 928 gave much more to consumers than just having the 911 did. It gave them a choice. The Pepper did the same thing and there are a lot of them on the road here in Texas, almost as many 911's.
Would I own one? In a heartbeat if I was in the market for a 4 door that could perform. BMW has the M-series , Aston, Maserati etc. I'd rather own a marque that I have a passion for. I give Porsche kudos for designing something that is not what you see on the road everyday. It's not the best looking thing on the road but you sure won't confuse it for a Kia or Hundai.
Would I own one? In a heartbeat if I was in the market for a 4 door that could perform. BMW has the M-series , Aston, Maserati etc. I'd rather own a marque that I have a passion for. I give Porsche kudos for designing something that is not what you see on the road everyday. It's not the best looking thing on the road but you sure won't confuse it for a Kia or Hundai.
09-05-2009, 11:41 PM
#50
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One addition to my last post: I would consider it quite possible, and even likely that one of the other brands within VW might use the Panamera platform or parts thereof in another model. But just like the Bentley is different from the Phaeton, you can be sure that there will not be another model that competes directly with the Panamera.
09-06-2009, 12:37 AM
#51
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".... There is nothing wrong with VW having multiple offerings in different styles and under different brands to maximize the market share of their platform, technolgy and (in case of the Cayenne body made by VW) manufacturing sites.
They already do this with many other cars of similar size in different styles, under different brands, at different price points. ............" .
My take: Both Panamera and Cayenne are here to stay.
They already do this with many other cars of similar size in different styles, under different brands, at different price points. ............" .
My take: Both Panamera and Cayenne are here to stay.
often better to do one thing really well than try to do everything....Badge engineering where you create a "new" car by giving it a new name tends to suck. If you think VW quality will rise to that of Porsche just consider that the corporate culture that emerges from ANY merger is ALWAYS that of the larger. Benz learned that one the hard way with Chrysler. Audi ALREADY has the pepper variant and it is bigger and better.
09-06-2009, 01:34 AM
#52
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Sorry, but VW does not to simple "badge engineering". Or would you say there is no difference between a Bentley Continental and a VW Phaeton, just because they are based on the same platform?
Or how about Rabbit and Audi A3? Did you realize that they are based on the same platform, and the entry level A3 is comes with the same engine as the GTI?
Same, if you compare the VW Passat with the Audi A4. Same class of car, similar price point, but very different vehicles.
Even that new minivan built by Chrysler is not just putting a VW badge on a Chrysler - it is quite different from Chrysler's own offerings.
VWs brands all have their very own character, style, and price point. If you compare the small cars from VW, Seat, and Skoda, the only things that will tip consumers off are similar infotainment systems. Whatever the driver or passenger can see, feel or hear is individual to the brand and model.
VW is not GM, and you should not expect them to act like GM. Instead, expect them to be the largest car manufacturer in the world before 2020.
Or how about Rabbit and Audi A3? Did you realize that they are based on the same platform, and the entry level A3 is comes with the same engine as the GTI?
Same, if you compare the VW Passat with the Audi A4. Same class of car, similar price point, but very different vehicles.
Even that new minivan built by Chrysler is not just putting a VW badge on a Chrysler - it is quite different from Chrysler's own offerings.
VWs brands all have their very own character, style, and price point. If you compare the small cars from VW, Seat, and Skoda, the only things that will tip consumers off are similar infotainment systems. Whatever the driver or passenger can see, feel or hear is individual to the brand and model.
VW is not GM, and you should not expect them to act like GM. Instead, expect them to be the largest car manufacturer in the world before 2020.
09-06-2009, 04:19 PM
#53
928 Barrister
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I placed this post dealing with this subject on another forum not long ago.
I started my association with Porsche as a 356 owner after coming in contact with them as a friend of a Speedster racer. I can remember how enamored I was with them then, and how I was so shocked by the original 911. How could Porsche do such a thing? Then 6 months later I drove out of the Porsche dealer with one of the first 911s. I loved that car and drove it into the ground and it was so much better than a 356 I couldn't believe it. Everything worked better on it than my old 356 coupe. My next cars included a 356 Speedster, and a 911-E; I was still on the right track I thought. The 914s came out and I thought to myself: " Those are toy cars. How could Porsche do such a thing?". Guess what? My next car was a 914/6 which I still have today. A toy? Wrong. A Porsche? More than I could have imagined. Fun. Quick. Nimble. Maybe I'll be fortunate enough to keep it forever. Unfortunately, my six got hit and I suffered a knee injury that prompted my surgeon to advise me to give up stick shift transmissions and clutches. I needed an automatic at least long enough for my knee to repair itself. I called a Porsche dealer friend of mine who could have any car on the lot to drive and always drove 911 Turbos (or so I thought). I explained my situation and asked his suggestions and what he was currently driving. He told me he drove a 928. I laughed and said: "How could Porsche do such a thing as a 928? That isn't a real Porsche; the engine is in the wrong place, it is too big and heavy and the engine is too large to be efficient." He told me to go drive one and try to repeat my criticism. I did. I loved it the first time I drove one, and then bought one, and have since put over 100,000 miles on it in less than seven years. I will keep this one forever if possible for it seems like it will never break. Is the 928 a real Porsche? Drive one and decide. But take your checkbook with you if you do. I love my 928 better than any car or Porsche I have ever had, except maybe my 356 Speedsteer which is the essence of Porsche.
So I have learned to withhold my negative first reactions to new Porsche models. I don't like the Panamera. I share the same criticisms expressed in this thread so far. But until I actually spend a few hundred miles in one, I shall refrain from forming a definite opinion. And when the expected two door version (a new 928?) is released, I will be there to try it out, despite my belief that this Panamera is fugly. My 928 has taught me that Porsches are so well designed that it takes driving one a considerable distance to appreciate the detailed thought that went into creating one. The ergonomics, which are almost perfect on the 928. The seating position which allows hours of pain free high speed driving. The vision out of them. The enormous versatility of luggage capacity which is so improved over the older models. Every model gets better and better. After four hours at triple digit speeds is when it becomes possible to appreciate a Porsche. I suspect that this Panamera will be understood and the body shape will be understood as well. And people's opinion of it's shape will cease to be so important. But I am still wondering: "How could Porsche do such a thing as this Panamera?" __________________
I started my association with Porsche as a 356 owner after coming in contact with them as a friend of a Speedster racer. I can remember how enamored I was with them then, and how I was so shocked by the original 911. How could Porsche do such a thing? Then 6 months later I drove out of the Porsche dealer with one of the first 911s. I loved that car and drove it into the ground and it was so much better than a 356 I couldn't believe it. Everything worked better on it than my old 356 coupe. My next cars included a 356 Speedster, and a 911-E; I was still on the right track I thought. The 914s came out and I thought to myself: " Those are toy cars. How could Porsche do such a thing?". Guess what? My next car was a 914/6 which I still have today. A toy? Wrong. A Porsche? More than I could have imagined. Fun. Quick. Nimble. Maybe I'll be fortunate enough to keep it forever. Unfortunately, my six got hit and I suffered a knee injury that prompted my surgeon to advise me to give up stick shift transmissions and clutches. I needed an automatic at least long enough for my knee to repair itself. I called a Porsche dealer friend of mine who could have any car on the lot to drive and always drove 911 Turbos (or so I thought). I explained my situation and asked his suggestions and what he was currently driving. He told me he drove a 928. I laughed and said: "How could Porsche do such a thing as a 928? That isn't a real Porsche; the engine is in the wrong place, it is too big and heavy and the engine is too large to be efficient." He told me to go drive one and try to repeat my criticism. I did. I loved it the first time I drove one, and then bought one, and have since put over 100,000 miles on it in less than seven years. I will keep this one forever if possible for it seems like it will never break. Is the 928 a real Porsche? Drive one and decide. But take your checkbook with you if you do. I love my 928 better than any car or Porsche I have ever had, except maybe my 356 Speedsteer which is the essence of Porsche.
So I have learned to withhold my negative first reactions to new Porsche models. I don't like the Panamera. I share the same criticisms expressed in this thread so far. But until I actually spend a few hundred miles in one, I shall refrain from forming a definite opinion. And when the expected two door version (a new 928?) is released, I will be there to try it out, despite my belief that this Panamera is fugly. My 928 has taught me that Porsches are so well designed that it takes driving one a considerable distance to appreciate the detailed thought that went into creating one. The ergonomics, which are almost perfect on the 928. The seating position which allows hours of pain free high speed driving. The vision out of them. The enormous versatility of luggage capacity which is so improved over the older models. Every model gets better and better. After four hours at triple digit speeds is when it becomes possible to appreciate a Porsche. I suspect that this Panamera will be understood and the body shape will be understood as well. And people's opinion of it's shape will cease to be so important. But I am still wondering: "How could Porsche do such a thing as this Panamera?" __________________
Last edited by Ron_H; 09-06-2009 at 06:50 PM.
09-06-2009, 04:48 PM
#54
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
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Ron - The wisdom of time and choices past made are the indicators of truth. You post is full of truth. Thank you for that.
09-06-2009, 06:46 PM
#55
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09-06-2009, 08:47 PM
#56
Race Car
Well, VW is planning variants based on the Panamera platform. Lambo, Bugatti and Audi.
Here's the Lambo ready for production and the Bugatti still a prototype.
Here's the Lambo ready for production and the Bugatti still a prototype.
Last edited by blitz928; 06-28-2013 at 02:17 PM.
