928 , Panamera side by side
09-04-2009, 03:46 PM
#31
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Who's idea was it to put this jack-off in charge of Porsche????
475hp/460lb.ft
09-04-2009, 04:02 PM
#33
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
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http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/09/03...her-vw-brands/
If this is correct, the four door Pcars are dead.
If this is correct, the four door Pcars are dead.
I'm still less than enthralled with the backside. One thing that seems especially strange is the over-engineered rear wing. Pause that slide and look at the complexity of that lift mechanism.
09-04-2009, 04:02 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Interesting article from the Panamera thread
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/08/...-takeover.html
'89 S4 GP White/Black
'912E Silver/Black sunroof
Objects in mirror are losing
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/08/...-takeover.html
'89 S4 GP White/Black
'912E Silver/Black sunroof
Objects in mirror are losing
09-04-2009, 04:18 PM
#35
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Good article note it states.."Porsche will be forced to discontinue the Cayenne and Panamera after their product cycles are complete around seven years from now. " So both may be around for a while !!
09-04-2009, 04:49 PM
#36
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I want to play too.
I've had the misfortune of seeing the Panamera in person, and sat in it, and I must agree with Heinrich 100%. Give me a break! Porsche and the world can do much better than that...........and has.
I've had the misfortune of seeing the Panamera in person, and sat in it, and I must agree with Heinrich 100%. Give me a break! Porsche and the world can do much better than that...........and has.
09-04-2009, 05:46 PM
#37
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From your sig: There's three things in this world that you need:
Respect for all kinds of life.
Anybody see contradiction here?
Nice to see the cars together, but only for scale comp. No other comparison is valid; they are different designs for different purpose.
Respect for all kinds of life.
Anybody see contradiction here?
Nice to see the cars together, but only for scale comp. No other comparison is valid; they are different designs for different purpose.
Last edited by SteveG; 09-04-2009 at 05:49 PM. Reason: because
09-04-2009, 06:29 PM
#38
Chronic Tool Dropper
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I know all of you youngsters were barely hatched when the 928 was first introduced, so you are forgiven for not having first-hand memories of the opinions stated by the then-purist Porsche owners. Virtually every complaint stated here about the Panamera was shared when the 928 was revealed. Front engine, GT car, lots of interior room, trunk space, leading edge performance, all mixed into one? No. They commented on the big butt, the diversion from Porsche's One True Purpose (continue to build 911's, ooops I meant 'sports cars'). Owners of those still think of the 928 is 'big'. It was at the time bit is't big any more. These days there are some rather big cars that go rather fast, and outperform the 911's of a decade ago. Many are faster than the latest 928.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
09-04-2009, 07:17 PM
#40
Vegas, Baby!
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Dr. Bob is eloquent as always. My personal preference is a coupe. I'll wait to see if the boys in Germany decide to build one.
09-04-2009, 07:39 PM
#41
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I know all of you youngsters were barely hatched when the 928 was first introduced, so you are forgiven for not having first-hand memories of the opinions stated by the then-purist Porsche owners. Virtually every complaint stated here about the Panamera was shared when the 928 was revealed. Front engine, GT car, lots of interior room, trunk space, leading edge performance, all mixed into one? No. They commented on the big butt, the diversion from Porsche's One True Purpose (continue to build 911's, ooops I meant 'sports cars'). Owners of those still think of the 928 is 'big'. It was at the time bit is't big any more. These days there are some rather big cars that go rather fast, and outperform the 911's of a decade ago. Many are faster than the latest 928.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
The current 911 offerings are the same size as a 928. As the world grows and customers grow, so does the appetite for bigger cars that do what we are used to. So here's my personal observation and opinion: Porsche 'purists' will come to love the new car, but it will take a while. 928 Owners (that would be us...) need to compare the new car with currect offereings in the same class from other manufacturers, and find tha it does a whole lot of things rather well and a whole lot of things better than most of those others. Like the 928, it's a car you can buy, drive, and have serviced at a local dealer. In real inflation-adjusted dollars, it's priced less than the 928 was too. A bargain!
Perhaps there will be a kind and caring first owner who will drive the car carefully, garage it always, have it serviced regularly, and then sell it to me with less than 25k on it before it's ten years old, for less than 20% of the original sales price. That would put it in the garage next to the 928 that found me under those same conditions.
I have to remind myself that I drive a 20+ year old execution of a 35+ year old design. Would I trade for a new Panamera, or even 'just' AMG S-class sedan? In a heartbeat.
09-05-2009, 02:45 AM
#42
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Dr. Bob, great post and good thoughts, and I agree completely right up to the end:
Ooof.... That's a tough question and I've been trying to convince myself that you are right. But I think I wouldn't make that trade.
We bought our S4 new at a time when circumstances allowed us to do pretty much anything we wanted car-wise. The goal was something capable of carrying two of us and a week's luggage rapidly over a variety of roads in a sporting style. We'd had a variety of 2 and 4-seaters, SUV's before they were called that, and most recently a 944. Nothing compared. The 928 was perfect for our needs and we loved it (and still do).
I would never have bought a Panamera then, and still woulldn't. Cars like Porsches are meant to be driven, and we drove (and still drive) a lot of mountain roads at "sporting" speeds. Two backseat passengers just doesn't compute, they would not be happy in the least and neither would we. If you need to carry four then get a BMW, Audi or a Mercedes and stick to the highway. A four-seat sports car just doesn't make sense to me.
I still don't know of anything that I would trade the 928 for. There are faster, fancier and more expensive cars but not capable of doing what the 928 does for us: To the store for groceries, quickly through the mountains for a weekend, long days to Texas and back without a hiccup and ready for more.
We bought our S4 new at a time when circumstances allowed us to do pretty much anything we wanted car-wise. The goal was something capable of carrying two of us and a week's luggage rapidly over a variety of roads in a sporting style. We'd had a variety of 2 and 4-seaters, SUV's before they were called that, and most recently a 944. Nothing compared. The 928 was perfect for our needs and we loved it (and still do).
I would never have bought a Panamera then, and still woulldn't. Cars like Porsches are meant to be driven, and we drove (and still drive) a lot of mountain roads at "sporting" speeds. Two backseat passengers just doesn't compute, they would not be happy in the least and neither would we. If you need to carry four then get a BMW, Audi or a Mercedes and stick to the highway. A four-seat sports car just doesn't make sense to me.
I still don't know of anything that I would trade the 928 for. There are faster, fancier and more expensive cars but not capable of doing what the 928 does for us: To the store for groceries, quickly through the mountains for a weekend, long days to Texas and back without a hiccup and ready for more.
09-05-2009, 04:06 AM
#43
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http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/09/03...her-vw-brands/
If this is correct, the four door Pcars are dead.
If this is correct, the four door Pcars are dead.
Porsche has always been an engineering and automotive technology company. They just happened to make sports cars because that was the niche they found after the war: Nobody made a small and light car the way Ferry envisioned it.
But over the years, the Porsche name (not to confuse with "Porsche Design") has been assoxiated with a variety of other products, from tanks and abulances to fork lifts and airplane cockpits, Russian auto engines, Korean SUVs, or special edition Audi and Mercedes models.
The Cayenne reaches a brand and status conscious audience that would not buy a Volkswagen - they would go to Audi, BMW, or Mercedes instead. There is nothing wrong with VW having multiple offerings in different styles and under different brands to maximize the market share of their platform, technolgy and (in case of the Cayenne body made by VW) manufacturing sites.
They already do this with many other cars of similar size in different styles, under different brands, at different price points. Killing the Cayenne would HURT the company's bottom line.
The same goes for the Panamera. Martin Winterkorn - VW's CEO even spoke about another derivative of the Panamera for Porsche, which will either be a coupe or convertible. However, I have since heard that the Panamera body would need significant modification to be stiff enough for a convertible - it might turn out not to be feasible.
Lastly, if Porsche wants to retain its dealer network and grow in emerging markets, it needs both the Cayenne and Panamera to keep the dealers open and busy all year round.
My take: Both Panamera and Cayenne are here to stay.
09-05-2009, 04:31 PM
#44
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He went on to explain Dr.W (former head of Porsche and father of the Panamera) climbed into the back seat and hit his head on the ceiling. He ordered the roof raised to accommodate. Per this guy, Dr.W is about 6' 4" tall.
He said the designers were not very thrilled about the new design direction.
He said the designers were not very thrilled about the new design direction.
So, he not only runs Porsche into the ground but single-handedly ruins their last creative offering... is public hanging allowed in Germany?
FWIW, nobody that is 6'4" wants to be in the back seat of any vehicle.... unless it is an SUV -and then only maybe. They would want to be in the front seats, with their shorter friends/wives/girlfriends in the back.
Wiedeking is intelligent enough to be a Dr. -and he doesn't know that simple fact?
09-05-2009, 05:08 PM
#45
928 Barrister
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There are so many rumors going around right now, at a time when the ink on the VW/Porsche deal isn't even dry, yet. I would not put a lot of weight on these rumors, as they are probably geared towards driving traffic to websites or selling magazines, rather than providing truthful information.
Porsche has always been an engineering and automotive technology company. They just happened to make sports cars because that was the niche they found after the war: Nobody made a small and light car the way Ferry envisioned it.
But over the years, the Porsche name (not to confuse with "Porsche Design") has been assoxiated with a variety of other products, from tanks and abulances to fork lifts and airplane cockpits, Russian auto engines, Korean SUVs, or special edition Audi and Mercedes models.
The Cayenne reaches a brand and status conscious audience that would not buy a Volkswagen - they would go to Audi, BMW, or Mercedes instead. There is nothing wrong with VW having multiple offerings in different styles and under different brands to maximize the market share of their platform, technolgy and (in case of the Cayenne body made by VW) manufacturing sites.
They already do this with many other cars of similar size in different styles, under different brands, at different price points. Killing the Cayenne would HURT the company's bottom line.
The same goes for the Panamera. Martin Winterkorn - VW's CEO even spoke about another derivative of the Panamera for Porsche, which will either be a coupe or convertible. However, I have since heard that the Panamera body would need significant modification to be stiff enough for a convertible - it might turn out not to be feasible.
Lastly, if Porsche wants to retain its dealer network and grow in emerging markets, it needs both the Cayenne and Panamera to keep the dealers open and busy all year round.
My take: Both Panamera and Cayenne are here to stay.
Porsche has always been an engineering and automotive technology company. They just happened to make sports cars because that was the niche they found after the war: Nobody made a small and light car the way Ferry envisioned it.
But over the years, the Porsche name (not to confuse with "Porsche Design") has been assoxiated with a variety of other products, from tanks and abulances to fork lifts and airplane cockpits, Russian auto engines, Korean SUVs, or special edition Audi and Mercedes models.
The Cayenne reaches a brand and status conscious audience that would not buy a Volkswagen - they would go to Audi, BMW, or Mercedes instead. There is nothing wrong with VW having multiple offerings in different styles and under different brands to maximize the market share of their platform, technolgy and (in case of the Cayenne body made by VW) manufacturing sites.
They already do this with many other cars of similar size in different styles, under different brands, at different price points. Killing the Cayenne would HURT the company's bottom line.
The same goes for the Panamera. Martin Winterkorn - VW's CEO even spoke about another derivative of the Panamera for Porsche, which will either be a coupe or convertible. However, I have since heard that the Panamera body would need significant modification to be stiff enough for a convertible - it might turn out not to be feasible.
Lastly, if Porsche wants to retain its dealer network and grow in emerging markets, it needs both the Cayenne and Panamera to keep the dealers open and busy all year round.
My take: Both Panamera and Cayenne are here to stay.
I was one of those people, until I finally drove one. Now I own one. Porsche has survived that negative experience, and I suspect that Porsche will survive this one as well.