JHowell37

Roger, what did you mean when you said "Laso old" and "Laso new?" Is there a difference?

GregBBRD

The "new" Laso has a bushing inserted between the bearing shaft and the impeller to allow a tighter press fit. Same impeller, same shaft, same casting, same everything. This is a "repair" for an existing problem. You'd have to assume that they had impellers that needed to be used up.

For the time being, I've been giving my customers a choice. Laso "new" design and Porsche new pump with plastic impeller. I stock both. Everyone, so far, has chosen the more expensive Porsche pump.

Lizard928

If you dont find another use for that WP could I get it off you?

I want to pull it apart and inspect a couple of things.

ROG100

Greg,
I do not build $30k engines let alone buy them. If I did money would be no object and I would assume that the most expensive would be the best even though failures v numbers sold say something else.
As you said the Laso pump is excellent quality when viewed from a cost v quality point of view.
I do not design and build very expensive very special engines I sell water pumps. I am asked all day and everyday what pump should I buy so I have to have an answer. I spell out the pros and cons and let my customers make the decision. They never choose the Porsche pump and only twice have they chosen the Porsche rebuild. Money talks and I respect the customers decision.
How many Porsche pumps do you sell a week - not a trick question just interested in the answer?
I fully understand where you are coming from and would probably have the same conclusion if I was in your section of the market.
Thank you again for taking the time to perfect the fix for errant WP's.
Respectfully,
Roger

Dwayne

Great info - thanks, Dave!

After I figure out my fix and if I don't need it (e.g., core charge), sure, you can have it.

GregBBRD

Roger:

I know where you are coming from and understand, completely. You need to sell what you have, in stock. Tough to "eat" water pumps.

I don't sell many pumps, perhaps 1-2 per month. Not sure what that has to do with anything....

Understand that most of my customers drive stock street cars...the big dollar engine is rare....and certainly not my "bread and butter."

However, you need to understand that your supplier sold a product that had known defects...for quite some time. It really doesn't take much of a test to heat up a pump and see how much torque it takes to have either the impeller or the pulley spin. Pretty simple quality control. This is probably especially important, when you are using cast impellers and not forged impellers, like Laso has been doing. it doesn't take much effort, in production, to measure the amount of force it takes to press things together and reject pieces that don't have enough press fit!

My attitude is simple...if you are going to built something and sell it...you'd better test it! I do this....even in the tiny quantities that I build stuff....I expect the same from everyone else. There is absolutely no reason that even one single impeller should fall off of a "new" water pump! The people that build it have to have enough quality control and engineering experience to ensure that this never happens! I don't care which version pump it is....it should never happen!

Now they have a "fix", with their "new" style pump. Great. That should do it. But wait....in the future, they apparently are going to have another "new" fix. If the "new" style is fixed and working great, why do they need "another new" style???

Pretty tough for me to logic....even rationalize....my way through this. Even harder to try to sell it to a customer.

Until I see some sort of a stable, tested, perfected, consistant, final version water pump...I'm simply afraid to buy the "perfected" Version 2 Laso pump....when they are apparently bringing out the new, "perfected" Version 3 Laso pump.

JHowell37

$900 for a new Porsche water pump is so blatantly offensive for what it is. I've got about 42K miles on my Laso with a metal impeller. I'm already gathering parts so I can do the timing belt in a few weeks. I'll go with another Laso.

ROG100

Greg,
Thanks for the input and again not a trick or clever question.
I am trying to understand failure rates and knowing the number of pumps sold helps me have an educated guess at that. I figured the volume would be low but wanted to know for sure.
Simple math - 10 pumps 1 failure = 10% failure rate
1000 pumps 2 failures = 0.2%
I am not convinced that the Porsche new pump is a reliable pump based on quantities sold.
It has a plastic impeller but at circ $800 there has to be a better more cost effect solution.
At least Laso is doing something about it - nobody else is, least of all Porsche. Just trying to be able to recomend based on facts and the poor choice we have in the first place.
I have eaten plenty of pumps - trashed 10 from HT. I send all Laso pumps back that do not have the latest collar. I check every pump personnally.
Even then they get by me. One I missed had a pulley that was not located on the shaft in the right position but luckily the owner noticed it when he fitted the TB.
I only keep one or two pumps in stock at any time as all mine are delivered the same day or within 24 hours. No need to sell inventory and only sell what the customer wants.
Roger

Cosmo Kramer

Given this info, I would just out in a new pump and but in a bigger rad to make up the temp difference, like one of the aluminum ones from 928 Intl or 928 Motorsports.

Another possible option is to build up the area with JB weld to make up the difference.

docmirror

It may sound funny, but because of this very issue, when I rebuilt my engine I reused my old pump. It was not entirely a matter of cost savings. The possibility that I could inject a new problem with a different pump led me to stick with what's been working in there.

This is a generic problem with consumer goods. Cost vs quality. I'm sure one could buy a $1000 water pump and it would be very high quality, and very low failure rates. BTW, failure rates on a water pump should actually be below 1 in 10,000 to be even remotely serviceable. But I and most others don't want to pay $1000 for a water pump. It's just one more thing in a long list of things that I'll now have to do myself to insure it's done right because NONE of the suppliers has shown me that they can get it right.

So, when MY pump goes out in this car, the solution for me will be to buy the housing, bearings, seals, and impeller(or remachine my impeller), and assemble all of the components to my specs, then test it to my specs and finally install it. What a shame.

We can't blame the suppliers of these products, they don't do the machining or assembly work. But the cost of the damage done by a bad Mexico/China rebuild is staggering in comparison to the cost of the rebuilt water pump.

F451

I'm seriously considering keeping my old water pump when I do my timing belt, tensioner, etc. I had not considered taking it off to inspect it (didn't want to snap any bolts), but now that you mention it, that may be the the logical thing to do.

I was planning on inspecting the gears and rollers before placing all of my orders as I don't want to replace anything that does not need to be, so I guess I could do the same with the water pump. Hmm....

And Dwayne, sorry to hear the bad news.

docmirror

If you go this route, have an inspection mirror handy and check the weep hole under the pulley. If not completely dry, you'll have to pull the pump. At that point, I would consider getting the seal and bearings and reuse my original housing, shaft and impeller.

GregBBRD

I think you and I simply look at this from a different perspective. We're naturally going to have a different view. Doesn't make me wrong and you right. Doesn't make me right and you wrong. We're just different.

You are interested in the "best value". I'm interested in the "best" waterpump I can install. (That's a Porsche pump, right now.) The cost of the pump has no meaning to me....it's not my money! It is my money, however, when I have to redo a job, when something fails. There's never anyone there to help pay me for my time, when things turn to crap. I've probably got 40-60 hours of "lost" time screwing with this failure, already. By the time I get this insert in and re-assemble the car, I'm sure that the price difference between a "Porsche" pump and a "Laso" pump will be insignificant.

You said that you were going to send the entire "last" thread to Laso, for their study. If that got done, why didn't they get in touch with me to help pay for repairing their inferior pump design? I would.

They didn't. That speaks volumes, to me. If they aren't stepping up and paying for the damage, or even the labor to redo it, do they even care? I would.

ptuomov

Greg and Roger --

So do I get this right?

Based on Roger's large sample, Laso news pumps are more reliable than Porsche's new pumps, although his sample of Porsche's pumps is small.

Based on Greg's experience, Porsche's new pumps are more reliable than Laso new pumps. Greg's got a smaller sample of Laso pumps than Roger, but in addition Greg's looking at the components and logically concluding that Laso can't be very reliable.

In addition, both of you agree that the catasthrophic failure is less likely to be caused by failing Porsche pump than by a Laso pump, because the Porsche pump has a plastic impeller and the Laso pump has a metal impeller.

Also, both of you think that there are significant differences between various version of the Laso pump and all of them should be inspected before installing them.

Is this fair and balanced summary?

ROG100

Tuomo,
Sorry but my math was an example not a reality. Just an illustration.

Facts - Very few Porsche new pumps are sold and they have been know to fail - not good when working out a % failure.
Laso have had failures but based on a % of pumps sold the rate is very small - less than 0.5%
The improved Laso pump has no known failures at the moment - very good. I am not saying it will not fail but its track record looks promising.
Rebuilds - thousands sold and based on what we know about 0.5% failure rate. Not bad but when you take into acount the fact the same pumps are being rebuilt time and time again with no records or consideration to fit and function - that is scary and a large bomb waiting to happen.

Currently some rebuilds have plastic impellers as do the Porsche pumps. Laso will shortly also have a plastic impeller.

All pumps I sell must be inspected - no exceptions.

Greg did disect some of the pumps and concluded that the internals of the Laso and the Porsche pumps were good quality.

Greg,
For the record I know exactly where you are and respect your decision on the Porsche pump. In your shoes I would use the same.
Roger

I sell water pumps and need to fully understand the possibilities that exist.
When a customer says he can't afford a $800 pump there has to be some compromises. I have to be able to point those out. We can't just say park your car until you can afford it.

This is not about Greg or Roger - its about WP's and what considerations need to be taken into acount when buying a WP. Cost v failure.

Plastic impeller does away with the reaming of the block but also has its own downsides as some have found.