Cost of S4 engine rebuild?
 

Mine is no where near this but I like the car well enough that when it does become time I may. Min is a 1989 with about 135000 miles on the motor. No problems now as far as oil consumption or TB failure....just for future reference.
If all major componants ( block, crank, cams ) are good what does it cost to freshen up a S4? I can do all assembly myself. Any machine work will need to be done by a professional. By professional I mean someone who knows what their doing and not just charges you for it.

All prices totally off the top of my head:

gasket set $500
connecting rod nuts $32
Piston rings $90
Valve stem seals $80
Valve collets $32
Oil drainback valve bits $40
Valve guides (if needed) $200
main bearings $250
rod bearings $200?
waterpump $250
cam chains $60
chain tensioner pads $250
new lightweight lifters (?) $400
Hall sensor $105
TPS $60
CPS $55
ISV $150
Temp II sensor $40
Knock sensors $75
All intake hoses - $250?
Fuel injector cleaning $160

So a (probably incomplete) parts list = $3000, then there's labor. If you can pull it, disassemble it and clean everything satisfactorily, you'd save some money.

You are way low on some parts Rob, just the hoses under the intake are going to be a grand.
Porsche rod bearings are going to cost you a grand.
A Porsche water pump is close to a grand.
Lifters are close to 65 each, and you need 32 of them.
I had really close to 2 grand in machine shop charges.
I cant remember what the Cometic head gaskets were, but it was either 100 or 200 each.
Gonna need all new cooling hoses 600 min.
Porsche timing belt 100, kens tennisioner set up, new gears and you are at another grand.
A couple of hundred for powder coating.
And more little stuff than you can think of.

No way you are going to do it right for less than 7 grand in parts and machine shop charges, at least i do not see how you can do it.

Dean- you gotta move back to Kville if you feel like getting into this!!!:jumper:

That sounds about right Rob.

EDIT: wow y'all beat me to it... You gotta be quick on the draw around here... I just bought all of this stuff. If you are selective, about 5 to 6 grand can do it. It all just depends on your ability to NOT replace every thing under the hood... Which clearly, I could not bring myself to do....

But then add:

Timing belt: 100
Porkensioner: 300
Cam sprockets (if worn): 200
Silicone vacuum lines: 100
All oil and water hoses: 400
Cleaning supplies: 100
Oil pump gear (if worn): 100
Plus if hydrolic tappets are the small style, they will need to me replaced if there has been any debris in the oil: about 700?
Heads surfaced and prepped: 300
Misc hardware, head bolts, exhaust studs, etc..: 300


There is probably some more I missed but this brings the price closer to what you will spend.

Greg-

All of the prices I quoted are ballpark prices on what I've actually paid for items in the last three years. VW lifters can be had for $12 a piece, and I just bought all the intake rubber for the stroker for about $250:

brake venturi Y to brake booster 9.63
right front cam cover to oil filler 15.28
Right Y at air guide elbow to oil filler- GTS 23.20
Left Y at air guide elbow to venturi 14.29
Left Y ar air guide elbow to Idle Stabilizer valve 21.75
ISV to TB housing 13.04
3 way hose TB to oil filler and evap vent valve 29.87
Left intake side cover to brake venturi 12.7
vacuum hose rubber elbows 31.70
MAF to TB big elbow 49.97

Roger's got knock sensors for $32, a CPS for $56, the ISV can be had for $140 if you play the coupons and shipping online game, I just bought a new factory pump for $597, etc., etc. So these are 'best scenario' prices, and may not reflect what you can get 'em for today, in July 2009.

But I left a bunch of things out, as Mike listed (you could add the freeze plugs for the oil galleys in the heads, a new crank gear, oil pump gear, etc. etc), and I completely agree that you're looking at at least $7K if you're going to be doing any head work (which one would be/should be at 135K+ miles)

You guys must get parts and machine shop work done far cheaper than I can. :thumbup:

Some of the things can be done differently.

New rod bearings were not a grand when I got them,

Timing belt, go gates, $42.
WP doesnt have to be Porsche new.

As well there are alot of other things on this list that some would simply replace just because. And there are others who would replace everything just because!
Prime example is the hydraulic lifters, you can check these outside of the car, and if you properly clean everything reusing them is not an issue.

You are paying way too much buddy. Talk about getting ripped off.

If a 928 owner came to my shop wanting a engine refresh, I would quote 12-15 grand if I did all the work and found no major problems.

I think that is great that you got all the hoses for the intake for 250, I paid over a grand for mine.
Was all of yours Porsche or was it some kind of OEM stuff?

I've got a source, but I've been sworn to secrecy...

Factory parts are expensive, but not as expensive as cheap parts in the long run.

I will pull my invoices and see if I do not recall right.

as far as the water pump, did we just not have a thread on Porsche raising the price to 1200 for a new pump?
I will never put anything but a new Porsche WP on mine again.

If I did get ripped off, at least I know I got 100% real factory parts, and to me that is worth something as far as peace of mind goes, for the most part.

Are you quoting what you pay for the parts or what you SELL them for because with a bit of research and time plus waiting for parts it is possible for anyone to buy at near wholesale prices.....anyone ! Many shops tend to pay more just to eliminate all the shopping around , deal with a known business, and get the parts on time ( some suppliers make multiple DAILY deliveries) to keep the job rolling besides they tend to just mark them up and bill the customer. The Hobbiest at home can take YEARS to rebuild an engine....

What I pay for parts.
with some suppliers I get 15-20% off list.
I am a big fan of factory parts on customers cars.

And you are 100% right on the highlighted parts, I can not afford to have a car on a lift for weeks.
Get em in, get em out.

Is it really true that one can't get rod bearings for less than a grand?

I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(

It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.

In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)

I think porsche rod bearing sets are a little over $400, the OEM ones are like 140$ a set.

In some slight chance that you got the right size bearings the first time, and they are not returnable and they are 30 per half.
By the time you buy enough to get a set that fits from Porsche, you will have more than a grand in them

Many here have had good luck with the Glyco's, they are far cheaper, but they are about .001 tighter than the factory ones.
I have to admit, the Glyco's is what I used in mine, just because I did not know how many I would have to buy to get a set that worked.
If I could have returned any that were the wrong size I would have put the factory ones in mine.

Tight is not good on a hi-Po 928.

EDIT: I was wrong, they are right at 30 each, if you look up the price online and see them marked down, call and see how many you can get at the low price, like I did.

Once again, how many are you going to have to buy to get a set that works?

He is right about the porsche rod bearings, I totally forgot about the correct clearances. if they are not the correct size then you have to buy a new set, so by the time you find the correct clearance you may well be close to 1000 $ in rod bearings. I got OEMs, but I have not measured them yet.

Got five bucks that says they will all be under .002 with some close to .0015

Tuomo, have you investigated having the bearings nitrided? Maybe this will harden them up? Or even just getting them coated. I don't know but just having a guess.

Greg
I agree with what you said in regard to Factory parts, my best example is rack boots, the Porsche's were replaced once in 25 years, my generic boots on a domestic car were getting replaced every year! Now they have changed the formulation and they come with a two year warranty. Guess I will be changing them every three now.

Greg

Seems to me these motors rarely wear out, so rebuilding will depend on the level of mess up from owner abuse. One of my motors was pretty decent once apart, so I haven't decided on new rings, or bearings.

The prices Rob is quoting, is coming FROM PORSCHE, where all the parts come in Porsche bag, not OEM parts, but factory OE parts. Yes they are very very reasonable.

If you paid $1000 for all those oil control rubber lines under the intake, i have a bridge i would like to sell you.

Seriously, i think its time you shop around, i would be pissed if someone charged me that much, actually i wouldn't, i would just look elsewhere.

also if i recall the Porsche OE Rod bearings are allot more expensive then the main bearing sets which is a modest $250. Which is great because main bearings are supplied ONLY by porsche, there is no OEM Glyco alternative for mains. The OEM rod bearings are much cheaper then what porsche charges, same with rings.

I spent about $2200 on the GT engine i rebuilt and i used all Porsche parts.

Its actually such a rewarding job, and relatively inexpensive that regardless of mileage on any GTS i buy in the future, the engine is coming out and being refreshed. It allows me to reseal everything and make some updates as well.

Rebuilding a 93 GTS engine with updated rods and so on gets to be quite a bit more expensive then an S4 rebuild. But once you have that new lump, you wont need to work on it for a long time which is very nice.

I am not even an amateur tribologist, so let's double down on the caveat emptors before writing/reading the below:

It's my understanding that the crank journal has to be hard and the bearing soft, relatively speaking. The bearing is basically a consumable, and the journal is supposed to last forever.

Also, if there are particles in the oil, then the bearing has to be soft enough to absorb those particles deep enough in the material such that they don't damage the crank.

Gas nitriding or DLC coating of the journal (i.e., the crank) makes sense. Dry film lubricant coating makes sense on the bearing. Here's one place to get your bearings coated: http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10966 This is not going to break a bank, I think the they charge $8 per bearing or less with larger quantities.

The Australians have cheap forged 4340 steel H-beam 928 rods in stock in case you ever need to update a '93 GTS. They are lighter, stronger, and cheaper than the revised GTS rods.

The parts from one of the big three to do a intake refresh with 2 knock sensors, just gaskets and rubber was right at 800 bucks, when I looked it up a minute ago, you throw a maf rebuild or a TPS and you are going to be at a grand, any way you want to look at it.

I called my local Porsche dealer (who I get 20% off list with) and got prices on every thing before I ordered all the parts for mine, I did every thing but the ISC and I know wish it was new also.

I think a lot of the difference is that I am going to replace everything, some folks wont.

If I build a engine, there will be very few old parts in it, and the ones that I do reuse will have been reworked in some fashion.

To each there own, but I know what it cost me, and I did look around at least three places.

I think we have very different ideas on what constitutes a rebuilt VS repaired engine.

So what did you replace in your "Rebuilt" engine that you could do it for $2200?

Honestly, I find that hard to believe that a lot was done to your motor for that little amount of money using only Porsche parts.

One of my BBC rebuilds is way more than that.:cheers:

I can get parts cheaper than all but a few here, and that is the price I am talking about.

To do a intake refresh is going to be close to a grand in parts, for me or for a customer.

Go to 928 SP and add up all the rubber bits for a intake refresh and a couple of knock sensors, gonna be a lot more than the 250 some one said.

You ever seen a 20 year old S4 that did not need knock sensors and every hose there?
Most are going to need a TPS also.

I rebuilt mine for three reasons.
I was not happy with the leak down.
I was not happy with the crank end play
I wanted to know why it had low oil pressure and some lifters ticking.

I really did not do it because of how long a chevy lasts.
I work on European cars, not chevys other than my Corvette

I just reviewed a parts list from two years ago what was for what I call "the full monty" engine reseal. Note that this doesn't touch the long block. This is just a full WP/TB (with rebuilt WP), intake, cam covers, water bridge, oil neck and associated bits and pieces. The price at the time was $1900 in parts. Powder-coating was extra. Injector replacement or refurbish is extra. Heck, that doesn't even include a new air filter.

I have noted for decades (and collected real data in support) that folks that do not keep meticulous track of their time and expense - and aren't accountable for either - usually grossly under-estimate both. This is true for folks that "estimate" wrenching work just like it is true for folks that write software.

I have been working up some figures for insurance and Appraisal reasons on my 87, and I have just started, and frankly, I am shocked at this point.

Well since you asked

The car was a timing belt failure engine so was torn down to replace bent valves. In doing so i decided to replace the rings and rod bearings but left the mains as they were. Engine covered 110K miles so i didnt touch mains.

The list is nearly identical to Robs really with some additions and some subtractions.

I bought Glyco rod bearings from a 944 supplier for i believe $160 for 16 halves. I also bought OEM 944 rings for less than $20 for each piston.

I bought a bunch of intake valves from someone off ebay, only needed 2 of those though, and i bought 4 used exhaust valves from Garrity. (Something like that, i forget the valve count) I bought OEM valve seals for $1 each from an online retailer that i found, and all the gaskets, the timing belt, the rollers and oil lines and flappy etc etc all came from Sunset Porsche. The entire gasket set which includes those $15 each exhaust manifold gaskets was about $460 for the Porsche set. Oddly it doesnt include the above mentioned valve seals.

Later i found that you can buy Bosch ISV, TPS and Temp II sensors from auto zone for $140, $60 and $20 respectively. These were a nice surprise as they were clearly "Bosch" parts in a bag which said "Wells" And they were very cheap.

As for MAF, I sent it to Colorado, Injection Labs, that cost $150, but I think its now $165 last i checked. I bought a universal O2 sensor that i spliced for $60 from 928 INTL and the valve covers and intake i paid $40 to have them media blasted to give a nice porous finish to which i then painted with an over the counter wrinkle finish and later added another top coat to change the color slightly.

I originally bought Febi/bilstein cam chains, but they looked really weak so i returned those which cost $15 each and bought the OE Porsche ones for I believe $30 each although it could have been less then that. A silicon pan gasket went on and a GTS baffle and OE oil filters also from porsche. The car had a recent HAL sensor and had new plug wires and some other stuff added prior to my purchase, knock sensors were also recently replaced. Although I recently bought 4 knock sensors for $20 each from a vendor online. Funny enough the 16V VW GTI i have uses the exact same knock sensors so ive got a bunch of those things floating around.

What else..... Injectors i had sent out to Cruzin, but its impractical to do that when you can buy later Bosch Design II ford injectors for the same price and just add the 928 o-ring to them. I have a new set of Design II injectors with proper o-rings laying around someplace too.

When i tore the engine down it was completely cleaned, The pistons were soaked in a solvend to dissolve the caked on carbon on the piston tops and clean out the ring lands, the heads were de-carbonized, the valves were cleaned to like new and i even polished them. Polishing valves is likely a waste of time, Rob Edwards had a much better system of just media blasting them as opposed to what i did which was use a wire wheel and bench grinder to remove the caked on carbon. Valve guides were still tight so they werent touched. I never replaced lifters although had i known at the time that $12 lifters existed i sure would have. Another interesting thing i saw in Rob's list in new valve collets. At $1 each thats really cheap although i never thought those would require replacing. On the next rebuild i will do that though.

I think that covers it. Yeah its not what i would call a "remanufactured engine" but it was completely gone through and was over and above what was required for a relatively simple timing belt failure.

If you could get $12,000-$15,000 to do that work then i need to get my own shop!

But i do believe these engines, and these cars in general are extremely reasonable to fix, all the parts are available, all the electronics can be rebuilt by people in the US or overseas, and every major mechanical component can be repaired, rebuilt or what have you. For what was once considered a supercar, these really are very very reasonable cars to repair, I really have no qualms with parts cost with these cars.

but your mileage may vary........ :cheers:

okay this might be out of the subject of this thread but, are these VW lifters reliable ?
I got all my lifters mixed up, does this mean I have to buy new lifters ? I dont know if the lifters were making noise before I took it apart.

FWIW, I bought my first 928 on 5/27/06, and started a spreadsheet that day. I have a record of what I have paid, down to the penny, for the purchase price, every new and used part, every tool for the garage and all the labor (not mine) on the 90GT, the 93GTS, three sets of wheels and the stroker project (so far). So I'm painfully aware of what everything costs. I have bought plenty of things to discover them available cheaper somewhere else, so the prices I quoted are the best case scenario. So it may not be a realistic snapshot of the prices. One of the great things about buying a 2nd 928 is you can get a second chance at buying the same part (again) for a better price..... :)

You sure have a lot of non Porsche parts for using only Porsche parts........in your 2200 repair.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.

PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.

Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.

That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.

Greg:

What are you doing being involved in this discussion? You can't win this one!

A rebuilt engine should last as long as the original did...a "repaired" engine will not.

One would hope this statement does not apply to certain 93 GTS engines.

Meaning - the rebuilt engine should last much longer.

Yep, you know the difference in what looks the same as well as I do.

My better half just said "Whats so funny?" after I read that.
Good one.

The parts i bought at autozone said Bosch on them. They werent some made in who knows where off brand, they were bosch parts, so i dont know what your going on about here.

And yes you need to be selective in what you buy. I have no idea what an OE ISV costs from Porsche, i bet its a few hundred more then the $140 i paid.

Yeah there maybe differences in tolerance from an OEM Bosch ISV to an OE Porsche/Bosch ISV but i cant think its that different that its justified to pay 3x the price.

Your also right that yes when i look at my list i didnt use ONLY OE porsche parts, you got me there.

The point remains that i rebuilt (whether you want to call it refreshed, rebuilt or whatever i could really care less) a timing belt failure car and refreshed or whatever you wanna call it the majority of the engine. I was very happy with the end result and i was also happy to find that it didnt cost a whole lot either.

I guess you will find different people spending different amounts for their projects, i choose not to pay more then i need to but i dont think your correct in suggesting that because i was selective of where i bought the items and at what time i bought them that there was anything sub par with the parts i put onto the car. Simply put, only OE or OEM parts were on that car. Also, That engine rebuild was done over about an 18 month period so i wasnt shopping for everything on a short time basis, this allowed me to pick up what i thought was a deal from time to time and in the end i had collected everything i needed for not a whole lot of coin.

+928

If you "rebuild' your own engine and screw it up or decide not to replace a couple of parts because they "look ok" it's no big deal (relatively). Your labor is free and you get what you pay for.

But, if you rebuild someone else's engine you can't play the "looks good" game. You have to know that it is good.

How many people here would pull their own intake not replace every breather hose under it? How many people would pay someone to remove their intake and replace all but one of the breather hoses under it?

Exactly, and those cam chains you did not use were OEM parts.

As long as you are happy, it makes no difference to me either way, but when folks try to make others think there is no difference in a Factory and OEM parts, well I have a different view on that.

We just differ on our views, that is all. :cheers:

By Blown 87

Greg I think in regard to the mains but not including the thrust bearing in general these can be visually inspected along with plastic gauge to see the state of play and that would include looking for inclusions in the bearings. I haven't seen an 928 engine that didn't have some wear on the thrust bearing though.

In regard to the heads Ryan how close did you check those exhaust guides? I would be extremely surprised if they were in tolerance, the only way they might be is if the car was a one owner and the owner had always used oils high in ZDDP and other wear additives, if it was running thin synthetics those guides would be toast in pretty short order.

We just pulled down a 30 K mile S4 engine and they were worn over a thou more than the wear limit, putting new seals will only disguise the problem and to me valve seals are something I am fussy about. The intakes btw were still in spec.

I am not taking sides here as there has been many truthful statements, the $12 to $15K cost to do this job is realistic and you wont get rich by doing them either, you will only need to pull the heads off that engine again and you have made nothing and have been bent over a Porsche engine bay for close to a month, my back is aching just thinking about that:surr:.

There is many different standards when it comes to OEM, I would have thought that Bosch's would have been pretty good but just like I thought Textar's brake pads and another brand of German rotors were O.K on my Merc until it wouldn't stop,:confused: fit the genuine parts, problem solved.

Cheers Greg

This is very well worded and right on target. This should have been post #2 in this thread and a whole bunch of "I can do it much cheaper" discussion would have been avoided.

I'm certain that I could walk around my shop and pluck out enough "pretty darn good" used pieces to repair an entire fleet of 928 engines...cam gears, hoses, knock sensors, you name it, etc. I actually save and give this stuff to people that are trying to "repair" a problem, as cheaply as possible. All of this stuff would last way past any warranty period on any car...some of it wouldn't cause any problems past 30,000 miles. But this would not be rebuilt, in my mind, or Greg's mind.

If you've ever really measured a valve guide, per the factory spec, you'd know the valve guide could almost be "missing" before it got past the limits. These limits are printed for the "foolish" people that can't tell when something is worn out and needs to be replaced when apart. These limits are printed to tell someone..."heh, the reason you are using buckets of oil in your engine is that the valve now has the ability to almost turn upside down in the guide." No one leaves exhaust valve guides in an engine with 100,000 miles on it and honestly calls it "rebuilt"....because it is not! It has been repaired!

Taking apart a cam belt failure engine, replacing the obviouly bent and broken pieces with all the cheapest and used parts you can find is not rebuilding. That's repairing. Yes, it might run fine and last for many miles....the 928 version of the internal combustion engine is pretty forgiving before wear causes running problems.

There's a desire and a market for both rebuilding and repairing. Anyone "flipping" cars is going to be a repairer, since they are trying to maximise their profit. They know it....we know it...the buyer should be smart enough to know it.

I understand and know how to do both....I just elect not to do one of them, when I'm "rebuilding" an engine. I'm really up front about his.

Here's how I deal with this: If a potential customer walks in and says...."I don't want to spend much money on this...I'm only going to keep it long enough to get it running good and sell it.", well, this almost never happens, because they never get past the "phone interview and application to do work for this person" stage. There's a bunch of shops, out there, that survive and thrive on this type of customer...put the two together and you're a hero!

If a customer says "Well, I want it to be correct, but I've only driven it 30,000 miles in the past 15 years, is there a way to save a few dollars on this repair?", I have ways to help and will. Now, if this same customer shows up, 30,000 miles later and doesn't remember this conversation and is bitchin about something....and this does happen.....I pull out his invoice and point out where he signed sections about using used or not perfect parts. People have "selective memories."

If a customer says "I beat the crap out of it and want it to run it very hard, forever!", I know exactly how to do this!

Thanks Greg.

My comment on the intake was based upon an hours-old experience: I'd just pulled an intake. The intake gaskets were almost new - they couldn't be more than a couple years old tops. The forward breather hose was like necrotic flesh and had big holes. The car has a stack of receipts from a Porsche dealer (and others (but not some shop called Precision Motorwerks :)))

So, someone paid to have the intake pulled. Someone decided to "save money" by not replacing a $35 hose - probably because it "looked good." One knock sensor is almost new too. The other? Way, way, old from stem to stern. :confused:

I'd have to agree with the pro contingent on the valve guides. If the valves are off the head, I don't see why not to pay the $1k to have the guides replaced. Especially the exhaust valve guides. Especially the exhaust valve guides of a 928.

(And now half the people are getting mad at me because $1k is too high and other half because it's too low).


Attachment 370967


Apropos nothing, what's up with the 928 S4 valvetrain? The below are just my observations after looking at seven heads, so these are obviously questions and not answers. Sims show some weird dynamics, the valves get tossed and the whole system resonates like a mother... resonator. The exhaust valve guides are worn and loose even on a low-miles fire-damaged engine. The exhaust valve grooves are sometimes so beat up that the valves don't want to come out from the guides, even with all that wear in the guides. The S4 cams have systematic damage, which to an amateur like me looks like the bucket and the valve are not keeping up with the cam. The S4 springs have this thick lower washer piece that is clearly an afterthought. Somebody please explain me what's happened here?

The valve guides i would have replaced were i doing it again. Regardless of what I measured when the valves are out, yeah your probably better off just replacing them.

As to the other point of rebuilding, I did it on a budget. Did I have $20,000 to spend having Greg rebuild the engine, or $30,000 to turn it into a stroker, NO i did not. I do look at the economics of the car. I bought my first GT for $5,000, so I was on a budget to begin with. Sure you can spend whatever you want on your car, but it didnt make financial sense to me to spend that kind of money to rebuild (or repair if you insist Greg) an engine. Point is that the car performed as I had hoped and in the end was a a great lesson for me and something that in the end was a great joy to go through. Had it been common knowledge that a valve damage engine would REQUIRE a $10,000 rebuild, i wouldnt have bothered. Much as the same that i cant really consider a "market valve" 986 or 996 (i would still love to have one, but at the right price) because those engines do have some issues but they are not repairable as there arent parts for them. The simple answer on those engines is a $10,000 replacement engine for porsche. When $10,000 rebuild is the only option on a car that that costs less than $20,000 i will look elsewhere.

Also look at the the numbers here, the last S4 I sold, which was by no means perfect but which was certainly above average I sold for $10,000. I have an S4 now that i couldnt sell to anyone on this board for $4,000. Sometimes the numbers dont make sense, and I do look at the numbers because i dont like to loose money on cars. I did that with BMW's but I learned that lesson and will try my best not to get into those situations.

There is nothing wrong with fixing something, or repairing something to a budget, that seems to be something thats coming up here now honestly. I think you must set limits on projects like this otherwise your one of those guys that are here that have $50,000 into a car that is only worth $20,000. If i had that kinda money to spend on a car, I would just take the car in my Avatar and JUST DRIVE, not worry about fixing things, or working on constantly evolving projects. I have learned that i do really enjoy the work though, so long as it doesnt become so much so that it overwhelms you, which can happen when you have too many cars, as i feel i do now.

I also dont think that because you paid more for the same parts then i did that yours is going to be better. If you try to convince yourself of that then thats just silly.

I did call Greg way back when to get a price on a valve job with new exhaust guides and it was very reasonable, actually less then i had thought going in. The only problem was that I was at the time getting ready to move from LA to Austin and he needed a few months turn around and that didnt work for my schedule. In hindsight i didnt actually get to installing that engine in the car until at least 6 months later so It would have been the way to go. I didnt do that but I also dont loose sleep at night because i didnt. Its just something to learn, its a notch on the experience belt and is one of those things you think of when the next rebuild comes around.

For those of you that don't know it, Ryan is one of the good guys. Sometimes he has opinions that are hard to relate to, but sometimes I do, too! And the rest of you...aren't perfect, either! I've helped him in the past, and I'll help him again, if needed. He's not out there "hacking" things back together and "stealing people's money."

I respect what he is doing with these cars. Sure, he could be on the long list of others that are buying them and cutting them up, just to make a few dollars, but he chooses, instead, to buy cars and fix them up. I'm sure that this is part hobby and part making a few dollars....but I'm also certain that he could probably make more money cutting lawns on the weekend....so it is probably mostly hobby.

While not new, I'd guess that these cars are excellent cars to buy and own...well above the "average" used 928 that is for sale.

I've taken a bunch of these engines apart and put them back together. I replace pieces that look pretty good...because these pieces are "excepted" as replacement pieces in a rebuild...and they aren't going to last for another 80,000 miles. Are these pieces junk? Nope. I've got a couple of sets of main bearings sitting around that could be used in a minute, if Porsche suddenly no longer had main bearings! I've got a box of cam gears that either are just showing aluminum or you can almost "imagine" are showing aluminum. If Porsche suddenly quit selling new cam gears, some of these could be used, without thought. Hell, I've even got hoses that go under the intake that look and feel almost new. If Porsche runs out, I've got good ones to use!

I understand what Ryan did/does. He shopped around and found good deals on good pieces. He didn't waste money, but he also wasn't straightening bent valves in his drill press with a hammer!

I want to see someone try this!!! I think it would be a hoot to watch!

There are certain things that I dont skimp on either and FOE gears are one of those things.

I am guilty of not knowing enough about head repair to do it my self, I just take them to my machine shop guy and say give me a estimate after they have been cleaned, torn down and inspected.

The OP asked what it cost to rebuild a motor, I gave him what I thought was a fairly honest answer, he did not ask how much it cost to repair damage from a t-belt failure.

On my own cars, not ones for customers, I am very guilty of putting way to much in them.
Honestly I still need to put more into mine than it will ever be worth.
IE wheels, tires, a bunch of Pauls work and a blower.
On my cars it is a hobby for me and not a cost/loss issue.
Heck it was running when I took it apart.

On a car that you own and are trying to repair for resale, now that is a whole different game.

I still do work for used car lots, they want it as cheap as they can get it.
That work is done and billed out as American and Import Auto Repair, not Greg's Garage.

It is different when it is your name and reputation on the line and you do this to put food on the table.

I agree with that, nothing wrong at all of repairing on a budget on your own cars.

I knew going in on my C4 and my S4 that I would have over X $ in the cars.
In hind sight, I would have done exactly what I did with the C4, because I like the body style.

Not sure I can say the same about the S4 though, I may have been better off to start with a GTS or maybe a GT, but I am one of these folks that just can not leave good enough alone.

I knew that I would find just about as many problems with a 50,000 mile 15 year old car as I would with a 100,000 mile 20 year old car.

So Ryan, I mean no disrespect at all to you, I just think we are looking at things from a different perspective.

IF they are the same parts I agree, but many times they are just parts from the same manufacture, and they are not the same.

I am not trying to poke at you Ryan, but did the TPS and other Bosch parts you got from Autozone have the same part number on it as the factory part?

If not then how can you know they are the same?

If so then I stand corrected and will start buying them from Autozone, it will save my customers money and I will have no problem using them.

When some one pays me to do work on their car, they deserve to get what they are paying for


I went through a deal a few years ago with Girling rotors for some Volvos, I was told, and I really thought they were the same, they looked the same, but they were absolutely not the same.

My better half is very hard on brakes, I was putting a set of rotors and pads on her Volvo about every three months using what I thought were the same parts.
I tried using Volvo factory pads with the Girling rotors and not much changed.
It was only when I started putting Volvo rotors on it, with Volvo pads did I start getting good service out of them.

:cheers:

Blown,

Since your so interested in my ISV, here have a look for yourself. You tell me what the OEM Bosch ISV PN is and compare it to mine in the pic. Or tell me what the OE Porsche one is and let me know if you can see a difference.

I dont know how to link the actual thread, so if someone would like to do that, then have at it. But if you want to search, its an August 4th 2008 thread and you can find it under the topic line "Ive finally joined the rock steady idle club"

Do a search

I cant make out the numbers on the isv, i dont care enough to look really. Another note, the discoloration seen on the case of the TPS is actually dust... go figure.

NOTE: the parts came out of an autozone store in Round Rock TX which is just north of Austin, so if Autozone has different warehouses they distribute from then your mileage may vary on this one, but i doubt it.

Bosch is Bosch...no matter who's hands it came through. If the part numbers are correct, they are the same part.

Neither Greg or I would call and check with Autozone to see if they had parts for these cars, like these. We'd just assume that we'd get some Chinese piece designed for a Ford that was "close" to correct. Amazing they had these pieces! Nice find!

THATS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT!

This is why i posted it, cause i NEVER EVER thought i would buy anything for the 928 at autozone except for OIL, i wouldnt even buy their filters there.

The thing that was most interesting to me at the time was THE BAG THAT THEY CAME IN!

back to the original ???

"how much does it cost to rebuild a 928 engine"

ANSWER: as much as you have to spend + little bit (or alot depending on your budget)

Repair costs and results vary, a LOT. This thread tries to compare shop costs with DIY and I don't see the point. In the practical world of keeping old 928's on the road, both are essential, but the results are too different.

Retail and wholesale parts costs vary, a LOT. Retail is a totally price driven commodity market, and wholesale is a complicated service industry with free same day delivery, painless returns, knowledgeable parts guys, and the price passed on to the consumer with a fixed markup as profit for the shop. Retail prices are often MUCH cheaper, but on terms unacceptable to shops, essentially the opposite of wholesale supplier's.

There are some amazing people on this list, but I've watched Greg rebuilding a motor, and I suspect the number that do work of the same quality is very small. Not just professional, but the sort of perfection you only get after doing a large number of the same type motor and working out the best materials and methods for each step. No offense intended, but does anybody think a DIY rebuild adds resale value to a 928? Maybe about half the parts cost is my guess.

Hi Dean,

You surely got this place jumping with your seemingly easy question. But I don't see where your question was answered simply. I will try from my experiences and conversations from owners who went down this rabbit hole:

1. Refresh your engine with no problems being found, doing your own work, just replacing things as needed and lots of cleaning, budget about $5000.00 and up.

2. Refresh your engine and having things machined, replacing some damaged/used up components and other things WYIT some with nothing to do with the engine, such as transmission service, TT rebuild, motor mounts, steering rack, A/C, fuel injectors, new radiator, etc., budget about $10,000 and up depending what you have done.

3. Rebuilding your engine to as new standards using Porsche parts doing your own assembly, budget about $10,000 and up. Double that figure if you do other things WYIT as in #2.

4. Rebuilding your engine as a stroker, "because since I'm doing this anyway might as well increase my HP/TQ a little more," budget about $15,000 and up.

You can see that there is really no way to figure out a strict budget because of all the variables. I have talked to many people who start this project and spend at least double what they intended. Gotchas include the engine not running right after the rebuild and having to go in again. Just because you put the engine together does not mean it will work. Even if you had a pro mechanic do it, present company excluded of course. I'm sure Greg B. has some great stories of re-doing "rebuilt" engines from other mechanics.

Do not listen to those who say it can be done for a few thousand dollars by yourself. Unless you have built up Porsche engines, and specifically 928 engines, there will be a learning curve and some how you will pay for the privilege of learning it.

HTH,

So you don't know if they are the same part number or not.
I would have thought you would have checked to see if they were the same.

I suspect that the only way you are going to get a Greg Brown quality motor is to have Greg Brown build it.

Just an FYI there is a great machine shop here in OC that is very cost effective. I first found out about them through Porsche Motorsports and since then they have bored many blocks and done plenty of heads for me.

Engine Supply
304 E Dyer St
Santa Ana Ca 92707
Mike 714-556-0310

Ausil bore $350
4 valve head $105 (guides extra)

That is a very solid deal. Thanks for posting. Michael

I am curious for those that have done the guides. How much material tends to need to be lathed off of the outside of the guides. Or is this not required for our guides?

OH JESUS

COME ON! I posted the damn picture, you tell me if they are the same or not? I dont have anything to cross reference it with so it doesnt matter. I dug up the thread and the picture for you, now your still giving me **** about the part numbers and wether or not its ACTUALLY for a 928?

your kidding right?

Ryan, I applaud your tenacity in trying to keep 928 ownership affordable. You make some strong arguements that I certainly identify with. Spending 10K on an engine going into a depreciating 4K car makes absolutely no sense to me. I nice GT or GTS yes, a run of the mill S4 daily driver no. I think you have struck a nerve with those that feel that spending more always guarantees a better job.

Spending more does not guarantee a better job, no way.
Not knowing if the right parts are put on does not guarantee that either.

I can think of dozens of applications for the Bosch IAC's that look just like the one Ryan posted, and they are not the same.

There is no way to tell them apart with out looking at the part number.
Simple as that.

I can get Volvo Bosch IAC's cheap, real cheap, look just like the one posted, but it is not the right part.

then again, look at the picture i posted on your behalf

why on earth would i present this otherwise? Why dont you LOOK at what i posted so you can either make a point, or drop you insinuations about the parts i installed on that car last year. I dont know why you carry on with this, the answer is right there on page 4. Either its the same or it isnt, you tell me, there is no need to guess anymore at this point.

After reading this thread and doing the math I think my plans for the possibility that I blow my engine will include parting out my S4 and buying something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/996-9...9%3A1|72%3A317

I looked again at what you posted, it looks like any other Bosch IAC that could go on many, many other cars.
As far as why you posted a picture of some Bosh parts that could have went on hundreds of cars, I do not know why you posted it.

Ryan you have said you did not look at the part numbers, if you did not there is no way to tell if it is the right part or not.

Can you not understand that?

How about I go grab one from out of the spares room and post a picture of it, do you think you can tell me if it is the right part for a 928 or not?

It will look just like the one you posted?


I am telling you from 35 years of working on cars, the last 20 working on all brands of European cars, there is a difference in IAC's from Bosch that look the same.

Do you honestly think that a IAC from a 4 cylinder BMW will work on ever other car with a Bosch IAC on it?

Trust me, I have tried it, and that is why I go with part numbers.

I am glad yours worked for you, and you saved money, but you are missing a very simple concept.

THE PART NUMBER IS CLEARLY POSTED it looks like a 9 digit number

blow it up and make it out, its very simple, and yes i know most ISV's are the same shape and of similar size, but the number is very clearly shown in the shot.

I am hesitant to make it out because i dont have a program that can enlarge it where the numbers dont get blurry.

But if i had to guess, i would say the Bosch PN is 280 140 545

I am almost certain on the first 6, the last 3 is a crapshoot

So now please go pull your 928 Bosch ISV off the shelf and tell me what yours says, then we can stop this insinuation that i used a 4 cylinder bmw ISV, or some other generic bosch isv that looked similar on that car and it magically worked....... thank you

I am not insinuating any thing, simply making a point that you can not tell with out part numbers.

You said look at the pictures, it is right, great yours worked.
BTW, all of the Bosch IAC's have 9 digit numbers, not just Porsche.

No where did I say you used a BMW part, get your facts right.
You show me where I have said anything like that or that you used to wrong parts?

What I said was two parts can look alike and not be alike, the only way to tell is by part number.

Your the one that started all this about how you built a S4 motor using all Porsche parts for 2200$, but when you posted what you used it was far from all Porsche parts.

I am done trying to make you understand a simple fact.

This may be besides the point, but I think idle control actuator should work well across systems even if it is not the exact same part. The reason why I think (but do not know) this is that idle is controlled using a closed loop, which (within limits) automatically adjusts to the properties of the specific actuator.

so what is the Bosch PN of the ISV that you have?

are you verifying that the one i have (or had) is the exact same as the one you have on your shelf?

Also as to true rebuild cost, I am planning on getting a GTS shortly, and i do have a budget for it.

It would be a stock rebuild although i may change the cams while im there, i would also change the lifters if i change cams but i would be resealing the entire thing, replacing the valves with the 39mm intakes and pulling the pistons to drill them, and replacing the rods with either the R2 rods or a higher end H beam rod.

I planned to spend no more then $7500 on the rebuild but can also see doing it for about $5,000 depending on what parts i use.

If you would like me to i can detail it out to the dollar, actually i may just do it anyway, its been awhile since i added it all up.

In short, it does not cost $15,000 for me to rebuild and GTS engine, let alone a GT or S4 engine, I know i have done it. Thats my only point which you dont seem to get, as if i made these numbers up.

Don't you guys have cars to go work on?:thumbup:

You need more 928's to rebuild! :icon107:

Here's a question for Ryan and blown87 - If your daily driver 928 had major failure would you rebuild it or buy a used engine that was known to be in good shape?
Even if you planned to rebuild the one you took out at a later date for personal use or resale, would you rather just switch out a 'good' used one to get back on the road or would that be a bad investment for you?

And, if so, do you think it would be a bad investment for someone who isn't capable of doing the labor and would have to otherwise pay the price you estimate for the rebuild?

Currently on the S4 that i have, if it failed, i would probably just part the car and part the good parts out of the engine.

On a GTS which i had some money into, i would try and fix the engine using the parts described before. If i ran into a blow up like Rob E. I would find some engine to start with as a core and use what i could from the expired engine. Wow there are so many variables here actually its tough to say i can think of 1000 differences to do one thing over the other.

The single biggest factor for me though is always the financial side. I do not get over my head on these cars. I will not spend money on a 928 if it does not add value to the car simple as that. If i determine that the cost of the rebuild does not match the value of the car i would have to find some other solution. However, ive said this before, but i am looking at 93 GTS's and it is a given, i dont care the mileage, wether its 30K or 100K i would shortly after purchase, pull the motor, address the shortcomings and reseal the entire thing and replace all questionable parts if not all parts that require servicing and updating and reinstall it into the car. I then take care of all issues in one go round and in the end save allot of money. And i do believe that does add value to these cars. But again, it makes no sense for me to try and take what i have now, being a DD run around 88 S4 with high miles and try and dump 12K into it fixing everything to try and take it to a standard that you could achieve with a nicer car to begin with.

Someone made me an offer on the car and said oh its going to cost $12,000 to do this and that and this and i replied simply, that this is never going to be a beauty queen. I see it for what it is, a 165mph car on a serious budget. You can fix thing, but you would be silly to try and turn what that car is into a show winner or something. You would just simply start with another car. But for those that dont have $20K to spend on an S4, but still love them, this is a great direction for you to go in.

and back to the original question again. When i bought my old GT, i picked it up at Devek. When i was there Susan informed me that she had a GT engine from a 90 that had just crashed for some amount of money. I had at the time decided that would be the best bet to just buy that engine and run the car with it. When i later found out the huge mileage difference i decided i would in fact restore the original engine which i did and i later sold the Devek engine once the original was replaced. So although the original engine sat for 18 months in parts or as one lump, i was still driving the car.

With a car that was special to me, i would always rebuild instead of bothering with trying to find a good used engine, because people do misrepresent what they are selling and this is the biggest reason i am so forward with EVERYTHING that is at fault with any car i have. Because i dont want someone coming back to me later wanting a credit because i lied about something. I dont do business that way and thats something ive learned from taking peoples word. Its why im also so adamant about point out that you can in fact rebuild these cars on a budget, i know cause i have. I wont even tell you what i had into the GT by the time i was done, but if you knew, many here would likely be shocked. I was just looking at the pics I took of the car prior to selling it and remembering what it looked like when i first bought it, It really was one huge transformation and was a great car!

Also to those that maybe scared by a rebuild and the learning curve. I dont claim to be any genius, but i do consider myself to be pretty sharp and if nothing more very logical in my decisions. But i had no prior experience with 928's or any Porsche prior to my purchase of the GT back in April 2006. Ive learned a bunch in that time with the 4 cars i own or have owned and each one has tought me different things but they are not that difficult. I do have a serious interest in engineering and always loved learning about how things work, so that has helped me, but if your of that same mindset then i cant see why nobody else couldnt do what ive done in the past.

However, there are those that dont know a screwdriver from a box end wrench, for those out there, i suggest buying something with a warranty and something newer. I am hesitant to sell cars or even suggest these cars to anyone that isnt handy with a wrench. There is only one person in my family and group of friends that i could ever suggest a 928 to and thats someone that also loves cars and understands them, but to most people, this is not the right car for them because if you dont know any better, you can really loose your ass on these things.

That same $19K would buy you a better 91 GT in very good condition, or a 91 S4 in excellent condition.

Look folks, spending lots of money on these cars will never, ever, be a good investment when you calculate the total costs of ownership. It is a fact and reality. That is not why most of us here keep putting money into these coin operated beasts. It is irrational but it is passionate.

I speak from a very high horse on this subject, because well, I can. I am dumping more money than I care to admit into a unique colored 91 S4. It is currently in for a total repaint at a SoCal Porsche dealership (cha-ching), after that its going to Doc Brown's for his special rub-and-tug (some call it stroking) cha-ching again, followed up with a full Champagne treatment. You can surmise the $$$ this will cost.

I understand there are many out there who will say that Dan is an idiot. You would be right from a financial perspective. But to me this is a very personal endeavor and in the end I will have something worth more to me than anyone else. No doubt others will look at my car and see it's intrinsic beauty and be pleased with that. For those that choose to deride me for my perceived waste of money "Dan, its only a car...". I imagine you sitting on your couch with little 16 year old Fifi the teacup poodle, family pet, no I offend, family member, that you spent $8k on last year treating her skin rash, hip displasia and tumor removal. To this I and many others would say "But (state your name) it's only a dog..."

So if you own a $10k 928 and think dropping $15K for a complete engine rebuild is too much or not a good idea, sell or part the car and get another one.

People like Ryan, god love em, are pragmatists and the world certainly needs them to keep things in perspective. They are realists and can become dispassionate in a heartbeat. Others of us are just a bit off as we dump money into our pets and our cars well beyond the return on investment.

All I can say is I collectively spent more money on my beloved Tasha (best damn yellow lab on earth) during her last two years here than I did on my first child through highschool. Foolish? Finanically you bet. Rowena, my 91 S4, is and will be no different.

Dan - dog and 928 lover.

Having spent quite some time doing blackbox testing of the 928 ISV, I can assure you that while, yes, the ISV control is proclaimed to be "closed-loop control" that it isn't any kind of closed-loop control a control systems engineer would create.

And I are one of those (in a past life.)

So, I would not expect any random ISV to function precisely as an actual 928 ISV. It might be worse. Hell, it might even be better in a non-stock 928. But, I doubt the same.

Further - and directed at the general audience, not you -

a couple of months ago I spent a long long time looking for the mythical cheap Bosch ISV with the right part number. I couldn't find it for less than 95% of what I can get it for from the usual suspects. Not Autobone. Not AdvancedAutoPharts. Not teh interweb. Nowhere.

Possibly I should have lied about my zip code as evidence suggests that some parts are priced by location. I'm not saying that the mythical beast doesn't exist just that I wasn't able to find it at the time.

Dan

I hear your sentiments loud and clear. I do however see that when i look at 928's i love them for the unloved cars they are frankly. They are so undervalued. But if i had $60K to spend on making the most unique 928, or even more then that, well i would just start with something different i guess. I currently have a bug up my ass to find the means to buy myself a nice 07 Aston Martin Vantage and then find a way to get one of the newer AJ-V8 5.0L short blocks into it to of course give it some more power. I am a few years from one of those though, and who know, maybe in those few years the price of the currently for sale V-12 Vantage will be within my budget and i can just plop down for one of those.

I love cars like few do, but i have to try and make sense of them, because i do get bored after a few years. I dont think i would ever find a single car that i would want to keep forever. I like to change it up. I may stick with 928's but not THE SAME 928. This is something ive realized so i try not to get in over my head to the point that it wouldnt make sense to part with said car. Which i think people do when theyve got 5x the cars value into it.

I bet you forgot some expenses from the spreadsheet that tracks the costs of your firstborn...

Mine is 3 years and 4 months old and perfectly healthy, yet I've already dropped twice my 928 project cost so far on her schooling alone. And that's not a lie or an exaggeration.

:) I should have clarified that statement to mean medical costs.

I hear where you are comming from on the wanting to change the car up... But for me, the 928 will always be it. Unless Porsche does a miracle with the 2 door version comming up...

My neighbor (older guy who likes Porsche) said yesterday as we were looking over my new 928 said if he won the lottery, he would spend $200,000 on a new Austin Martin. I said back to him that if the same happened to me, I would find the nicest GTS I could find, and have $150,000 left over for beer. I do believe I could be happy with a GTS for life....Bury me in it ok?

:cheers:

[QUOTE=RyanPerrella;6727578]Dan

I currently have a bug up my ass to find the means to buy myself a nice 07 Aston Martin Vantage and then find a way to get one of the newer AJ-V8 5.0L short blocks into it to of course give it some more power. QUOTE]

Aston Martin..... having trouble typing as saliva is drooling on the keyboard. I lust for those cars but this is where I am trying to be a bit pragmatic.... When I set on my quest for a great car I looked at many things besides a particular make/model. I looked also for a strong community of owners and, generally, ready supply of parts and online know how. Not interested in American cars per se so for me the decision first was for a low mileage 91 944 S2, then a 93 968 and finally here with the 91 S4. Though an Aston Martin still stimulates me like an older sister's hot best friend did in high school, there just isn't the same type of community as there is here. To me the 928, in the end, represents the very best performance super car value and community par none.

Ryan - good posts. I'd buy a car from you in a second if I were looking for one.

Wowzers. I have a gifted child and she is 7. I probably haven't spent $4,000 total on her for schooling. She's in an advanced program in the public schools and I guess sure, if you count my taxes I paid for the school it is more but that is going to be charged to me regardless.

The bottom line is shop around and find someone who makes you happy. Sounds kind of like a relationship, well it is with engine builders. I can't tell you how many times I've run into A-hole know it alls in racing that will build you a "fast" motor that doesn't last a season. These guys always blame you and never stand behind their work. I finally found someone I trust and is interested in hp gains rather than my wallet.