ckabee1

the inner portion of my front tires are wearing. Looked up the DIY alignment thread and ran across the video for setting toe.

A discussion followed regarding the influence on toe as a result of negative camber... since I am running negative camber as a result of Carl's after-market upper a-arms, should I shim the top of the level to make it level vertically to get the most accurate toe?

Here's the discussion:

AO

You shouldn't need to shim anything if your laser setup is parallel to the ground and crosses the center of the wheel.

The disccusion of camber affecting toe was to say that if you change your camber setting, you will (inadvertantly) be changing the toe as a result. Once you have your camber set (regardless of the setting) you should then set you toe.

Hope this helps.

ckabee1

Yes, it does help.

And, thank you for taking the time making the video.

mark kibort

you probably dont have enough toe .(toe'ed out too much) if you are wearing the inside edges

Mrmerlin

another factor is setting the ride height too low this make toe settings less consistent, as the tie rods are moved further away from their straight geometry, then any suspension movements will change the toe settings

ckabee1

Last year, I replaced the upper a-arms, tie rods, and lower balljoints. At that time, I reset ride-height to spec. Alignment was also completed within spec, except for camber. All of a sudden, toe is out.

I've looked and see nothing out of the ordinary, other than worn tires. Gradually, the steering wheel as become progressively more shakey.

I plan to use AO's toe video to see what I can do to help.

dr bob

Chris--

Just make sure that you do all your camber (and caster if you need to) changes before you do the toe adjustment. If you don't have turn plates or slip plates, you'll do a lot of rolling of the car fore and aft between adjustments to let the car 'relax' on the tires.

It also cannot be stressed enough that the car needs to be settled completely when you do any adjustments. That's 75 miles of driving if you have had the car raised for any reason.

As soon as you get your alignment where you want it, immediately measure and record your ride heights. The cars do settle over time due to spring sag, but also after an adjustment of height whwre you unload the springs. So settle the car after your height adjustments, align, record height. You'll add "ride height check and adjust" to your annual do-list. Maintain the same height and it's likely that your alignment settings will stay consistent.

ckabee1

hey Dr Bob, thanks for the reply.

I'm not going to touch camber and caster. Mainly, b/c I just can't seem to wrap my brain around how to do it, and the shop last year did a good job. Carl's aftermarket upper a-arms are evidently a different geometry than stock, so he says negative camber is likely. So I probably will not be able to get it any better. Ride heigth is where I want it, too.

All I want to do is fix the toe and figure out why it is out of spec now, when the proper procedure was followed last year and it was in spec then. I have noticed that the steering wheel is shakey and the front end makes noises going over bumps.

Maybe something has come loose?

mark kibort

let the car totally settle. Put a straight edge on the front and rear of the wheel and make a mark on the ground. do the same on the front and rear side of the other wheel. NOW, measure the distance between the front marks and the rear marks. (it will be 70" + something) if you have 1/8" shorter distance on the front marks vs the rear of the wheel marks, you are good! if it is 0 or 1/8 or 3/8" diff, you will chew up the inside of the tires.

Dr Bob is right, settling is the MOST important factor here. the car settles and changes the toe to OUT.

mk

Mrmerlin

you should check the upper control arms for smooth operation someone else had a problem with a binding upper joint on the remanufactured arms

mark kibort

Thats not exactly true. sure, during compression, during a turn, the bump steer will make the toe different between the two tires, usually scrubbing the outside tires. swaybars help prevent this with he sacrafice of jacking the car down in doing so. However, once you set the aligment, even with tie rods at near 45 degree angles, the only problem you will have is that there would be more toe out under hard straigth line braking. Not really a wear issue in most cases. Heck, Im living proof of this, by running 1000s of miles on the street with soft compound tires. I never toss a tire out for uneven wear. when then are done, they are done accross the tire. I noticed that I was getting inside tire wear and verified that I was 1/4" toed out. after changing it to 1/8" toed in , the problem went away. the reason for my toe out was continously lowering the car and spring sag. (probably .5" of ride hight over 7 years)

mk

ckabee1

What's the best way to do this?

I feel confident I allowed the suspension to settle prior to the alignment last year. But, something is wrong.

I am having to go out of town, so it will be this weekend before I can explore all these great recommendations.

Is there more info on the longevity of the upper a-arms?

AO

If I had to check the operation of the Upper A-arm, I would pull the caliper and the rotors off, then release the 4 bolts that hold the lower control arm to the body. and finally the bolt that holds in the shock to the lower control arm.

This will allow you to use a pry-bar or similar lever to rotate the upper A-arm up and down.

Alternatively, you could try to release the upper ball joint from the knuckle. I thinky ou may still need to realse the shock from the lower control arm. However, I think you risk the danger of cutting the boot on the ball-joint with this method.

mark kibort

just check the distance of the front tires to one another as I mentioned and you will know. If they are binding, and that is unlikely, but they are sticky as they are rubber bushings, eventually the car will settle. it settles enough to change the toe and fake you out that you have had a "good " alignment.

get back to us on the numbers. You can check camber this way too. put a straight edge bubble level on the rim. more than .5" and you have too much camber for a street machine. (about a finger thickness)

mk

jcorenman

Chris,

Mark is right, a quick toe-in check with a stick and a tape measure is the place to start.

But how much negative camber are we talking about here?

Camber is always negative, the factory spec is 30' (1/2 deg) negative +/- 10', many (most?) folks push the high end (40-45' ??) and racers may go twice that or more, depending on what the tires want. For street use I think you want to be in the 30-45' range, if mine were more -45' then I would want to track it down and fix it.