Bill Ball

Right, that's how this is supposed to work too. Pin 38 seems to be the power source that should be controlled by the door pins. The door pins work correctly. Reading over the wire diagrams some more indicates that the door pin signal comes into the controller via pin 15. It may be a break in the wire to pin 15 from the door pins. Note that I have a brand new controller, and both the old and new one do the same thing, so I'm not blaming the controller. More tomorrow morning.

no doubt

If your controller is working...and if your windows/sunroof work while the ignition power is on...then wouldn't that mean that a signal to the controller has failed (e.g. wire break)...such as an open/door signal when the ignition is off?

Perhaps the wire that you cut was a signal wire??

Alan

Up to '89 it was controlled by the window regulator relay on CE and 90+ by the controller under the seat.

In both cases ROW cars work differently and turn off only after you open & then close a door - and will work whenever a door is open. This utilizes a diferent relay <'90 and can be configured with a jumper on 90+. US DOT regulations prohibit the entirely logical windows active whenever a door is open mode - but since I think the DOT are a bunch of backwards idiots - my car is configured to do this (and I love it). This ROW mode on the later controller also get you express up functionality (but on the drivers door only - and only in normal run mode - not in door overide).

Alan

no doubt

That's a pretty slick tip. So swapping to a RestofWorld window regulator relay would give pre-1990 928's door-open window functionality?

Heck, I've already had that relay apart to repair it once (https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/456517-one-way-to-repair-an-88-928-s-window-relay.html). Would love to see the difference in the two.

Bill Ball

Alan, do you have any further advice based on what I found in post 29? I'm not sure my simple interpretation makes good sense. Why is power going from 38 to 33? Even if door pin ground controls it via pin 15, won't the window just go down once power appears at 38?

Bill Ball

I checked pin 15 on the harness plug, not plugged into the controller. This is a BR/WH wire from the door pin. What I see is 334 Ohms with the door open, 0 Ohms closed. No change in continuity. Also, I see about 50 miliV with the door open. When I close the door, pin 15 GRADUALLY rises to 12V over 30 seconds then stays there. Is that proper?

I noted one anomaly - when I close the door, the interior lights do not go out even after the 20 second or so delay! They do go out if I lock the door. I swapped the interior light relay from my car and it made no difference. The lights stay on in the 90 even with NO relay. So, there must be a short in the interior lights circuit, although locking the doors overrides it. I feel like I'm getting closer, since now it's clear the interior light circuit is misbehaving and probably has a short, but I'm not sure where to go from here.

Alan

Bill the door pin switch input should be ~infinite ohms to ground when door closed & ~0 ohms when door open - seems you have an issue with it (also from the int light operation).

The controller gets ignition and battery feed inputs and uses the door pin input as a trigger only (not a supply).

Bill - check - do you have the jumper between pin 32 and 34 plugged together?

This is the config connection for the no sunroof mode and shoud be unplugged for a sunroof equipped car. If this is plugged in the sunroof and drivers motor are linked - it only works if there is no sunroof motor (it eliminates the sequential timeout delay for the sunroof in cars without - since it always goes first in auto-close mode).

I think Pin 38 is mainly related to the configuration for which is the drivers door... this is only important in an ROW configuration. Not sure on this.

I think you are right about the motor voltages. My own notes were unclear on what I found for the controller version - but from what you have found it seems the motor connections in this case are both at ground on both connections at rest. Usually these drive circuits have both motor pins fed each from a different relay with the common pin (30) driving the relay motor and the 87a to ground & the 87 to +12. Either relay singly operating will cause the motor to drive in one or other direction - both switching causes no movement (e.g. on the other motors given the one common connection to all 3 motors).

So the thing to check is voltage and also in the case of 0v - is it actually 0 ohms to ground (e.g. not just not powered - but specifically grounded).

Alan

the flyin' scotsman

How is the window operation affected with the removal of the interior light relay and fuse?

Alan

Bill - from my notes (from a long time ago)

Pin Function

13 Sunroof Switch In
14 Drivers Switch In
15 Interior Lights Pin Switch
16 Green Wire to all Switches
17 Black Wire to all Switches
21 Passenger Switch In
22 Config In only USA = plug to Pin 17 (ROW open)
26 Lock In (for all close mode)
31 Ground
32 Sunroof Motor Drive
33 Passenger Motor Drive
34 Drivers Motor Drive (note for non-sunroof plug 32 & 34)
35 Common Motor Drive Connection
36 Ignition Power In
37 Battery Power In
38 Passenger Motor Drive (config for LHD/RHD non-express?)

Alan

In theory not at all - its connected to the pin switch inputs of the relay - however - worth testing since there seem to be issues there now...

Alan

Mrmerlin

bill could one of the interior lights have gotten mis wired, might be worth a look

the flyin' scotsman

Perhaps the wires on the passenger door? or possibly switched; light to window motor?

This is a good one.

Bill Ball

Thanks for all the input.

Yes, I'm going to check over all the light socket wiring.

Note that the interior lights were converted to LED. One of them was flashing. I pulled it out and then the lights started to operate correctly (go out about 20 secs after the doors are closed). BUT I still see 12V gradually appear at pin 15 of the window controller harness (the door pin feed) as the light relay timer counts down to lights out. And pin 38 still has 12V. BUT when I connect pin 38 to pin 33 again, the window no longer goes down spontaneously and seems to operate correctly EXCEPT that I have no window control if the ignition is turned off and teh doors are still closed after running the engine.

The jumper between 32 and 34 is open as it should be for a sunroof car.

This thing is a bitch. It appears there sure is something amiss in the door pin/interior light circuit even though it's almost behaving correctly now. [LATE EDIT: THIS WAS A RED HERRING].

Mrmerlin

what happens if you put all of the correct lights back in the car, since this system has been re rigged there might be a possibility that the wires are now routing elex in different directions

Bill Ball

Well, the flashing LED was a red herring. I put it back in, and the system still operates close to normal. BUT now, I'm getting 12V at pin 15 of the window controller harness AS SOON as the door pin is pushed. No longer does it gradually build up to 12 as the interior relay timer counts down.

This thing is freaky. I'm pulling the passenger door pin to see if it's got 12V. How could it?

I looked at all of the interior lights. They appear to be wired OK.

Oh, I just noticed all the door pin wires converge at the CE panel connector L12.

L12 has 12V and this is whether the interior light relay is plugged in or not. Both door pins show 12V. If I pull connector L from the CE panel, the door pins still show 12V and the plug L12 (not the panel side) still has 12V So, the door pin wires are getting battery power from somewhere.