Jon B.

Yeah, note the Join date and the number of posts. I lurk everywhere! I'm usually on LS1Tech and Corvette Forum now though! Gotta get back in a 928!

I'm honored to be your top detailing dude! I'm working on getting down there after Flight School. The Killeen area isn't too far of a drive for a C5 FRC or a 928!

My pleasure to help with everything, and like the others on this site, your collection is the tops! I'm glad to have helped with your Concours wins!

Jon

pcar928fan

I'm all verclempt now... sniff, sniff...

The drive from Killeen will be even faster in an Apache my man!

Jon B.

You'd think so, but Helicopters aren't all that fast. Cruising speed for an Apache is only around 165-180mph. Blackhawks are about the same. But yeah, not gonna be beat on a straight shot! That sure would stir up the neighborhood! Wonder what ya'lls tower would think with me requesting to land?

pcar928fan

We have choppers in and out of here on a regular basis...we actually have one that lives here even! Apache, well, that might be another story, but I suspect EVERYONE (pilots as well as non) would be out to see what the heck was happening though! It would be a HOOT!

hopwood

I think I'm with the late Alan Clark on this one. Cars were made to be driven, not polished in an aircraft hanger. He once wrote that any winner of the "ridiculous" (in his eyes) Pebble Beach concours should be made to complete 5 laps of the circuit, at full chat. Only if nothing fell off could they keep the prize.

Not that I don't enjoy polishing cars - I love it! http://zhian.com/photos/928_S2_detail/ shows some of my recent doings. But why get upset about the rules of a competition? Kermit is unique, simply because it hasn't been used. Is that something that we should be organising competitions around? Kermit would simply win every time.

I think it's spot on that the preservation class rewards cars that look great despite being used, and used hard.

Just my $0.02, interesting debate

Joel
79 5spd - just done castle combe / nurbrugring trip

Marine Blue

Bottom line is that car clubs cater to the majority rather than the minority. MBCA (Mercedes Club) doesn't even allow cars yougner than 20 years old in a concours. They have three classes, Full Concours (Ext/Int/Eng/Undercarriage), Top Only (Ext/Int/Eng) and Wash and shine which is similar to PCA.

I have a huge appreciate for a properly maintained, prepped concours car, it's not easy and it's a work of art IMHO.

Joel,

I think it's important to remember that many who compete in concours are maintaining their cars mechanically to the same level as they do cosmetically. It's hard to keep an engine bay clean (especially if you drive) if you have leaks all over the place. Mechanical hinges are cleaned thoroughly and then lubed, this has to be done frequently as black colored grease will take off points.

Chuck Z

You're missing the point. I absolutely think there is a place for cars that are driven and used extensively. But, because of the way the rules are currently written in the Preservation group it really discourages cars like Kermit from even showing up. Not just 928s but every other model in Porsches line up that is a mint original with low miles. What is the future of this type event if none of these type cars come out? Not good would be my guess. A guy came up to me on Sunday after he looked at all the 928s lined up and said, "you didn't win did you?" I thought, kind of a bold thing to say but I just said no, the car next to me took 1st place as I pointed to the winner. We started talking and he told me about his mint original 914/6 with 5,000 original miles and his same experience at the Hershey Parade a few years ago. I asked him if he brought the car and he laughed as he walked away........ Telling don't you think? People may never again get a chance to see this guys mint original 914/6 and I think that is a shame. When you go to a Concours d'Elegance wouldn't you expect and want to see cars like this 914/6? As 928 enthusiasts wouldn't it have been great to see Bob Ingram's 312 mile 1989 GT? Or any of his other ultra low mile Porsches? Not a single one was there to participate in the Concours d'Elegance and my guess is b/c of the rules? That too is a shame! This event is losing credibility in my eyes.

[edit] Correction, I think Bob did have one of his 356s there. In the past he has brought a couple tractor trailer loads to Parade. He lives in NC and only brought a couple? Most of those were in the historic display.

RKD in OKC

That's it!!! Add a Historic Class.

Chuck Z

I'm not sure what the solution should be. Perhaps a further breakdown of the Preservation Group like where Preperation has a "full" and a "touring" group maybe Preservation gets "full" and "street" categories?. Right now the Preservation Group is a "hands off" judging unlike any other Group at the event. The judges spent about 2 minutes looking over my car (this particular judging group did NOT have a time keeper like the others). I will say that even the judges prior to the start of judging were ALL looking over my car without a glance at the others in the group........... All other groups i.e., Preperation, Restoration and Performace are judged in what I would call typical concours fashion. Maybe the Preservation group participants in a "full" class should have the option of having their car judged using the same criteria/style as the other groups to more accurately determine an overall winner? This would also allow cars in the Preservation Group to compete for overall honors which at present they cannot.

hopwood

So the only reason you bring your car out is to win prizes in some competition? What happened to just getting it out for the hell of it? I take my 928s to the opening of an envelope (UK expression) if it means meeting and chatting to like-minded owners. Sometimes they are scruffy as hell, sometimes they are minted up and polished. Depends on what mood I'm in and how much time I have.

I just can't understand the mindset of the 914/6 guy - "I love Porsches, this is a huge Porsche event, but I'm not bringing my favourite car because it won't win a prize" LOL. Maybe if these events "die out" people like him will sell their cars because there aren't any prizes to win... and then I can get my hands on them and start campaigning them in some historic races and rallies :-)

Just genuinely curious as to the mindset... it takes all sorts and life would be very boring if we were all the same as my mum always says.

Joel
79 928 5spd
87 S4 LSD 5spd - for sale

atb

Sounds to me that if the concern in allowing a Concours class catered to undriven well maintained cars competing for the overall will somehow sweep the competition, we've got a problem with the judges, and the cars and their owners shouldn't be penalized to the point where there isn't even a class for them.
If the judging for the overall is focused toward cars that are driven, I would think that owners of undriven cars may still be willing to compete if they at least have a class to compete in.

Chuck Z

Joel, its a competitive event not a social get together at a pub! Of course people go to win. There are events at Parade for guys with your "mindset" this obviously isn't the one.

Chuck Z

Not necessarily a class/group just for low mileage or undriven cars but one perhaps where the owner has a choice to compete for overall honors in they choose. The same opportunity should be given to all cars in that class even higher mileage cars. At present, a low mileage car is automatically out and none of the cars in Preservation really get judged nor are they eligible for overall honors.

pcar928fan

Joel,

There is to much risk taking out an ultra low miles car on a regular basis to shows if there is no chance of winning...everyone likes competition and likes a shot. Clearly the guys with the best cars are leaving them at home for whatever reason. Maybe the 914/6 guy has one or two other Porsche's that might have had a SHOT since they get driven and are doubtless also spotless and he brought one of those. I don't know, I am just speculating, but if you know your perfect car CAN'T win, then you are probably going to bring a different car.

What would the spectators like to see??? Well, as a fan, I want to see the "new" cars that are PERFECT in every way? I have drivers that are nice, even show winners in most cases, but they are NOT perfect for sure! I want to see Bob's cars, Kermit, the 914/6 and I want the best one of those to take one of several (in my eyes that is how it should be anyway) BIG prizes home!

Yea, the cars were meant to be used and I suspect most all of the Councours guys have another very nice car that gets used but is still in VERY NICE condition, they just choose to "PRESERVE" a Porsche! They should have a class for that specifically! They used to do it that way!

YMMV!

hopwood

I hear you guys, good debate.

On another note, Chuck have you had the ride height checked recently on Kermit? Looks high to me at the front. Or maybe my cars are all too low - one certainly is, courtesy of a 928 Motorsports Koni setup which rocks!

joel