K&N Air Filters are BLACK
08-11-2001, 01:01 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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K&N Air Filters are BLACK
Hi Sharks:
Somewhere I saw a discussion thread about the orange filter edge. The K&N air filter that I bought has all black rubber, and is supposed to increase performance with greater air flow. After a year or so you must use their fluid to maintain the filter. You can order them from any of the big three.
I am off to the beach for a week. So, I won't reply to anything for a while.
Somewhere I saw a discussion thread about the orange filter edge. The K&N air filter that I bought has all black rubber, and is supposed to increase performance with greater air flow. After a year or so you must use their fluid to maintain the filter. You can order them from any of the big three.
I am off to the beach for a week. So, I won't reply to anything for a while.
08-11-2001, 02:01 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
If there is any gain with the K&N filter, I can not tell. I do KNOW that plenty of crap gets by it, so I have to wonder why they can call it a "filter". 
The only time I use mine is when I am about to get on the track. YMMV.
The only time I use mine is when I am about to get on the track. YMMV.
08-11-2001, 02:38 PM
#3
Dittos to Ed's comment. Nvere used one but did a lot of checking before paying the extra $$$ for one. All the comments were to the extent that there was really no noticeavble performance improvement and more dirt got through. Best suited for the track. Even Devek, when I asked, indicated that the "benefit" of the filter was that it could be used over and over. IMO, think for "normal" driving I would stick with the "nomal" filter. 
08-11-2001, 05:11 PM
#4
Ed & Pat,
This is not intended to start yet
another pissing match, BUT...
Ed, I read your initial bug parts post on the K&N and while I honestly believe in your 'bug find'- anything is possible - I have not run into anything like it.
I used to work on 3/4 million dollar GE T 700 series engines and was trained to be fastidous on the air import system which among other things included a series of physical filters and centrifical force to eliminate/postpone the expenditure of our tax dollars for another trashed engine.
When I swapped the stock filter for the K&N
I cleaned the filter retainer/cover and bungee'd it out of the way, cleaned an awful lot of grime and bug parts off of the lip and filter lip seating area around the air box. And while my engine compartment might not be detailed it is pretty clean. Still, I used 50 PSI of regulated air to blow away anything I may have missed. Then I pulled the stock filter. The filter box had a very light coating of some type of oil which had collected, over time, A LOT OF GRIT. I then blocked the throat with a clean white T shirt rag and thoroughly cleaned out the box, pulled the T shirt rag and inspected the throat, swabbed what I could reach with alcohol, and lightly sprayed the box with WD-40 -it caught grit before, right!- I then
applied the sealing grease to the K&N filter lip and started to seat the filter. First, one last look in the box... Hmmm ... where did that come from? Some small bits of debris had landed in the box in a period of time measured in seconds , from the hood/a breeze/the bottom of the new K&N who knows but there it was. I pulled the K&N three times since then due to your post and my misfortune of being in the land of huge dust devils - a daily event -. If anything got by the filter it went straight down the intake and you could count the few grains of grit stuck to the WD-40 on both hands -may have slipped by when I pulled the filter for inspection-. This is anecdotal but no more so than your post. I'm lazy and have not called or E-mailed K&N regarding filter problems or official power increase claims... one of these days I'm gonna...... .
As I said before "seat of the pants impression is that I am accelerating faster
from the low end ", and I sure hope no one will argue the point that the ability of an intake system to pass MORE AIR, FASTER than a stock system IS A GOOD THING.
Perhaps we need a wider base of folks to gather enough data to make a claim one way or another. I would be willing to poll all of the Rennlist forums if you would handle the 928 oc guys. At some point gross amounts of data cease being anecdotal and start carrying some weight. Maybe you could connect with someone doing Dyno work and do a before and after on a couple of chassis' in addition to the 928's. I'm not saying I'm right but then I didn't post a negative on what seems to be an O.K. product. Want to work on this with me to validate or invalidate the K&N's for everyday street use?
John S, 82' Weissach, Auto. 'Pattycakes'
Keep em' rolling
This is not intended to start yet
another pissing match, BUT...
Ed, I read your initial bug parts post on the K&N and while I honestly believe in your 'bug find'- anything is possible - I have not run into anything like it.
I used to work on 3/4 million dollar GE T 700 series engines and was trained to be fastidous on the air import system which among other things included a series of physical filters and centrifical force to eliminate/postpone the expenditure of our tax dollars for another trashed engine.
When I swapped the stock filter for the K&N
I cleaned the filter retainer/cover and bungee'd it out of the way, cleaned an awful lot of grime and bug parts off of the lip and filter lip seating area around the air box. And while my engine compartment might not be detailed it is pretty clean. Still, I used 50 PSI of regulated air to blow away anything I may have missed. Then I pulled the stock filter. The filter box had a very light coating of some type of oil which had collected, over time, A LOT OF GRIT. I then blocked the throat with a clean white T shirt rag and thoroughly cleaned out the box, pulled the T shirt rag and inspected the throat, swabbed what I could reach with alcohol, and lightly sprayed the box with WD-40 -it caught grit before, right!- I then
applied the sealing grease to the K&N filter lip and started to seat the filter. First, one last look in the box... Hmmm ... where did that come from? Some small bits of debris had landed in the box in a period of time measured in seconds , from the hood/a breeze/the bottom of the new K&N who knows but there it was. I pulled the K&N three times since then due to your post and my misfortune of being in the land of huge dust devils - a daily event -. If anything got by the filter it went straight down the intake and you could count the few grains of grit stuck to the WD-40 on both hands -may have slipped by when I pulled the filter for inspection-. This is anecdotal but no more so than your post. I'm lazy and have not called or E-mailed K&N regarding filter problems or official power increase claims... one of these days I'm gonna...... .
As I said before "seat of the pants impression is that I am accelerating faster
from the low end ", and I sure hope no one will argue the point that the ability of an intake system to pass MORE AIR, FASTER than a stock system IS A GOOD THING.
Perhaps we need a wider base of folks to gather enough data to make a claim one way or another. I would be willing to poll all of the Rennlist forums if you would handle the 928 oc guys. At some point gross amounts of data cease being anecdotal and start carrying some weight. Maybe you could connect with someone doing Dyno work and do a before and after on a couple of chassis' in addition to the 928's. I'm not saying I'm right but then I didn't post a negative on what seems to be an O.K. product. Want to work on this with me to validate or invalidate the K&N's for everyday street use?
John S, 82' Weissach, Auto. 'Pattycakes'
Keep em' rolling
08-11-2001, 05:38 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Dear John:
I cannot speak for anyone else. I only KNOW what I know. When I use the OEM filter, I have not found any accumulation on the MAF screen. When I use the K&N filter, bugs' wings, legs and other bits can be found.
I base my limited sampling on personal experience and the statements made to me by several 928 owners. As always, YMMV.
I cannot speak for anyone else. I only KNOW what I know. When I use the OEM filter, I have not found any accumulation on the MAF screen. When I use the K&N filter, bugs' wings, legs and other bits can be found.
I base my limited sampling on personal experience and the statements made to me by several 928 owners. As always, YMMV.
08-11-2001, 10:25 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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FWIW
I have used K&N on my last 6 cars, including a former daily driver MBZ 500 SEL. It had 230K on it when I sold it, having the same K&N for 150K of those miles. It passed quite nicely on a compression and leakdown test before I sold it.
K&N worked for me in the dust and dirt of the NorCal central valley just fine. It has worked for me on those cars and a dozen motorcycles - and the motorcycles are as much off road as on.
I don't doubt your experience Ed. It just seems to me that there HAS to be a cause that bugs are getting BY your filter. I would be willing to wager that no matter how well your 928 breathes, it can't suck a moth through filter material. If, in fact, it could suck it through the material, what would come out on the other side would be, ummm, less than recognizable as a whole bug.
If bugs are getting by, perhaps the filter is not seated properly due a manufacturing defect. I have only heard of it a coupla times, but I have heard of it.
I have always done the filter as part of other minor mods, so have never done a dyno run on just that product. I can say that when you do a K&N on a motorcycle, you often have to rejet the carb(s) as it flows more air.
And no, I don't work for them. Nor does anyone I know.
Just my 2% of a Euro...
Greg
84S, swallowing a GTS piece by piece
I have used K&N on my last 6 cars, including a former daily driver MBZ 500 SEL. It had 230K on it when I sold it, having the same K&N for 150K of those miles. It passed quite nicely on a compression and leakdown test before I sold it.
K&N worked for me in the dust and dirt of the NorCal central valley just fine. It has worked for me on those cars and a dozen motorcycles - and the motorcycles are as much off road as on.
I don't doubt your experience Ed. It just seems to me that there HAS to be a cause that bugs are getting BY your filter. I would be willing to wager that no matter how well your 928 breathes, it can't suck a moth through filter material. If, in fact, it could suck it through the material, what would come out on the other side would be, ummm, less than recognizable as a whole bug.
If bugs are getting by, perhaps the filter is not seated properly due a manufacturing defect. I have only heard of it a coupla times, but I have heard of it.
I have always done the filter as part of other minor mods, so have never done a dyno run on just that product. I can say that when you do a K&N on a motorcycle, you often have to rejet the carb(s) as it flows more air.
And no, I don't work for them. Nor does anyone I know.
Just my 2% of a Euro...
Greg
84S, swallowing a GTS piece by piece
08-11-2001, 11:57 PM
#7
John, certainly no offense taken here. My "adversion" to switching to a K&N is primarily based upon the Devek comment as well as those with obviously a lot of experience and expertise with these cars like Ed. As an admitted novice regarding sharks at the moment, there is also some amount of paranoia involved. Anyway, Devek made the comment referenced in my last post while at the same time advising me that they stocked them if I wanted to purchase one. I was impressed with the fact that they could have easily sold one to me (vs the less expensive OEM I got) just by saying how "great" the filter was. I assumed that since they deal with a LOT of 928s they would have an opinion worth noting. Again, they said nothing badabout the filter, just not the hype I read in a catalogue.
Having said that, I did do a web search to get some reviews on the K&N filter. Everything I found was positive. BTW, these were not reviews at the K&N website. Further, I seem to recall that there were reports of some increase in power and gas mileage. While I remain to a large point a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" owner, I must say that I am tempted to give the filter a try next time around. My big "if" will just be "if" I don't come across something that indicates it could do my shark more harm than good. A little paranoia can be a healthy thing!
Having said that, I did do a web search to get some reviews on the K&N filter. Everything I found was positive. BTW, these were not reviews at the K&N website. Further, I seem to recall that there were reports of some increase in power and gas mileage.
While I remain to a large point a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" owner, I must say that I am tempted to give the filter a try next time around. My big "if" will just be "if" I don't come across something that indicates it could do my shark more harm than good. A little paranoia can be a healthy thing!
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08-12-2001, 01:36 AM
#8
7th Gear
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This is not the only group where the benefits / drawbacks of the K&N have been disussed.
My less exciting ride is a Ford Diesel pickup. There is a very active newsgroup supporting these vehicles as well. In these engines, the CDR valve ensures that the intake has an oily film present at all times. Many (not all) K&N users have found an oily, gritty mess inside their intakes. Some even found pitting on the turbo compressors. All of the owners that experiencing these problem swear that they followed proper installation and maintenance of the filters. They insist that the K&Ns will pass small particles. I would assume that in the case of our cars, the motor would simply ingest any particles that would pass through the filter, suspended in the airflow.
I am running an Amsoil foam-wetted filter on my Ford, which flows as well as the K&N and I have not heard any problems regarding its filtering ability. The cost of replacing a Navistar 7.3l makes Porsche parts seem reasonable!!(Back to the little paranoia thing) They actually show a listing for the 928, I will post any info I get back from them.
Good luck with you decision!!!
My less exciting ride is a Ford Diesel pickup. There is a very active newsgroup supporting these vehicles as well. In these engines, the CDR valve ensures that the intake has an oily film present at all times. Many (not all) K&N users have found an oily, gritty mess inside their intakes. Some even found pitting on the turbo compressors. All of the owners that experiencing these problem swear that they followed proper installation and maintenance of the filters. They insist that the K&Ns will pass small particles. I would assume that in the case of our cars, the motor would simply ingest any particles that would pass through the filter, suspended in the airflow.
I am running an Amsoil foam-wetted filter on my Ford, which flows as well as the K&N and I have not heard any problems regarding its filtering ability. The cost of replacing a Navistar 7.3l makes Porsche parts seem reasonable!!(Back to the little paranoia thing) They actually show a listing for the 928, I will post any info I get back from them.
Good luck with you decision!!!
08-12-2001, 07:04 AM
#10
Ed, Pat, gbyron, Vince,& Kaz,
No hard feelings on any and all of the K&N
posts - hell, it is a forum! -
Again, the more info the better! As a Group ,read that, 'consumers',our input to producers does have an effect. In this case maybe K&N will take a hard look at its bread and butter product.
My experience is similar to GBYRON's on one hand i.e., street bikes from 350 Honda's to Suzuki 1150-E's, Dirt bikes from a 1967 305cc
CL Scramblerwith both Type 1 and Type 2 engines and the run of cars leading from a 65 BIG 6 Futura -little sucker was FAST- through Mopars with 392&413- wish I still had one- to Camaro's and now the sHARk, and
lest I forget my venerable 87 F-150 Lariat Extended Cab. All of which wore a K&N at one time or another.
After reading Vince's post I got to thinking that oil film in the airbox showed-up on the Mopars, Camaro's and the big cc bikes. So, air passing through the filter is obviously - in some cases - causing the filter oil to migrate. Which brings to mind, light oil on warm/hot engine parts could/should gum-up after a while. Ach du lieber, Mein Gott!
Hmmmm... sticking idle - flapper - valve?
And Geez, Vince do you buy your oil in Barrel lots? Those big Fords must drink AT LEAST 13-17 quarts! In any case it would explain the oil film in the air box.
Vince/Ed/Kaz I don't disbelieve the debris posts it just hasn't happened to me, so I'm wondering is this a design flaw/Quality Control problem/air box fit or distortion problem and for the record I will discount any installation foul-ups -you would have to be pretty dull to mess up here.
Again, I'm not promoting the product even though I use it. But, I will gather as many posts as possible and forward them to the manufacturer, particularly since the posts are already leaning -by number- toward the PROBLEM side. I like the better air flow but like you guy's paranoia as to the wear and tear on the engine takes precident.
Keep em' rolling.
John S. 82' Weissach, Auto. 'Pattycakes'
No hard feelings on any and all of the K&N
posts - hell, it is a forum! -
Again, the more info the better! As a Group ,read that, 'consumers',our input to producers does have an effect. In this case maybe K&N will take a hard look at its bread and butter product.
My experience is similar to GBYRON's on one hand i.e., street bikes from 350 Honda's to Suzuki 1150-E's, Dirt bikes from a 1967 305cc
CL Scramblerwith both Type 1 and Type 2 engines and the run of cars leading from a 65 BIG 6 Futura -little sucker was FAST- through Mopars with 392&413- wish I still had one- to Camaro's and now the sHARk, and
lest I forget my venerable 87 F-150 Lariat Extended Cab. All of which wore a K&N at one time or another.
After reading Vince's post I got to thinking that oil film in the airbox showed-up on the Mopars, Camaro's and the big cc bikes. So, air passing through the filter is obviously - in some cases - causing the filter oil to migrate. Which brings to mind, light oil on warm/hot engine parts could/should gum-up after a while. Ach du lieber, Mein Gott!
Hmmmm... sticking idle - flapper - valve?
And Geez, Vince do you buy your oil in Barrel lots? Those big Fords must drink AT LEAST 13-17 quarts! In any case it would explain the oil film in the air box.
Vince/Ed/Kaz I don't disbelieve the debris posts it just hasn't happened to me, so I'm wondering is this a design flaw/Quality Control problem/air box fit or distortion problem and for the record I will discount any installation foul-ups -you would have to be pretty dull to mess up here.
Again, I'm not promoting the product even though I use it. But, I will gather as many posts as possible and forward them to the manufacturer, particularly since the posts are already leaning -by number- toward the PROBLEM side. I like the better air flow but like you guy's paranoia as to the wear and tear on the engine takes precident.
Keep em' rolling.
John S. 82' Weissach, Auto. 'Pattycakes'
08-12-2001, 09:59 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
I'm not worried about the occasional bug wing or leg that gets past the K&N filter and MAF screen. I'm concerned that something smaller, but harder (and potentially very damaging) can get past. For example: sand grains passing through might score the cylinder walls. YMMV.
YMMV.
08-12-2001, 11:19 PM
#12
7th Gear
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John,
The lil' 7.3l takes 3 gallons of oil per change (which is recommended every 3-5k). I don't use the truck too often, so I haven't gone the 50 gal drum route yet. I bought the beast because when I need a truck, I need a real truck!
In a diesel, the CR is around 23:1. They will have blow-by. Also, there is no vacuum due to a lack of throttle plates. Hence, the CDR valve takes the place of a PCV valve and allows excess crank pressure to blow back into the intake to be burned. Unlike Detroits, which spew this onto the ground from the many protruding drain hoses, the Navistar returns this oil mist and vapors back into the intake. This results in an oily film, perfect to collect any foreign dust or dirt, in the intake. I believe that is why these engines show the media the K&N filters pass better than others.
I am not sure that this is a design flaw. I think K&N knows that their filters allow more particles to pass and that this is an acceptable trade-off for the airflow gains. I am not sure that minute particles will really cause internal damage, I am just unwilling to test that theory.
And no hard feelings on any posts, we are all just sharing opinions. Opinions are like..., everyone has one!
Vince
The lil' 7.3l takes 3 gallons of oil per change (which is recommended every 3-5k). I don't use the truck too often, so I haven't gone the 50 gal drum route yet. I bought the beast because when I need a truck, I need a real truck!
In a diesel, the CR is around 23:1. They will have blow-by. Also, there is no vacuum due to a lack of throttle plates. Hence, the CDR valve takes the place of a PCV valve and allows excess crank pressure to blow back into the intake to be burned. Unlike Detroits, which spew this onto the ground from the many protruding drain hoses, the Navistar returns this oil mist and vapors back into the intake. This results in an oily film, perfect to collect any foreign dust or dirt, in the intake. I believe that is why these engines show the media the K&N filters pass better than others.
I am not sure that this is a design flaw. I think K&N knows that their filters allow more particles to pass and that this is an acceptable trade-off for the airflow gains. I am not sure that minute particles will really cause internal damage, I am just unwilling to test that theory.
And no hard feelings on any posts, we are all just sharing opinions. Opinions are like..., everyone has one!
Vince
