928 thread at Corvette forum off topic
 

Be nice guys.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1979965

Seem like nice guys, just sadly, almost insanely mis-informed. The 928 of all its evolutions and years outperformed the Vette. Until 1997 that is. But if they had continued building the 928, it would have still kept it's crown. That being said, I will walk all over any stock z06 as long as its for the right $$$. Blown87, feel free to cross post that over there, as I am not a member.
Kevin

Seems like a pretty split group, some have respect for us, some are just not educated in 928s and want to spew forth their petty ill-informed knowledge from hearsay.

I show up every now and then over there, so far the thread is going far better than I expected.

you held up our end just fine, Greg.

Nice pic of your garage.


G'luck

Just sign up, no fee to post in OT over there.
Check out the WOEII threads while you are there, he cracks me up.

Thanks :)

Doesn't seem like too many of them do their own work. Too bad, this might be a case of more money than know how!

I just smoked a Vette this morning on the way to work and I come across this. Where do I sign up in the Corvette forums to let them know their brethren 'ain't' what they're cracked up to be? :D

Bragging about spanking a 79 200hp Vette with an S4 would be like someone with a ZO6 bragging about beating a stock 79 - 928.....

Damn some of those guys are cheapos. I'm only 25 and I can afford to maintain a 928 AND IT IS DRIVEN DAILY. Do Vette guys have the budget of Honda CRX owners?

:roflmao:

It was actually one without cross-fire injection.

i agree, very miss informed. Some of the stuff they said would be like me saying, hey isnt the corvette interchagible with the camero? WTF? sounds like few of them do any of their own work on their cars. T quote the great Mr. T, " I pity the foo who dont twist they own wrench! " :)

Holy **** did I see someone said that 928s have a six speed? :roflmao:

You should see how much that conversion cost from a auto.

Me, yes.
Most of the guys over there, not so much. :)

Blown, I would sign up, But getting into a pissing match with those guys is really not my cup-o-tea. I mean trying to tell them that most of the newer Vette's design was lifted off our near 30 year old design may cause some of those guys medical complications. To me , the Corvette is the Pamela Anderson of automobiles, Its cheap ,mostly plastic, and available to most anyone, not to mention you can find a similar one on every corner.

Preach on sir, Preach on. Couldnt have said it better my self. Also, I too need to spend very little to keep my 928 running. I bought mine in college on a college budget and have had it running ever since (2.5 yrs so far). Total cost to fix/maintain was/is way less than my tab at The Tavern.

Kevin,
The 928 is not the first car to have a transaxle design. If my data is correct, the 928 is the 7th production car using this setup.

Pontiac put a transaxle in the Tempest back in the 60's.


On another note, if you are at a track event in a 928 and warp or crack a rotor you are screwed unless you brought along a spare, and we all know how much they cost.
In a ZO6 run down to NAPA and spend about $20.

With a supercharged and intercooled vette to? UH HUH ;)

I was not suggesting a pissing match, but I can see how it looks like I might have been by just posting that link.

Maybe Doc will buy it and give it a good home.

ehh.... posting one brand of V8 into a different brand of V8 forum could spark tensions similar to Israelis and Palestinians.

I know you didn't mean it that way. I just knew if I went over there, I would cause trouble.:)

Some of the guys and girls over there have some real deep pockets.
And some are like me, just car guys who work for a living and spend almost every penny they have on there cars. :)

Erik, I didn't say "configuration", The word I used was "design". Comparing a Tempest to a 928? You are hereby banished to the Corvette forums till further notice! Man, first Tim prods me and now you? Next you two will demand me to turn in my supercharger and boost guage.

I know what you mean, it is hard to just sit back and say nothing when folks that don't know what they are talking about bash something you love.

I think for the most part they were not bashing the 928 at all, but it is a Corvette forum, just like this is a 928 forum.

All in all, I think the Corvette forum and the 928 forum has more adults postings for the most part, than lets say the Mustang forums.

There are more brand crossovers in these two crowds than a person would think.
:)

The only design aspect the Corvette & 928 have in common is the transaxle (other than front V8, hardly unique to either).
The suspension is very different, the engines have nothing in common other than the number of pistons. They actually get a 6-speed.......

What am I missing here? What part of the 928 design did the Corvette take from the 928?

Taking the time to correct any misconceptions would be a service. Saying anything derogatory about our cars here would be taken the same way there if you were to post a dis on the vette there and deteriorate quickly. I don't have time to debate whether either is 'fugly'.

Erik, I can't remember the publication, but some people who know more than me or you wrote a piece on it sometime back, may have been posted here. I may be wrong, and if I am, I will certainly apologise. Sorry to have struck a nerve........Btw, did you know that cobra replicas are......J/K!

Kevin,
You should know by now hitting a nerve with me is pretty hard to do. Just trying to help out before you log on and tell the Corvette folks their cars came from the 928...:)

IMO I know more about Corvette's then 928's....:icon501: don't tell anyone around here, might get me voted off the island.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, and we all know that happens often enough. The concept and theme of the 928 beginning was based on the US market for a high performance, GT coupe ala the Corvette of 1976-ish. which was a bad Corvette to sample IMHO. The layout was a wild departure for Porsche at the time, but they felt that they could storm the market with a Corvette-beater from the mid-70s. Again, not much of a challenge if you ask me.

So, while the similarities are few under the skin, the integrated bumpers, and front V8, with rear drive was more a concept model from the Corvette than any actual design taking. That would be somewhat of a stretch to say.

Clearly the car was aimed directly at the American muscle car market which had grown quite stale by the mid 70s. The Porsche 928 was a real departure for the German car maker, and tried to take away some of the Corvette market along with the other muscle cars of the time - such as they were.

Porsche certainly felt they could bring a technologically superior car to market in the US and compete handily with Corvette. OHC, Weisach axle, rear transaxle, and all around disk brakes were still quite exotic over here.

If the track is the ultimate test of the performance and reliability of a car and its design, then how do they explain a 21 year old 928, with its original engine, beating on a regular basis, (or at least even) with a 2000 Vet Z06 with a built motor. AND, Rob is a very good driver as well.

I think that is the acid test. If they want to see it in person, there will be two races at sears point this weekend!

MK

fwiw, a hoosier equipped Z06 spanked every porsche at a recent AX in SD. even a prepped GT3, heavily modded/trailered 911's and 968's - and even my stroked beast (albeit on street tires, but a beating is a beating).

the guy could drive well, and the car can haul butt in competent hands.

the old vettes look cool but suck at handling compared to most sports cars, imo. but the Z06 stuff is a whole nuther beast. probably the best sports car to ever be birthed in the USA since the pantera, shelby cobra or ford GT, imho... course it did take cheby nearly 20yrs to catch up - but they clearly did, imho.

a cool car, but no big deal compared to what the germans have been up to in the meantime - ever try to out run a new AMG 55?? good luck! w/4 doors, full leather, independent climate control, race bred independent suspension, incredible handling and oh - 500+hp thats so quiet you can hear classical music pauses. now that's an accomplishment!!

prolly be another 20 yrs before cheby or ferd can come close to that.

The E55 is faster than the the ZO6 C5 Corvette. The E63 is actually faster than both the E55, C5 and NEW C6 ZO6 vettes. Ironically, the factory understated the amount of power in order to glorify the SL55, SL63 and SL65 AMG cars.

Oh and don't get me started on the Black Series CLK63 AMG. It's a DTM car legalized for the street with Ferrari quick F1 shifting.

Here is what those look like:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/614873111.html

There is no harm comparing similar vintage cars, 928 vs Vette vs whatever. Comparing a 20XX Z06 to a S4 or a GT is just plain silly, especially stock to stock. Once you start talking mods, all that matters is how much you spend.

Corvette guys have a certain mentality that is impossible to change....the "America is Best" thinking.... They have their ignorant opinions and will never change.....

However on a MY vs MY basis ALL 928's outperformed vettes by a wide margin....about the only time it got close was when the LT1 came out in 1992...but then the GTS came out with 45 more hp....again 928 wins

+1. the germans still build the meanest rides around, imo... the bmw roadsters and new I series stuff is pretty cool too. the new 997 variovane turbo is pretty slick also.. 480hp and 460tq out of 3.8 ltrs!! all wheel drive and lots of clever technology...

if the vette boys give us too much flack, we'll just have to call in our younger brothers, hahaha
:cheers:

Well, I don't think that's really true. The ZR-1 was a beast. It was publicly available just like the 89-91 928GT on an order basis. I would not want to go up against a ZR-1 with my GT. Now the garden variety 'vette from 90 is no problem.

90 ZR-1; 375HP, 0-60 - 4.9sec, top speed 176MPH, lateral G - .88. Beasty numbers.

What ? "Clearly the car was aimed directly at the American muscle car market which had grown quite stale by the mid 70s. " And "The concept and theme of the 928 beginning was based on the US market for a high performance..." The mission statement was to produce the very best sports car that they could make. The ladder framed fiberglass body " KIT car " assembled by Chevrolet was a cruel joke foisted upon a poorly informed USA market. They proved that you could use a modified sedan chassis and suspension cover it with plastic and you had a "sportscar". Porsche probably thought that you could sell ANYTHING in the US market. Their competition was Mercedes , Jaguar and to a much lesser extent the impractical exotics. Porsche did not think they could get the 911s to meet the increasingly difficult UA emissions laws. Those same laws along with insurance company policies are what killed the muscle cars of the late 1960s. It became very very expensive to insure a 400 HP car with poor brakes and horrible suspension :) The ONLY thing a muscle car did reasonably well was burn outs ! The US was an important market but Porsche already knew that you could sell a 911 with a 914 engine in the US :) and if you could do that ...... So no I do not think they did much more than laugh at the Corvette and the USA buyer ! With only a 273 cubic inch engine the 928 was no "muscle car "

I know more Corvette owners then 928 owners, the mentality you describe is few and far between.
I find it more common among P-car owners to have the "I own a PORSCHE so my car MUST be better" attitude.
It's funny listening to the owner of a N/A 944 with S rated tires tell me what POS's the new Corvette is, and how his car is superior in every way.

Every car group has its idiots.
ZR1 - started with 375hp in 1990, went up to 405 by the time the GTS came out.

928's SUCK and the corvette RULZ.:icon107:

Hey you wanna come over and arm wrestle my grandma? Or would you rather fight my 3 yr old over her easter candy?:icon501:

They seem like a decent enough bunch. The strong majority told the joker to go for the deal, if only to flip it. If he's goofy enough not to understand that his side of the equitable scales is slammed to the ground when he could trade straight up a POS Ranger for a running, driving 928 of any vintage, then he doesn't deserve it.

Just read the CFOT thread. As 928 threads go on non-928 discussion forums I can't complain. Pretty civil. I'd say there's even a lower than average percentage of mis-informed posts.

The only comment that raised my blood pressure ever-so-slightly was "... the dreaded 928 motor.... when the timing belt breaks ..."

IMO, when a 928 timing belt breaks (or shreads, or looses teeth) 99.9% of the time it is because the belt system was abused by an incompetent technician or the system was neglected for a decade or two.

One more thing... read C&Ds review of the '08 Vette. Gives a good history of the 'vette, as it's now finally developed into a respectable full spectrum world class sports car after, oh, 55 years of trying. Comparing a 93 LT1 to a 93 GTS... GTS wins because it's a far more refined vehicle. 'Vette should win in a straight line, but who drives in only straight lines (besides John Force, et al)?

IMO this is BS. I'll take any 50-60's Corvette or almost any Porsche from that era. Few years ago I had the pleasure to drive a 60's era 911 and my friends 67 (small block) Corvette in the same day. Sorry, the 911........no thanks.
In the 70's, well, that was just an ugly time for all car companies except maybe Ferrari.

Remember the Escort showroom stock series in SCCA? Corvette's were put into their own class since they spanked everyone (even the Porsche's). The Corvette Challenge was born and was an awesome series (while it lasted, friend of mine has Jeff Andretti's car).

When the ZR1 hit, every magazine said the same thing "finally a world class car from Corvette!!!" I have the C&D issue where the ZR1 spanked the Countach and Testarossa.

Is a C4 on par with a 928? Performance wise yes, build quality? That is a matter of opinion, and I own two 928's so it's no secret where I stand. :)

Jim, the mission of Porsche was, and is, to sell a lot of cars. Their radical change from rear engine air-cooled to front engine water cooled was driven by more than emissions laws, and more by market penetration. By 1976, the 911 was stale, the 914 was dead, and the American consumer showed no desire to move to a Pinto from the days of the Thunderbird.

You are right that if the best US makers could do was the Corvette, Porsche had to see this as a gold mine for GT car sales. also, remember in 1979 NOBODY had any horsepower to speak of at any displacement. To give you a perfect example, the highest HP US vehicle for model year 1979 was the Dodge 'L'il red express' TRUCK!(truck EPA laws were more lax then) Porsche had a high perf version of a 2+2 Corvette killer. It's been that way since the first 928 hit the shores. There have always been comparisons with the Corvette. Fair or not, that's what Porsche was aiming at. MB, and Jag were tombstones during that time. Jag almost pulled out of the market entirely during those years, but stuck it out until they recovered. MB gave us the 450SL. A POS from day one, and the only Euro GT(?) car of it's vintage to be worth less than a same year 928. Puh-leeze.

You know Doc you could not be more wrong if you tried.."the mission of Porsche was, and is, to sell a lot of cars." . At the time being discussed it was family owned ,family operated , and run by engineers NOT marketing guys. Ferry has been quoted as saying " We built cars which we would like and hoped other people would like them " . Now recent times Porsche does build transportation disposable designed to be used and discarded cars but that is NOW. Like if you want to rebuild your 996 transmission Porsche will sell ZERO replacement parts you buy a whole gearbox or a new car ! Remember the good old days when Porsche was into racing they wanted to prove that their engineering was better than other's....that was then now is about short term profit and selling lots of cars being the most PROFITABLE auto company. My point remains that Porsche would not have aimed that low :) they KNEW they would build a far better sports car. When they presented the 928 to the stockholders (family) on the Weisach skidpad July 23rd 1976 ..the photo shows " several comparison vehicles completed the picture at this presentation and symultaniously established the arena in which this new sports car from Porsche would compete " page 152 of Project 928 ...in the background a 911 , a 635 , XJS , and the Merc. There was no Corvette in that picture :)

Of course Porsche wouldn't compare their car to a Corvette! That's like giving free advertising to the biggest competitor. DOH! I still recall every car rag in the US doing a comparison on the 928 when it came out and every one listed the Corvette as it's direct competition. Sure, it wasn't evident in Europe in 1976 but Porsche sure knew that was the direction in the US. If they were unveiling it in Germany, what else would the use?

And the days of engineers deciding on the company direction ended in the late 60s. That's when they decided to license out the car building to VW/Ghia for the 914. It was about profits. They were working up to the IPO German-style so they had to have some $$$$ coming in. sure, the 928 was all German engineering, but the hatchback, 2+2, front engine, auto-trans style components was right out of Detroit circa 1971 'Cuda, Mustang fastback, and Corvette(sans the mini-seats).

Doc care to explain how a $28,000 sticker price 1978 928 "competes" with a $13,653 1978 Indy pace car edition Vette ... ?? And there were cheaper Vettes... And yes the USA based auto magazines who got a lot of advertising money from Chevy did make comparisons. Perhaps worth noting that for every 928 sold in the US nearly 1 1/2 were sold ELSEWHERE. The 914 was only sold as marketed as a Porsche in the United States because again the average US buyer did not know the difference :) Now for the inspiration for the 928 we need to look back to AMC and the .....Pacer !!

As I recalled the actual stock offering was not until ..."May 4 marks the 20th anniversary of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG’s, public stock offering. The sports car manufacturer’s preferred stock became available to investors in spring 1984 and was immediately in demand. Porsche stock has become popular over the years,..." and the Porsche and Piech families have retained over 50 % ownership. Keeping it firmly in family hands.

I was waiting for the pacer to rear its little bubbly head for a good ol fashioned 928 trainwreck. I suspect those owners were repressed future 928 owners, aliens or just really stoned, hahaha

but what else could vette folks compare to back then? mustangs or a dodge datona? I think by the mid 70's the vette was probably closer to a euro or emerging japanese sports car than most american stuff in terms of trying to be a performance sports car.

course at well over 3k lbs, I think most "true" sports car folks were not impressed by the american effort or our U boats at the time. guess we have that distinction in common.

I do wonder what would have happened if the 928 had been more successful and stayed around. would it have become another bloated 650i? or a z06 type hot rod? or morphed into a 4 door sports sedan, a la panamera or E55? or a pacer? hahaha

:burnout::burnout::burnout::burnout:Want to race?:burnout::burnout::burnout:

You think they would get upset if we all joined and chimed in at the same time?:)

comparing and contrasting is one thing, but heckling is another, imo. and why piss off decent folks? heck, most PCA AX events I go to I'm the only 928 guy and we all get along just fine. and most every car nut I"ve met at other events have been decent folks too. I'm always interested in a well kept or modified 928 as much as I like to see other well cared for examples of nearly every era and type. so why would I want to piss on anyone else? kinda seems like something a redneck/retard would do, imo.

sure, we can race - http://zone8.pca.org/events/2008/05May/GPXDayAway.pdf if they'll let that lump of boat resin on the track, hahahaha

:cheers:

Nice C3 :)

Now 928's are so cheap that you see that car, morphed with a 928. Interesting to see.

I got a kick out of that corvette thread.... 6'10" chain. Man, that's a lot of bicycles there.

heh, I've already been banned over there. Back in '01 i posted a kill on a C4... Guess they didn't like that.

Yeah... just like a Cayenne :icon107:

Dan
'91 928GT S/C :eek:

That is the automotive equivalent of a "Wolf in Sheep's clothing"

Wow, I haven't posted over there since '03. I like the C4 Vette as my daily driver, but I love my 928 and the crowd here:cheers:

Where are you in this small state of Texas?

Nice looking intake.

Rockport, just north of Corpus, South of Victoria. Best fishing on the coast:)
And THANKS for the nice comment on the intake, I polished it myself.

Hell, I have both a Corvette (a 64 Roadster) and my 928. In my case, they've got different purposes. I'd never take the Sting Ray through the canyons like I do with the 928. But they both peacefully co-exist in my garage, and they come out on different days, depending on my mood.

I have, on occasion, referred to my 928 as a "German Vette" :)

Well, as a new 928 owner I can offer a good opinion of which is better.

Opinion:

I see 20 or more Vettes everyday, they are a dime a dozen. I see 2 or 3 928's a month, they are quite a rare sighting. My friend has an '05 Vette, nice looking and fast, but a common boring sight.

So, if you want to be background noise, get a Vette. If you want to be a true head turner, buy the 928.

Wow. I see 2-3 928's a year! Tops.

Except for 928 gatherings around here.

"Full spectrum" was the operative phrase in my statement. True GT cars are blasts to drive AND don't beat you up in the process. IMO, no 911 could qualify as a GT car, before 1990 anyway. (unless of course, it's a GT2 or GT3! :burnout: but that's only because they call it one, and it's a different demarcation line). ZR1s had blah and uncomfortable AmURican intURiors, and they were always twitchy handlers. 928s arguably had the whole GT concept figured out from the get go (despite a paltry 8+ second 0-60 and 16+ second 1/4 mi times; data source: the original 1979 928 brochure, but from memory; I might be off by a second here or there), and like the 'vette, improved with each version (that is obviously open to substantial debate as to both vehicle lines!). The old Vettes are, IMO, definitely not GT cars, but American muscle wrapped in a slightly-more nimble package.

The biggest accomplishments with the latest Vette itteration is the handling and braking improvements, right? In its current form, the Vette is a superior being to the 928 from a performance and GT car standpoint, as of today. They are undeniably an amazing deal, too. BUT, who knows what the 928 would look like and be capable of had Porsche stuck with it. Maybe we will see in the Panamera. Either way, it won't be the value/deal that a Vette is today.

The biggest issue for me, and one that others have mentioned, is the relative plethora of Vettes on the road compared to 928s (I see at least one every day; typically I see a dozen or more and in a variety of colors; I also see a few 911s, and a few Boxsters, every day); their commonness makes them far less appealing to me than a sorted 928 (of which I have seen 2 this entire year other than my own and others at special events). But those performance specs are undeniably amazing for the $......

prolly don't see a lot of 928's cause most are in the shop or dead :icon501: kinda like seeing a model A driving around, hahahaa

I still wouldn't mind a 59-59 vette, maybe a stingray too. along w/a nova SS, olds 455, mustang 500gt, etc, etc. wifely would kick me out for sure.

I am a little concerned about people thinking that The panamara will be the new 928. This will be a 4 door sedan. Grant it, a fast one but still a lux sedan.

if it'll keep up w/the E55 and has cupholders, it'll be a hoot/hit. iirc, there is a 500hp version in the works for it...

I think it's possible that Porsche will use the Panamera to bring back a 928-like, or rather create a BMW 650-like vehicle, ala the 650's 745i cousin/brother from another mother. I don't think a 4 door vehicle could ever be the "new 928." :) Of course, Porsche did make a couple of 4 door 928s from time to time. (I've actually only seen photos of an old 70s one; never seen the photo of this 86 before; but I like the suicide door mod!)

I wonder if anyone ever photochopped a 928 into a stretch limo...

Well there will be a Panamera Coupe coming after the Sedan...

Mine is the only is the only one that I have seen in real life since I was 8...22 years ago.

I am begining to think that none of yall exist and are made up in my mind. scary.

::roflmao::roflmao:

Yeah, I really enjoy my imaginary friends here too.

We really do exist but we all live in Biloxi and are hiding from you. :)

give the Vet boys a little to look at :

http://www.youtube.com/v/sjbhDRkGkcw

Mark UN-FREAKIN'-REAL . I bet they hate when you show up in your STOCK 928 and chew on their modded cars. The 928 may be a little slow off the line, but it takes a hell of a car to catch it when its wound up a little. Thats why I pay no attn. to stock 1/4 and 0-60 times. Way to rep bro!!!

Done!

aww shiatt, here we go!

Well now Normy had to but his 2 cents worth or $3 dollars worth in on the Vette thread! lol

I think ol' Normy gave em' too much too fast over there and it stagnated the thread. Maybe Craig's (aggravation)post 'll pick things back up a little.

Boy, that silver #78 Vette had a long, long look at the tail lights of that 928!!

Those little Motorsport Pro camera's are pretty cool. I think I may have to have one before SITM this year.

MK
Sweet vid....the comparison between the 928 and the Vette is very interesting.....especially the way you put power down sooner than the vette can pull away in tight corners better.....considering your at least 30whp down and only 100lbs lighter....& the vette has coil over suspension, not crappy leaf springs....

Its not so much that the Vet keeping up with the 928, its really about the 928 being able to keep up with the Vet , which is running pretty fast now!
The interesting thing now, is that both of us are running almost the exact same times no matter what track we go to. recently, i cant tell you about the .030seconds that separate us.

The vet is actually, 250lbs heavier, now maybe more like 175lbs heavier since he shed some weight this winter, and his HP comes from a built, C5 motor with drysump, etc . 395rwhp. So, im down about 90hp, but have a little on the weight side!!

the Vet is just a US 928!

mk

Here is Part 2 of the weekend video. Some of the in car is a little better due to the new digital camera. Better quality on the 2nd race, when i was able to adjust the white balance.

This has some of the rear cam video of racing with the Panos.

You can even hear the rev limiter more than a few times. :) After all, i do have a back up motor now!

Did you notice the "bumpdrafting" of the RX7 after i finallly got by the little lightweight rocket in the video part 1 clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7E7s9gJ63A

Man, that looks like so much fun!!!

Your 928 sounds sweet as hell!!

nice driving mark!!

I tell ya guys...some of these posts sound like they come from 17 year old, pimple faced adolescents that only want to "smoke " the back tires and make a lot of noise. Who cares about the comparisons? Your not going to convince hard core Vette fans to come over to the 928's and vice versa.....Just enjoy the car you like...what ever it is! I for one enjoy ANY vintage car that someone has put effort in...not just Porsche's. I have owned and restored one TR-6, 2 corvettes, 2 Trans Ams and have enjoyed each one. After all...if the 928 was as popular as Mustangs , vetts, camaros, firebirds...we would see them all over the place...I like having a car that isn't common. Except when I need a part on a Saturday that is.

Just a reminder..."Those little Motorsport Pro camera's are pretty cool. I think I may have to have one before SITM this year." ...there have been numerous instances where police have used video to prosecute . :)