Jim @ EuroWerks

WHy would it be so crazy for this to happen? I saw stuff in th late 80's with P cars that people call bs all the time. I just stopped arguing. I know the things "I" saw. The first 944T CS I saw, never hit the books at the dealer. they showed up on a flat bed and someone picked them up within the hour in an inclosed truck. They probably went to some race team somewhere. I hear about cars that were at the Porsche schools and wound up in a customers hands. A 928 in Texas, well, I was told I couldn't speak about that one.

Vilhuer

Which of the features were from the factory, cup I wheels? IIRR it was mentioned in some article that they were part of the package. If they are not, what else has changed since car left from factory? Why info in different places is clearly wrong? For example meaning of C00 and M018 option codes? Attempt to make normal German model sound more exiting? All information simply do not add up.

mallman

So right , my dad was a nascar mec. when you are in the loop you see and sometimes are in the middle of STUFF from the factorys that the so called x -perts have no clue.But just because it is not on paper it's not true.Sometime I would like to sell them a bridge.

mpesik

Uh-what the lady said.

Nicole

LOL - this thread will never die...

DR

Hi Nicole,
Will try to call you today...Jeannie has made me stay outside away from the phone until I get all my used parts sorted...LOL

Anyway, to throw more fuel on this smoldering fire.. I saw a few comments about the body parts and mentions of AIR making them.

According to first hand convo with Dan at AIR over 13 years ago (97-98?)..he said he bought the patterns/molds for that stuff from Porsche, who according to Dan, had made them as a quick cheap aero test that was not persued past that stage. According to him they supposedly assembled a few cars (2 or 3?) with the parts. I do recall him saying something about an abandoned "Executive Program", can't recall the rest.

Of course this could have just been a sales pitch on his part...but if you spent much time with Dan...he was a "straight talker"...OK, OK, he was grumpy and his attitude was here it is buy it if you want it, if not have a nice day, "bye" and I respected him for that....but I never knew him to "hype" his parts, and certainly never knew him to spew BS... Unfortunately Dan passed away last year so I can't quiz him to fill in the blanks in my memory.

However, this doesn't mean someone BS'd Dan with this story to sell him those patterns, but knowing him as long as I did, and with his almost 40 years of History/experience, I would be surprised if he got "punk'd" like that.

FYI, Dan's history of Porsche Racing Bodywork and connections with Porsche is actually historic....and goes a long way back (started custom bodywork in the 70s). IF anyone could have gotten the patterns for those parts from Porsche...or talked them out of some "odd" prototype stuff...Dan would be one of a very few who could pull that off.

Over the past few decades it would be hard to count all the "AIR" Bodywork circling the tracks of the world...99% off it you would have never know it was his.
















RIP Dan.

nc_growler

DR - Great follow-up! Thanks for adding history and color to this post. I swear, I learn more about our cars (and Porsche) every time I look at RL... And this was a great example of learning details that would never come to light if it weren't for folks like you taking time to relate stories like this!

DR

It was mentioned more than once in some of the Memorial Posts in various forums that it was a darn shame Dan never wrote a book about all of his experiences and knowledge.

I could never dream to be compared to the likes of Dan, but I have heard that comment lately that I should do the same....not a good feeling to think about.

BUT, Dan was only 71(?)....time is our enemy, and is the one thing we can't control.. OR predict!

Cheers,

White Lightnin'

I believe there is a distinct possibility this is real. It is not far fetched to think that Kremer was commissioned or at least assisted in the design of these body pieces. Porsche & Kremer were in bed together in many of their racing programs back in the day (the 935 is one of the most well known of these cooperative efforts).

If these parts had gone into mass production, Kremer would have most certainly assisted in meeting the production numbers. After the prototype/Executive stage, there may very well have been an 928 'S5' model (in fact, that is what AIR calls the rear spoiler that is on my car).

There are many instances where something that has happened would not have happened 99% of the time; where prototypes exist that should have been destroyed; where top executives had their cars built to their specs (think Ferry's 4-door) -that were not available to anyone else. To think that something is not possible, when we weren't there to see it... is somewhat naive. Sure... proof & provenance is needed to say for sure, and it exists from numerous sources.

We will all choose to believe what we want to... and being an owner of an AIR kit myself doesn't affect my beliefs. I have seen numerous other "impossibilities" that exist when they shouldn't... like a 1943 copper penny -when they were made in steel to use copper for bullets in WWII (12-15 known to exist); or a 440 Sixpack engine in a 1972 Roadrunner -when the engine was discontinued in 1971; or a 426 Hemi engine in a station wagon -when it was not an 'authorized' engine selection; or a 'factory racing only' aluminum front end on a 1963 Plymouth 4-door street car. You really cannot rule out the possibility of a lot of things.

Just my .02

Ferri

Let me revive this thread... it is almost four years without messages.

I've been reading carefully all posts related to GTE unit, and after several months investigating my car origin (thanks a lot, Samuel), I almost can say have a GTE twin brother (fortunately without Kremer accesories).

The point is my car has a CS engine, CS gearbox and CS chassis configuration (even M637 option, 220, 393, 474 appears in Porsche CoA, not in papers), but some things didn't match with CS 'definition' like sunroof, isolation, Hi-Fi audio, rear windshield, speed control and so on.

However, all options listed (018, 139, 298, 326, 383, 387, 650), exterior color (G1, guards red), interior color (VD, black leather) matches exactly with GTE options and were delivered in same trading partner (1001010, some kind of internal Porsche department, not a dealer)

Right now, what I would like to know is if really this engine has 360 bhp!!

I just left you a couple of yesterdays car pics!

M. Requin

Interesting, very much looking forward to the discussion of your 928!

Vilhuer

Take it to dyno to see how much it makes at rear wheels. To have 360 at crank it should make more than any GT with X-over. Other possibilities are to remove plugs at the rear end of the heads and see what numbers cams have in them. Measure compression ratio and compare result to normal S4 and GT engines. 12:1 ratio should show up as larger compression. Take LH and EZK maps out and compare them to normal S4, CS and GT maps. Doing these will give enough hints if there is anything special inside the engine.

928cs

The easiest way is to take it to dyno.
The cams should be "regular" CS ones, as the engine is a CS\SE M24/41 SP, with a number close to my ex-CS, which had a 350hp engine from factory (special order).

Ferri

Thank you for your advice! I'll take the car to a dyno as first step. Sorry for my ignorance, I'm not familiar with this devices, so let me drop any questions:

- Should I look for any specific type of dyno. I've seen different brands and ways to do it. Actually, how it works?

- What are the parameters I should get or the machine provides? The usual power provided (is a DIN norm?) are measured in crank, gear, wheel? How knows the machine the gear relations?

And finally, the other day heard it could be dangerous for car an something could be damaged. That's right? Is there actually anything to take into account?

Thanks again and best

Vilhuer

There are several different types but it makes no difference which style machine is used. More important thing is how accurate dyno is. This depends somewhat on what style it is but usually how well it is calibrated is much more important. Some dyno operators like to give inflated numbers because it makes car owners happy. Best option is to find local dyno which is known to be accurate.


Most dyno designs give numbers at the wheel and calculate estimated crank hp and tq. Some can measure specific drivetrain loss estimate based on what rate wheel speed slows down. In general manual 928 loss should be around 12-15%. Important thing is that car is running properly. All sensors need to be working properly. Otherwise result is meaningless.


If done right measurement shouldn't cause problems. Thing to watch is that car stays on rollers and engine air to fuel ratio is ok. When dyno operator knows what he/she is doing it should be safe.