1981 928S Euro Advice
 

I am picking up a non-running used 928S Euro Model tomorrow on Saturday. I did do an inspection myself, I am handy with a wrench and it looks as if all is there. I also did note the VIN and California Emissions sticker on the door jamb. So I am assuming all emission equipment is there.

The current owner contacted the original owner and got some history on it. It has been non-op since 2002 and registered with the Calif. DMV as such, so there are no late fees involved, just transfer of ownership fees.

I did run a Carfax on it and it came up with multiple passed emission tests in the 90’s, then in 2002 it failed emissions, which seems to me when the engine was getting worn. It shows 99K on the dash and seems to match up with what was showing on Carfax. A recent entry in Carfax states that the “Title issued or updated – Not built to US standards.” I questioned the owner and he said original owner passed last smog in 99. That all seems to match up, but I was wondering does it just say “not built to US standards” because it’s a Euro model?

I am getting the 928S for $850 and am going to take it on as a project. Can you give me some veteran advice? I really really appreciate it.

failing smog doesn't really mean a failing engine. It could be an out of balance air/fuel ratio or a failing catalytic converter.

Does the car crank?

BTW, Welcome to Rennlist. :)

HI Mongo and thanks for the welcome. I dont have possesion yet so I am only going from my initial inspection and owner feedback. I am told the engine is hard to turn and it may be toast. Original owner said it had overheating probs before going to a non-op status. I am just wondering of the "Not built to US standards" in the Carfax details. And yes you are right, as it could be multiple of things going on but wont find out till I get into it.

chances are if the engine had been overheating, the head gaskets are toast on that motor. If it's hard turning that could be pretty scary. Enough coolant may have gotten in the cylinders causing the engine to hydrolock. While I'm not saying that happened, a hard to crank engine could even mean a low battery of the car has been in non-op status.

The car is NOT an S not the 4.7 engine .... good luck !

Ok, so the rear bumber that says 928S is probably a replacement? Is it because of the year? Please explain as I am learning about this car.

MPDano--

Where's the car now? If it's in any of the major metro areas, someone from the list can join you for another look-see. Take a compression gauge, a plug wrench, a squirt-can of oil, a set of jumper cables with you to check the engine. You'll want to verify the engine number to make sure it is in fact a Euro S, and not just a Euro with S trim added. Value is in the S engine, otherwise it's not worth the aggravation. And it may not be worth it anyway, depending on the condition of the rest of the car.

In Cali, it's the seller's responsibility to get the car past smog, by the way. There's no legal way to sell a car here as a 'parts car', off-road use. etc. If it's gonna be registered. That gray-market early Euro has CIS mechanical injection, plus whatever the importer decided to add on to get it through the import process. Might have stuff grafted on to it, distributor changed or recurved, cats added, oxy sensor and modulating loop added. All depends on who did the mods and the certification on import. MAKE SURE you get the federalization paperwork with the car, or you may be doomed to having the car parked in your garage forever.

If you are in the greater LA area, I'd be happy to visit the car with you.

HI Bob,

Great input and the car is sitting in San Diego, Cali. The seller does have the current California DMV Title. I would think you couldn't even register the car in Cali if it didn't have proper Emissions installed and working. I am new to Federalized Papework as I never heard of this. If the seller doesn't have it. Would the DMV have such records on file?

Body is pretty straight, no noticable dents or dings. Interior will need some work. All new locks and tumblers will be part of the deal as original key is missing. All seems to be there as far as I can see. Oh, do you know of any repair manula for the 81 928? I can't seem to find it on Haynes or Chilton.

The 928S is a $20 DECAL that you stick on the rear cover ...the car has no S spoilers , no S wheels just the decal ....

I was going to look at this car as possible project too. You beat me to it. And my wife is really happy about that! :)

Please keep us updated on your progress and post some pictures if you can.

Good luck,
Glen

The ONLY aftermarket manual was the Chilton which has been out of print for maybe 10 years and had ZERO electrical information. Feel free to call me and we can talk about your car...

I pretty much acquired the same thing...but mine was running...kinda. As far engine issues, you are just going to have to methodically go through the car one item/system at a time until it is all sorted out.

A couple of things to look for when you go see the car is the stamp on the block. Mine reads M28/12 Which means 4.7L Automatic. This stamp is located on the top front of the block just left (passenger side) of the thermo housing/water bridge and just right of the Auxiliary Air Valve.. You may need to push the wiring harness out of the way. M28/10 is 4.5L auto, M28/09 is 4.5L manual, M28/11 is 4.7L manual and of course the M28/12 is the 4.7L auto.

You will also see a Warm Up Regulator directly in front of the intake plenum attached to the block. Where the gas feed and return lines are, you should find a hose with a banjo fitting that runs back to the fuel distributer. If you follow this to the driver side of the engine, there should be an electrical 2 pin plug with some after market wiring running to the cowl into the car to the passenger foot well fuse panel area. There you will find a US federalization CIS box. This is also hooked to the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. This right there will tell you if the car has been federalized. Also look underneath the car by the bell housing to see if there is an oxygen sensor in the exhaust.

You need to get the car running before you can get titled and such. The best you are going to do at the DMV right now is just register it "In-Op". I haven't even bothered to do any of that yet here in Oregon. It's not on the road and what the heck do they know. Why fork out any cash now. The car has been in op for a while, so whats the difference. To get the legal road stuff, you will have to be able to drive the car there for a physical inspection and then get it smogged.

I am a quick study on these things by asking lot's of questions and just taking things apart and putting them back together. If you have any mechanical know how, you will see what is right and what is wrong. I tend to remove all previous owner wiring and foolish add-ons because they are just future trouble. I am very close to registering my Euro, I just have some small issues at this point to sort out. I bought the car thinking I was buying a running beater, but basically opened up a whole can of worms that I have been chasing for the last 3 months.

Good luck, do several searches on this forum before you ask questions that have already been answered and if you can't find what you want, ASK! This is the best place on the planet for 928 info!

Keith I talked with the owner of this car before he listed it for sale. We concluded that it was NOT an S and opted not to buy it. The ZZZ in the middle of the vin number usually makes the DMV computer wig out ! It is highly unlikely that the car will smog (failed in 2002) ...since it will probably be referred to a State Smog Referee not just a test only but the State guys ...I believe that this car has not moved under it's own power for YEARS ! I seriously doubt that the none op papers were filed each year and the federalization papers are long gone...

If this is giong to be your first 928, start with one that runs.

If it were an 84-85 EuroS then maybe.....otherwise I don't see this car being worth the effort as an entry into 928 ownership.

Just being honest, good luck!

Keith, if you are lucky like I was- the carfax showed when mine came into the states and when it was released from bond and that was good enough for my DMV- but we are talking Mo and not Cali- so hope all goes well for you.

Keith escaped from Socal and now lives in Oregon ...:)

Hi MrGST. It looks like a fun one too. First thing I did was tow her to a Car Wash spray booth and douse it with engine cleaner to see what was under all that grime. Pulled a plug and was expecting it to be white from overheating (seller stated orig owner had overheating issues), and was surprised to see a blackish carbon (rich?). Tomorrow I am going to pull all the plugs and see what the others tell me. Do you have an Eclipse GST? If so, I got a Gray GST Spyder too. :bowdown:

Hi Jim, thanks a bunch for the offer. I may take you up on that call when I get stuck. The seller did include some pretty informative shop manuals on it, so I guess I am ok for now. Thanks again!

Thanks Keith for all the advice. I am glad I read your post as I was going to ask where the engine ID was located. I will take a look tomorrow in the daylight and see what I got. i agree, this forum rocks when it comes to answers :)

Hi Keith, yup I bought the car earlier today and yes it didn't pass in 2002, but the weird thing is that all previous years it DID pass emission inspections. Carfax showed them in 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1998 as passed emissions. I will verify tomorrow when I can see if the engine is a 4.5 or 4.7 via engine ID. Non Ops were filed and the Seller and I went to the AAA to finish the paperwork (continued Non Op and Title). There was also another failed inspection in 2003. So i would say it has been Non Op since 2003 sometime. :crying:

Yup, Carfax shows 1986 when a Calif Title was issued. :)

Heres a few pics:

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/1.jpg

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/2.jpg

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/3.jpg

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/4.jpg

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/5.jpg

http://www.krazyhobbies.com/images/928/12.23.2007/6.jpg

Welcome Danno!
The body looks to be in good shape. I notice you are missing sidemarkers behind the front wheels. Is that a key hole below the gas cap?

Hi djurek, nope thats a mising side marker under the gas cap cover. :crying: We're there supposed to be markers behind the front wheels? This is a Euro version.

The car has US front fenders, so maybe it was involved in a front end accident at some point.

There is something wrong with the intake runner on the drivers side, 2nd from the front....it looks like someone shortened it or its the wrong one completely

EURO
 

Yes, most euro's I have seen have sidemarkers behind the front wheels. I see you have a rear fog light. Maybe it was a California thing. There is an engine code stamped on the top of the motor under the stabilizing bar. M###. Did you find it? You can look it up on 928 specialists web site.

Hi Airflite,

If you are talking about the plastic air intake above the radiator, then it's just unhooked and not mounted. I just kinda set it down to take the pics.

Found it! M28/10 Looks like its a 4.5 after all.

No.....let me illustrate my point more clearly.....notice the difference?

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/600/87019607bi2.jpg

those intakes are 4.5L Euro intakes. you are comparing them to US version.

yes, he has a 4.5L CIS M28/10 Euro car, the same as mine (except mine is a 5-speed car).

the front fenders are US spec, as described above, and should not be on this car (probably wrecked).

the hole in the rear quarter was probably an added maker light (I've seen quite a few with BMW markers) for federalization.

hope you get it running to see where you're at on restoration prospects.....

(my guess it was parked due to a TB issue, but that's no big deal on this one...)


not bad for $700.

---Russ

it could have been like this:

After removing the door panels, the original color was Brown "like shown in your pic," it might be that one :burnout:

No Russ, that engine pic I posted is from a Euro car, it seems that his car has 1 mismatched intake runner, maybe from an S? I was waiting for Jim Bailey to chime in

You mean the square one under the P of Porsche?

I think that is standard on Euro's, certainly mine has one

Marton

I just took a closer look at that hole in the rear quarter panel and it looks like a shabby hole, so I am sure it's not stock to Porsche.:)

of course the whole in the rear quarter is not stock, they were cut for rear markers when the car was federalized

Borys - It appears that someone put a Euro S intake tube in place of the original (second one back from Drivers side front). Hmmmmm....

that's what I was thinking too.... thanks paul

What would this cause?

So how much more is a euro S 5 speed worth? Thats what I have and I really never even knew people saw them as better than a standard 928. I actually thought it may be worth less because every time I went to the dealer the parts guys would give me the short speech about how they could not guarantee the part they had would even work on the car and it was not recognized as a valid car or something.

Sorry, Borys----

you posted a US spec engine (the brown 928). Look at the WUR. Compare with MP's Euro 4.5L engine....see the difference in the WUR mounting angles? Besides, the tubes are too small for M28/11 or M28/12.

try again----

MP--

try to get the casting numbers off of the intake tubes. I can reference these for you as I have intakes from 4.5L Euro, 4.7L Euro, and 4.5L US spec.

Let me know-

--Russ

I went back a took a closer look at my M28/11 intakes.

The one in question on MP's car is the tube from a M28/11-12.

The rest are probably 4.5L Euro spec.

Wonder how it got there.......

Borys--I did confirm that the pic you posted was a US spec engine, I'll post pics of a 4.5L Euro intake and a M28/11 intake if it helps.

---Russ

How did you confirm that?? Because of the WUR mounting angles????

The engine picture I posted I know for a fact to be out of a EURO 928, non S.

The WUR's seem to be mounted at different angles becuase the pictures were taken from different angles. The WUR's on a 928 AFAIK were only mounted in two ways..... sideways and top/bottom. All us spec CIS engines ended in 79 and they had the sideways mounted WUR and they all had a different breather system which vented the crankcase back to the airbox instead of back into the intake like the EURO cars starting in 80 did (see below)

http://928registry.org/Eurocars-1982-928-0240.htm

here is a US-spec CIS engine from a 79

http://928registry.org/1979-970.jpg

Borys-

I mis-spoke... I should have said the aux air valve.

if the picture you posted was a Euro, and I now see that it came from a Euro on Chuck's registry, please explain why the aux air valve is at the same angle as a US spec engine....? May be it's just the camera angle, but it does not look at the same mounting angle as my Euro. This is why I made the statement about it being a US spec engine. A 4.5L Euro looks just like a US spec except for the aux air valve mounting angle, breather hose not withstanding. Sometimes it helps if you reference these in more detail.

I took your picture to be a Euro "S", which it is not (you later stated non "S").

As with other 928s on Chuck's registry, this one isn't correct either. It's not a Euro "S"........

Besides, who knows if any of these were original from the factory, and who knows what the stupid Germans did when they built them.....?

Maybe the intake tube on MP's car has been there from the beginning?????

To say that "it" is so may be correct for the majority of production, but there may be "mistakes' in that production as well?

--Russ

I never stated or even implied that the engine pic I compared it to was a EURO S engine, or even a US spec engine when MPDano's engine is neither of those.

I noticed something out of place and I posted that pic to show him what I was referring to since at first he didn't get it.

Why would I post a pic of a different engine when trying to show a new owner that I saw something out of place on his car?

I am FULLY aware that the car is incorrectly labeled as a EURO S on chuck's site, but I have learned enough in my 5 years of rennlist to know that it is a NON S EURO car and that is why I used a pic of its engine since its the same model that MPDano has.

I seriously doubt that this intake tube was on the car since new, I think that somehow the original was lost or damaged and replaced with a EURO S intake runner since those (believe it or not) are more common in the US than NON S euro cars.

What effects 1 mismatched intake runner would have I'm not sure, but I know I would not run my car like that....

If it helps, here is a pic of a '82 Euro S (M28.11) motor. Why would only one intake tube be replaced? Possibly the injector needed to be replaced and the original tube was either damaged during the removal process or they just replaced the whole tube because they could not remove the old injector (I'm just guessing here). The only issue I could see running the engine is that the intake on cylinder #6 has slightly less resistance than the other 7 cylinders. It might make the engine run slighlty unbalanced (don't know if it would be seat of pants detectable or not)
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/p1010021a.jpg

It's OK Borys.........

I just didn't know that you had pulled the pic from Chuck's registry.

You are correct in pointing out that the tube is out-of-place.

Now that all of that is settled, I have looked back at PET and other sources to reacquaint my memory as correct in that the 4.5L Euro's used the same tubes and plenum as the US spec 4.5L cars......

And yes, again, I have 4 sets of intakes to reference:

1 4.5L US spec M28/03 (currently in a box)
2 4.5L Euro spec M28/09 (currently under the Christmas tree @ Dad's--powdercoated RED, and one in a box)
1 4.7L Euro spec M28/11 (currently on my car)

It's really too bad we don't have 3-d vision on these monitors...we could all get a better view of what we're trying to figure out!!!!

Thanks for the help Borys----glad you're looking at the details.

--Russ

Nice starter Shark- you beat me to it...,
 

Hello MPDano,

Congrats on the red car. I too considered picking up this car- In fact Mr. GST and I talked about when it showed up on craigslist. I haven't owned a Porsche before, but I have this crazy idea that I can get one for a good price, as you did. .

Once you get it running and looking great, please do me the favor of showing us your updated car. I think it will motivate me to find another one.

I think a straight bodied 928 of any year is a steal for $700 dollars... Good luck:

__________________
Driver- (97 Benz E420); Classic-(71 Jaguar XJ6);
Toy- (91 B-Package Silverstone NA):
http://www.evozine.com/miata/

Thanks evozine! On a cruise right now so the restore process begins when I return. This list is great and I am learning a whole lot from it!:burnout:

Most $700 928s are a liability not an asset. Try to get it running smogged and registered spending as little as possible to get it there. Then after you have driven it decide if you really like the car and wish to invest many thousands of dollars making it nicer. As a decent running driving car it is maybe worth $3,500 but getting it to that point will cost far more than that. Good luck with the car.

I have been seeing a lot of negativity in some posts. I guess the way I see things is not the cost to get there, but the adventure and experience I gain. I also love a challenge and hate to see a once quality car become one mans Pick a Part car. I'm an optimistic and a forward positive thinker. I was once a President of a Club and hard time getting forward thinking ideas past a very "non-change" Board. Funny how after I stepped down as Prez after completing my year, and the following year they decided that my ideas were great and then were implemented. When I was a young teen, I took a $400 Triumph TR7 and put maybe $200 into it and sold it for $2000. I guess I'll just keep being positive about the project and keep learning new things from all you 928 Vets on this list. You guys rule!! :bowdown:

you will get many opinions here and elsewhere as to what's a "buy" and what's a "scare".

I'm with you on challenges, as long as you have a realistic (maybe) plan as to what you want to achieve.

Agreed it is so sad that Porsche's flagship has just not been more appreciated that it is......

--Russ

I completely agree with you. As I mentioned earlier, you beat me to it. I thought it would be a really challenging but fun project. What part of town are you in? I'm in south Carlsbad and would love to see it sometime.

Hi MrGST,

I am in the East County "El Cajon" and it would be my pleasure for you to take a looksy sometime. I may pull one of the heads this weekend and see what I got. Although if it rains like projected, I may be spending a Blockbuster weekend indoors. :banghead:

Ah ..."I may pull one of the heads this weekend and see what I got. " Why would you want to do this ? The engines are quite good and reliable some go 300,000- 400,000 miles without a rebuild . Get it running so you can see IF things like the transmission actually work. As I recall the none running problem was thought to be a bad ignition switch....think positive the engine is probably just fine !

I have to. I guess I posted what I have found in another post, but I pulled all the plugs and found that one looked out of the ordinary. It was cleaner than the rest and was wet. I am suspecting a blown head gasket or head warp. Not sure and the history was that it was overheating. After pulling all the plugs, the engine still wont turn via crank pulley bolt. I put Marvell Mystery Oil before I left on Vacation and was going to try and turn it this weekend. Thus, why I was going to pull one of the heads. :burnout: As far as the ignition switch, it was toast by the previous owner when they took the pod apart to replace a new key tumbler, so I ordered a new one.

OK the engine is locked up ....now I understand.

Well, tried to turn the motor during a rainy weather break today and no joy. Still frozen. Looks like I'll be pulling the head (left) this weekend. Hopefully it's not raining again. It's not supposed to rain in Southern Cali :)

:burnout:

Yeah! A Beautiful Sunny San Diego Weekend
 

Here we go, my first Sunny California Weekend to pull the suspect Cylinder Head. Here are some pics of the progress and yes it took me ALL day to remove the Cylinder Head. Probably would have been easier to rent a Cherry Picker and pulled the engine out of the car then work on it.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/1.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/2.jpg
Exactly as I thought, some rust buildup from a leaky cylinder.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/3.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/4.jpg
I can't believe how hard it was to remove the bolts on the valve covers. Hence, would have been easier with engine out of car.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/5.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/5.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/6.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/7.jpg
Nice oil n coolant mix.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/8.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/9.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/10.jpg
Suspect Cylinder!

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/11.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.12.2008/12.jpg

Wonder how long it's been sitting around like that.......

What's the other side of the engine look like (internally)?

that's really nasty---

--Russ

Well, this cylinder was the only one that looked bad when I first pulled the plugs a couple weeks ago. This is why I pulled the left cylinder head. I suspect the other side is fine as the other cylinders. I already cleaned the cylinder off and need to get some PB or something to break the cylinder free. I tried to turn the crank bolt again just after these pics with no luck. I agree, it is nasty. I think the previous owner tried to fix the head gasket with Bars and this was the result and it just sat for years. What spray is best to loosen corrosion? I heard that radiator flush may loosen it. Anyone have any suggestions? :burnout:

I say don't waste anymore time with it and just go get a cherry picker, unbolt the engine, pull it out and stick it on a stand. This is half a days worth of work with some buddies and beer.

If I had the room, I would have done that with my Euro. Instead, it has been 2 months chasing **** around the engine, contorting my limbs and digits and using words that would have made Richard Pryor look like a saint. I probably could have had all of the nonsense I am deal with now, all behind me and driving with a smile.

YANK IT! It's easy to do and for what you have and what it has been through, you will kick your own ass for not doing it if you try to fix it in the car.

That's pretty funny Keith, but you're probably right......with one that's that bad, I would not have wasted one minute trying to fix it in the car.

I haven't as yet pulled my 4.5L, and it's got a bad hole as well (I have no idea what's wrong with it, just that the cylinder is down 30 PSI/compression w/ lots of blowby). It does run though, I just can't see pulling it when I'm building a hybrid to replace it.

build the new one, keep driving it until the new one is ready, then take a day or two to do the swap.

--Russ

If that engine was run with that much coolant in the oil the bearings are not going to be very happy. The other head probably has about as much corrosion as the one which failed.

Anything less than a rebuild on that engine is just a temporary band-aid.

Hi Charley and Brutus,

I agree with your posts and am trying different ways to try and at least un-seize the piston. I found an old drive boot from my boat I sold and it just happened to be a perfect size to fit around the cylinder. I cleaned off the piston as best as I could with a non-metal brush, put the boot on and poured some Radiator Cleaner in the boot to remove the corrosion. I will do the PB spray if this doesn't work. I don't have a Cherry Picker here, so i thought I would try some stuff in the meantime.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.13.2008/1.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.13.2008/2.jpg

http://www.porsche928forums.com/images/1.13.2008/3.jpg

I also vote to pull the motor......not as hard as it seems....with some help its a days work, less if things go well......

You might need to either rebuild that motor or get a replacement....the good news is 928intl has plenty of known good motors for cheap....$1500 to $1750..so its cheaper to get a replacement

http://www.mailordercentral.com/928i...s.asp?dept=115

While the engine is out it gives you an excuse to upgrade to the newer header design too....or custom headers?

Yea, now that I think of it, Brian's right. Your engine is a 4.5 which is no big deal. For cheap seats and a lot less work, just take a used engine and stuff it back in and call it a day.