List Censorship
09-23-2002, 04:03 PM
#1
Racer
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List Censorship
Well, apparently some don't like the comments I've made about Eric Munck. A thread that I had been posting in has been closed, and a new thread that I started on the topic has been deleted. Some things concerning him were also deleted from the SoCal list previously. I guess whoever is in charge of this and the SoCal list have the right to do whatever they want, and can supress any comments and opinions if they feel like it. It's there list and they can do whatever they want with it. That's not the type of list that I wish to be associated with. I've posted in response to others questions and offered help with their problems in the past. I will no longer do so on this list. If you have a question, problem, or comment, maybe those in charge of the list can help you with it instead.
09-23-2002, 04:10 PM
#2
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I'm very sorry to hear that Mike - you have been a true asset to this forum.
Having said that, this forum is not intended to be a platform for individuals to wage their personal campaigns.
I hope you change your mind about leaving.
Having said that, this forum is not intended to be a platform for individuals to wage their personal campaigns.
I hope you change your mind about leaving.
09-23-2002, 04:22 PM
#3
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I'm concerned about the subjective censorship. I recall a variety of threads on this site where people have been raising red flags based on their experiences. Those threads were allowed to continue regardless of whether rebuttals were offered.
What I remember of the Munck post was a debate that contained both support and criticism.
Why was that thread deleted?
What is the general rule for censorship?
If the thread was removed due to a Rennlist policy, an indication to that effect would be helpful, especially if there is an intent to discourage similar behavior.
What I remember of the Munck post was a debate that contained both support and criticism.
Why was that thread deleted?
What is the general rule for censorship?
If the thread was removed due to a Rennlist policy, an indication to that effect would be helpful, especially if there is an intent to discourage similar behavior.
09-23-2002, 05:10 PM
#4
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Well,this is the 2nd thread I have seen deleted since I have been a member.
I personally got lost after a few responses to the deleted thread so I quit reading it. Although, I do recall about 50 posts so there must have been some interest.
I thought one of the valued aspects of Renn was to help other 928 owners. I know I benefited by the "learnings or mistakes" others have made. I have been doing my best to try to contribute also.
I thought that thread was discussing a problem and not all agreed on. If we cant post "watch outs" or opinions on "watch outs" then .......
I personally got lost after a few responses to the deleted thread so I quit reading it. Although, I do recall about 50 posts so there must have been some interest.
I thought one of the valued aspects of Renn was to help other 928 owners. I know I benefited by the "learnings or mistakes" others have made. I have been doing my best to try to contribute also.
I thought that thread was discussing a problem and not all agreed on. If we cant post "watch outs" or opinions on "watch outs" then .......
09-23-2002, 05:32 PM
#5
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Yes, it is a subjective thing - based on the feedback and messages I received from other participants here.
The original Munck discussion ('Spooled Up GTS') is still here for all to read and enjoy Big Dave - it was never deleted, nor have any other long-running topics been deleted in the past Jerry. Closed perhaps, but never deleted.
The original Munck discussion ('Spooled Up GTS') is still here for all to read and enjoy Big Dave - it was never deleted, nor have any other long-running topics been deleted in the past Jerry. Closed perhaps, but never deleted.
09-23-2002, 05:34 PM
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Well, The valid points have been made. Do tell what makes the differences for censorship? Why one and not the other? Not jumping on the band wagon, but very interested.
John D.
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09-23-2002, 05:44 PM
#7
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I think there's a fine line between allowing awkward but relevant subjects a decent airing and maintaining a forum that remains an amiable and enlightning place to discuss our common obsession. I for one wouldn't like to be in Randy's seat but I think he made the right call here.
DaveW
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09-23-2002, 05:47 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Mike,
I'ts a shame.
You're a valuable member of the list. We need you.
Interesting. My wife and I made a 300 mile round trip to DC and back yesterday in the 928, (saw a dark blue "s" shark with a woman driving near Frederick, Md. anyone here?) My wife asked me if there were any women on Rennlist. I mentioned Jessa, Nicole, and Brit. I was telling her how valuable Rennlist can be to all of us. I further explained my pleasure that there's seldom a negative attack, (I forgot about Normy's drunken 100mph neighborhood drive thread!) and that the people on this list are a very classy bunch who stay mostly focused on the car and how to get the most out of the 928 experience. "I'ts like a family board" I told her.
Some of us participate in the Rennlist email 928 list and it can sink very low sometimes. I'm glad the web board does not sink to that level. Sadly, when the email list gets OT and nasty, Wally and a few others dissapear for a while. They seem to be not interested in wasting time with that B.S. I would hate to see that happen here.
The "Devek screwed me" thread made me wonder where the board was headed. We seemed to collect ourselves on that one and move on. When the deadbeat thread came up a while ago, I had a bad feeling. The positive side is that a number of listers had experience with that person and important facts were made public. The negative side is that the focus of the board changes. Making negative comments about people and businesses will slowly turn off a number of regulars and the board will suffer.
Mike, please reconsider. This may not be the board for unlimited expression, but it is, by all accounts, the best venue for enhancing the 928 experience. I would imagine that you have been able to take something valuable from this board, even if it is not as much as the value you have given to it.
Greg
I'ts a shame.
You're a valuable member of the list. We need you.
Interesting. My wife and I made a 300 mile round trip to DC and back yesterday in the 928, (saw a dark blue "s" shark with a woman driving near Frederick, Md. anyone here?) My wife asked me if there were any women on Rennlist. I mentioned Jessa, Nicole, and Brit. I was telling her how valuable Rennlist can be to all of us. I further explained my pleasure that there's seldom a negative attack, (I forgot about Normy's drunken 100mph neighborhood drive thread!) and that the people on this list are a very classy bunch who stay mostly focused on the car and how to get the most out of the 928 experience. "I'ts like a family board" I told her.
Some of us participate in the Rennlist email 928 list and it can sink very low sometimes. I'm glad the web board does not sink to that level. Sadly, when the email list gets OT and nasty, Wally and a few others dissapear for a while. They seem to be not interested in wasting time with that B.S. I would hate to see that happen here.
The "Devek screwed me" thread made me wonder where the board was headed. We seemed to collect ourselves on that one and move on. When the deadbeat thread came up a while ago, I had a bad feeling. The positive side is that a number of listers had experience with that person and important facts were made public. The negative side is that the focus of the board changes. Making negative comments about people and businesses will slowly turn off a number of regulars and the board will suffer.
Mike, please reconsider. This may not be the board for unlimited expression, but it is, by all accounts, the best venue for enhancing the 928 experience. I would imagine that you have been able to take something valuable from this board, even if it is not as much as the value you have given to it.
Greg
09-23-2002, 05:53 PM
#9
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I too made a factual post responding to the comments from Chris928 where he states that Mr Munck waited for an aluminum radiator from a "favorite supplier" who manfuacturers aluminum radiators duh...sounds like - DEVEK .....and Eric waited for 10 weeks (false) and that caused his delaying the GTS SC effort.
Hey, we mess up enough without folks making false statements regarding our company!
I posted and stated the facts to correct the situation...very factual, and with no malice.
It too was removed.
Oh well, seems like we need some "constant" guidelines as to what can be posted and if something inflamatory goes through, how long it can stay up! Maybe I am a little sensitive to the latter issue
Marc
DEVEK
Hey, we mess up enough without folks making false statements regarding our company!
I posted and stated the facts to correct the situation...very factual, and with no malice.
It too was removed.
Oh well, seems like we need some "constant" guidelines as to what can be posted and if something inflamatory goes through, how long it can stay up! Maybe I am a little sensitive to the latter issue
Marc
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09-23-2002, 06:28 PM
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Debating an issue without personally attacking someone is the real question and a very fine line that on occasion gets crossed in public forums as I have witnessed in the past some 20yrs of my work career. I finally, personally chose to email Abby privately concerning that thread and read him the riot without holding back. However, publicly, how many people do you all know that are capable in debating an issue when verbiage heats up with out raising their voices and steering the directive off track, which in my opinion, and it’s just that, my opinion, seems unwarranted to the cause, waist of good bandwidth and does nothing positive for end results.
I personally applauded Dave Sarten for posting and would of like to seen some positive follow up but that thread was turning into a bashing contest between individuals in which I myself was guilty of doing.
I support the administrations decision in closing a thread when it appears to be un-constructive and of no benefit to the 928 groups. And remember, I fully support the first amendment rights.
I remember and read that Socal thread you all refer to and I firmly believe it was closed due to “that gentlemen’s” choice of foul wording and directive with again, nothing positive to come out of it. It had nothing to do with negative comments geared toward Eric Munck.
God, now let’s see…better read my previous post to see if I have attacked anyone personally while attempting to make a point in hopes to avoid any new “in quotes” replies I occasionally get.
Marc@Devek,
Damn, I missed that one on the radiator…I’m sure I had something silly to add to that one as well. And I even have one of those radiators in my shark and like it but you do have a good point…hmmmm…Randy, your thoughts?
Tim Delarm
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I personally applauded Dave Sarten for posting and would of like to seen some positive follow up but that thread was turning into a bashing contest between individuals in which I myself was guilty of doing.
I support the administrations decision in closing a thread when it appears to be un-constructive and of no benefit to the 928 groups. And remember, I fully support the first amendment rights.
I remember and read that Socal thread you all refer to and I firmly believe it was closed due to “that gentlemen’s” choice of foul wording and directive with again, nothing positive to come out of it. It had nothing to do with negative comments geared toward Eric Munck.
God, now let’s see…better read my previous post to see if I have attacked anyone personally while attempting to make a point in hopes to avoid any new “in quotes” replies I occasionally get.
Marc@Devek,
Damn, I missed that one on the radiator…I’m sure I had something silly to add to that one as well. And I even have one of those radiators in my shark and like it but you do have a good point…hmmmm…Randy, your thoughts?
Tim Delarm
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09-23-2002, 06:30 PM
#11
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P.S......
Mike, come on...don't take all this so personal. Sounds like you have some experience to offer to those possibly in need of help. We just need to keep our dignity about us when working through these discussions.
Agree?
Tim
Mike, come on...don't take all this so personal. Sounds like you have some experience to offer to those possibly in need of help. We just need to keep our dignity about us when working through these discussions.
Agree?
Tim
09-23-2002, 06:36 PM
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I'd like to encourage the forum moderators to allow objective criticism and even a certain amount of subjective opinion, here. It serves to warn potential clients about service issues and to inform service providers about their public projection; a positive in both directions. I'd say that it were appropriate to censor posts where personal attack and invective became the predominant issue.
09-23-2002, 06:45 PM
#13
Racer
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Afer reading this I had to go back and see what all the fuss was about...Greg86andahalf.. I could not have said things better..I agree with you wholeheartly...Mike...please do not leave...this board is made up of many..with various opinions..it's called being human.Randy...I don't envey your position here..but do agree on closing the thread.There comes a time when things go nowhere but downhill.It appears this was one of those....Just another opinon...
Michael
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09-23-2002, 07:16 PM
#14
Come on guys....censorship is never good. I am the listmaster of the PacNW 928 list and we too on occasion have off topic (even on topic too) heated debates....
I have never censored any posts and our threads always come to a decent conclusion without any party feeling put out. I think that even in the worst case threads, I would only endeavor to guide the subject to stay on topic and somewhat 928 centric....no more than that.
The Munck thread was relatively tame in comparison to Normy's diatribe on catless running or the 100mph in the neighborhood threads...
It's all info and one can choose to not read the thread if they want.
I saw the anti Munck post on the Socal list too. and the posters problems was that he just came in and slammed Eric without any intro or anything, and the Socal listmaster simply put an end to it.
It would be a shame to lose a knowledgeable resource like Mike...same goes for Wally, and the countless others who have helped out on occasion....
Hope the listmasters will re-consider their approach....
Later,
Tom
midlman@seanet.com
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I have never censored any posts and our threads always come to a decent conclusion without any party feeling put out. I think that even in the worst case threads, I would only endeavor to guide the subject to stay on topic and somewhat 928 centric....no more than that.
The Munck thread was relatively tame in comparison to Normy's diatribe on catless running or the 100mph in the neighborhood threads...
It's all info and one can choose to not read the thread if they want.
I saw the anti Munck post on the Socal list too. and the posters problems was that he just came in and slammed Eric without any intro or anything, and the Socal listmaster simply put an end to it.
It would be a shame to lose a knowledgeable resource like Mike...same goes for Wally, and the countless others who have helped out on occasion....
Hope the listmasters will re-consider their approach....
Later,
Tom
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09-23-2002, 08:31 PM
#15
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Why don't you guys just all come over to my house and...
1. Rewire my fuse panel
2. Chase down all of my electrical gremlins
3. Stop the warm air from entering my console
4. Get my 928 back on the street.
All of the information on this board is good, but this latest stuff is crap. We all love our 928's. Get over the petty s**t and if you don't like someone or agree with them, don't respond to them.
By the way, I am still waiting for Randy to apologize for the crack he made about me wanting to put a bra on my car (to cover up some clearcoat problems), but am I bitter ?
Actually, the gold chain remark WAS funny...
Rob <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
1. Rewire my fuse panel
2. Chase down all of my electrical gremlins
3. Stop the warm air from entering my console
4. Get my 928 back on the street.
All of the information on this board is good, but this latest stuff is crap. We all love our 928's. Get over the petty s**t and if you don't like someone or agree with them, don't respond to them.
By the way, I am still waiting for Randy to apologize for the crack he made about me wanting to put a bra on my car (to cover up some clearcoat problems), but am I bitter ?
Actually, the gold chain remark WAS funny...
Rob <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />