bchan

I'm a new 928 fan and have located a 79 Euro for about 2K. The car has a salvage title - but does run well and is a daily driver. It has been involved in a small front end accident - the hood is damaged and the owner claims that the front end needs to be pulled back a bit (he claims $1500 US - is this true?).

The car is an automatic (owner claims it is a 4 speed automatic - I only thought that they made 3 spd automatics) and has over 120K miles on it (the odometer stopped at 120K and he does not know the exact mileage). The car also needs to have the steering rack replaced (he claims about $250 - is this true?)

I asked the guy about the difference between the Euro model and the US model but he did not know (other than instrumentation was in metrics). I thought I saw somewhere that the engine had a little bit more hp but I seem to be finding conflicting engine specs on the web.

Bottom line - I have not yet seen the car but I am planning to next week. Given that - I like your advise.

My questions are:
1. What is a reasonable offer to extend? I don't mind having a project car (I had many in the past but this is my first Porsche) but I would like to adjust the price accordingly.

2. I am interested in having a bit more power with the engine sometime in the future - ok - a lot more - given that - am I better off starting with another model? I am attracted to this particular car because of the "project" status and the price. However, given that I will need to spend some $$ to get it fixed, and then some additional $$$ to make the performance mods - is this a good move on my part or should I hold off and wait for another model?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jim V

The '79 euro's only had a few (5?) more HP
than the US versions and would have come
factory equipped with a 3 spd auto.
If the damage is bad enough to have bent the
frame rails these cars are very hard to "pull", and you'll end up with a bash and
twist into place job, the bodies are very strong and tough to correct once bent( 944s are like this too).
The shop manuals show a section out and replace approach to repair; I've done this and it's time consuming and somewhat difficult but the result was an arrow straight chassis.
Unless this car is nicer than it sounds or
he's practically giving it away,I'd walk.
Just an example; I bought my '80 US auto with front end damage, 91K documented miles,
receipts for new timing belt and pump and alot of other recent maintanance for $1300.

Jim V

Kaz

Ultimately it's all about your comfort level. The prices he gave you on repairs are very very very low. Is the frame bent? I'd walk away if that's the case. These cars are expensive to maintain and it would be in your best interest to buy the best you can afford up front rather than the cheapest and spend money over time to get the car there, if ever.

Ed Ruiz

Unless you have at least six months to spare and are mechanically inclined or have so much $$$ that it's burning holes in your pockets, pass on this one and find one that actually looks good and drives well.

Leave to projects to those with the equipment, the time, and the $$$.

John Krawczyk

Run! Run like the wind.

Ed is right. If you have that kinda money to spend on repairing everything. You can buy a damn near perfect 80-84 "s" model. You might even consider the US 85 1/2 - 86 MY "s" with the 300hp 32V engine.

If you want a good project car, get a old VW Golf or Dodge Omni and turn it into and SCCA IT car and go racing. At least you'd get some bang for your project buck.

Well thats what i would do anyway...

John Struthers

bchan,

I wish Randy, or, John D. - site moderators - could find a message icon consisting of a smiley face with a foot in its mouth, as I would probably use it here.

First take a close look at the car, drive it if it runs, check out the lights, a/c, tires windows. Hell, just go thru the message board and archives pick and read the various problems and fixes - do you have the tinkering skills to tackle a bunch of these little problems? The time and tools and garage space?
I agree with all of the above posts with the exception being on, costs more on that in a later post.
I'll posts some of the parts costs tonite as well as some other sites with repair archives. But, as the above posts hint at, being enthusiastic is a good thing, buying a sHARk that may have been owned by more than one PO's who were short on skills as well as cash and who drove the car in steadily deteriorating condition cannot possibly be a good thing.
From my point of view: I spent over $4000.00
in airline tickets/food/lodging... in search of my sHARk and came REAL close to a fistfight several times and litigation with losers who had running -barely- PARTS CARS they had advertised as Immaculate/cherry/pristene/show room/....
So, what I'm getting at here is the very human trait to modify/bend/distort the truth still applies to you even though the owner has informed you of 'some' of the problems.
Those damned Germans made a gorgeous car which even in bad shape tends to click on the old 'POTENTIAL VISION' lightbulb in our heads. I'll post some of the referred to parts costs tonite. In the mean time exercise extreme caution.
Remember the 3 major definitions of the term 'SHARK BIT'- there are more - .
1. You fell in love with the look, handling, sound, and power of the 928.
2. You ran up against one of those OLD 928's in what you thought was a very fast, capeable car. You were promptly handed chunks of your cold *** on a paper plate with no condiments. Bon Appite'!
3.You had a vision and bought a 928 parts car.
Think about this!!! O.K.?
later,
Keep em'rolling
John S. 82' Weissach, Auto. 'Pattycakes'

Jay Wellwood

I loudly echo Ed and John (pattycakes) comments.

Let me share with you my experiences (to date)-

Yep, I'm a sucker for the beast - fell in love some time ago. Finally decided the time was right and started looking in earnest in October last year.

Found what I believed to be a perfect speciman - 87 S4 Auto - the car had even been featured in European Auto Magazine!!! Man, I'm thinking this is the one! It even had 'race cams' as well as the stock originals to boot. Receipts for Flappy and HVAC work - this is really lookin good! It's the middle of December now - so I feel giddy!

Contact seller - ask the numerous questions, ask for pics (take note here), etc/etc.

Get the responses I thought I should get (take note here)...seller and I come to a mutually agreed upon price. I send the funds - I get the title back. Get the car registered and plate - fly down to get what I've dreamed of...a stunning beauty Black w/ Linen Interior.

Meet at the Airport - there it is...hmmmm, looks prety good at first - then I start looking closer - well, I'm stuck so I drive the car from Florida to Arkansas.

Then the fun begins....

-HVAC needs work (3 of the 5 actuators had vacuum leaks)
-Center Console was cracked around the Shift Indicator Panel
-Shift Indicator Panel was burned by careless/clumsy smoker(s)
-Carpet looked like rolled up Qtips thanks to many improper washings - and it was still dingy.
-Both front seats were dyed - Drivers had a bad leather repair (disguised by the dye job)
-Passenger front seat back is frozen in position due to bent pins.
-4 of the Dash Indicators did not work - including the dreaded 'Belt Ten' (that wire was actually cut at the connector in the back of the Pod!!!)
-Shift Position Indicator lights in the Pod were burned out
-PO had installed GTS mirrors, but he just hacked off the wiring harness and bolted 'em up (with about 3/4 inch of wiring to work with)
-Parking Brakes did not exist - period.
-1 CV Boot torn, 2 others dry rotted.
-Windshield Washer system in the hood was not properly connected.
-Intensive washer system wasn't all there either.
-License plate lights and under hood lite didn't work.
-2 speakers were shot
-Torque Tube bearings shot
-2 bent rims, all 4 w/ some amount of curb rash
-Cruise Control toast
-Foglights don't work at all
-All window guides toast
-Belt Tensioner was shot
-The race cams were the wrong equation for the Automatic transmission
-The full throttle switch doesn't work

I've probably left soemthing out here, but that is a pretty good assessment of what I needed to repair

And that was just for starters...

With the help of the rennlist members (thank god!) along with the Shop Manuals and my VERY patient SO....I've fixed nearly everything.

Today, after so many hours I can't count them (probably close to 700 at least now), and at least $10,000 in parts (I'm not kidding here) - only the Cruise Control, Window Guides, Full Throttle Switch and Fog Lites remain as items left to fix (and those parts are on order or in hand). I'll wait until the Winter to make the Intake Dive...the rest I can fix and still drive the car.

Take heed - pictures are worth a thousand words they say - but they still aren't as good as the naked eye. If possible, get the PPI done by someone who KNOWS what they are looking at.

In retrospect - I let myself get taken for this ride. I spent more than I should have, and got a neglected 'babe magnet' in return. On the upside of all of this - I have done ALL of the work myself (again, shameless plug for the rennlist members), so since I performed the work - I know how it all fits together - and received a tremendous amount of knowlege/education in the process (at least on an S4 model).

Would I do it again???

Nope - I'd a bought the '91 GT that I passed up for $26500 - and still been money ahead!

But - all in all, you get what you ask for I suppose...I now have a great car - still with a few minor nagging issues - but the planets are about to become aligned (and I have paid SERIOUS homage to the 928 Gods).

How does that saying go? 'Caveat Emptor' I believe???

Jay
'87 S4 Auto
(just passed 100K - and looking better every day)

John Struthers

Jay,
I had no Idea. Your demise, early on was
almost what happened to me when I flew down to Miami for my initial disappointment.
The idiot got me out of his van -a rolling dump- and into his shark-86'guards red- as fast as he could. We then rode around for about 30 min's somehow passing his bank -"We've only got an hour, John. Let's settle up now!" - The 1/2" crack on the pod was actually a road map,pass. seat locked - up, release missing, carpets mouldy/stained,
If it was leather it was CRACKED,paint faded on entire top of the car,two cracked windows,
THINGS obviously missing under the hood, no air cleaner,interior cover for sunroof motor
"around here" somewhere, sunroof trans. gone, there were no two matching tires on the car, both front wheels were so badly dented - he won the curb jumping event- you could see where he pounded the wheel lips back into place- sort of - with a Framing hammer. I was steadily looking up parts and prices as HE drove - when I showed the list and cost -thousands - he got mad and said, " no way was he coming down on his price" I asked for a ride to a taxi/bus stop and he told me to "git walking". I told him I would, but, would find a room near the Broward County Court House and come monday morning I would seek out the most successful, viscious, mean spirited, money grubbing attorney I could find. And within three months own everything he now thought of as his.
That turd! As he drove me to a Mall Bus Stop passed his bank and said, "we can still do this, John."
I used Ebay but refused to pay anything up front till I examined the car. Bad news: I'm an Ebay deadbeat x2 but I didn't get burned except for the mega bucks I spent flying to both coasts and everywhere in between.
Its a jungle out there! I feel your pain!
Later,
John S. & 'Pattycakes'

bchan

Hi everybody -

First - thanks for your very good advise - let me just say I deeply appreciate all your sincere advise and the time you all took to write them.

I am going to look at the car next week since it is local but from what I am reading, my own intuition and because of what I want in a 928 - I will more than likely pass on it (unless he practically will give it away to me).

When I spoke with the owner, my intuition kept saying "warning..Will Robinson..warning...". I find it very interesting that this guy did not know the difference between the Euro model and a US model, he told me that it had a 4 spd auto (when in fact only 3 spd autos were made), and then when I asked to see it that day - he made an excuse and said that he would be taking the car on a trip this weekend (even though he claims the hood and front bumpers are off the car!), that he couldn't tell me how many miles were on the car (since he claimed the odometer stopped at 120k). He also claims that he had the car up to 130 miles/hr (I wonder how he knew that when he said all the instrumentation was in metrics). He claims the car had a salvage title as a result of the "minor" accident he got into (insurance company considered it a total...)

The more I think about it - the more I believe now that he never owned the car but somehow came upon it and is now trying to make a buck on it...maybe I should just make him a lowball offer and leave it at that...

Thanks again everyone! I will update you on what happens next week.

2V4V

bchan,

Just to weigh in with the rest of the crowd, RUNNNNNNN! The body work/paint work will cost more than a complete car.

I have seen more than a few laughable piles of excrement that their owners thought were worth 6K. They were maybe worth 1K as a parts car. MAYBE. One with a lovely Earl Scheib paint job and interior modifications done by field mice. Another with a cracked windshield, 4 flat tires, half the intake in the rear compartment, and paint that was rapidly oxidizing from sitting out behind cousin Cooter's shop.

I finally got my 84 with nice paint, good interior (except for the dash and seats) and no dings, no damage. I'm around 10K right now (including the car) with GTS suspension and brakes, GTS a/t, new seats on order, and a boatload of silly little stuff (sunroof cables, window motor, switches, ad infinitum, ad nauseum).

Get a DEVEK and a 928 Intl catalog. Look up the prices. THINK HARD about where and when you're gonna do all this stuff. Add $60-80 an hour for everything you can't/won't do.

You can do a project 928 on a (for me) reasonable budget. You have to decide what is reasonable for you. Pay attention, look hard, and you should be able to find a MUCH better deal than this car.

EVEN if he offered this one for free, keep looking.

Good Luck,

Greg

John Krawczyk

Holy Cow Jay!

I remember your car at SITM. You have done miracles based on what you have just said. Your car looks great. So now it will look and run even better on the 15th.

You guys are making me feel bad. I just dont have one bad thing to say about my transaction. I lucked out 'cause i know the PO. We've hoisted a few together long before he ever owned my car. I was already in the market and searching when i found out he owned not one but two, and needed to sell one, my '79 and a '95 GTS.
He was telling me the other day he still had a hard time choosing which one to sell. Lucky for my bank account he chose to keep the GTS.

I did ask him for first refusal if he ever gets tired of it. I'll be waiting a long time. By then i should have enough money to pay for it.

Kaz

Man, after reading some of these posts I'm starting to realize how lucky I was in purchasing my 88S4.

Jay Wellwood

Thanks for the compliments John

I'll be there - no doubt. Only this time, my windows won't be rattling, my doors will stay open, and you won't be hearing the whirrriiinngg of my old Torque Tube (amoungst a few other things - like my engine not resting on squashed motor mounts)

PatrickP

I also echo and "don't do it" setiments previously expressed. I lucked out with my '85 in that I knew the PO who took excellent care of the car. Still, it was 16 years old and did (and does)need attention. Runs and looks great, but since the purchase I have invested in a new fan clutch and fuel pump along with other minor things. These are great cars but unless you either (1) have bags of money to spend or (2) invest a few hundred bucks to have someone familiar with sharks check it out, I would be VERY cuatious about buying a car that, just for the moment, seems like a good deal. No doubt, someone thought the same thing when cornering the market on Beta tapes.

Jay Wellwood

One other thing I would add.....

Please consider becoming a 928 Owners Club Member...

The website tips section has a TREMENDOUS amount of helpful information (which, together with the rennlist saved my bacon).

The cost is reasonable...and the benefits are terrific!!!

(Nope - now $$$ bags here - hell, at this point, I can squeeze **** out of a buffalo nickle!)