Choosing the "Best 928" and the Future of Fast Sports Cars (long!)
03-07-2007, 05:35 PM
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Choosing the "Best 928" and the Future of Fast Sports Cars (long!)
(Sorry for the length...I just had sinus surgery and am laid up with the laptop...and I have a T-belt job to do! If you don't like long or potentially controversial threads, stop here and move to another topic. I hope I'm not embarassed or banned when I read this after the med wears off)
Concerning OBs, '86.5S, vs S4s vs. the GTs…vs the GTS...and so on….Heinrich, BIGS, ROG100, Vilhuer and others make some good points in recent threads. At one point I was hung up on getting a GT (mostly for the 5-speed, limited slip, sport seats, and prestige). However, the more practical 928 in my mind (after listening to the discussion on this, may just be the later model S4 (great road gearing!! Along with some of the more modern updates that would be nice to have…but not really significant. The 5-speed, sports seats, limited slip, etc. would be requirements for me in the ultimate 928. If I lived in a large town, I’d want an automatic.
But really, all 928’s look nice and it’s the various features (mostly) which set them apart, the GTS being the top of the heap as it’s newest. The “best” 928 really varies from person to person and personal likes. And you can count on there always being a nicer color combination or "tempting deal" beaconing….
It’s pretty obvious that the diversity of opinion on which is the most desireable 928 will not be resolved on this list as there are so many variables. There will be disagreement because each of us has limitations/minimum requirements for our “most desirable” car, as well as how much we can afford to put into a “fun car.” (Notice: I did not say “invest.”) However, to read the various Rennlist opinions is educational. Discussing the pros/cons of each approach is helpful and, hopefully, can assist each of us in the choice of our next car or upgrades.
Frankly, the emotion (i.e., people getting POed) seems to center around 928 pricing discussions and the very mixed messages of the market's supply & demand. It's human nature to not want to see a car depreciate quickly, but the current 928 market is ambigous on the trend, at best. The ones who seem to be the most concerned are the GTS owners who stand to lose the most dollars if the market were to take a big dive. However, given the very limited numbers of GTSs, this may not be an issue. The larger issue would be the other new sports car offerings that are starting to become available for near-GTS prices.
Sports car dealers thrive in a couple of areas: 1) Each new model year is supposed to the grandest and greatest to that point. 2) You have the choice when buying a new car of ordering all the options you want for your “perfect car” even if you do have to tolerate depreciation the first few years. Buying anything else probably entails some compromise. If it weren't for depreciation, many of us wouldn't be driving 928. The guy I bought my Audi TT from purchased all the extras...paid more than $43K for the car, sold it two years later to me for about $20K...with only 20K miles on the clock. Ouch for him!!! But, the market for these cars is not on the rise and he wanted out. It hasn't depreciated a lot since I got it...but it won't be going up.
Sticking to sports cars, among Corvettes, there are a few years/models that stand out as “classics” and will hold collector value for some time. I have a dentist friend who collects ‘vettes and he can quote scripture and verse the pros/cons often accepted by serious collectors for each model year/option (even the value of an original oil sticker). And which cars have “losing” qualities. For drivers, the ‘vette guys just buy an old beater (which they end up improving) or a Z06 or newer model and garage their early cars. Different strokes...
Interestingly, among the more modern cars, the turboed Supra has gained quite a following. Check the prices on eBay for this discontinued “classic?” and you’ll see what I mean. There is a lesson to be learned here and a "new Supra" or clone should be forthcoming. It's a tempting performer...but the build quality is nowhere near Porsche.
As Vilhuer, Heinrich, Tdelarm, Shane, and many others have so cogently stated, there’s enough diversity among 928 cars and options to satisfy almost everyone….and which are best is like comparing blondes, brunettes, etc, Each model year and each option has its charm and attraction. And we can't have them all. Compromise.
GTSs probably shouldn’t even be a strong part of the discussion because there are so few of them made and the price/availability almost render them a dream for the masses. And, GTSs are not devoid of issues. I suspect, given the opportunity, we’d all have a special production GTS with full custom color leather, extra tanned cowhides, 12 qts of spare paint, burl wood, etc. sitting in our garages to lust. And we’d drive another 928 for the pleasure of it.
It really depends on what one is looking for. Shane perhaps has the soundest and most practical philosophy for SuperCharging an 86.5 and enjoying both the luxury and extraordinary power of the 928. With some important design improvements like PorKen and Dr. Ott are working on, the 928 indeed could take on a new life and be more widely recognized/desired. ROG100 must be counting on this!. The 928 is a great car and the sky is the limit on what can be done. A true driver car and perhaps the most cost-efficient very well could be the 85-85.6 supercharged?
The GT has desirables for the person who might want to track the car…the limited slip, the sports seats, suspension, the performance gearing, etc. All good stuff…but maybe a bit tedious on the cross-country touring/driver group?
The early cars have their charm and desirability too. MacReel and others have found a reliability level that’s enviable. They just drive and drive and drive….and enjoy and enjoy. A little dust on the car doesn’t send them into orbit. And 99% of the world probably could not tell a ’78 from ’95 at 10 feet.
The S4s, being the most plentiful, apparently have the largest user base…and are all great cars, as are the others….just with some differences. Taste may dictate some of the desirability. I have a wonderful ‘85S…with not a lot being found in better condition, inside or out…and I should be totally satisfied….but I also love the overall look (albeit minor) of the S4. The GTS is not yet within my reach and, for mostly practical reasons, may never be. I bought the ’94 968 because it’s a newer front engined Porsche that has some of the body style I like in the GTS…plus it’s more reliable with the shorter Tbelt, better belt retention design, etc. I just wish it had raw torque. Someday…a turbo addition may be the answer? There are some “small things” on my S4 that may eventually push me to an upgrade or two there…or sell the car as the low-miler it is, and just buy another with what I should have purchased in the first place. It has a 5-speed but no sport seats or LSD…two debatable items that some don’t like…but I do. It may be more cost efficient for me to just add these than buy another car. I bought it at a price that I can afford to do this and stay at current market value….if the market would just settle “up.” (Ain’t gonna happen). Decisions...decisions....
One dilemma I face is that I have three WONDERFUl examples of the front engined Pcar…and the Audi Tur’d’o daily driver….and not enough garage space. Plus, maintaining and licensing that many cars isn’t as much fun as concentrating on just “one.” I gotta sell something and there are none that I want to get rid of except the Audi TT…but the wife won’t let it go (proves it’s a chic car I guess). If I sell one, the $$ will go to upgrade whichever one I keep.
In any case, the one cloud hanging over the 928 horizon has to do with modern manufacturing technology and what it may do to the auto industry in general...and sports cars specifically. This has already happened in the manufacturing of guns and other mechanical mechanisms using modern CNC and robotics manufacuturing equipment that requires precise fitting. For those who are acquainted with Winchester Model 70s or Colt `1911s, it used to take a professional and very experienced gunsmith to get the fitting required for the highest reliability and accuracy. CNC machinery is changing that and newer guns are getting assembly line accuracy not available before and without great cost of having a "race pistol" built.
Surely this same phenomenon will happen in other fields, including the auto field. The Chinese and other countries will be acquiring the latest manufacturing equipment, training skilled (and cheaper) labor, obtaining good designs and engineers, better materials, and changing the face of the earth in what cars are driven. Don’t believe so? It's not here yet...but it's coming. Are you old enough to remember what “Made in Japan” used to mean? (cheap and totally unreliable crap!). Those days are long gone for Japanese quaility. It's troublesome that we’re starting to see the momentum built my Ford, GM, Chrysler start to falter (Greed for quick profits, lack of responsible vision, lack of agility in change,.etc. Another topic for someone else)
Where am I going with this? Frankly, we will continue to stick with our classic 928s and enjoy the heck out of them….and we’ll (I predict) start seeing Farrari, Lambo, high end Porsche wannabee competition showing up from various areas…..and very compelling designs, performance, etc. Take the Koenig (sic) or the Bugatti Veyon…great and expensive (low production) cars. I diverge...
What’s the car landscape going to be like when multiple companies start producing significant competition to the giant sports car manufacturers? I don’t know…but perhaps we’ll see a name brand company partner with the Chinese or another cheap labor country to produce “the ultimate sports car” at a fraction of the cost of today’s giants. It can happen. While Miata is not sweeping the world…it’s make very impressive inroads and we can count on them not slowing down....or others wanting a piece of that market niche. Also, the Audi R8 or similar renditions from other companies may (soon?) overtake the 911…and if the new manufacuturing/labor costs go way down somehow, somewhere….while increasing cost performance, and maintaining reasonable quality, there may be some compelling reasons to build an autobahn in other countries (US last?). I’m kinda joking on that last piece. Speed sells...just few places to use it.
My point, if you read this far, is simply that we have in the 928 a beautiful, affordable, high performance sports car…in all its model renditions. We can quibble over which is best (discussion is good) but the world of car-making is changing. How this will affect 928 prices, probably none of us know. However, let’s suppose for a moment…that Porsche (Heaven forbid!) were to partner with the Chinese to build the fastest, most awesome, 928-resembling car ever…only with many modern accoutrements…..and at a price that we’d rather pay than for a GTS….how many would jump? It may sound unpatriotic..but I’ll be one of the first to get on the waiting list. BTW, talking of patriotism…how many still own US cars? Didn't we once war with Germany, Italy, and Japan? Who's winning?
Gotta take my meds...
Keep on keeping on.
Harvey
Concerning OBs, '86.5S, vs S4s vs. the GTs…vs the GTS...and so on….Heinrich, BIGS, ROG100, Vilhuer and others make some good points in recent threads. At one point I was hung up on getting a GT (mostly for the 5-speed, limited slip, sport seats, and prestige). However, the more practical 928 in my mind (after listening to the discussion on this, may just be the later model S4 (great road gearing!! Along with some of the more modern updates that would be nice to have…but not really significant. The 5-speed, sports seats, limited slip, etc. would be requirements for me in the ultimate 928. If I lived in a large town, I’d want an automatic.
But really, all 928’s look nice and it’s the various features (mostly) which set them apart, the GTS being the top of the heap as it’s newest. The “best” 928 really varies from person to person and personal likes. And you can count on there always being a nicer color combination or "tempting deal" beaconing….
It’s pretty obvious that the diversity of opinion on which is the most desireable 928 will not be resolved on this list as there are so many variables. There will be disagreement because each of us has limitations/minimum requirements for our “most desirable” car, as well as how much we can afford to put into a “fun car.” (Notice: I did not say “invest.”) However, to read the various Rennlist opinions is educational. Discussing the pros/cons of each approach is helpful and, hopefully, can assist each of us in the choice of our next car or upgrades.
Frankly, the emotion (i.e., people getting POed) seems to center around 928 pricing discussions and the very mixed messages of the market's supply & demand. It's human nature to not want to see a car depreciate quickly, but the current 928 market is ambigous on the trend, at best. The ones who seem to be the most concerned are the GTS owners who stand to lose the most dollars if the market were to take a big dive. However, given the very limited numbers of GTSs, this may not be an issue. The larger issue would be the other new sports car offerings that are starting to become available for near-GTS prices.
Sports car dealers thrive in a couple of areas: 1) Each new model year is supposed to the grandest and greatest to that point. 2) You have the choice when buying a new car of ordering all the options you want for your “perfect car” even if you do have to tolerate depreciation the first few years. Buying anything else probably entails some compromise. If it weren't for depreciation, many of us wouldn't be driving 928. The guy I bought my Audi TT from purchased all the extras...paid more than $43K for the car, sold it two years later to me for about $20K...with only 20K miles on the clock. Ouch for him!!! But, the market for these cars is not on the rise and he wanted out. It hasn't depreciated a lot since I got it...but it won't be going up.
Sticking to sports cars, among Corvettes, there are a few years/models that stand out as “classics” and will hold collector value for some time. I have a dentist friend who collects ‘vettes and he can quote scripture and verse the pros/cons often accepted by serious collectors for each model year/option (even the value of an original oil sticker). And which cars have “losing” qualities. For drivers, the ‘vette guys just buy an old beater (which they end up improving) or a Z06 or newer model and garage their early cars. Different strokes...
Interestingly, among the more modern cars, the turboed Supra has gained quite a following. Check the prices on eBay for this discontinued “classic?” and you’ll see what I mean. There is a lesson to be learned here and a "new Supra" or clone should be forthcoming. It's a tempting performer...but the build quality is nowhere near Porsche.
As Vilhuer, Heinrich, Tdelarm, Shane, and many others have so cogently stated, there’s enough diversity among 928 cars and options to satisfy almost everyone….and which are best is like comparing blondes, brunettes, etc, Each model year and each option has its charm and attraction. And we can't have them all. Compromise.
GTSs probably shouldn’t even be a strong part of the discussion because there are so few of them made and the price/availability almost render them a dream for the masses. And, GTSs are not devoid of issues. I suspect, given the opportunity, we’d all have a special production GTS with full custom color leather, extra tanned cowhides, 12 qts of spare paint, burl wood, etc. sitting in our garages to lust. And we’d drive another 928 for the pleasure of it.
It really depends on what one is looking for. Shane perhaps has the soundest and most practical philosophy for SuperCharging an 86.5 and enjoying both the luxury and extraordinary power of the 928. With some important design improvements like PorKen and Dr. Ott are working on, the 928 indeed could take on a new life and be more widely recognized/desired. ROG100 must be counting on this!. The 928 is a great car and the sky is the limit on what can be done. A true driver car and perhaps the most cost-efficient very well could be the 85-85.6 supercharged?
The GT has desirables for the person who might want to track the car…the limited slip, the sports seats, suspension, the performance gearing, etc. All good stuff…but maybe a bit tedious on the cross-country touring/driver group?
The early cars have their charm and desirability too. MacReel and others have found a reliability level that’s enviable. They just drive and drive and drive….and enjoy and enjoy. A little dust on the car doesn’t send them into orbit. And 99% of the world probably could not tell a ’78 from ’95 at 10 feet.
The S4s, being the most plentiful, apparently have the largest user base…and are all great cars, as are the others….just with some differences. Taste may dictate some of the desirability. I have a wonderful ‘85S…with not a lot being found in better condition, inside or out…and I should be totally satisfied….but I also love the overall look (albeit minor) of the S4. The GTS is not yet within my reach and, for mostly practical reasons, may never be. I bought the ’94 968 because it’s a newer front engined Porsche that has some of the body style I like in the GTS…plus it’s more reliable with the shorter Tbelt, better belt retention design, etc. I just wish it had raw torque. Someday…a turbo addition may be the answer? There are some “small things” on my S4 that may eventually push me to an upgrade or two there…or sell the car as the low-miler it is, and just buy another with what I should have purchased in the first place. It has a 5-speed but no sport seats or LSD…two debatable items that some don’t like…but I do. It may be more cost efficient for me to just add these than buy another car. I bought it at a price that I can afford to do this and stay at current market value….if the market would just settle “up.” (Ain’t gonna happen). Decisions...decisions....
One dilemma I face is that I have three WONDERFUl examples of the front engined Pcar…and the Audi Tur’d’o daily driver….and not enough garage space. Plus, maintaining and licensing that many cars isn’t as much fun as concentrating on just “one.” I gotta sell something and there are none that I want to get rid of except the Audi TT…but the wife won’t let it go (proves it’s a chic car I guess). If I sell one, the $$ will go to upgrade whichever one I keep.
In any case, the one cloud hanging over the 928 horizon has to do with modern manufacturing technology and what it may do to the auto industry in general...and sports cars specifically. This has already happened in the manufacturing of guns and other mechanical mechanisms using modern CNC and robotics manufacuturing equipment that requires precise fitting. For those who are acquainted with Winchester Model 70s or Colt `1911s, it used to take a professional and very experienced gunsmith to get the fitting required for the highest reliability and accuracy. CNC machinery is changing that and newer guns are getting assembly line accuracy not available before and without great cost of having a "race pistol" built.
Surely this same phenomenon will happen in other fields, including the auto field. The Chinese and other countries will be acquiring the latest manufacturing equipment, training skilled (and cheaper) labor, obtaining good designs and engineers, better materials, and changing the face of the earth in what cars are driven. Don’t believe so? It's not here yet...but it's coming. Are you old enough to remember what “Made in Japan” used to mean? (cheap and totally unreliable crap!). Those days are long gone for Japanese quaility. It's troublesome that we’re starting to see the momentum built my Ford, GM, Chrysler start to falter (Greed for quick profits, lack of responsible vision, lack of agility in change,.etc. Another topic for someone else)
Where am I going with this? Frankly, we will continue to stick with our classic 928s and enjoy the heck out of them….and we’ll (I predict) start seeing Farrari, Lambo, high end Porsche wannabee competition showing up from various areas…..and very compelling designs, performance, etc. Take the Koenig (sic) or the Bugatti Veyon…great and expensive (low production) cars. I diverge...
What’s the car landscape going to be like when multiple companies start producing significant competition to the giant sports car manufacturers? I don’t know…but perhaps we’ll see a name brand company partner with the Chinese or another cheap labor country to produce “the ultimate sports car” at a fraction of the cost of today’s giants. It can happen. While Miata is not sweeping the world…it’s make very impressive inroads and we can count on them not slowing down....or others wanting a piece of that market niche. Also, the Audi R8 or similar renditions from other companies may (soon?) overtake the 911…and if the new manufacuturing/labor costs go way down somehow, somewhere….while increasing cost performance, and maintaining reasonable quality, there may be some compelling reasons to build an autobahn in other countries (US last?). I’m kinda joking on that last piece. Speed sells...just few places to use it.
My point, if you read this far, is simply that we have in the 928 a beautiful, affordable, high performance sports car…in all its model renditions. We can quibble over which is best (discussion is good) but the world of car-making is changing. How this will affect 928 prices, probably none of us know. However, let’s suppose for a moment…that Porsche (Heaven forbid!) were to partner with the Chinese to build the fastest, most awesome, 928-resembling car ever…only with many modern accoutrements…..and at a price that we’d rather pay than for a GTS….how many would jump? It may sound unpatriotic..but I’ll be one of the first to get on the waiting list. BTW, talking of patriotism…how many still own US cars? Didn't we once war with Germany, Italy, and Japan? Who's winning?
Gotta take my meds...
Keep on keeping on.
Harvey
03-07-2007, 06:26 PM
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Cor, what a missive
myself if I were starting again I would go for the last of the S2s
Simple 16v motor with the highest horsepower.
S4 running gear
does not have the weight and areodynamic penalties of the later cars
does not have the complex and failure prone electrics of the later cars
I suspect it has better build quality
Marton
myself if I were starting again I would go for the last of the S2s
Simple 16v motor with the highest horsepower.
S4 running gear
does not have the weight and areodynamic penalties of the later cars
does not have the complex and failure prone electrics of the later cars
I suspect it has better build quality
Marton
03-07-2007, 06:52 PM
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Stream of 928 unconsciousness....
Panzer, when I hit the John there's also a stream...some would compare to what I wrote while entranced with Darvon.
You know, Marton, I'm so far removed from S2s and the Euro 928s they didn't even occur to me. However, from what I've read, if one were to just choose a single 928 for life....and fix it the gills, that may be the best way to go. I've never looked at one (or had the chance) but always wondered about parts availabiliity in the USA. Performance and no moonroof have to count for a lot.
Heinrich, Since seeing your beautiful black '89S4, I've thought that would be a great car to "build to the hilt!" Truly a very scarce and desirable platform. And extraordinary condition. Right now, my head's spinning from the pain meds so bad I have to think 928 to keep from going crazy. Doc warned me to stay in bed, dang it. I need to finish tweeking my latest 928 before taking on another project...dang it.
I could have bought an '85S for what I spent just yesterday in three different hospitals on emergeny room and emergency surgery care...bone had to be removed to get to problem. Severe nosebleed in difficult to access location. I'd rather get my nosebleeds from going fast! I forgot to ask the surgeon what kind of car he drove. I'm not sure I'd want one touching me who drives a 'vette.
Harvey
You know, Marton, I'm so far removed from S2s and the Euro 928s they didn't even occur to me. However, from what I've read, if one were to just choose a single 928 for life....and fix it the gills, that may be the best way to go. I've never looked at one (or had the chance) but always wondered about parts availabiliity in the USA. Performance and no moonroof have to count for a lot.
Heinrich, Since seeing your beautiful black '89S4, I've thought that would be a great car to "build to the hilt!" Truly a very scarce and desirable platform. And extraordinary condition. Right now, my head's spinning from the pain meds so bad I have to think 928 to keep from going crazy. Doc warned me to stay in bed, dang it. I need to finish tweeking my latest 928 before taking on another project...dang it.
I could have bought an '85S for what I spent just yesterday in three different hospitals on emergeny room and emergency surgery care...bone had to be removed to get to problem. Severe nosebleed in difficult to access location. I'd rather get my nosebleeds from going fast! I forgot to ask the surgeon what kind of car he drove. I'm not sure I'd want one touching me who drives a 'vette.
Harvey
03-07-2007, 06:57 PM
#6
I need one of each, all of the variants have a wonderful charm, a local guy has a 78 with 28k miles and it is such a powerful statement of car design. Love them all. Mac
03-07-2007, 06:58 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by marton
myself if I were starting again I would go for the last of the S2s
Simple 16v motor with the highest horsepower.
S4 running gear
does not have the weight and areodynamic penalties of the later cars
does not have the complex and failure prone electrics of the later cars
I suspect it has better build quality
Marton
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03-07-2007, 10:10 PM
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Harv, you raise a couple of new points in your latest tome to which I'll respond.
But, first I'll respond to a recurrent theme I see in many of your posts: you are way too concerned with the resale value of your cars. Also, you get caught up in a left-brain right-brain debate about whether or not the car (any of them) are good enough. These two trains of thought go 'round and 'round in your head. It is stressing you out man! Either that, or your posts are a way to get the stress out of your head. If the latter then good! We'll be your stress absorption medium.
My uncle, a banker, used to buy a new car every year. I don't really know why. But, he had a new top-of-the-line Olds for himself and would give the 'old' car to his wife to drive for another year. Then one day, I noticed that his car was old - maybe four years - so I asked him what wassup wid dat? He told me that after all the years he had finally come to the conclusion that all cars were an expense! He always stressed about being upside-down, and depreciation and resale value, yada, yada. He came to realize that if you accepted the fact that cars were not an investment of any kind that you could actually enjoy them more.
I am fortunate in that I made such an opportunity. We have a GTS that we can love and pet and squeeze and hug. But, I also accept that if we're ever forced to sell it - or if (in)sanity strikes and we decide to sell it - that we may not get what we paid for it. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. Maybe someone who wants one of two Iris Blue GTS 5-speeds more than us will offer us a price we cannot refuse. Maybe. But, it doesn't keep me up at night. It will happen or not. And no amount of worrying is going to change that fact.
On to the new...
It has already happened. Not only in the mechanical design but in the electrical/software design and in 'design for manufacturability' and in 'design to a cost target.'
What does design for manufacturability mean? Well, what I see a lot of is the use of plastic fasteners rated for one (or two) insertions. Modern cars - and YES Porsche's now also - are snap-together. Try taking one apart and putting it back together with the same fasteners? You wonder why Corvettes are rattle traps after 50k or 100k miles? Because you cannot put them back together. (We own a Z06 so, I'm not uninformed on this...) Compare any of your 'old school' Porsches with a Boxster or 996 and you will find lots of snap-together stuff in the new ones. Not to mention that your 928 has real wool carpets while the new ones have carpet that's the same as any Toyota Camry. How does the switch gear feel in a new Porsche? Better than your 968?
If you ask me, 50% or more of the advances in technology as applied to cars have been directed at lowering cost and the result is a cheap car. If you want qualify manufacturing and a car that you can - if you want to - drive until metal fatigue sets in you will not find it outside of the super-high end.
Let's look at another phenomena: maintainability. Look at PET in the transmission section for your 928. What do you see? Lots of gears, and shafts, and cogs, and stuff that I don't know what it is (yet.) Now go look at the transmission section for a 2000 996. What do you see? ONE Part. The transmission. Porsche has decided that it is more cost-effective for Porsche that when a transmission breaks you get replace the whole thing. You cannot even order the part that broke. Are you surprised to hear that there are more than a few Cayman owners who are rather surprised to find out that when their second transmission grenades 100 miles out of warranty that they will get to drop a couple thou on a new transmission? Rebuild? Not an option. (The potential saving grace is that a few shops out there are preparing to reverse engineer the box and begin offering rebuilds. I'm sure it will be inexpensive too. NOT. They have to recoupe R&D costs.)
Another anecdote.... a friend of mine has a 2002 M5. He saved for years for it. It was his dream machine. He drives a 10 year-old Jetta as his DD. On his M5, a piece of trim around the navigation system broke. The dealer replaced the NAV system under warranty because the trim part was not a separate part they could order! So, what happens when the M5 goes out of warranty? He's not happy. His dream is shattered. At some point - if he *enjoys* his M5 - it's going to be more beat up than his Jetta 'cause he's not going to be able to pay $4k for every piece of trim.
And now let's move on to your haunting topic: depreciation. Looked at the curves for new Porsches lately? They drop like stones as compared to 'old school' Porsches. Check out prices for 993 Turbos versus 996 Turbos. My bet: in a few years beaten-to-crap 993 Turbos will be more expensive than lower-mileage 996 Turbos. The only modern car that I know of that hold value to any significant extent are the 355/360/430 Ferraris. (550s? 575s? Fagetaboutit...)
I'll see if I can bring this to a close...
What you get with an 'old school' Porsche - whether it be a 968, 993, 964, or 928 etc., - is a car that was designed by engineers that held the 'machine' as the goal of their efforts. It was consequently expensive to manufacture. But, you can - for the most part - take it apart and put it back together and maintain it potentially forever. Sure, you might have to drop several (or many) thousand dollars every year into it. And, no doubt, even for GTS owners more and more parts will become NLA. But, because the cars were not designed by engineers forced to hold 'cost' as the goal of their efforts while designing within the constraints of an all-powerful marketing focus, we will be able to keep these cars in top shape as long as we want to. (God bless'em, those engineers. They almost killed the company though.)
(Sure we bitch and moan about some stuff. But, I'd rather work on the 928 any day than the Z06. And the Z06 shop manuals are simply fabulous! But, you've got to be really, really, careful with those one-or-three time fasteners...)
On the other hand, we can buy $50k, or $100k, or $150k sports cars that will kill us with depreciation and will end up costing a lot more to keep in even presentable condition.
The same thing that happened last time 'round. An exogenous force will cause an environmental disruption and sports cars will all but die-out for a few years. Insurance killed muscle cars. The oil crises kept them dead and killed sports cars for a while too. Now, thanks to technology both are very much alive. But, something else will come along and kill them for a time again. My bet is on the 'safety' and 'speed kills' winers along with a good dose of carbon pollution and anti-oil campaigners and the plain simple folks that think anything over walking speed is unnecessarily fast. (Where's Gretch when I need him for a good phrase!)
Yup. But, not for the better for those of us that cannot afford - or are unwilling to afford - to turn over a $100k sports car every four years after twenty $4k trim pieces break.
And I, for one, don't care. I have come close in the last decade to buying a new Boxster, a new 996 C2, a new 996 C4S, and (as a potential tow vehicle for the '89) a Cayenne. I turned away because they were simply not as 'good' as my 928(s). Sure, faster, newer, flashier, blah, blah. But, not as good. Not as fulfilling. Not as pleasing. Not as maintainable. Not as unique. Not as fun. Not as great sounding. And last but not least, too much software behind proprietary closed interfaces that a DIY guy cannot touch. (Everything has to go to the dealer. Stick that in the 'cost pipe' and smoke it 
)
We do. A Z06 Corvette. And I say (and have said) a lot of good things about it. Given the modern 'goodness' of all cars to which I am able, presently, to aspire I see no reason to look at a new Porsche while the C6 Z06 exists. And since the 340 Mill went to someone else, I had to cancel the deposit on the real successor to the 928: the Ferrari 599 GTB. 
But, first I'll respond to a recurrent theme I see in many of your posts: you are way too concerned with the resale value of your cars. Also, you get caught up in a left-brain right-brain debate about whether or not the car (any of them) are good enough. These two trains of thought go 'round and 'round in your head. It is stressing you out man! Either that, or your posts are a way to get the stress out of your head. If the latter then good! We'll be your stress absorption medium.
My uncle, a banker, used to buy a new car every year. I don't really know why. But, he had a new top-of-the-line Olds for himself and would give the 'old' car to his wife to drive for another year. Then one day, I noticed that his car was old - maybe four years - so I asked him what wassup wid dat? He told me that after all the years he had finally come to the conclusion that all cars were an expense! He always stressed about being upside-down, and depreciation and resale value, yada, yada. He came to realize that if you accepted the fact that cars were not an investment of any kind that you could actually enjoy them more.
Originally Posted by H2
I suspect, given the opportunity, we’d all have a special production GTS with full custom color leather, extra tanned cowhides, 12 qts of spare paint, burl wood, etc. sitting in our garages to lust. And we’d drive another 928 for the pleasure of it.
On to the new...
In any case, the one cloud hanging over the 928 horizon has to do with modern manufacturing technology and what it may do to the auto industry in general...and sports cars specifically. This has already happened in the manufacturing of guns and other mechanical mechanisms using modern CNC and robotics manufacuturing equipment that requires precise fitting....
Surely this same phenomenon will happen in other fields, including the auto field.
Surely this same phenomenon will happen in other fields, including the auto field.
What does design for manufacturability mean? Well, what I see a lot of is the use of plastic fasteners rated for one (or two) insertions. Modern cars - and YES Porsche's now also - are snap-together. Try taking one apart and putting it back together with the same fasteners? You wonder why Corvettes are rattle traps after 50k or 100k miles? Because you cannot put them back together. (We own a Z06 so, I'm not uninformed on this...) Compare any of your 'old school' Porsches with a Boxster or 996 and you will find lots of snap-together stuff in the new ones. Not to mention that your 928 has real wool carpets while the new ones have carpet that's the same as any Toyota Camry. How does the switch gear feel in a new Porsche? Better than your 968?
If you ask me, 50% or more of the advances in technology as applied to cars have been directed at lowering cost and the result is a cheap car. If you want qualify manufacturing and a car that you can - if you want to - drive until metal fatigue sets in you will not find it outside of the super-high end.
Let's look at another phenomena: maintainability. Look at PET in the transmission section for your 928. What do you see? Lots of gears, and shafts, and cogs, and stuff that I don't know what it is (yet.) Now go look at the transmission section for a 2000 996. What do you see? ONE Part. The transmission. Porsche has decided that it is more cost-effective for Porsche that when a transmission breaks you get replace the whole thing. You cannot even order the part that broke. Are you surprised to hear that there are more than a few Cayman owners who are rather surprised to find out that when their second transmission grenades 100 miles out of warranty that they will get to drop a couple thou on a new transmission? Rebuild? Not an option. (The potential saving grace is that a few shops out there are preparing to reverse engineer the box and begin offering rebuilds. I'm sure it will be inexpensive too. NOT. They have to recoupe R&D costs.)
Another anecdote.... a friend of mine has a 2002 M5. He saved for years for it. It was his dream machine. He drives a 10 year-old Jetta as his DD. On his M5, a piece of trim around the navigation system broke. The dealer replaced the NAV system under warranty because the trim part was not a separate part they could order! So, what happens when the M5 goes out of warranty? He's not happy. His dream is shattered. At some point - if he *enjoys* his M5 - it's going to be more beat up than his Jetta 'cause he's not going to be able to pay $4k for every piece of trim.
And now let's move on to your haunting topic: depreciation. Looked at the curves for new Porsches lately? They drop like stones as compared to 'old school' Porsches. Check out prices for 993 Turbos versus 996 Turbos. My bet: in a few years beaten-to-crap 993 Turbos will be more expensive than lower-mileage 996 Turbos. The only modern car that I know of that hold value to any significant extent are the 355/360/430 Ferraris. (550s? 575s? Fagetaboutit...)
I'll see if I can bring this to a close...
What you get with an 'old school' Porsche - whether it be a 968, 993, 964, or 928 etc., - is a car that was designed by engineers that held the 'machine' as the goal of their efforts. It was consequently expensive to manufacture. But, you can - for the most part - take it apart and put it back together and maintain it potentially forever. Sure, you might have to drop several (or many) thousand dollars every year into it. And, no doubt, even for GTS owners more and more parts will become NLA. But, because the cars were not designed by engineers forced to hold 'cost' as the goal of their efforts while designing within the constraints of an all-powerful marketing focus, we will be able to keep these cars in top shape as long as we want to. (God bless'em, those engineers. They almost killed the company though.)
(Sure we bitch and moan about some stuff. But, I'd rather work on the 928 any day than the Z06. And the Z06 shop manuals are simply fabulous! But, you've got to be really, really, careful with those one-or-three time fasteners...)
On the other hand, we can buy $50k, or $100k, or $150k sports cars that will kill us with depreciation and will end up costing a lot more to keep in even presentable condition.
What’s the car landscape going to be like when multiple companies start producing significant competition to the giant sports car manufacturers?
My point, if you read this far, is simply that we have in the 928 a beautiful, affordable, high performance sports car…in all its model renditions. We can quibble over which is best (discussion is good) but the world of car-making is changing.
How this will affect 928 prices, probably none of us know.
)
BTW, talking of patriotism…how many still own US cars?
Last edited by worf928; 03-08-2007 at 05:19 PM.
03-08-2007, 02:28 AM
#10
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Worf928,
It's refreshing to read "more than a sound bite" response to my confused supplication for some sense to the 928 puzzlee and how it fits into the changing automotive world. You've put this whole thing into a perspective that makes a lot of sense. Thanks, I'm printing your comments off and will be reading them from time to time.
Yes...the Pcars are stress releivers for me as I have a high stress job. I need to clear the cobwebs out of my head from time to time...and pondering all this helps. you've obviously given this a lot of thought. I also have thoughts, but I need lots of corrective guidance and informed perspective is more valuable than many of the things we read today. I'm pretty bummed out by most car mags today since they appeal a different audience that the 928er. I subscribe to 911 mags because they're about as close as I can get to a 928 dialogue. The closest thing I can seem to find for a 928 mag is Rennlist. People gripe about long posts...but fotos and a few short remarks don't do it for me. However, the How To Resolve Mechanical Issues is invaluable and a key part of what keeps these wonderful cars alive.
It is a different experience for me since I've always made money on my street rod builds and antique car purchases/restorations. Without fail. Then I come across the best car ever (It was love at first sight...I bought the first 928 I ever got within 10 feet of) I find that they really aren't a financial investment but rather a different kind of investment in stress relief and pleasure not often found in other cars I've had. It's taken me a while to come around to this realization. But I still have much to learn about 928 ownership. That's part of the attraction.
I hadn't given the build quality/ease of maintenance issues much thought until I read your notes and this helped put things into a sensical perspective. I think you're right that we'll see glitzier/fancier/faster cars that will be tempting but the build quality for the mass produced cars may not be there....since the bottom line still seems to be the driving force behing auto making. It's a shame. Even Porsche seems to be making some controversial changes...but it's certainly paying off financially...so far anyway. What you mention about maintainability of the new Pcars is troubling though.
I still marvel at the great build quality of some of the cars of the '30s....even the Cads, Olds, Buicks, Nashs, etc. were well thought out and still nice to own. The Cords and Lincolns and similar cars were masterpieces...and very impressive even today. BTW, my son's father in law (decendent of Cord) just bought a complete Cord car (mid 30's) partially restored but mostly disassembled, for $3000!).
I'm adjusting to 928s and the reality that I'd better like the cars a lot because I'm going to get upside down quickly and stay there...and I might as well let loose and enjoy them. Something along the lines of "quality of life vs quantity..." That will mean choosing a fun car as a daily driver and seeing it get beat to hell in the parking lot at work. I hate the thought and I've got to get over the "first dent" if I'm going to relax and enjoy. I'll keep a garage queen though. Just need a larger garage. I seem to accumulate cars...not sell.
A fellow who works for me has an M5 and he's been telling me about the relative costs of maintaining it vs the 928. It cost him $365 recently for a trans oil change...proprietary oil apparently. He also has an M3, '07 'vette, and two Formula cars....none of which are picking up value...but the tropheys in his living room are worth a lot to him. I'm too old to take up racing seriously, so I just want to drive a great car.
You mentioned some Farraris that sound interesting. I'm not buying...but I would like to study them.
There are a lot of interesting cars "out there" and only so many that we can spend time with. I saw a '28 Ford today that brought back good memories...but the manifold heater doesn't do it for Idaho. And a Rolls listed for $25K....and cars i know nothing about. However, the 928 seems to be the "undiscovered car of choice."
At any rate, rather than risk getting banned for writing more than a few sentences, I'm going to sign off and take some meds. If I feel better tomorrow, I can go do what I enjoy most....wrenching on my cars. I'm really enjoying the '88S4....each year car is so interesting. I can't wait until better weather...oh wait...I should choose a sacrifical car and DRIVE IT!
Again, thanks for sharing your 928 insight in your notes. I'm sure that most 928ers are interested to hear these things. Good luck.
I'll look at my Pcars with different eyes now.
BTW, I have an AMERICAN Chevy 4WD. I think they're the best...but my bro in law likes the Dodges....then there are the Fords.... It's changing in Africa too. At one time the Land Rover ruled....no more. It's now Toyota Land Cruisers. Change...change....change...it's gonna happen.
Harvey
Paranoid in Idaho...but trying to recover
It's refreshing to read "more than a sound bite" response to my confused supplication for some sense to the 928 puzzlee and how it fits into the changing automotive world. You've put this whole thing into a perspective that makes a lot of sense. Thanks, I'm printing your comments off and will be reading them from time to time.
Yes...the Pcars are stress releivers for me as I have a high stress job. I need to clear the cobwebs out of my head from time to time...and pondering all this helps. you've obviously given this a lot of thought. I also have thoughts, but I need lots of corrective guidance and informed perspective is more valuable than many of the things we read today. I'm pretty bummed out by most car mags today since they appeal a different audience that the 928er. I subscribe to 911 mags because they're about as close as I can get to a 928 dialogue. The closest thing I can seem to find for a 928 mag is Rennlist. People gripe about long posts...but fotos and a few short remarks don't do it for me. However, the How To Resolve Mechanical Issues is invaluable and a key part of what keeps these wonderful cars alive.
It is a different experience for me since I've always made money on my street rod builds and antique car purchases/restorations. Without fail. Then I come across the best car ever (It was love at first sight...I bought the first 928 I ever got within 10 feet of) I find that they really aren't a financial investment but rather a different kind of investment in stress relief and pleasure not often found in other cars I've had. It's taken me a while to come around to this realization. But I still have much to learn about 928 ownership. That's part of the attraction.
I hadn't given the build quality/ease of maintenance issues much thought until I read your notes and this helped put things into a sensical perspective. I think you're right that we'll see glitzier/fancier/faster cars that will be tempting but the build quality for the mass produced cars may not be there....since the bottom line still seems to be the driving force behing auto making. It's a shame. Even Porsche seems to be making some controversial changes...but it's certainly paying off financially...so far anyway. What you mention about maintainability of the new Pcars is troubling though.
I still marvel at the great build quality of some of the cars of the '30s....even the Cads, Olds, Buicks, Nashs, etc. were well thought out and still nice to own. The Cords and Lincolns and similar cars were masterpieces...and very impressive even today. BTW, my son's father in law (decendent of Cord) just bought a complete Cord car (mid 30's) partially restored but mostly disassembled, for $3000!).
I'm adjusting to 928s and the reality that I'd better like the cars a lot because I'm going to get upside down quickly and stay there...and I might as well let loose and enjoy them. Something along the lines of "quality of life vs quantity..." That will mean choosing a fun car as a daily driver and seeing it get beat to hell in the parking lot at work. I hate the thought and I've got to get over the "first dent" if I'm going to relax and enjoy. I'll keep a garage queen though. Just need a larger garage. I seem to accumulate cars...not sell.
A fellow who works for me has an M5 and he's been telling me about the relative costs of maintaining it vs the 928. It cost him $365 recently for a trans oil change...proprietary oil apparently. He also has an M3, '07 'vette, and two Formula cars....none of which are picking up value...but the tropheys in his living room are worth a lot to him. I'm too old to take up racing seriously, so I just want to drive a great car.
You mentioned some Farraris that sound interesting. I'm not buying...but I would like to study them.
There are a lot of interesting cars "out there" and only so many that we can spend time with. I saw a '28 Ford today that brought back good memories...but the manifold heater doesn't do it for Idaho. And a Rolls listed for $25K....and cars i know nothing about. However, the 928 seems to be the "undiscovered car of choice."
At any rate, rather than risk getting banned for writing more than a few sentences, I'm going to sign off and take some meds. If I feel better tomorrow, I can go do what I enjoy most....wrenching on my cars. I'm really enjoying the '88S4....each year car is so interesting. I can't wait until better weather...oh wait...I should choose a sacrifical car and DRIVE IT!
Again, thanks for sharing your 928 insight in your notes. I'm sure that most 928ers are interested to hear these things. Good luck.
I'll look at my Pcars with different eyes now.
BTW, I have an AMERICAN Chevy 4WD. I think they're the best...but my bro in law likes the Dodges....then there are the Fords.... It's changing in Africa too. At one time the Land Rover ruled....no more. It's now Toyota Land Cruisers. Change...change....change...it's gonna happen.
Harvey
Paranoid in Idaho...but trying to recover
Last edited by H2; 03-08-2007 at 02:45 AM.
03-08-2007, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by H2
Panzer, when I hit the John there's also a stream...some would compare to what I wrote while entranced with Darvon.
03-08-2007, 09:02 AM
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Wow! I sure am glad my fingers begin to cramp up after about 3 sentences of typing. Lots of good point up there, but many are based on individual values. I like my car; I like working on it; don't plan on selling it, so it's perfect for me today.
Fingers stratingto krmp uppppppppppp..................
Fingers stratingto krmp uppppppppppp..................
03-08-2007, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NeverLateInMyNineTwoEight
Wow.
Let me know when the Cliff Notes version is available.
Ed
Let me know when the Cliff Notes version is available.
Ed
03-08-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ball
Darvon? Is that crap still around? It was already regarded as useless when I was in Rx school in the early 70s.
This is a great thread!!!!!
Originally Posted by worf928
Harv, you raise a couple of new points in your latest tome to which I'll respond.
...
...
From my lowly perspective in a company that is a supplier and sub-supplier to many big-league automotive OEMs, I see the plug-n-play modular "system-is-a-single-part-#" practice increasing. We make grilles, so for example if you catch a bird through the mesh center of your Dodge Ram truck grill you can't buy just the mesh, you have to buy the whole grille from the OEM because neither they nor my company wants the huge resource burden of having all the little components as saleable, packaged, paper-worked, inventoried, billed for, accounted for, tracked, etc, etc, etc... items in our systems which are already complicated enough! It's just not feasible. Some of our customers supply the OEM's assembly line with their front fascia completely assembled with our grille, some other Tier II company's headlights, turn signals, etc - now that's an expensive single part.
The other day, my dear wife remarked upon the time when I actually had a 928. She said, "You had a lot of fun working on that car."
I think that at this point in time, and for some time to come, these are great cars for those who share the following characteristics:
1) Like comfy, powerful, long-legged GT cruisers with sweet steering and great handling.
2) Like to perform their own work on complicated yet well-designed mechanical marvels.
I still plan to get anther one someday. I've got some more pressing needs at this time (bigger house, etc) but it's high up on my list of things to do.
If I get to the point where my fun-car fund is ripe for a 928, and there's a huge selection of insanely great used sports cars to choose from ($20K Caymans, coming soon!), I will certainly have a lot of test-driving to do. But I will be comparing everything to the 928, not just fun but also self-serviceability and aftermarket support.
