Showing a little S4 Twin Turbo "Leg"...
08-13-2006, 11:36 PM
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Showing a little S4 Twin Turbo "Leg"...
Here are some shots of the newly emerging Twin Turbo 928 S4 engine build. Perhaps one of you who is slightly more computer literate can get these into the thread for me...
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1936.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1937.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1938.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1939.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1940.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1941.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1942.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1945.jpg
As you can see, each turbo is located at the back of the cylinder bank...this allows for a more streamlined manifold design as compared to the other systems I have created...additionally it allows for better turbocharger draining. Another nice thing about this mounting is allowing ambient airflow to either side. The turbo is designed to be mounted close to the head...this way it takes full advantage of the heat in the exhuast. Consider the exhaust will lose 400 F from the heads to the tailpipe. It is heat and pressure that drives the turbine...more of each means more energy to power your compressors! The result is crisp and strong boost response, when you ask for it.
These units are Garretts...small frame size, but BIG on flow. The compressors will outflow any K-26 and most K-27 turbos. The cartridges on these are ball bearing. Hotsides are 9 bladed high flow wheels...small but mighty! These hotsides will flow as much as a T3 Stage 3 turbine wheel but fit into very tight spots. They are the latest in turbine technology! Used by many of the big name tuners to power levels of 700+ HP... exactly as you see them here.
As seen the turbos sit at about a 10 degree angle...getting the fit on the car is an iterative process that took many, many hours (that is hours with an "S")... You can see the heads and turbos are primed with 1/2" water-jet cut flanges and are ready for fabrication...connect the dots if you will...that is where the fun begins. Getting the 3-bolt head flanges perfect is also a bit of a task...you have to triangulate the pattern to get it just right. It also took many hours!
The driver's side would best be described as a "honeymoon-fit" (or at least what a honeymoon fit used to be)
Surprisingly these guys fit up in there quite nicely and I'd lay my money down now that they will be easier to install than a set of headers!
As can be seen there are going to be two massive air to air intercoolers. These are bar and plate units, a whopping 4.5" thick, 10" wide and 8" tall. Stick those dims in and you will see these are good for close to 400 HP each. Bulletproof, maintenance-free intercooling.
Lots of overhead being built into this system on all fronts...all the hardware will be capable of levels to over 700 HP...but I'll need a better bottom end before it will ever be there. 550 HP...now we're talking!
My Shark Tuner is making good use of my new dining room table...it too is anxious.
I'm expecting super boost response with a nice flat and wide torque curve on the engine. The goal is to break 500 WHP on less than 10 psig of manifold pressure...with well over 500 ft-lbs of torque at the same boost level or less. After seeing what the Triple-T did on just 8 psig with crappy 1979 vintage IHIs, I am confident this system will deliver big numbers and jaw dropping performance.
The moon, sun and stars are falling in line.
Stay tuned...
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1936.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1937.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1938.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1939.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1940.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1941.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1942.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_1945.jpg
As you can see, each turbo is located at the back of the cylinder bank...this allows for a more streamlined manifold design as compared to the other systems I have created...additionally it allows for better turbocharger draining. Another nice thing about this mounting is allowing ambient airflow to either side. The turbo is designed to be mounted close to the head...this way it takes full advantage of the heat in the exhuast. Consider the exhaust will lose 400 F from the heads to the tailpipe. It is heat and pressure that drives the turbine...more of each means more energy to power your compressors! The result is crisp and strong boost response, when you ask for it.
These units are Garretts...small frame size, but BIG on flow. The compressors will outflow any K-26 and most K-27 turbos. The cartridges on these are ball bearing. Hotsides are 9 bladed high flow wheels...small but mighty! These hotsides will flow as much as a T3 Stage 3 turbine wheel but fit into very tight spots. They are the latest in turbine technology! Used by many of the big name tuners to power levels of 700+ HP... exactly as you see them here.
As seen the turbos sit at about a 10 degree angle...getting the fit on the car is an iterative process that took many, many hours (that is hours with an "S")... You can see the heads and turbos are primed with 1/2" water-jet cut flanges and are ready for fabrication...connect the dots if you will...that is where the fun begins. Getting the 3-bolt head flanges perfect is also a bit of a task...you have to triangulate the pattern to get it just right. It also took many hours!
The driver's side would best be described as a "honeymoon-fit" (or at least what a honeymoon fit used to be)
Surprisingly these guys fit up in there quite nicely and I'd lay my money down now that they will be easier to install than a set of headers!As can be seen there are going to be two massive air to air intercoolers. These are bar and plate units, a whopping 4.5" thick, 10" wide and 8" tall. Stick those dims in and you will see these are good for close to 400 HP each. Bulletproof, maintenance-free intercooling.
Lots of overhead being built into this system on all fronts...all the hardware will be capable of levels to over 700 HP...but I'll need a better bottom end before it will ever be there. 550 HP...now we're talking!
My Shark Tuner is making good use of my new dining room table...it too is anxious.
I'm expecting super boost response with a nice flat and wide torque curve on the engine. The goal is to break 500 WHP on less than 10 psig of manifold pressure...with well over 500 ft-lbs of torque at the same boost level or less. After seeing what the Triple-T did on just 8 psig with crappy 1979 vintage IHIs, I am confident this system will deliver big numbers and jaw dropping performance.
The moon, sun and stars are falling in line.
Stay tuned...
08-13-2006, 11:41 PM
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Sorry, couldn't resist - looks awesome!
08-13-2006, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn
Matt...you like these turbos? K-27 Killers!
08-14-2006, 12:01 AM
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The 3K line is a dinosaur compared to the new Garretts. There is a conversion kit for these turbos to bolt them in place of 3K installations. Also, there is not a more compact and powerful turbo available from any manufacturer. Space is at a premium...a set of K-27s would not be able to go where I have these units.
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Any idea of when you will be done?
08-14-2006, 03:37 AM
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Burning Brakes
Almost look like a GT30 or a 60-1 Hifi from the outside! The new cartridge setups they have out now are pretty sweet though!
My S4 is too slow; I'll be watching this thread....
My S4 is too slow; I'll be watching this thread....
08-14-2006, 01:28 PM
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I'm working on this project with the goal of a swift implementation! I estimate 6 to 8 weeks until she is up and going!
I talked with a lot of poeple on the angling of the turbos. Garrett's spec is +/- 10 degrees. People have done more, I have seen reputable installations to 15 degrees, perhaps even more. I was told to not exceed 15 degrees, this was directly from an Engineer at Garrett. On center cartridge rotation you can go 30 degrees in either direction and not have drain issues. Many people say no angling at all...this is why I went direct to Garrett to get the straight answer. You see it is like buying pool supplies...the kids at the store really don't even know what the chemicals do...it is always best to talk with someone who can give it to you straight.
These units are big on flow and reasonable on size. Consider this system will deliver full boost pressures by 3,300 or so RPM (depending on load). and hold all the way out to redline. Sorry, but I'm not going to give out any turbo models or specs on here...some things are best left under wraps. I've let you all see too much already!!!! I will say that Mr. Lingenfelter has used a lot of these units and made serious power numbers with them.
This project is a tough one...the 16V experience is paying off big-time. Actually, this project will be a little easier than the 16V setups I have made. It is knowing where to go and what to do and only experience gains you that. There is so much more potential with this system it isn't even funny. I've toyed with the idea of going back and doing a "modern" 16V setup with this turbo technology...but probably not because people just won't spend the $ to do it on a 16V.
I talked with a lot of poeple on the angling of the turbos. Garrett's spec is +/- 10 degrees. People have done more, I have seen reputable installations to 15 degrees, perhaps even more. I was told to not exceed 15 degrees, this was directly from an Engineer at Garrett. On center cartridge rotation you can go 30 degrees in either direction and not have drain issues. Many people say no angling at all...this is why I went direct to Garrett to get the straight answer. You see it is like buying pool supplies...the kids at the store really don't even know what the chemicals do...it is always best to talk with someone who can give it to you straight.
These units are big on flow and reasonable on size. Consider this system will deliver full boost pressures by 3,300 or so RPM (depending on load). and hold all the way out to redline. Sorry, but I'm not going to give out any turbo models or specs on here...some things are best left under wraps. I've let you all see too much already!!!! I will say that Mr. Lingenfelter has used a lot of these units and made serious power numbers with them.
This project is a tough one...the 16V experience is paying off big-time. Actually, this project will be a little easier than the 16V setups I have made. It is knowing where to go and what to do and only experience gains you that. There is so much more potential with this system it isn't even funny. I've toyed with the idea of going back and doing a "modern" 16V setup with this turbo technology...but probably not because people just won't spend the $ to do it on a 16V.
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08-14-2006, 03:24 PM
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I know you know what you are doing, and assume you did like I did, hours and hours under the car, but are you sure that DS trubo is going to fit ??
On my low and back TT build (SS headers) I barely got the tubes past the steering arm.
I also had major problems getting the tubing set up for air in and air out.
If you build a tight set of weld el manifolds it would probably be easier to snake the plumbing around.
On my last build with a single i used weld els. Heavier, but very stout and robust, 1/8" steel wall and very easy to weld. They also make them in SS, but weld els in SS are something like $30 each. The carbon steel variety are pretty cheap.
On my low and back TT build (SS headers) I barely got the tubes past the steering arm.
I also had major problems getting the tubing set up for air in and air out.
If you build a tight set of weld el manifolds it would probably be easier to snake the plumbing around.
On my last build with a single i used weld els. Heavier, but very stout and robust, 1/8" steel wall and very easy to weld. They also make them in SS, but weld els in SS are something like $30 each. The carbon steel variety are pretty cheap.
08-14-2006, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tammons
I know you know what you are doing, and assume you did like I did, hours and hours under the car, but are you sure that DS trubo is going to fit ??
On my low and back TT build (SS headers) I barely got the tubes past the steering arm.
I also had major problems getting the tubing set up for air in and air out.
If you build a tight set of weld el manifolds it would probably be easier to snake the plumbing around.
On my last build with a single i used weld els. Heavier, but very stout and robust, 1/8" steel wall and very easy to weld. They also make them in SS, but weld els in SS are something like $30 each. The carbon steel variety are pretty cheap.
On my low and back TT build (SS headers) I barely got the tubes past the steering arm.
I also had major problems getting the tubing set up for air in and air out.
If you build a tight set of weld el manifolds it would probably be easier to snake the plumbing around.
On my last build with a single i used weld els. Heavier, but very stout and robust, 1/8" steel wall and very easy to weld. They also make them in SS, but weld els in SS are something like $30 each. The carbon steel variety are pretty cheap.
Nice work by the way!
