RyanPerrella

I am going off 200K miles which is what their mechanics in the shop so proudly proclaimed the service life to be

So 200,000 miles is not my figure, its the sellers.

RyanPerrella

again,

you can come up with any number of formulas to calculate this and that, ive heard them all honestly. I dont think you understand the mistrust i have with this company over their misrepresentation of the engine. Regardless of mileage if it had 10,000 more miles then what they told me they misrepresented what they sold me, simple as that. Thats my issue, what i am seeking return on is a re-evaluation of the engine plus something for for their misrepresentation. When a company makes a mistake like that, they need to be held accountable. I dont think your taking that into account.

dr bob

Ryan--

Try the compression and leakdown tests and make a decision based on those results. If the numbers are good, you aren't harmed by the transaction. If the numbers are really low or uneven/out of range, then decide what to do.

Many moons ago, I watched a guy argue that the engine in his Fiero GT should be replaced with new after a quick-lube place ran it out the door without an oil filter installed. Arbitration board said that a replacement used engine with similar miles would be fine. Customer continued to argue for a factory new crate motor. Arbitration allowed a straight-line depreciation formula, based on a 100k expected life on the engine. With over 80k on the guy's car, the shop willingly agreed to pay less than 20% of the cost of a new replacement, installed. The owner's 80% dramatically exceeded the market value of his car, though. Who won?


California repair shops are regulated by the Bureau of Automotive Repair, a division of the Department of Consumer Affairs in Sact'o. Your complaint route is through them. Because the 928 is a specialty car with little real statistical data on engine life expectancy, building a case that suggests that the additional miles on the engine cost you a specific amount of money will be tough. Arbitration will bring you a best-guess from a panel of business and consumer representatives, and the awarded value will be discounted because of the time it will take for you to realize the difference. For example, you might suggest that a normal life expectancy for the engine would be 200k miles. The age of your car and the age of the engine you bought both point to a use of about 8k miles per year, so you have at least 4 years to go before you would have to do some major repair that would otherwise have waited until 8 years to be statistically due. So your award would be the present value of a potential loss four years from now. It won't be very much cash.

Following the straight-line method, you might argue that you are immediately "losing" about 30% of the expected life of the motor you bought. Again, you need to come up with a valid life expectancy for the engine to get this number right, because you are really buying the "remaining life" of the motor, and the 40k difference would be figured against that typical life expectancy number. Using your argument that a 170k moter deserves a lot of mechanical refurb, you could easily argue yourself into the position where you are really negotiating for how much you think the seller should pay you to remove the motor so you can ship it back to them for a refund of your purchase price.

Another alternative is that the seller might decide to extend you a limited warranty regarding compression/leakdown. If within X miles or X years, whichever is less, the compression and leakdown numbers deteriorate by some mutually agreeable value, they will give you XX dollars at that time in compensation. That way you don't have to fight it out. You also get to drive the car.


Unfortunately, running GT engines with history are getting harder to find. If you decide to send that engine back, make sure you can find a replacement. I guess your fallback is always a bit of head and valve work on the original motor, and get that back in the car. But that eliminates the possibility of selling the 'core' to offset some of the expense of the 'new' engine.

Tough decisions!

Go ride in another GT and decide whether yours really is a little down on performance. Get it dyno'd for definitive answer, and compare your numbers with other stock GT's to get a feel for where your car stands. If it really is behind a typical curve on HP/TQ, and the compression/leakdown values come up a little weak, you have a pretty good argument for some kind of settlement, in my opinion.

Remember that I'm not a lawyer, don't play one here or on TV, and don't have the stomach or liver for it.

RyanPerrella

again, regardless of life expectancy, I would not have even entertained the thought of purchasing such a high mileage engine had i known the true mileage.

I think the question, maybe should be restated, would you put a 170,000 mile engine in your car?

I do agree that it definately has value in parts, and for the time being it does function and does run. But the fact remains, that they didnt disclose the true mileage, and it wasnt from me not asking, they lied about the mileage. I mentioned to them that they should never have sold the damn thing in the first place and used it to make a 20K stroker and make their money that way.

DANdeMAN

This is exactly what is wrong with that transaction...this is what I would have done to "Foget about it, I'll rebuilt the one I have instead!" would have been my answer...

If my 84 had 165k instead of the 125k when I got it, I would not have purchased it!!!


Ryan, Fight for it. It is not what you payed for!!!

DFWX

In defense of the seller, from what I have read, in terms of lack of communication, those who sell online recieved dozens to hundreds of phone calls and emails for any one sale. Price quotes for orders never placed, endless questions for free tech advise - often explaining the same thing to the same person 5 times - and usually they could have read of the answer - and somewhere in that all, eventually, is the occasional sale.
Every day starts with waves of emails and phone calls. Not from customers, but from inquiries. It grinds a person down, it really does.
If there is a problem order - regardless of fault - coming in the form of angry emails or phone calls, quikcly no one wants to deal with it for emotional, not business reasons.
Just like people safe in their cars leading then to road rage, there also is Internet rage in which people send intensely hateful and accusatory emails from the other side of their computer screen, as well as the other end of a telephone.
A removed motor marketed as in good condition with 125 or 135K miles on it actually having 175K after research and problems found in it is not partucularly suprising. If no warranty given, generally "buyer beware" applies as to all used merchandise, even if the seller said "it's great!"
If a seller tells you a used car runs and drives wonderfully, but gives no warranty, even if a piece of junk you have no claim. The law recognizes that as "salesmanship" and "buyer beware" applies.

Deliberate and exact misrepresentation is actionable.
A curiousity question is did you obtain the documentation of the mileage difference from them, or did you later discover it on your own or through some tipster? If through them, it certainly would be difficult to establish deliberate fraud. Did they just not check carefully? Did someone on the phone say 125K miles as their best recollection? If you learned from someone else, did the seller know?

A good example - in a sense - might be someone selling used tires, declaring "those tires have 22,000 miles on them, so are worn but have some life left." Later, you learn they really had 27,000 miles on them, the sidewalls are cracking and they nearly down to the wear bar. Do you really have a lawsuit?

From what you wrote, I do not believe the seller is "evil". Evil would have been to just pocket the $$ and give you a slient FU thereafter. Nor did they sell you a blown motor or one with bent up push rods. 928 motors can last hundreds of thousands of miles, but in fact at 125K most are fairly worn. It does not sound like the set out to do a fraud, but rather became a bit over the top on the sales pitch.

If you start hiring lawyers, it just becomes a costly hate battle and little more, yielding no return.

I'd try to negotiate a deal, probably some sort of mechandise for credit thing. Probably that is the best you can get that actually yields anything. Your "stick" probably is not a lawsuit, but rather to bad mouth them for months on Rennlist - which the moderator should allow some angry consumer comments but also draw some line on accusations and just hate emails. Maybe they'll give you some stuff you could then sell on ebay or Rennlist, and apply that towards a good rebuiid. You'd be out more money, but you'd then have an awesome motor.
Besides, who ever stays on budget for any 928 project, let alone a motor project?

The semi-defense offered for the seller is an understanding how among waves of communications, no one wanted to take the angry calls and emails of a difficult problem. It likely had little to do with you specifically, but more an overall email and telephone fatigue factor. ANyone who does Internet and mail order sales knows what I am writing about.

Lastly, there is a point that an impass is reached. A customer wants a full refund or even more and the seller does not agree. At some point, communications become pointless exchanges.

Here's an example. Among our products we sell are pool chemicals. Though very rare, we'll get a phone call from someone claiming their pump went out after putting in our product and they want a full refund and for us to buy them a new pump. As our product could not possibly damage a pump, our answer is "sorry, no refund and we won't buy you a pump."
But their pool maintenance man insists it must have been our chemicals, which the customer completely believes. We know absolutely they could not have.
How many angry phone calls and emails do you respond to after "no"? One person threatened to call every morning and night, to complain to everyone including the BBB and even had a lawyer sending us letters.
Didn't change our "no", we stopped picking up those calls (caller ID) and stopped responding to (or even opening) emails. Our tiny staff all understand they have permission to hang up on anyone who becomes threatening or abusive - though must be understanding and polite until it reaches the breaking point.

So you have a decision on the motor, no? Do you want to give a lawyer a retainer for litigation over a used motor purchase? That might be your only resort. It sounds like in terms of time and money, there is no gain to be made. Courts are only about money - forget about "making a point" because no one is listening in court about your moral fury. Its just about money and often the time and costs of litigation can not justify the possible benefit of a judgment - months or years from now.

Every one has a right to be angry. Nothing of this disturbs your right to be furious over this. That is an individual decision.

If your budget allows (and it may not), I'd have the motor checked out and shop around for an estimate to make it right. If that goal is to bring it back to the condition of a 125K mile motor, it might not cost that much. A full rebuild including bearings, rings, valve job, guides, etc etc? You had not bought those things. Even if it had the condition and mileage you were told, 5 miles downt he road that could have changed anyway. Motors are like that.

Lastly, cars do reach a point of no return - meaning time to scape them or sell them to the next dreamer. Usually that stage in a car's life comes very suddenly anway. Without exaggeration, I have puled the plates off at least a dozen cars of mine and just left them on the highway, and for at least half a dozen cars just called a salvage yard telling them its theirs if they'll come get it.

Regardless of who or why or fault, your 928 might have gone outside of your budget priorities.

Mark

DFWX

How much did you pay? That is a relevant question to the issue.

pmotts

$5000

"Well I paid $5,000 for what I was told was a strong 130,000 mile engine."

DFWX

The other comment... I can honestly say that every 928 I bought with one exception was less than it was represented to be (Ebay buys) and had many evident problems never mentioned. The exception was Tammon's car - acknowledging all sorts of problems and a very long list of them.
Still, I never got a bad deal and was pleased with the purchase anyway and never saw the seller as a crook or liar.
You also might be premature in motor issues until you check out the problem. Low compression in a cylinder might only require a valve being reground and seated. Oil leakage ranges from major to trivial.
A compression check before installation would have been a reasonable action to take. From what I read, you do not really know how much of a problem you do - or don't - have.

RyanPerrella

I believe it was posted before but the price they wanted was $5,000 coming from DEVEK, no sense in not naming them at this point, I didnt bother to haggle with them as I had previous to my own experience been told and read that they were a well respected company and I wouldnt dare question.

As for your theory of mileage being misquoted due to phone calls and blah blah blah, thats not true. I learned about this engine when i went up there to pick up the car that I had purchased the day before. I had not inquiried about an engine as I was well aware of what would need to be done to fix the one that came in the car. When i got there one of the mechanics in teh shop an older man solicited the sale of the engine, saying "oh we have a great GT engine." Mark at devek when discussign engines told me "oh thats Sparkys car, its really strong" I believe the name he used was sparky, apparently a regular customer of theirs. They showed me the engine on the stand, an oily mess as i remember it and my firs tquestion was, well whats the mileage, I didnt get an oh let me check i am not sure, I was told 130,000 or there abouts, when i asked again i was lead to believe it was between 130,000 +/- 2,000 miles.

Part of the deal was that I would have an engine serviced by devek with said mileage, I would also have copy;s of all service records on the car to document the service was done with a reputable company and considering the mileage onf the car was 110,00 and the engine had 20,000 more I figured thats ok, I'll leave the engine in and in a couple years buy some stroker parts and rebuild the original now.

Well now that the true mileage of the engine is known after finally after 3 months of constant phone calls, and e-mail inquiries on my part to Susan at Devek, just this week they were produced where mileage was indicated and thus my complaint arose.

I have asked for $2,000 back on the $5,000 purchase and based on the poll results to date, that seems to be more than fair on my part.

But, I did post this thread to get other's in the 928 community to tell me what they think is fair.

So please have at it, let me know others experiece with engine purchases and again, if you knowingly bought an engine with 170,000+ miles.(Could be even more the engine aparently ran for another year after the last servicing invoice i have which shows 167,000 miles) on it, what would you do with it, would you keep it and pay the expense of havign it installed and refreshed cosmetic things as i previously mentioned and spent about another $400 plus 10+ hours cleaning and refreshing, or would you have bought the thing as a core and rebuilt regardless.

I believe susan answered this question herself when she told me how she removed a 166,000 GTS engine for whatever reason and since it was out and because of the mileage they replaced all rings, bearings and what not. I think her story proves my point exactly, and that I wouldnt pay top dollar for an engine that should have jsut been refreshed while out.

pmotts

Hopefully we can expect more out of our 928 vendors (Big 5, 6?) than e bay sellers...

RyanPerrella

and again, this was purchased without second thought as i was told it was 130,000 miles and that it was regularly serviced and was a strong engine, sure when you buy stuff off ebay thats a buyer beware thing, this is different, they knew what they had, they knew the mileage, Susan admittedly later told me she was well aware of the mileage of that car as it frequently was in the shop. Yet on other times i had asked her about it prior to purchasing and mentioned the mileage and i recall her telling me oh yeah that sounds about right.

When you are a corporation, as i believe Devek now is, there are rules you follow, you dont get just to screw people, and they cant claim to not know the mileage, they have serviced it for years. They misstated the mileage in my opinion as no one would buy an engine with that many miles. So like many people they alter the mileage, in this case misquote mileage. It sure is easy to do as there is no revolutions gague to look at its a chunk of steel and aluminum it cant tell you anything just sitting on a stand, thats why RECORDS were absolutely required on my part to secure the deal, only after they finally produced those records did i really see what i had paid for.

RyanPerrella

yeah i would expect more out of reputable and often highly recommended vendors thats sponsor our site. As i stated Ebay is an auction, all acutions are that way, this was no auction sale. If you expect to get a pristine example through an auction jsut cause a seller tells you so then thats your problem. This is not a buyer beware purchase, I have to completely disagree with you DFWX

H2

Given the headaches of doing much about getting a refund or returning the engine...(you probably won't come out ahead and you'll just get an ulcer), I'd do the leakdown as Bob has suggested, and if it's good...go with it and mark it off as a lesson learned. Your bad for not asking for a leakdown before purchase. Should be done on any engine, regardless of mileage. No one's word counts 'till you see the printout figures yourself.

Somethings are not worth fighting over. Maybe this is one. Maybe it isn't. Reputable dealers will work with you. There are a couple of major 928 parts places in CA. One has a record of working with people...and the other doesn't. Both are good in different ways. Sometimes you learn this the hard way...but then again, maybe the engine is just what they said. One year warranty. You pay your money and you take your chances. Good luck.

Harvey

H2

Also, as was mentioned...condition of the cams and cam chains and pads is another area you need assurance on. Sounds like you're OK there. Always good to check the rod bearings. I think it may be #s 2 and 6 that are suspect if it's been run hard.

Harvey