Got Clutch out, Now what???? (Update: Fianlly Done!)
 

Got Chaad here helping me...

We got the clutch out, but we're like 2 monkeys scratching our heads. How do we separate the release lever/bearing from the pressure plate.

We were going to just pry it off, but that didn't seem like the best idea... HELP!

Big C-clip on the back of the release bearing which holds the big washer-like thing on.

I forget exactly how I did it but I know but I destroyed the release bearing getting it separated.
2 close up pics of each side of the to bearing would help though someone should pipe in soon with a bit more technical explanation than I can provide.

pics.

Per Matt, 1st pic remove c clip from inner groove, then it should come apart.

Chris

That looks like the gap in the C-clip.

Like they said - get that c-clip out.

IIRC you need to put pressure on the bearing before the C clip will come out.

You recall correctly.

When I did mine I thought I inserted heavy gauge (12Awg) wire spacers to each of the 3 posts on the pressure plate after applying pressure to the plate. This would release the pressure on the release bearing enough that you can remove the c-clip and slide the bearing out. I did this prior to having a digital camera, sorry no pics.

Release Bearing
 

Have a look at how Jon928se replaced my release bearing, in the last two pictures in this section

http://www.928.org.uk/~ukkid35/clutch/index.html

As someone said early in the game, insert the spacers prior to PP removal .... no matter: a couple of big 'C' clamps and some wood blocks will do the trick. Just tighten down enough until the bearing housing can be spun .... and pull out the retainer.
BTW: there is something unsettling about a man that looks that happy with a crowbar in his hand .... :D .... asking for Swiss watch repair procedures ... :p
Good luck.

Aaahhh C-Clamps. God's gift to the auto mechanic. Make sure you have a bunch of sizes in the tool box for such occasions. :thumbup:

Update:

Laptop ran out of juice in the garage last night. Since, I'm replacing the bearings and pressure plate, I decided to use the dremel to get that ring off. Bada-bing bada-boom! Came right off. Now I still have 2 issues.

1. How to get the pilot bearing out? Do I remove the flywheel or do it in situ? What should I use to pull it? I tried to fab a puller using some left-over oak flooring and a bolt, but the 3/4" flooring just bent - and the bearing didn't budge. Maybe I need to use some angle iron?

2. How do I re-assemble the new clutch pack? Do I need the "shim" the new pressure plate?

Note: The ball-cup bushing, while still functional, had separated into 3 pieces. :eek: No wonder I could remove the release arm from the ball-stud so easily.

Saw this last night, but couldn't figure out what he was doing... until after I diassembled eveything. Now, it makes sense. Oh well. :banghead:

If you are replacing the PP why do you think you need to disassemble the PP/release arm assembly???

Do a thread search on pilot bearing. Several options including a nifty ~$15 pilot bearing puller.

You'll need to use the same spacers you used on the original PP as per WSM. Use some big-a$$ed c-clamps to get the spacers out of your old PP.

Because I needed the relase arm. But that's done now.


Ok. Will do.


Got it. I think I can handle it, but we'll see. No working on the car until Friday night.

Removing flywheel will not help as bearing sits inside crankshaft. Get the puller. ;)

If You cannot find small enough puller, use our $1.50 method: http://members.cox.net/my_1987s4_928...lsot_tool.html

i used a large deep socket on top of a long threaded shank (Home Depot), wiht a cut in the shank at the tip to grab the back of the bearing. This "slide-hammer" worked well, though use a propane torch ($13 at HD) to heat the area around the bearing: makes it easier. A

Also, store the new bearing in the freezer until you're ready to install. :)

I made a crude puller out of some bolt stock and a couple of nuts. I'll post a pic tonight

My new pressure plate came with spacers in it all ready...

Voytek- I like yours. Very simple.

I also found this one in an old thread by Jkelly. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=pilot+bearing

One of these 2 should work.

I might as well ask, now, since Mark brought up the point. Are there any tricks to getting the new pilot bearing in? I got the tip about the freezer, but anything else like a BFH or something along those lines?

I used the grease method posted earlier and it worked very well.
See this thread for some pictures.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=pilot+bearing


/Peter

Peter-
I tried, but we use inch based measures for dowel rods (Round wood). It was either just a bit big or just a bit too small. Damn inches! Why can't the US use metric sizes! :banghead:

Hi Andrew,

yes that is a problem, let me know if you get stuck.
I still have a piece left that I could send you :thumbup:

/Peter

So, the throw-out bearing that you are replacing is a GTS-spec bearing. And the guide sleave is GTS spec. And the release arm lever is also GTS spec? (This is your '91's second (at least) clutch job?)

Maybe you mentioned this in a previous post. I just want to avoid another thread like:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=clutch

or

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=clutch

Nice pics :)

Dave-

You just opened my eyes! :eek: Ok, let see if I can get this right. Btw, the clutch was replaced back in '99 per my records.

I have the GTS spec Bearing, guide tube, & PP from DR. The release arm part number is (as you can see in the pic above) 928 116 832 07. Jim Bailey in the thread you listed above lists the correct release arm part number as, 928 116 832 09.

Hmmmm.... me thinks my bank account balance is going to go down. :(

To make a 'metric' dowel, chuck up a section of too large SAE dowel in your drill. Using some sandpaper, the perfect, non-grease spattering fit will appear .... oh yeah, the drill needs to be turned on .. ;)

When unbolting the pressure plate from the flywheel, shims should be installed to so that the pressure plate does not load. Since you are replacing your pressure plate, you wont have an issue upon reassembly (it should be pre-shimed), but this it makes it difficult to remove the lever from the old plate. Typically the lever/release bearing remain unloaded when the PP is shimed; therefore, the snap ring on the bearing is easier to deal with.

I used a slide hammer, which had an attachment that would grab the pilot bearing inner race. This made removing the pilot bearing very simple. I also placed the new bearing in the freezer overnight before installing.

I ran into this same problem, Andrew. My guide tube and release arm were wrong.
As for the pilot bearing removal all I did was get grease all over with the dowell trick. Believe me the bolt trick is so easy... All you need is a nut that just fits through the bearing. Now you need a bolt or bolt stock that is 3 or 4" long. Find out how far in th bolt goes in then put the not on the bolt so it will be about even with the inside of the pilot bearing. Put the bolt, with nut through the pilot bearing, you may want to wedge the side of the nut to one side of the pilot bearing. Now turn bolt clockwise and the bearing will pop out as soon as the bolt starts to bottom out.
I am sure my directions are easy to follow :confused:

Did this supercedes bearing issue also affect when someone does the Twin disk clutch retro-thing? I have two flywheels that I will use in succession (when the first wears out quickly) and I have the twin-disk clutch kits.

Along these lines, would I use the S4-style release arm, or the earlier versions? I got a bit criss-crossed here.

I am reinstalling the original clutch plates and bearings and flywheel, as I think there may be a learning curve with the SC power.

Andrew, I'll bring the lapping compound an a pilot bearing puller thursday night.

---------------------------------
Dennis
82 weissach #142

Andrew, you need a puller for the Clutch Pilot bearing: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=4876 It will turn it into a 3-minute job.

Jim Mayzurk
93 GTS 5-spd

The release arm lever is not too expensive - especially in light of your bill for the GTS PP - if you got a GTS PP and not a run-of-the-mill S4 PP.

What part of the clutch? Disc only?

The original S4/GT t/o bearing has been unavailable since years prior to 1999. So, if the t/o bearing was replaced then either they used all the correct GTS parts or your clutch would have exploded by now (see second referenced thread.) OR they managed to find a NOS S4/GT t/o bearing. But, there is another possible explanation. This gets more interesting....

... which is... wait for it.... originally for 1984 - 1986 MY 928.

928 116 832 08 is the correct P/N for a '87 through '91.

But 07 is superseded by the 08 and 09. And 08 by 09.

BUT the t/o bearing for an 86 is 928 116 085 24 and has NOT been superseded!?! Hmmm... the '86 bearing is not like the '87-'91 bearing and is still available one would assume.

Thus, is it possible that the 86 r/a lever is OK to use with the GTS t/o bearing and guide sleeve? Call Jim or D.R. And let us know!!

WWJBS?

Answer: I need to go up to the 928 116 832 09 arm. :(

On the bright side... I'll be able to order more stuff! :evilgrin:

All these nifty ideas for the pilot bearing puller.............thought I'd offer mine.

I used a long bolt (8mm X 30ish?), corresponding nut, and a washer (the washer just a bit larger than the internal hole diameter). Use pliars and bend the washer to make a 'U'. Put washer onto bolt and thread nut onto bolt. Turn washer parallel with bolt and slip through bearing hole, then pull out on bolt allowing the washer to pivot and catch on the inside shoulder of the bearing. Use a claw hammer to pry on the bolt, pulling the bearing with it.

It was essentially free, took about 45 seconds to fab and 30 seconds to pull the bearing. What can I say? It worked well for me in a pinch.

See Andrew, I told you that you should upgrade to a twindisk. ;)

Brendan, for the dual disk you use the dual disk pressure plate, arm, and throwout bearing both of which are not superceded with GTS parts. Buy Andrew's arm so he can get one that is correct for his single disk.

Ah. I have three and they seem to all be the same measurements. I'm doing all dual disk for the cars because of the flywheel availability and the way the clutch feels compared to the single.

I don't know $hi+ about pre-S4 cars.

But, the measurement difference between the GTS spec t/o bearing and sleeve and the S4-spec bearing and sleeve is only 1mm IIRC. Probably almost not enough to be able to measure (without calipers) but enough to implode the clutch if you mix and match.

That is certainly the safe, no muss no fuss answer.

So what other parts you gonna order? :D

Andrew,
Yes it was simple tool to get bearing out. You just need to to get big enough nut so the wings will not bend when you crank bearing out. Just get few sizes and see which works. Check this quick reference for parts you need with new release bearing: http://members.cox.net/my_1987s4_928...20upgrade.html
We had no problems putting pilot in. Master cylinder: 20 min of try and error work for two, and $35 Power Bleeder (from big three) will properly evacuate air in minutes. Just get ATE gold or blue brake fluid to be sure you have pushed everything out.

:D

I rounded off someof the edges on the nut soit would fit through the pilot bearing. You want to make sure and leave a couple of good edges on the nut so it can brab onto the inside of the bearing.

Voytek has a good pick of the differences in the release arms. I could find no ther changes than the one he points out. If you ground the nubs off you would have the newer version arm.

http://members.cox.net/my_1987s4_92...%20upgrade.html


Worf,

Absolutely, the TO bearing is way too tight on the old sleeve.

OK, I rechecked the pics from my earlier thread on this project, and I can clearly see the nubs on the arm. Sure, I could grnd them down and see what happens. Maybe it'll work fine, or maybe it'll grenade tthe TO bearing. For $115 I can have the correct arm and no issues - money well spent in my book especially when I paid over $1k to upgrade to the GTS style clutch. That's only a 10% bump.

Thanks for the support guys. As soon as I get the new lever (hopefully tomorrow) I'm sure I'll be asking more questions.

:cheers:

Good choice Andrew - I am just repeating other owners advice - this is a system you do NOT want to cut any corners. You will be rewarded for that later.

The Harbor Freight puller doesn't actually fit properly, but you can still use it if you use two rather than three prongs.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=4876

I have what looks to be exact same puller and it did work fine with all three. Have used it twice, once to pull out outer race only as it was all that was left and once on entire bearing. Maybe mine is somewhat smaller.

http://members.rennlist.com/vilhuer/HPIM3796.jpg

When I changed the dual disk clutch on my 81s I found the PO had installed a GTS arm. I discovered this because the existing arm was bent and when I bought a new arm it did not fit; I had to buy a new GTS arm.
Been installed for about 1 year without problems.

Sometimes I wonder how the old arm got bent.... :confused:

Marton

Dennis gave me his puller last night. Looks almost the same, except it only has 2 hooks. He said it's a tight fit, but it works. We'll see.

Quick update and question:

I got the pilot bearing out with the aid of Dennis' puller. MF was pretty tough to get out. Got the new one in.

I also, got the updated release arm and have fitted the new TO bearing. Question 1. I could not get the "pivot points" on the new TO bearing to align on the release arm (arm wants to spin). I thought once it's in, I can get the arm hooked onto the ball stud and then rotate the bearing to the correct orientation. Is this possible? Me thinks no. If not, what's the best way to do this?

Right now the clutch is in position with one bolt holding it in place. Question 2. Before I put the rest in and snug everything up, I was wondering if I should scuff up the flywheel or not? Would I just use a sanding block and say, 120 grit paper?

I thought I would have completed it by now, but the wife and kids have had me jumping. Thanks for the advice.

Q1: huh? I don't understand what you mean by pivot points (blocks on the side of TO?) or rotating the bearing to correct orientation. When everything goes in, the TO should be correctly oriented by the PP and the release arm. The release arm can move up and down and side to side until you get it onto the pivot ball.
Q2: no idea

Well, aren't you a big help! :p

On the GTS TO bearing the blocks on the sides of the bearing are triangle shaped with the point being a pivot. Based on how the old one came out (with the release arm loose as you describe), I thought I would be able to position the bearing correctly after I installed it. No dice.

Looks like I'll build a PP compressor and reposition. Thanks.

Andrew, I just looked at the GTS t/o bearing and release arm I have in my parts room. The bearing has two flats 180 degrees apart that match flats on the inner surface of the release arm. If your release arm is turning 75 degrees or so relative to the bearing and then getting hung up then you don't have the flats aligned; you'll need to dismantle the PP and reassemble with the flats mated.

Make any sense?

Yes... unfortunately it does. When I was putting the TO bearing in, I couldn't get enough clearance to get the snap ring in with the tabs alligned - so I turned them thinking I could orientate them back after the fact. :banghead: I'll get some stuff to make a press to get it sorted out. I saw some pics in a different thread that make sense now. :rolleyes:

Dave said what I meant. :p

First, Thanks to all for their help. The WSM do not have a good writeuo on how to disassemble the S4 and up clutch. It took me the better part of a month to get the thing done (probably a total of 12 hours), but if I had to do it again, 4 hours tops! Although that damn retaining c-clip... what a major PITA! :grr: . But it's done now and I have BWaaaaaa! I was expecting the clutch to feel heavier since I upgraded to the GTS clutch, but it feels about the same. The clutch engages much earlier now, which is klind of nice. I tried laying down some rubber, and whereas before I would smoke the clutch... today I smoked the tires! :evilgrin: I thought the VW commercial about "My Fast" was cute, and it is, just not fast - I know, because I now have very FAST!

Thanks again to the list and all who helped out! Next up, clear 5MPH bumperettes. :bigbye: :cheers:

Hi Andrew

Did your new bearing look the same as the old one, or like the one pictured here?

Both the new one and the old one looked like that one in the picture. Probably not the answer you were looking for. I had to construct a press in order to get that damn thing on there. It wasn't pretty, but it got the job done. My neighbor owns a transmission shop. Next time I'll go use his press.

So I got into my clutch housing last night, to find an 07 arm. Per records, my clutch was re-done in 1997, 60K miles ago. Some slippage now under WOT, so WIAAT.......

They replaced:

clutch plate 928.116.013.23
pressure plate 928.116.004.12
clutch release bearing 928.116.085.08
clutch lever bushing 928-116-145-03 928.116.145.03
pilot bearing 928-102-111-02 928.102.111.02
guide tube 928-116-087-16 928.116.087.16

But no arm.

So 1990-91GT's either came with an 07 arm or both Andrew and I had cheapskates R&R'ing our clutches ~10 years ago....

https://webfiles.uci.edu/redwards/pu...2012-17-07.jpg

https://webfiles.uci.edu/redwards/pu...2012-17-07.jpg

I just checked mine, its 09

I'm curious what the difference is?

tell chaad to use his foot on that bar?

The 09 uses the latest release bearing and the raised nubs on the arm are not as tall.

Wow... Dejavu

OK, dumb shim question. I made some aluminum shims out of 1/2 x 1/2" L-bracket tonight. There are a few good threads on clutch work and shims, I've read 'em all,

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...pressure+plate

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...pressure+plate

Now, I've got the clutch exposed, pulled some plugs to rotate the engine easier. How does one actually jam the shims in? The spring pressure on the new PP is pretty high, do I hammer these things in, or should I be able to wedge them in by hand?

as for shims

I took a pretty large flat washer and cut it into thirds with tin snips. They work great and I think its the easiest way to make the spacers which you MUST have in order to get the PP and clutch arm off so you can remove the thing

Ryan-

Cool. Now how do you get them in position to unload the PP? :)

http://www.928.org.uk/~ukkid35/photo...iver%20002.jpg

http://www.928.org.uk/~ukkid35/photo...iver%20003.jpg

The critical point is that the more worn the friction plate, the thicker the shims need to be.

Rob,

I used a large screw driver or a pry bar and you just use that to open up the gap, slip the shim in and it will free the pp so that you can remove it.

You can also use a pry bar on the release arm lever. With one hand use the pry bar to pull back on the release arm and use the other hand to push the shim into place.

If you had a two-pedal Porsche you would'nt be going through all this. You'd be worrying about your torque tube grinding the ass out of your block!:banghead: Merry Christmas to all!

Paul Barrera '91 S4 (AT)

Having figured out how to get at the big circlip in the relase bearing today, I disassembled my old PP and release arm. The clutch had been replaced in 1997 with the updated release bearing and guide tube, but somehow they had re-used the old '07' release arm. Well, this is how they did it, with some creative machining:

https://webfiles.uci.edu/redwards/pu...1%201-5-08.jpg

https://webfiles.uci.edu/redwards/pu...w%201-5-08.jpg

There's no mention of machine work on the receipt from that job, and they didn't bill him for a new arm- I can't decide whether the owner was being cheap and wouldn't pay for an '09' arm, or the shop couldn't/wouldn't source a new arm, or ???? I can't wait to see how she shifts with the proper parts in place....

Nice diet coke... :p

I don't think a new clutch arm will make that big of a difference, but then you neverknow. Keep us updated. :bigbye:

It's the diet coke that amps me up and makes me write all these posts asking for help, and then I figure it out in the meantime. Without all the caffeine, I wouldn't solve my own problems. Or I wouldn't take apart a perfectly good car in the first place.....

I forgot to mention that when I spin the old release bearing by hand, it makes about 1 turn and then grinds to a halt. I can get 2 turns if I really spin it, but I think the bearing is definitely on its way out.

If your like me, you dump out a little diet coke and refill with rum. Nice and stealthy.......

Bhump.

171.50 friction plate 928 116 013 23
513.14 pressure plate 928 116 004 16
216.48 throwout bearing 928 116 085 08
16.01 pilot bearing 928 102 111 02
92.14 updated clutch arm 928 116 832 09
60.71 updated clutch guide tube 928 116 087 16
10.52 clutch arm ball cup bushing 928 116 145 03
145.67 Clutch intermediate shaft 928 421 235 16