Window switches in door (story's end)
12-12-2005, 12:05 PM
#16
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I love 944 and 911 switches, because they a) are on the door and b) are teeny and c) aren't next to wiper/roof/each other's switches so there can be no confusion. Plus, how many centre consoles out there are just worn enough to make switch installation/operation impossible. I've seen many. Unfortunately 944 / 911 switches are just as old in design, with a ball bearing and a spring, JUST LIKE OURS.
12-12-2005, 06:16 PM
#17
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Michael,
Nice job of doing what you set out to do... very well finished.
I do agree with Nicole & Keith though - seems some steps backwards as well.
I think I still need the vents and mirror control and seat and mirror memory.
I do however think an integrated garage/gate opener system is a nice addition - particularly if it can run on the car power and have a biiger antenna for slightly longer range...etc I'm working on this too...
I do (I guess like you) dislike the console switches for several reasons: They are a little awkward to reach & see, the colocation with the sunroof & rear wiper switches is rather problematic I think (especially mixing the rear wiper for the sunroof - more so given their orientation - FIRE that dumbass engineer/designer!). I consider this as a very weak area of the original ergonomic design (which is mostly otherwise excellent).
Having only the L & R windows switches in the console as on the very early cars was clearer - if still a bit awkward.
Not clear where the sunroof should go - if it alone were between the L/R window switches it would be better.
My first solution was to relocate the rear wiper switch elsewhere ...target the biggest faux pas first...
Door mounted window switches are indeed more intuitive - but then side by side is the intuitive mounting on the drivers side...
So I would prefer to have my window switches in the door - side by side with all other features retained - but there just isn't any room left without some sacrifice - as you have done. Of course I'd like stock looking switches too....
Sounds like this works for you - great - you certainly did it very nicely.
Anyone else considering similar mods?
Alan
Nice job of doing what you set out to do... very well finished.
I do agree with Nicole & Keith though - seems some steps backwards as well.
I think I still need the vents and mirror control and seat and mirror memory.
I do however think an integrated garage/gate opener system is a nice addition - particularly if it can run on the car power and have a biiger antenna for slightly longer range...etc I'm working on this too...
I do (I guess like you) dislike the console switches for several reasons: They are a little awkward to reach & see, the colocation with the sunroof & rear wiper switches is rather problematic I think (especially mixing the rear wiper for the sunroof - more so given their orientation - FIRE that dumbass engineer/designer!). I consider this as a very weak area of the original ergonomic design (which is mostly otherwise excellent).
Having only the L & R windows switches in the console as on the very early cars was clearer - if still a bit awkward.
Not clear where the sunroof should go - if it alone were between the L/R window switches it would be better.
My first solution was to relocate the rear wiper switch elsewhere ...target the biggest faux pas first...
Door mounted window switches are indeed more intuitive - but then side by side is the intuitive mounting on the drivers side...
So I would prefer to have my window switches in the door - side by side with all other features retained - but there just isn't any room left without some sacrifice - as you have done. Of course I'd like stock looking switches too....
Sounds like this works for you - great - you certainly did it very nicely.
Anyone else considering similar mods?
Alan
Last edited by Alan; 12-12-2005 at 06:58 PM. Reason: sp!
12-12-2005, 08:00 PM
#18
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Probably the most practical on my car (86.5), would be to put the rear wiper switch where the "Odometer Reset" button is in the pod...and use the "unused" pushbutton underneath the pod (the one on the left side of the pod), for "Resetting the OD. 
12-12-2005, 08:05 PM
#19
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Alan, I could have gone with smaller switches, and mounted them side-by-side, but I wanted to keep the original switches, which I thought were part of the car's personality. When they are installed in the 944 mounts, they work flawlessly. I also thought of mounting them vertically, in the face of the door, where there would be no space constraints; but they function better, from an ergonomical point of view, when mounted in a horizontal plane. Where they are now, the left hand finds them very easily and naturally. I had no need for seat and mirror memory, because no one else ever drives my car. I deleted the rear wiper altogether, so that switch became redundant.
12-12-2005, 09:01 PM
#20
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It's just so common nowadays to have the window switch in the door,
that it is where you expect it to be. It seems strange to have them
in the center console. I would often reach for the door, and realize
my mistake. Passengers often look around the door for the switch
as well. Yes, you get used to it, but this is a much more current
and modern update. I agree though, that you should have just
used switches from a 996 or something less crappy than the
928 switches, which are always going out...
that it is where you expect it to be. It seems strange to have them
in the center console. I would often reach for the door, and realize
my mistake. Passengers often look around the door for the switch
as well. Yes, you get used to it, but this is a much more current
and modern update. I agree though, that you should have just
used switches from a 996 or something less crappy than the
928 switches, which are always going out...
12-12-2005, 09:36 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by Nicole
In 1973 - more than 30 years (!) ago, when the 928 was designed, the German mentality was to make it as good as they knew at the time. Think about how many cars HAD power windows at that time.
Things changed in 32 years, and today, the German mentality is to make it as good as they know today. For example, the German mentality could be to have the switches for left and right windows next to each other (left for left window, and right for right window) so you don't have to remember which switch is which. They probably would be a little smaller and formed in a more ergonomic way.
The German mentality would probably not allow the deletion of the mirror controls and seat memory, let alone the door vent.
The latter was actually a pretty intelligent idea, as it not only defogs or defrosts the side window, it also provides a low draft air curtain that is designed to reduce radiation of the outside heat through the window by moving cooler air up along the window into the headroom. I found this to work very well when all is properly adjusted, but some here seem to disagree.
Sure, these vents are not suitable to cool down the cabin quickly in extreme heat - that's what the center vent is much better for. But after the initial cool-down process, if you want to drive with minimal draft and noise, these vents are indispensable.
After the initial cool-down, set the HVAC control lever to direct all air upwards, close the center vent, and direct the door vents upwards. Keep fan speed as low as possible and add rear AC as necessary. Drive comfortably like this for hours...
If you direct cool air directly to your body, your body will respond by producing more heat, making you sweat even more. You get is an ILLUSION of cool, but I doubt it will ever be really comfortable.
Things changed in 32 years, and today, the German mentality is to make it as good as they know today. For example, the German mentality could be to have the switches for left and right windows next to each other (left for left window, and right for right window) so you don't have to remember which switch is which. They probably would be a little smaller and formed in a more ergonomic way.
The German mentality would probably not allow the deletion of the mirror controls and seat memory, let alone the door vent.
The latter was actually a pretty intelligent idea, as it not only defogs or defrosts the side window, it also provides a low draft air curtain that is designed to reduce radiation of the outside heat through the window by moving cooler air up along the window into the headroom. I found this to work very well when all is properly adjusted, but some here seem to disagree.
Sure, these vents are not suitable to cool down the cabin quickly in extreme heat - that's what the center vent is much better for. But after the initial cool-down process, if you want to drive with minimal draft and noise, these vents are indispensable.
After the initial cool-down, set the HVAC control lever to direct all air upwards, close the center vent, and direct the door vents upwards. Keep fan speed as low as possible and add rear AC as necessary. Drive comfortably like this for hours...
If you direct cool air directly to your body, your body will respond by producing more heat, making you sweat even more. You get is an ILLUSION of cool, but I doubt it will ever be really comfortable.
I keep meaning to change that thing out, but the cost, though small, keeps bothering me. I guess it is just the fact that I cannot stand the stale air inside a car with it's windows closed, and I only use my air conditioning compressor for it's defog purpose. I nearly always drive with both windows down.
I'm sure some 928's have strong air conditioning, but mine doesn't. Airco shops tell me that my compressor is perfect, and that my evaporator is fine- yet, I still have weak air conditioning. I suspect that the fish-bowl hot interior of a normal 928 is probably more the problem. Along with the fact that this car was built for Austria, not Saudi Arabia or Florida.
The side vents on the 928 interior are striking, as are the foam rings that the good folks in Stuttgart installed to make sure that the air from the climate control system reached the side vents.
-The day I bought my car in 1999, I parked it in the driveway and proceeded to wash it. My brother lived with me then, and he was asleep when the PO/professional butt-eater! drove it to my house. We took the car to dinner at a restaurant downtown, and one of the comments my ******* brother, another German car fanatic ['95 Golf, and now '96 Jetta, since my dad just bought an '03 Jetta 1.8t] made to me was how you could drive in a 928 with the windows down and you felt almost no breeze whatsoever. Chris at the time actually had some hair [he's Homer Simpson now~] and commented that his hair wasn't being blown around. I agree, and still do.
-I suspect the side vents, the vents on the door itself, were installed for aesthetic purposes ONLY. Think about it: how many cars had vents in the doors during the 1970's? My father forced me to drive a pink '77 cadillac [it was either that or a 65 hp chevrolet chevette/Opel Kadett mk1], and even this delux car was without armrest vents. Years later, I started noticing armrest vents on various rental cars, and now it is common to find a foam surround around an air passage in the door hinge area of cars.
Did the 928's designers come up with door vents? Possibly. I have the book "Project 928", and I keep it in my living room on the shelves next to the entertainment center. It is fascinating to look at the design development and the eventual evolution.
Hmm. Now about that AC head~
N!
12-12-2005, 09:44 PM
#23
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Michael,
Well! - deleting the rear wiper solved the biggest problem! I honestly never considered that solution...!
BTW I also purchased the 944 double and single mounts that work with 928 switches - for a similar idea... I've dropped it for now. But I've been down some of that same thinking path! Good that you actually did it!
I was actually considering making a wider door - arm console - but its not easy fabricating something like that and blending the form and the finish well enough ... I may try it one day... not any time soon though.
Alan
Well! - deleting the rear wiper solved the biggest problem! I honestly never considered that solution...!
BTW I also purchased the 944 double and single mounts that work with 928 switches - for a similar idea... I've dropped it for now. But I've been down some of that same thinking path! Good that you actually did it!
I was actually considering making a wider door - arm console - but its not easy fabricating something like that and blending the form and the finish well enough ... I may try it one day... not any time soon though.
Alan
12-12-2005, 11:30 PM
#25
Race Car
That install looks great!! Executed very well.
Three of my recent cars have had the controls on a horizontal plane as well. The one thing that I do not like about that is that if the windows are cracked in the rain it seems like everytime they get a good soaking. I know, don't crack the window. Better yet is not to put the switches there I like fresh air.
Another car that I had a few year back, Alfa Romeo Milano also had the switches in the center console. I always figured that it was to cut down on cost. All 4 windows front and back were right between the front seat in reach of everyone in the cabin.
Michael
Three of my recent cars have had the controls on a horizontal plane as well. The one thing that I do not like about that is that if the windows are cracked in the rain it seems like everytime they get a good soaking. I know, don't crack the window. Better yet is not to put the switches there I like fresh air.
Another car that I had a few year back, Alfa Romeo Milano also had the switches in the center console. I always figured that it was to cut down on cost. All 4 windows front and back were right between the front seat in reach of everyone in the cabin.
Michael
12-12-2005, 11:48 PM
#26
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Normy,
Something must be wrong with your AC... My Black/Black car in 120 degree Phoenix summers cools down in <10 minutes (driving) from a measured cabin temperature of >180 degrees to a rather more comfortable 85 degrees. This with R134a too. Something else must be causing your problems - heater also on with AC?
To those of you who think ~10 minutes is still a long time... with virtually the whole car at 190 degrees its just a huge huge thermal load for the AC to move. Of course I usually like to park inside, in the shade or at least under a cover... but that isn't always possible....
Alan - I survived another Phoenix summer!
PS I can tell you black leather & shorts don't always mix well (humm not sure that comes over right...)
Something must be wrong with your AC... My Black/Black car in 120 degree Phoenix summers cools down in <10 minutes (driving) from a measured cabin temperature of >180 degrees to a rather more comfortable 85 degrees. This with R134a too. Something else must be causing your problems - heater also on with AC?
To those of you who think ~10 minutes is still a long time... with virtually the whole car at 190 degrees its just a huge huge thermal load for the AC to move. Of course I usually like to park inside, in the shade or at least under a cover... but that isn't always possible....
Alan - I survived another Phoenix summer!
PS I can tell you black leather & shorts don't always mix well (humm not sure that comes over right...)
12-13-2005, 02:59 AM
#27
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Yes, it is a very nice job and well executed, but again, it looks like I stand alone..somewhat. I just don't get it!
I think that the switches are in a perfect place in the center console where you do not have to look for them. This was part of the Porsche design, ergonomic genius. Big buttons, big *****, analog gauges...left hand stays on the wheel. No matter, I love innovation and appreciate ANYTHING that is done with these cars beyond what Porsche had done.
So what is now in place where the switches were?
BTW, I keep hearing folks complain about the 928 switches. They are huge and easy to find and are so simplistically made, that a revamp is a 5 minute job to get them working like new again. Oh well.
I think that the switches are in a perfect place in the center console where you do not have to look for them. This was part of the Porsche design, ergonomic genius. Big buttons, big *****, analog gauges...left hand stays on the wheel. No matter, I love innovation and appreciate ANYTHING that is done with these cars beyond what Porsche had done.
So what is now in place where the switches were?
BTW, I keep hearing folks complain about the 928 switches. They are huge and easy to find and are so simplistically made, that a revamp is a 5 minute job to get them working like new again. Oh well.
12-13-2005, 06:25 AM
#28
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Michael,
Such a well executed piece of redesign. Adapting the ergonomic issue to your taste/need is impressive.
As I drive with the seat racked all the way back, I find the stock switch positions to be ideal - and they are identically placed in my BMW, so the same 'hand on the wheel, eyes on the road' habit applies as the switches are operated. The classic car reviewer phrase is ... " falls readily to hand".
So I will join Keith in not wishing to change - but remain impressed with your mods.
Such a well executed piece of redesign. Adapting the ergonomic issue to your taste/need is impressive.
As I drive with the seat racked all the way back, I find the stock switch positions to be ideal - and they are identically placed in my BMW, so the same 'hand on the wheel, eyes on the road' habit applies as the switches are operated. The classic car reviewer phrase is ... " falls readily to hand".
So I will join Keith in not wishing to change - but remain impressed with your mods.
12-13-2005, 12:10 PM
#29
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Keith,
Ok so don't you think its a bit dumb to put the rear wiper & sunroof (and windows) all together where its hard to see them...
Sunroof & Windows = OK but Rear Wiper....?
How are you supposed to remember which is which between sunroof & wiper...
no real tactile clues...
OK tell me now wiper on left or right? - you sure? - you get the idea....
Say its raining hard enough that you need to press the rear wiper button (at the back) - oops you missed - now the sunroof opens - probably not very nice. Of course the opposite problem is just embarrasing...
This is just plain BAD BAD BAD ergonomic design - really no excuse - the same arrangement with the wiper switch operation reversed would be logical and much improved - it would still be hard to know you got the right one without looking or remembering - but much less problematic.
Why didn't they put a dimple in the depresssion (or similar) for the wiper switch at least.
Seems like the "B-Team" was on this job - they did the intermittent wipers too...
Alan
Ok so don't you think its a bit dumb to put the rear wiper & sunroof (and windows) all together where its hard to see them...
Sunroof & Windows = OK but Rear Wiper....?
How are you supposed to remember which is which between sunroof & wiper...
no real tactile clues...
OK tell me now wiper on left or right? - you sure? - you get the idea....
Say its raining hard enough that you need to press the rear wiper button (at the back) - oops you missed - now the sunroof opens - probably not very nice. Of course the opposite problem is just embarrasing...
This is just plain BAD BAD BAD ergonomic design - really no excuse - the same arrangement with the wiper switch operation reversed would be logical and much improved - it would still be hard to know you got the right one without looking or remembering - but much less problematic.
Why didn't they put a dimple in the depresssion (or similar) for the wiper switch at least.
Seems like the "B-Team" was on this job - they did the intermittent wipers too...
Alan
12-13-2005, 03:35 PM
#30
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HA! I don't have a rear wiper! So there!!! LOL
I just happen to be blessed with long term memory. I even have 4 fingers for four switches (just in case I wanted to flip any switch at a split seconds notice
)
In all seriousness, I think I actually hit the rear wiper switch by accident once back when I first got my 82. I know that others across the country do not have the luxury of deleting the rear wiper, but I believe it was Porsche's intention to have BIG buttons (like the telephones for the elderly) so you can "see" or "feel" what switch is which. I highly doubt that a driver is going to be racing and will feel the need to take the time to look down and fumble with the sunroof switch...or any other of the 4 switches for that matter. There is a note in the OM stating that the sunroof should not be opened at speeds in excess of 60mph...I think this should probably apply to the switches as well.
IMHO, if you are having problems operating the four switches while driving, then you are attempting to use them at the wrong times....like going too fast, weaving through traffic or in the twisties...
I just happen to be blessed with long term memory. I even have 4 fingers for four switches (just in case I wanted to flip any switch at a split seconds notice
)In all seriousness, I think I actually hit the rear wiper switch by accident once back when I first got my 82. I know that others across the country do not have the luxury of deleting the rear wiper, but I believe it was Porsche's intention to have BIG buttons (like the telephones for the elderly) so you can "see" or "feel" what switch is which. I highly doubt that a driver is going to be racing and will feel the need to take the time to look down and fumble with the sunroof switch...or any other of the 4 switches for that matter. There is a note in the OM stating that the sunroof should not be opened at speeds in excess of 60mph...I think this should probably apply to the switches as well.
IMHO, if you are having problems operating the four switches while driving, then you are attempting to use them at the wrong times....like going too fast, weaving through traffic or in the twisties...