groppo

Wondering how many hours the service manual quotes to replace the timing belt in a 1990 S4? Mine is about to be done, and I would like an idea of the time required. Water pump and tensioner is being replaced aswell. I couldn't find any info on the web.

Thanks,

groppo

Big Dave

I don't recall seeing anything in the manual that mentions how long it should take. Most shops use a computer program that indicates how long the process will take and charge accordingly, even if they finish it quicker.

Most people here seem to spend 10-12 hours doing it themselves the first time since they inevitably spend extra time cleaning and fixing/replacing other things while they're at it. A mechanic should obviously be able to do it much more quickly. It's been a while, but I believe I've seen folks here say that they've been charged about $1,500 for the job, including parts. You can do it yourself for about $400-500.

If you have the time, I'd recommend taking a look at John Pirtle's excellent write-up of the process and trying to do it yourself. It seems like a daunting task, but it's actually pretty easy unless you are unfortunate enough to snap off a bolt....water pump bolts are notorious for doing this.

Here's the link to John's site: http://members.rennlist.com/pirtle/tbelt.html

As outrageous as it may sound, I've gotten to the point where I can R&R a belt and pump in about 4-5 hours.

Bill Ball

I don't know the book for sure, but I believe it is 10 hours. There are a number of WYAIT tasks, such as hoses and accessory belts, various seals and it is quite common to need new gears (cam, oil pump, crank). If the job is done right, with replacement of all bushings, pulleys and rebuilding of the tensioner, 10-12 hours is reasonable and a fast pace. And that assumes none of the water pump bolts break off, which is not a good assumption.

docmirror

A decent enough wrench, with the Pirtle docs shoud be able to do just the TB in about 6-7 hours. Like everyone else says, there are a bunch of WYAIT stuff that takes the job up to 10-13 hours including the water pump repl. I got an est from an independent shop of $1780 for TB/WP, with no other stuff repl. Bearings, tensioner, cam gears, idlers, would take it up near $2000 from the shop. I did the TB job for under $200. My WP was new. Messy, but good work to do. gives you confidence.

Doc

Jim_H

Very satisfying job to do yourself and also the only way you will know it was done correctly.

Bill Ball

Yes, as Doc says, this is good work to do. The first one is a right of passage to true 928 ownership and went very slowly for me, involving a number of the common mishaps and just the general intimidation of dealing with what must be the Swiss watch of timing belt contraptions. I spent a lot of time just staring at this stage...

And my garage was littered with various rescue tools at one point...

UKKid35

If your engine looks like Bill's you would have a relatively easy job doing it yourself. If however your engine suffers from the usual leaking oil neck gasket (and you can see a little lake of oil next to the engine number stamp) then it will be a rather messy and lengthy endurance test. But as Jim says if you do it yourself then you will know its done correctly.

Tony's site explains the Tensioner wonderfully and has links to two of the best writeups:

http://members.rennlist.com/v1uhoh/timing.htm

JagEng is another very useful link for belt change info:

http://www.jageng.com/sharkbit_2.htm

dr bob

I have 8 hours of video from my first TB/WP job. That is on a car that was clean in the engine bay to start with, and therefore 'only' took another couple hours of additional cleaning between the video runs. I stretched the job by a couple hours with the setups, shrank it by about the same by having ALL the parts in the Jim Bailey Care Package, and by having all the tools present at the start of the project. I did not replace the cam seals, but did everything else on the front of the block.

If your mecahnic has done one before, he should be able to crank out the basic TB/WP job in six to eight hours, with basic required cleaning only. The shop usually throws in a factor K for broken water pump bolts and the like, and may also use a difficulty multiplier, a customer attitude factor, and the slways-present factor P that says that any P car service needs to be expensive because the owner is rich.

A wise parts guy mentioned recently that a shop in this area needs to bring in about $125/hr to stay in business. The dealers charge more than that here, while some iindependents will charge a little less. There's a pretty good value in finding someone who knows that car to work on it, even if you end up paying the higher dealer rate. Assuming that your dealer has someone who is 928 fluent of course. Whoever does the job needs to be able to discusss the watch-outs in advance, demonstrate that they own a copy of the WSM, and demonstrate that they own and know how to use the tesnion gauge for the belt. Others need not apply.


If you decide to do it yourself, consider that the job is not hard, it just takes a bit of time to get everything out of the way to get to the belt. Then you get to put all that stuff back. If the job hasn't been butchered in the past, the WP bolts will come right out. All the parts that are on there are held on with the correct fasteners in the correct places, so keeping track of the bolts and the parts that they go with isn't that tough. All the tools and small parts fit on my 24x60 folding worktable (looks nothing like Bill's garage floor... ) during the project. The tools could be purchased for less than $250 at Harbor Freight, plus the belt gauge that you can buy for less than $75. Many of the specialty tools, like the big torque wrench for the crank pulley bolt and the tensioner gauge, can sometimes be borrowed from a local 928 enthusiast (like me...), along with some handholding and assistance through the critical portions of the task. In the end, you'll have an intimate knowledge of what's going on in front of the motor, you'll know the job was done exactly correctly with no shortcuts taken, plus you'll attain silver status in the Order of the 928 Timing Belt Changers. This is an honor that rates somewhat above membership in the Secret Society of Garlic Wharf Rats, so don't even consider downplaying the importance of membership.

heinrich

Bob, why don't you get that video copmpressed and send it out on DVD-MPEG? Could help many of our brothers and sisters who just can't see themselves doing it.

dr bob

I did the whole video with only my hands and arms showing on camera. So I can't really see myself doing it either....

It needs some editing, narration, titles, polishing. I need a week of spare time at the editing console. There are also some gaps that need to be reshot, so I may be looking for a S4 candidate for a t-belt job in the east San Fernando Valley to get the missing parts. Some of the things I did off-camera are probably important enough to add back in, looking back at the raw segments.

The thing was shot in widescreen format, so I need to upgrade my editing software to preserve that aspect. Just need to dash over to Fry's with the credit card. Then there's the time issue right now. Watch 'my' parade on January 2 this year. Way too much to do on that little effort between now and January.

Sometime early next year if the stars align well. The finished product may show up through the OC, and through 928 International. We'll get there!

chaadster

I had mine done this past Spring at an independent shop to the tune of 10hrs and $1680 or thereabouts (including one new cam gear, rebuilt tensioner, new w/p, front cam seals, all belts, and an oil change), but I got a bit of a discount that saved about $300, I believe. In all, just like Doc said, about $2k.

AO

I'm sorry, but after having done a TB/WP replacement (on my previous car), motor mounts, suspension, etc. I just can't phathom spending $2k on this maintenance. Of the jobs I've done, this one was actually pretty easy. The hardest part was the crank bolt and getting the harmonic balancer off. I'd much rather get to know my car, and save the ~$1,500.

Granted you have to have the time and the motivation to do this job. With the help of the WSM and rennlist, any noob could definately tackle this job (unless you're wheelchair bound). I highly reccomend you do it yourself.

heinrich

I gots ta tell ya ... if I did the job I'd charge at LEAST 2k. Huge amount of labour ... cleaning, removal, etc etc, and then the job and then the refitting of everything.

AO

H-

I agree. $2,000 or less is a pretty fair price, but I know that I'll do it right (e.g. not gounding the TB light), and have the confidence to check it later too. Plus I'll have $1500 left over to buy more stuff.

chaadster

I dunno how much I weight the "I did it myself so I know it's done right" thing... How much of a problem is some kind of TB related failure? Are pro techs botching the job all over the place? Doesn't seem like it, and there's something to be said for having a shop to go back on in the event something should go wrong, I'd think. Take a worst case scenario like Big Dave's experience; would a shop have assumed any responsibility for the repairs had THEY bent that bolt? Just something to consider, I think. Mmm, but Dave does get mad props on the street and is a Grand High Master in the Order of 928 Timing Belt Changers, so theres something to be said for that, too!!