No BS GTS vs GT vs S4 Comparison
11-08-2005, 10:03 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by MikeN
I would very much beg to differ.......I don't have any problems getting my GT moving at any RPM......and it does not feel underpowered at all below 4K.
I have driven at least 15 GTSs of both tranny types........and ALL of them did not feel like they had anything on my GT as far as speed or handling. Yes they do have a bit more down very low, but none of them felt like they had 369lbs of torque.....and most dyno reports I have seen show this also. Most dyno reports also show that GT HP numbers are very close (and sometimes more) than the typical GTS. IMO the GT is very much an "understated" 928 model while the GTS is a bit overstated.
Now as far as which one looks the best?.......I would agree that the GTS is the best looking 928 hands down, but as far as handling and performance are concerned the GT is much more sporting in nature than any GTS I have ever come across. The GTS is softer and a bit more on the quiet side.....a true refined GT, while the GT can do double duty as a bit of a raw sports car when asked. It is more fun to drive than a GTS IMO.
For many years now I have had the $$$ to blow on a GTS if I wanted to....(even a Willhoit exploited version) and just don't see the reason to do it......the price vs. performance is just not there. If you like a GTS just for looks then that is a different story.....I say go for it, but it has nothing on performance compared to a GT.
I have driven at least 15 GTSs of both tranny types........and ALL of them did not feel like they had anything on my GT as far as speed or handling. Yes they do have a bit more down very low, but none of them felt like they had 369lbs of torque.....and most dyno reports I have seen show this also. Most dyno reports also show that GT HP numbers are very close (and sometimes more) than the typical GTS. IMO the GT is very much an "understated" 928 model while the GTS is a bit overstated.
Now as far as which one looks the best?.......I would agree that the GTS is the best looking 928 hands down, but as far as handling and performance are concerned the GT is much more sporting in nature than any GTS I have ever come across. The GTS is softer and a bit more on the quiet side.....a true refined GT, while the GT can do double duty as a bit of a raw sports car when asked. It is more fun to drive than a GTS IMO.
For many years now I have had the $$$ to blow on a GTS if I wanted to....(even a Willhoit exploited version) and just don't see the reason to do it......the price vs. performance is just not there. If you like a GTS just for looks then that is a different story.....I say go for it, but it has nothing on performance compared to a GT.
11-08-2005, 11:39 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by heinrich
I think you GTS guys are good people, but you need to get out more 
.... Bigs drives 3-4k a year, and I saw your post Chuck that your revs stay down. Now, drive like we less-endowed 
folks drive, and you're starting to test the oiling of your 928. Stay in the higher revs (above 3k and sustained around 5k often) and do (like me) 20k a year in morning commute for 4 years.
.... Bigs drives 3-4k a year, and I saw your post Chuck that your revs stay down. Now, drive like we less-endowed folks drive, and you're starting to test the oiling of your 928. Stay in the higher revs (above 3k and sustained around 5k often) and do (like me) 20k a year in morning commute for 4 years.
11-09-2005, 12:27 AM
#64
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I think that Cheburator is on to something! Lool again at what he says:
"We had this debate in the UK for a while. The conclusion was that the ultimate 928 would be a Euro spec late 1986 5spd manual with a 5ltr short block and the 8v heads. You would get the 4-pot brembos and the S4 suspension and the briliant Euro S engine. Take it out to 5ltrs and you have a GTS beater - easily!!! All for the price of a song... Who cares about dual Air-Con and Air Bags if you can post 13.07 in the quarter fully stock"
Heaven help us when Shane reads this. He'll add a supercharger (or two) and blow us all away!
Yeh..I admit that I lust the GTS. Not an easy cure when your garage is full, you love all your cars, and your wife has a threatening pair of sissors and a warped idea of what the solutiion might be. Is there a 928 Anonymous group for guys like us? With my luck, by the time I think I have saved enough $$ to buy a GTS. the prices will have gone up or they'll all be worn out.
Harvey
"We had this debate in the UK for a while. The conclusion was that the ultimate 928 would be a Euro spec late 1986 5spd manual with a 5ltr short block and the 8v heads. You would get the 4-pot brembos and the S4 suspension and the briliant Euro S engine. Take it out to 5ltrs and you have a GTS beater - easily!!! All for the price of a song... Who cares about dual Air-Con and Air Bags if you can post 13.07 in the quarter fully stock"
Heaven help us when Shane reads this. He'll add a supercharger (or two) and blow us all away!
Yeh..I admit that I lust the GTS. Not an easy cure when your garage is full, you love all your cars, and your wife has a threatening pair of sissors and a warped idea of what the solutiion might be. Is there a 928 Anonymous group for guys like us? With my luck, by the time I think I have saved enough $$ to buy a GTS. the prices will have gone up or they'll all be worn out.
Harvey
11-09-2005, 12:28 AM
#65
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Reece wrote:
>>>>>The GTS represents the most true to the concept model of the 928.
I understand what you're saying Reece, but I disagree. I think the '91 S4 is probably the apex of what the 928 was meant to be in the eyes of Porsche - A powerful, excellent handling, luxurious GT that promotes confidence at speed. IMHO it is the most balanced version of the 928. Seamless power delivery, very neutral handling characteristics, all the electronic bells and whistles, capable of being piloted effortlessly by the full spectrum of drivers' abilities that may slide in behind the wheel. The versions prior to it, both A/T and 5 speeds, have a less refined feel (which is an attraction for many of us), and the GTS's that came after can be a little more of a handful.
Just my opinion of course, but I think if you put all the design goals that Porsche had for the 928 into the hopper, a '91S4 would plop out the bottom.
>>>>>The GTS represents the most true to the concept model of the 928.
I understand what you're saying Reece, but I disagree. I think the '91 S4 is probably the apex of what the 928 was meant to be in the eyes of Porsche - A powerful, excellent handling, luxurious GT that promotes confidence at speed. IMHO it is the most balanced version of the 928. Seamless power delivery, very neutral handling characteristics, all the electronic bells and whistles, capable of being piloted effortlessly by the full spectrum of drivers' abilities that may slide in behind the wheel. The versions prior to it, both A/T and 5 speeds, have a less refined feel (which is an attraction for many of us), and the GTS's that came after can be a little more of a handful.
Just my opinion of course, but I think if you put all the design goals that Porsche had for the 928 into the hopper, a '91S4 would plop out the bottom.
11-09-2005, 12:39 AM
#66
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Porsche constantly changed their minds over the 17 years of production. To me, the S4 was what they had in mind at the first design. The S4 gave them the opportunity to put into practice, all they had wanted to do in 1978, but had not had the tools/materials to do. Porsche added all sorts of extras and changes over the years. They wanted to offer auto ease and luxury, but the initial design was for a much wider, S4-style car to compete directly with Lamborghini and other supercars.
So ... I'd go by their initial design goals. And that is the S4 5sp.
So ... I'd go by their initial design goals. And that is the S4 5sp.
11-09-2005, 12:40 AM
#67
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Originally Posted by Hughett
I think that Cheburator is on to something! Lool again at what he says:
"We had this debate in the UK for a while. The conclusion was that the ultimate 928 would be a Euro spec late 1986 5spd manual with a 5ltr short block and the 8v heads. You would get the 4-pot brembos and the S4 suspension and the briliant Euro S engine. Take it out to 5ltrs and you have a GTS beater - easily!!! All for the price of a song... Who cares about dual Air-Con and Air Bags if you can post 13.07 in the quarter fully stock"
Heaven help us when Shane reads this. He'll add a supercharger (or two) and blow us all away!
Yeh..I admit that I lust the GTS. Not an easy cure when your garage is full, you love all your cars, and your wife has a threatening pair of sissors and a warped idea of what the solutiion might be. Is there a 928 Anonymous group for guys like us? With my luck, by the time I think I have saved enough $$ to buy a GTS. the prices will have gone up or they'll all be worn out.
Harvey
"We had this debate in the UK for a while. The conclusion was that the ultimate 928 would be a Euro spec late 1986 5spd manual with a 5ltr short block and the 8v heads. You would get the 4-pot brembos and the S4 suspension and the briliant Euro S engine. Take it out to 5ltrs and you have a GTS beater - easily!!! All for the price of a song... Who cares about dual Air-Con and Air Bags if you can post 13.07 in the quarter fully stock"
Heaven help us when Shane reads this. He'll add a supercharger (or two) and blow us all away!
Yeh..I admit that I lust the GTS. Not an easy cure when your garage is full, you love all your cars, and your wife has a threatening pair of sissors and a warped idea of what the solutiion might be. Is there a 928 Anonymous group for guys like us? With my luck, by the time I think I have saved enough $$ to buy a GTS. the prices will have gone up or they'll all be worn out.
Harvey
11-09-2005, 01:17 AM
#68
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Ah, how easy it is to spend someone else's money. You folks must all work for the fed gummint. Price no object, I would get the Vyeron, or however it's spelled. Maybe an Enzo. But, price is an object. We can only indulge in what we can afford.
My pick would be a cheap 1987 GT. What?! You say no such thing as a 1987 GT? How about a 1987 five speed, rear air delete, sunroof delete, moulding delete, opt 220 and 474. You get the sport shocks, LSD, light weight and low ratio. Add to that some well placed goodies and it's a go fast blast for not much green. The 1986 Euro is a good plan as well. They scoot.
I have a 1990GT and it's great fun. Not interested in a GTS for the added money.
Doc
My pick would be a cheap 1987 GT. What?! You say no such thing as a 1987 GT? How about a 1987 five speed, rear air delete, sunroof delete, moulding delete, opt 220 and 474. You get the sport shocks, LSD, light weight and low ratio. Add to that some well placed goodies and it's a go fast blast for not much green. The 1986 Euro is a good plan as well. They scoot.
I have a 1990GT and it's great fun. Not interested in a GTS for the added money.
Doc
11-09-2005, 01:29 AM
#69
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I love my S2....but I still want a GTS! I love the wide rear haunches and the exclusivity. There weren't that many built, and if you own one you own something special. That specificity appeals to me.
I know the GT's are really better cars, but I don't race and if I did I wouldn't do it with a GT anyway- I'd do it with a far better car for racing, my 3300 lb current S2! So what's the point of the GT, other than the wild torque curve, which I can certainly appreciate....
[about $10,000!]
-I'm thinking of buying this really cool Formula boat- it's 23 feet long, has twin 350 Mercruisers, will fit under all the bridges between my house and the Atlantic ocean [canvas retracted], and he's asking $10k....
hello?
N!
I know the GT's are really better cars, but I don't race and if I did I wouldn't do it with a GT anyway- I'd do it with a far better car for racing, my 3300 lb current S2! So what's the point of the GT, other than the wild torque curve, which I can certainly appreciate....
[about $10,000!]
-I'm thinking of buying this really cool Formula boat- it's 23 feet long, has twin 350 Mercruisers, will fit under all the bridges between my house and the Atlantic ocean [canvas retracted], and he's asking $10k....
hello?
N!
11-09-2005, 06:12 AM
#70
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GT v manual GTS? Put GT seats, bilstein dampers (and possibly Eibach springs into the GTS) and I wouldn't look twice at the GT. The GTS with uprated suspension will cost you $10 - 12,000 more than a GT ( at least) but will look soooooooo much better, is quicker, torquier, quieter, handles better and, in many cass, be in much better condition and have far fewer miles on the clock. I couldn't get my S4 close to the condition of my GTS for $10 K.
11-09-2005, 07:00 AM
#71
For 10K you could have an SC package, shocks and springs, and a good part of a big red upgrade. Let's face it, these are all great cars. If you can figure out how to make the later cars weigh less and keep most of the comfort and luxury, let me know.
The only drawback I can see to any of the later cars is the weight penalty. It changes the feel of the car. These cars are really under tired in the front, and should have more like a 265. I think this is why you see guys driving the early cars.
The only drawback I can see to any of the later cars is the weight penalty. It changes the feel of the car. These cars are really under tired in the front, and should have more like a 265. I think this is why you see guys driving the early cars.
11-09-2005, 10:45 AM
#72
Three Wheelin'
Quick follow up. Here is what was posted by Vilhuer last year in a post called Production numbers:
Year VIN Type K.L. J.A. 928 GT 928 GTS
1977 8 1290 175 1290
1978 8 06/77 4927 3830 1070 4927
1979 9 08/78 4534 4532
S 172 172
Total 4706 5397 5438
1980 A 08/79 2330 2823 2330
S 1865 1455 1865
Total 4195 4278
1981 B 08/80 2677 2411 2677
S 1410 1409 1410
Total 4087 3821
1982 C 08/81 1952 3208 1952
S 2558 1452 2558
Total 4510 4570
1983 D 08/82 S 4200 3999 3999 4200
1984 E 10/83 S 5095 4601
S3 673
Total 4601 5095
1985 F 10/84 S 4460 5356
S4 172
Total 5356 4460
1986 G ??/85 S 4792 2599
S4 1865
Total 4617 4892
1987 H 08/86 S4 4832 1410
Total 5403 4791
1988 J 07/87 S4 4346 2558
CS 12
SE 42
Total 3663 4358
1989 K 08/88 S4 2550 4200
GT 369 369
Total 2919 3618 3627
1990 L 08/89 S4 2091 4601
GT 997 997
Total 3088 3051 3196
1991 M 07/90 S4 514 5356
GT 254 254
GTS 12
Total 768 2037 1792
1992 N 07/91 S4 2599
S4/GT 15
GT 6
GTS 1389 1389
Total 1405 955 1132
1993 P 08/92 GTS 721 811 730 721
1994 R ??/93 GTS 384 662 470 384
1995 S ??/94 GTS 382 403 104 203
1996 S GTS 26
Given total 61221 61047 57998 61080
Counted total 61222 61037 58122 61080
InIndicates 254 (perhaps plus 6 under '92) '91 GTs and 369 '89 GTs.
Year VIN Type K.L. J.A. 928 GT 928 GTS
1977 8 1290 175 1290
1978 8 06/77 4927 3830 1070 4927
1979 9 08/78 4534 4532
S 172 172
Total 4706 5397 5438
1980 A 08/79 2330 2823 2330
S 1865 1455 1865
Total 4195 4278
1981 B 08/80 2677 2411 2677
S 1410 1409 1410
Total 4087 3821
1982 C 08/81 1952 3208 1952
S 2558 1452 2558
Total 4510 4570
1983 D 08/82 S 4200 3999 3999 4200
1984 E 10/83 S 5095 4601
S3 673
Total 4601 5095
1985 F 10/84 S 4460 5356
S4 172
Total 5356 4460
1986 G ??/85 S 4792 2599
S4 1865
Total 4617 4892
1987 H 08/86 S4 4832 1410
Total 5403 4791
1988 J 07/87 S4 4346 2558
CS 12
SE 42
Total 3663 4358
1989 K 08/88 S4 2550 4200
GT 369 369
Total 2919 3618 3627
1990 L 08/89 S4 2091 4601
GT 997 997
Total 3088 3051 3196
1991 M 07/90 S4 514 5356
GT 254 254
GTS 12
Total 768 2037 1792
1992 N 07/91 S4 2599
S4/GT 15
GT 6
GTS 1389 1389
Total 1405 955 1132
1993 P 08/92 GTS 721 811 730 721
1994 R ??/93 GTS 384 662 470 384
1995 S ??/94 GTS 382 403 104 203
1996 S GTS 26
Given total 61221 61047 57998 61080
Counted total 61222 61037 58122 61080
InIndicates 254 (perhaps plus 6 under '92) '91 GTs and 369 '89 GTs.
11-09-2005, 10:48 AM
#73
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11-09-2005, 11:23 AM
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It seems that there have been several posts about how much more a GTS weighs than an S4, or how much more the S4s weigh than the 'earlier' cars. This thread was originally an S4,GT,GTS comparison, but nevertheless let us put this weight thing into perspective. Below are the weight figures from the Tech Spec books:
3351 lbs. S 85/86
3505 lbs. S4 87-88
3505 lbs. S4/GT 89
3505 lbs. S4/GT, 90/91
3593 lbs. GTS 92/93
Note that the GTS is heavier than a GT by 88 pounds or 2.5%
Note that all 928s between MYs 1987 and 1991 weigh exactly the same - 3505 lbs. - according to Porsche.
The 85/86 is 154 lbs lighter than the MY 87+ cars. Or, IOW, the S4s are 4.6% heavier than the S and the GTS is 7.2% heavier.
These are USA weights. The ROW weights are 10kg less.
3351 lbs. S 85/86
3505 lbs. S4 87-88
3505 lbs. S4/GT 89
3505 lbs. S4/GT, 90/91
3593 lbs. GTS 92/93
Note that the GTS is heavier than a GT by 88 pounds or 2.5%
Note that all 928s between MYs 1987 and 1991 weigh exactly the same - 3505 lbs. - according to Porsche.
The 85/86 is 154 lbs lighter than the MY 87+ cars. Or, IOW, the S4s are 4.6% heavier than the S and the GTS is 7.2% heavier.
These are USA weights. The ROW weights are 10kg less.
11-09-2005, 11:57 AM
#75
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I saw a beautiful silver S4 in Clifton the other morning and to be honest with you, after I got over the shock of seeing another 928 it was impossible to tell the difference until it drove by. I admit I love the flared fenders of the GTS as I do the earlier turbo 911's. (Must be an *** man too) Other than the flares on the GTS they all look great. The GTS is a heavy car and it feels it. Although that is what makes it such a pleasurable car to drive long distances with. The 225/255 factory tires are wide enough so long as you have the correct tire on the car. I find it almost impossible to push through the turns with the 225's. The PS2's I replaced the MXX3's with made a substantial improvement in grip and the Blilstein early sport spring suspension made it all that much better over the factory sport shocks. I can't wait until the new sways are in this week as I think that will round out the car. Low end torque is amazing, better than most any V8 I have driven and the car really comes to life once you hit 4k rpms. I agree the GTS is too quiet and an RMB is needed.
Simple mods are OK so long as they can be reverted back to stock and unless you really need a GTS than I am sure the earlier cars will more than suffice with substantial savings. Although it never hurts to own a car that you can sell in a couple of years for the same price you bought it for or more. So far I have sold every Porsche I own for more money than I paid for it and from the way I see some local GTS sold around here I think that will not be a problem. Recently someone purchased I high mileage auto with damaged bumpers for more money than I paid for my pristine example only to have a PPI done after the purchase. The mechanic who did the PPI pointed out all the problems, which will cost thousands more to repair, but the buyer just said "I would have bought it anyhow, It's a GTS and they are hard to come by" That says a lot right there.
The true stigma around the GTS is the rarity. Most people have never seen one and most 928 owners I have met have never seen one either. So there is always a mystique surrounding the car purely because of rarity.
Buy what makes you happy, otherwise you are just waisting your money.
BTW my GTS weighs in at 3505.
Simple mods are OK so long as they can be reverted back to stock and unless you really need a GTS than I am sure the earlier cars will more than suffice with substantial savings. Although it never hurts to own a car that you can sell in a couple of years for the same price you bought it for or more. So far I have sold every Porsche I own for more money than I paid for it and from the way I see some local GTS sold around here I think that will not be a problem. Recently someone purchased I high mileage auto with damaged bumpers for more money than I paid for my pristine example only to have a PPI done after the purchase. The mechanic who did the PPI pointed out all the problems, which will cost thousands more to repair, but the buyer just said "I would have bought it anyhow, It's a GTS and they are hard to come by" That says a lot right there.
The true stigma around the GTS is the rarity. Most people have never seen one and most 928 owners I have met have never seen one either. So there is always a mystique surrounding the car purely because of rarity.
Buy what makes you happy, otherwise you are just waisting your money.
BTW my GTS weighs in at 3505.