No BS GTS vs GT vs S4 Comparison
11-08-2005, 12:47 PM
#46
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Harvey,
You asked if "hype" is the only explanation for the premium pricing of GTS's. I don't think "hype" is a correct characterization. It may seem that way if you list out the upgrades in the GTS v. the GT/S4, and then price out the cost of an S4/GT and the cost of mods to match (or surpass), but the bottom line is you won't HAVE a GTS. It's the symphony of all these parts pulled together under the 928 body that make a GTS what it is. How they were all designed together to work seamlessly together.
My personal car (when/if it gets done) is going to have more horses, more rubber, and better suspension than the mighty GTS, but it still won't be one. Ever.
When my stroked, rub strip deleted, Ott flared - '88 S4 pulls up next to Widom's GTS (even if he didn't have those badass rims on it) whose going to get the nod? The GTS. Even the uninitiated will know. The GTS is the complete package.
You asked if "hype" is the only explanation for the premium pricing of GTS's. I don't think "hype" is a correct characterization. It may seem that way if you list out the upgrades in the GTS v. the GT/S4, and then price out the cost of an S4/GT and the cost of mods to match (or surpass), but the bottom line is you won't HAVE a GTS. It's the symphony of all these parts pulled together under the 928 body that make a GTS what it is. How they were all designed together to work seamlessly together.
My personal car (when/if it gets done) is going to have more horses, more rubber, and better suspension than the mighty GTS, but it still won't be one. Ever.
When my stroked, rub strip deleted, Ott flared - '88 S4 pulls up next to Widom's GTS (even if he didn't have those badass rims on it) whose going to get the nod? The GTS. Even the uninitiated will know. The GTS is the complete package.
11-08-2005, 12:48 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Andrew,
I recall that someone posted factory manufacturing numbers on this board a while back and the '91 GT was more rare than even the ultra rare '89 GT. Perhaps he and/or I are wrong. In any event, I am going to chose to believe my recollection of those factory numbers, probably because that makes me feel a bit warmer inside!
If I get a chance, I will do a search for the info just for fun!
I recall that someone posted factory manufacturing numbers on this board a while back and the '91 GT was more rare than even the ultra rare '89 GT. Perhaps he and/or I are wrong. In any event, I am going to chose to believe my recollection of those factory numbers, probably because that makes me feel a bit warmer inside!
If I get a chance, I will do a search for the info just for fun!
11-08-2005, 02:08 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
You must rev a GT past 4k rpm, to get it moving. It's fun, but it feels underpowered with anything under 4k rpm. There is no such problems on a GTS, you have power all the time.... at any rpm..... It's a complete package, that's why it cost more...
11-08-2005, 03:09 PM
#49
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I like the following in the GTS: Use of closed cell foam and improved sound dampening. The wider rear track adds a lot of stability and works well with the power increase. Stopping power is huge. I've saved one dog, and one deer.
Build execution is up a notch over all of the years, improved materials as with any of the top makers coming into the mid 90's - body, paint, electrics. 10 years on and it's got a modern feel to it.
Now about the engine. I was annoyed by valve ping when using 91/92 fuel. 94 it was OK. However, due for plugs I just changed out to Bosch +4's this weekend. The existing WR7DTC plugs were in there loose, one hand to undo them. Must not have been torqued on install 4 years ago by a well known Porsche-only shop. Very strange?
The new plugs properly torqued, ping is markedly reduced and she pulls much better. Now I am impressed by this engine and kicking myself for not checking the dumb plugs sooner!
Paul
www.jageng.com
PS: We are doing service to select local cars. A systematic issue I see in service in general is not enough labor goes into the vehicle for thoroughness and adjustments, but too many parts. The root of this problem is the customers - there is an acceptance for purchasing parts, and a scourge about labor costs. It also takes concentration to do the job right and if someone young is doing the work (like most shops have) - checking over the work in detail. Again more time involved. Therefore the shops really should strive for lower hourly rates, which means lower overheads = less glitz on the facility.
Build execution is up a notch over all of the years, improved materials as with any of the top makers coming into the mid 90's - body, paint, electrics. 10 years on and it's got a modern feel to it.
Now about the engine. I was annoyed by valve ping when using 91/92 fuel. 94 it was OK. However, due for plugs I just changed out to Bosch +4's this weekend. The existing WR7DTC plugs were in there loose, one hand to undo them. Must not have been torqued on install 4 years ago by a well known Porsche-only shop. Very strange?
The new plugs properly torqued, ping is markedly reduced and she pulls much better. Now I am impressed by this engine and kicking myself for not checking the dumb plugs sooner!
Paul
www.jageng.com
PS: We are doing service to select local cars. A systematic issue I see in service in general is not enough labor goes into the vehicle for thoroughness and adjustments, but too many parts. The root of this problem is the customers - there is an acceptance for purchasing parts, and a scourge about labor costs. It also takes concentration to do the job right and if someone young is doing the work (like most shops have) - checking over the work in detail. Again more time involved. Therefore the shops really should strive for lower hourly rates, which means lower overheads = less glitz on the facility.
11-08-2005, 03:16 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by Cameron
Andrew,
I recall that someone posted factory manufacturing numbers on this board a while back and the '91 GT was more rare than even the ultra rare '89 GT. Perhaps he and/or I are wrong.
I recall that someone posted factory manufacturing numbers on this board a while back and the '91 GT was more rare than even the ultra rare '89 GT. Perhaps he and/or I are wrong.
11-08-2005, 03:20 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Chuck Z
Thanks.... probably right about that!.......or, did I say when I drive I don't keep it on the red line most of the time?
I probably don't drive my cars like your statement implies I should but they don't get babied all the time either. Nor do I put the kind of miles on my 928s you do. Thankfully, none of mine have to be daily drivers. Do I drive more conservatively then you, probably, because I prefer to keep mine in mint condition as opposed to ******* them into tired worn out examples.
From this discussion, everyone has their favorite 928 for valid and varying reasons. What it comes down to is each individuals preference about why they drive the 928 they do, some financial and some preference. Find what you want, buy it and drive in a way that makes you happy.
11-08-2005, 03:21 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Weissach
You must rev a GT past 4k rpm, to get it moving. It's fun, but it feels underpowered with anything under 4k rpm. There is no such problems on a GTS, you have power all the time.... at any rpm..... It's a complete package, that's why it cost more...
I have driven at least 15 GTSs of both tranny types........and ALL of them did not feel like they had anything on my GT as far as speed or handling. Yes they do have a bit more down very low, but none of them felt like they had 369lbs of torque.....and most dyno reports I have seen show this also. Most dyno reports also show that GT HP numbers are very close (and sometimes more) than the typical GTS. IMO the GT is very much an "understated" 928 model while the GTS is a bit overstated.
Now as far as which one looks the best?.......I would agree that the GTS is the best looking 928 hands down, but as far as handling and performance are concerned the GT is much more sporting in nature than any GTS I have ever come across. The GTS is softer and a bit more on the quiet side.....a true refined GT, while the GT can do double duty as a bit of a raw sports car when asked. It is more fun to drive than a GTS IMO.
For many years now I have had the $$$ to blow on a GTS if I wanted to....(even a Willhoit exploited version) and just don't see the reason to do it......the price vs. performance is just not there. If you like a GTS just for looks then that is a different story.....I say go for it, but it has nothing on performance compared to a GT.
11-08-2005, 03:53 PM
#53
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So basically, what people want is an 89GT with GTS fender flares, and a GTS 5.4L with GT cams for the price of an S4... oh, and the door seals and windshield trim...
I own all three and can say that the GTS is well worth the extra money, and if that money was no object you'd all be driving GTS's.
If I could only have one 928, it would be my 79 convertible 5 spd with 5L bottom/euro S top end a blower, and pixy dust...
Toodles,
I own all three and can say that the GTS is well worth the extra money, and if that money was no object you'd all be driving GTS's.
If I could only have one 928, it would be my 79 convertible 5 spd with 5L bottom/euro S top end a blower, and pixy dust...
Toodles,
11-08-2005, 04:06 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Andrew Olson
According to 928 Spec website, 263 1991 928's (S4s & GTs) were sold in 91 and 183 in 92 (mine was sold in October 1992).
That's a total of 446 MY1991 928's sold in the US.
I looked at the 928 Registry and there are 86 1991 928's listed, of which 60 are GT's. If this is a representative sample (this is the BIG IF), then we could estimate that roughly 70% of 1991 Model Year cars were GT's (seems high though). As such, there could be as many as 311 1991 GTs. Still a very RARE care indeed.
The 1990 MY is probably the least rare. Total US sales came to 620. Again, according to the 928 registry's total of 84 1990MY 928's, 53 are 5 speeds or about 63%. So if this is a representative sample, there were 391 1990 GT's sold in the US.
And since I brought it up, supposedly 60 1989 GT's were sold in the US. This also jives with the info on the registry - making it the rarest of the GTs
If anyone has information contradicting/confirming this please offer it up.
That's a total of 446 MY1991 928's sold in the US.
I looked at the 928 Registry and there are 86 1991 928's listed, of which 60 are GT's. If this is a representative sample (this is the BIG IF), then we could estimate that roughly 70% of 1991 Model Year cars were GT's (seems high though). As such, there could be as many as 311 1991 GTs. Still a very RARE care indeed.
The 1990 MY is probably the least rare. Total US sales came to 620. Again, according to the 928 registry's total of 84 1990MY 928's, 53 are 5 speeds or about 63%. So if this is a representative sample, there were 391 1990 GT's sold in the US.
And since I brought it up, supposedly 60 1989 GT's were sold in the US. This also jives with the info on the registry - making it the rarest of the GTs
If anyone has information contradicting/confirming this please offer it up.
My last post was just guessing without looking anything up. But, if in fact there were 446 1991 928s brought to North America the number of GTs is probably more like ~110-115. The sample on my website is probably not a representative sample as when I see a GT, I put it on the site but don't necessarily put all the S4s I come across (not trying to slight anyone but I only have so much time).
As for the 1990 928s, if 620 were sent to North America then a good guess about how many were GTs is probably somewhere around ~155-160.
I have 60 1989 GTs on my site and for the longest time the best guess was around ~50. I know there is no way I have all of the 89 GTs so my guess is there is probably ~75 89 GTs out there.
11-08-2005, 04:58 PM
#55
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Chuck-
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought 300+ was way too high.
And you're right, all 928's should be considered pretty rare - they certainly are not making any more of them.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought 300+ was way too high.
And you're right, all 928's should be considered pretty rare - they certainly are not making any more of them.
11-08-2005, 06:07 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by Cameron
..., if you want the sweetest 928 engine made plus the refinement of the later cars, get a '91 GT... And by the way, Amazon Green is a good choice of colors.
11-08-2005, 06:21 PM
#57
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I think you should buy the car you lust after. That is a good enough reason to spend more and forget being practical. We're talking lust here and if it is repressed, who knows what might happen! Indulge yourself once in a while and acknowledge it without apologies or shame! Let everyone else struggle with trying to make sense of it. That's not your problem! If you don't, you'll always have that "what if" thing in the back of your mind. Life's too short..
What I love most about this thread is how many 928s people have or have owned. With the market this soft for the '88s and earlier, it is easy to find yourself with with a small collection of them. The GTS costs enough to inhibit the buyer from "personalizing" them and hurting the resale value and I personally wouldn't do much other than wheels and tires on one. But all bets are off on S4s and earlier. This is the American market Porsche was trying to appeal to with the water cooled front V8 RWD set up. Putting it at the top of the heap, adding on gee whiz stuff and a hefty price forced most of us to have to be patient. The GTS represents the most true to the concept model of the 928, (the GT was the engineering depatments ultimate statement ) and exudes a quality and sophistication all its own. The others are hot rods trying to get out of their tuxedos and into some blue jeans.(OK maybe khakies and a knit polo) Ditch all the remote controls and idiot lights and even the electric windows and sunroof. Don't build the 944 and drop the price on the 928 and let it establish its own place in Porsche's line up and it would have been a huge hit.(20/20 hindsight I know. Those were tough times and Porsche took a huge risk. The marketing strategy was the rationalization for producing the 928. Unfortunately the sticker price was high enough to make rationalizing the purchase way too hard for most folks, but that has changed) They couldn't dare say it but the 928 was always their version of the Mustang no matter how many Caesar's Palace Options it had) Even if it is a front mounted water cooled V8 with RWD, it is a Porsche. But it is a watercooled front mounted V8 with RWD and in the good 'ol USA, those specs have always started the imagination going....
What I love most about this thread is how many 928s people have or have owned. With the market this soft for the '88s and earlier, it is easy to find yourself with with a small collection of them. The GTS costs enough to inhibit the buyer from "personalizing" them and hurting the resale value and I personally wouldn't do much other than wheels and tires on one. But all bets are off on S4s and earlier. This is the American market Porsche was trying to appeal to with the water cooled front V8 RWD set up. Putting it at the top of the heap, adding on gee whiz stuff and a hefty price forced most of us to have to be patient. The GTS represents the most true to the concept model of the 928, (the GT was the engineering depatments ultimate statement ) and exudes a quality and sophistication all its own. The others are hot rods trying to get out of their tuxedos and into some blue jeans.(OK maybe khakies and a knit polo) Ditch all the remote controls and idiot lights and even the electric windows and sunroof. Don't build the 944 and drop the price on the 928 and let it establish its own place in Porsche's line up and it would have been a huge hit.(20/20 hindsight I know. Those were tough times and Porsche took a huge risk. The marketing strategy was the rationalization for producing the 928. Unfortunately the sticker price was high enough to make rationalizing the purchase way too hard for most folks, but that has changed) They couldn't dare say it but the 928 was always their version of the Mustang no matter how many Caesar's Palace Options it had) Even if it is a front mounted water cooled V8 with RWD, it is a Porsche. But it is a watercooled front mounted V8 with RWD and in the good 'ol USA, those specs have always started the imagination going....
11-08-2005, 07:06 PM
#59
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Hey Harvey I'll make this easy for you, you go ahead and buy one of each, drive them, test them and then give me the ones that don't please you!
11-08-2005, 09:40 PM
#60
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This goes against how my GT's perform. Also not how the GTS I drove performed or what the dyno's I have seen show.
Originally Posted by Weissach
You must rev a GT past 4k rpm, to get it moving. It's fun, but it feels underpowered with anything under 4k rpm. There is no such problems on a GTS, you have power all the time.... at any rpm..... It's a complete package, that's why it cost more...