And the first rabbit we will pull out of our hat is... (new X-over product)
08-19-2005, 05:47 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
And the first rabbit we will pull out of our hat is... (new X-over product)
Our first product being offered is our version of the Ott X-over. We have finished development and they are in production. Many thanks to Louie Ott for the basic design and assistance. They will start shipping Monday the 22nd of August. The price is $389.95 for mild steel with 2 O2 sensor locations and no cats. With cats the price is $609.95.
I am comparing them to a Ott X-over as a base as I have found great discrepancies between sets of factory cats. A dyno chart is posted below using an 86.5' 5-speed. I will have dyno charts available this evening from an S4. There was no tuning involved whatsoever during the dyno runs, all performed on the same dyno with the same setup, usually without removing the car from the dyno. The baseline is the best set of cats we could find. I will not use marginal cats to make our numbers look better. The second run is the Ott that I have run for 2 years on my own car. The third is our X pipe. I have a set of cats that would show 15 less hp on the baseline but that's not the way we do things.
I will let the dyno charts speak for themselves. We have great peak numbers but look at the whole curve for the whole story. Gains from 2k to redline were not easy to achieve. I will e-mail anyone that wants one a high res. photo of the x-over but I won't have any postable ones until this evening.
These are made from aluminumized mild steel and will last probably as long as your 928. With 3/8" flanges and proper clearance for removing the flex plate cover, they accommodate easy maintenance.
A set of stainless strap clamps will be included with each X-over and new collector gaskets with quality hardware will be available for $24.95.
We have decided to contribute 10% of the profits from the first batch of 50 X-overs to the USO. If you don't like it, we don't care. If you don't want a percentage of your cost going to the USO, you can wait until the second batch. (We may contribute out of it too!)
We will be announcing more 928 products daily for the next week or two including our 2.5" cat back system and our cooling fan system.
I am comparing them to a Ott X-over as a base as I have found great discrepancies between sets of factory cats. A dyno chart is posted below using an 86.5' 5-speed. I will have dyno charts available this evening from an S4. There was no tuning involved whatsoever during the dyno runs, all performed on the same dyno with the same setup, usually without removing the car from the dyno. The baseline is the best set of cats we could find. I will not use marginal cats to make our numbers look better. The second run is the Ott that I have run for 2 years on my own car. The third is our X pipe. I have a set of cats that would show 15 less hp on the baseline but that's not the way we do things.
I will let the dyno charts speak for themselves. We have great peak numbers but look at the whole curve for the whole story. Gains from 2k to redline were not easy to achieve. I will e-mail anyone that wants one a high res. photo of the x-over but I won't have any postable ones until this evening.
These are made from aluminumized mild steel and will last probably as long as your 928. With 3/8" flanges and proper clearance for removing the flex plate cover, they accommodate easy maintenance.
A set of stainless strap clamps will be included with each X-over and new collector gaskets with quality hardware will be available for $24.95.
We have decided to contribute 10% of the profits from the first batch of 50 X-overs to the USO. If you don't like it, we don't care. If you don't want a percentage of your cost going to the USO, you can wait until the second batch. (We may contribute out of it too!)
We will be announcing more 928 products daily for the next week or two including our 2.5" cat back system and our cooling fan system.
Last edited by Ketchmi; 12-08-2005 at 07:21 PM.
08-19-2005, 07:23 PM
#2
Under the Lift
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Dave:
Good work. That's a healthy increase!
Sorry if this is kind of dense, but what does "with cats" mean? Here's why I ask:
I assume your three runs were: 1) stock cats 2) Ott with no cats 3) Your X-over with no cats
Does the "with cats" mean you include a set of aftermarket cats for $125 extra? Seems too cheap for that. But if so, do you have a dyno run with those cats?
Without the cats, how loud is the exhaust? I would be running an S4 stock exhaust with an RMB. That's quite a common setup, so you might try that as your S4 run. Probably too loud based on what Louis says with his x-over.
Good work. That's a healthy increase!
Sorry if this is kind of dense, but what does "with cats" mean? Here's why I ask:
I assume your three runs were: 1) stock cats 2) Ott with no cats 3) Your X-over with no cats
Does the "with cats" mean you include a set of aftermarket cats for $125 extra? Seems too cheap for that. But if so, do you have a dyno run with those cats?
Without the cats, how loud is the exhaust? I would be running an S4 stock exhaust with an RMB. That's quite a common setup, so you might try that as your S4 run. Probably too loud based on what Louis says with his x-over.
Last edited by Bill Ball; 08-19-2005 at 08:21 PM.
08-20-2005, 01:35 AM
#4
Race Car
GROOVY! I understand that Ott himself indicated that there was probably room for improvement over his famous X. You seem to have discovered that last bit of potential!
So are the dynos with or without RMBs?
Thanks!
So are the dynos with or without RMBs?
Thanks!
08-20-2005, 08:30 PM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
The dyno runs were with the factory rear muffler still installed. We also tested our cat back system on the same car but only gained 4 hp due to an overly lean condition. The cat back system gained 11 hp and 15 '#'s of torque installed on the stock cats but it was too much for the stock fuel system when combined with the X-over. We will have to try some different mufflers for the cat back system, it's sweet sounding but not neighbor friendly. I will run the spintech's on my car, a little bit of noise doesn't bother me. More later....
Hey Bill!
You are correct about the dyno runs. I haven't dyno'd the 86.5' with cats yet, missed that one in the 3 928 rolling assembly line for the dyno. (it would be a little easier if I had qualified help but I don't really trust anyone else to dyno these cars. I have gotten to the point of 15 minute hot exhaust X-over changes right on the dyno.)
Without cats and an RMB it's not quiet but it is a little quieter than the Ott. With cats and a full factory cat back system on the GTS, it's as quiet as stock. Bigs is out enjoying his right now. We found some other tuning problems with the GTS so the HP was limited to 285 rwhp with cats. I should have known when it dyno'd stock with 265 rwhp. Without cats it did 293 rwhp with the wrong X-over. We mistakenly put one of our prior attempts on it that dyno'd equal to the Ott. (I was getting tired!)
Yes, the cats are an additional $125 for the set. They are just standard 400 cpi oval cats, the Random Tech cats would dyno better but would multiply the cost of the cats by at least 3.5. They will be available for those that want them. They fit better and don't lose as much horsepower but dealer cost is well over $200 each.
BTW, the stock S4 was over 280 rwhp when we had a dyno computer glitch and lost all the S4 runs. That finished the day Friday, more this coming week.
Hey Bill!
You are correct about the dyno runs. I haven't dyno'd the 86.5' with cats yet, missed that one in the 3 928 rolling assembly line for the dyno. (it would be a little easier if I had qualified help but I don't really trust anyone else to dyno these cars. I have gotten to the point of 15 minute hot exhaust X-over changes right on the dyno.)
Without cats and an RMB it's not quiet but it is a little quieter than the Ott. With cats and a full factory cat back system on the GTS, it's as quiet as stock. Bigs is out enjoying his right now. We found some other tuning problems with the GTS so the HP was limited to 285 rwhp with cats. I should have known when it dyno'd stock with 265 rwhp. Without cats it did 293 rwhp with the wrong X-over. We mistakenly put one of our prior attempts on it that dyno'd equal to the Ott. (I was getting tired!)
Yes, the cats are an additional $125 for the set. They are just standard 400 cpi oval cats, the Random Tech cats would dyno better but would multiply the cost of the cats by at least 3.5. They will be available for those that want them. They fit better and don't lose as much horsepower but dealer cost is well over $200 each.
BTW, the stock S4 was over 280 rwhp when we had a dyno computer glitch and lost all the S4 runs. That finished the day Friday, more this coming week.
08-20-2005, 08:53 PM
#6
Under the Lift
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Dave:
This is great stuff. Wonder what the results would be with my SC as exhaust changes that open things up aren't always good for power when blown, right?
This is great stuff. Wonder what the results would be with my SC as exhaust changes that open things up aren't always good for power when blown, right?
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08-21-2005, 05:30 PM
#8
Race Director
Dave
So the Xpipe with or without cats is designed as a stock drop in..attaches to the stock S4 headers and the stock exhaust...a true bolt on? Do you have any pictures?
Brian
So the Xpipe with or without cats is designed as a stock drop in..attaches to the stock S4 headers and the stock exhaust...a true bolt on? Do you have any pictures?
Brian
08-21-2005, 06:48 PM
#9
Drifting
Thread Starter
Bill, I belive you will see significant gains with the supercharger since you are pushing the outer envelope of flow with stock exhaust. On one hand, you are using forced induction so intake flow makes minimal difference but on the other hand, all that air you are stuffing in has to go somewhere. Exhaust enhancements do help on supercharged cars. I believe it was Lag (where is he? He couldn't have been banned for this long!) that gained 35'#s of torque when he installed an Ott on his supercharged car and promptly overpowered the clutch.
Brian, yes and yes. I just want to get some good low res. ones to post. When I reduce the resolution of the ones I have, they don't look too good. I'll have them posted Monday afternoon.
Abby, our X-over will not bolt up to the headers but I can get you one that will fit to be custom welded in.
Brian, yes and yes. I just want to get some good low res. ones to post. When I reduce the resolution of the ones I have, they don't look too good. I'll have them posted Monday afternoon.
Abby, our X-over will not bolt up to the headers but I can get you one that will fit to be custom welded in.
08-22-2005, 04:20 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
Our first product being offered is our version of the Ott X-over. We have finished development and they are in production. Many thanks to Louie Ott for the basic design and assistance. They will start shipping Monday the 22nd of August. The price is $359.95 for mild steel with 2 O2 sensor locations and no cats. With cats the price is $484.95.
I am comparing them to a Ott X-over as a base as I have found great discrepancies between sets of factory cats. A dyno chart is posted below using an 86.5' 5-speed. I will have dyno charts available this evening from an S4. There was no tuning involved whatsoever during the dyno runs, all performed on the same dyno with the same setup, usually without removing the car from the dyno. The baseline is the best set of cats we could find. I will not use marginal cats to make our numbers look better. The second run is the Ott that I have run for 2 years on my own car. The third is our X pipe. I have a set of cats that would show 15 less hp on the baseline but that's not the way we do things.
I will let the dyno charts speak for themselves. We have great peak numbers but look at the whole curve for the whole story. Gains from 2k to redline were not easy to achieve. I will e-mail anyone that wants one a high res. photo of the x-over but I won't have any postable ones until this evening.
These are made from aluminumized mild steel and will last probably as long as your 928. With 3/8" flanges and proper clearance for removing the flex plate cover, they accommodate easy maintenance.
A set of stainless strap clamps will be included with each X-over and new collector gaskets with quality hardware will be available for $24.95.
We have decided to contribute 10% of the profits from the first batch of 50 X-overs to the USO. If you don't like it, we don't care. If you don't want a percentage of your cost going to the USO, you can wait until the second batch. (We may contribute out of it too!)
We will be announcing more 928 products daily for the next week or two including our 2.5" cat back system and our cooling fan system.
I am comparing them to a Ott X-over as a base as I have found great discrepancies between sets of factory cats. A dyno chart is posted below using an 86.5' 5-speed. I will have dyno charts available this evening from an S4. There was no tuning involved whatsoever during the dyno runs, all performed on the same dyno with the same setup, usually without removing the car from the dyno. The baseline is the best set of cats we could find. I will not use marginal cats to make our numbers look better. The second run is the Ott that I have run for 2 years on my own car. The third is our X pipe. I have a set of cats that would show 15 less hp on the baseline but that's not the way we do things.
I will let the dyno charts speak for themselves. We have great peak numbers but look at the whole curve for the whole story. Gains from 2k to redline were not easy to achieve. I will e-mail anyone that wants one a high res. photo of the x-over but I won't have any postable ones until this evening.
These are made from aluminumized mild steel and will last probably as long as your 928. With 3/8" flanges and proper clearance for removing the flex plate cover, they accommodate easy maintenance.
A set of stainless strap clamps will be included with each X-over and new collector gaskets with quality hardware will be available for $24.95.
We have decided to contribute 10% of the profits from the first batch of 50 X-overs to the USO. If you don't like it, we don't care. If you don't want a percentage of your cost going to the USO, you can wait until the second batch. (We may contribute out of it too!)
We will be announcing more 928 products daily for the next week or two including our 2.5" cat back system and our cooling fan system.
Congratulations on a job very well done! My hat is off and bowing low.
Thanks for picking up this ball and scoring big time. Your dyno difference between stock and my X is about what I'd expect and the additional gain with your version is phenominal. I doubt there is another bolt on mod that will give as much documented performance increase for anywhere near this cost for any car. The nice boost in low and mid range torque will make driving a lot more satisfying. These cars are already good as they come from the box and getting that much more is not easy. I can't wait to see the results of the S4/GT car test and with 2.5" rear pipes too. I have my old ugly prototype test X on my S4 and the joints leaks. I was going to make another, but I might as well get one of yours.The oval cats you offer are good for the price too. I tested those and saw only about 6 hp loss as compared to no cats. Your system may give different results, but probably close.
Bill Ball had a good question regarding freeing up the exhaust breathing on his car which has the crank driven positive displacement Eaton SC. The amount of air the compressor puts out is fixed per revolution. Freeing up the engine breathing capability, whether exhaust or intake, will show lower boost pressure since the boost level is only a measure of the breathing restriction of the engine. He can get even more power if a smaller pulley, or larger supercharger, is installed to get more air into the engine and back to the original boost level.
Nice gesture to give part of the profits to the USO.
Are you having any luck getting Dr. Gas to use properly designed X crossovers now? They should have picked up a clue from working with you.
08-22-2005, 11:38 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
Our first product being offered is our version of the Ott X-over. We have finished development and they are in production.
David
08-22-2005, 11:57 AM
#12
Drifting
Thread Starter
We are currently working on a Y-pipe for the OB's. It should give significant performance increases with or without a cat.
The current X will bolt onto all 85 & newer 928's. The cat back system is for 86.5' and later cars. We will be doing a single large exhaust for the OB's too.
The current X will bolt onto all 85 & newer 928's. The cat back system is for 86.5' and later cars. We will be doing a single large exhaust for the OB's too.
08-22-2005, 12:05 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
We are currently working on a Y-pipe for the OB's. It should give significant performance increases with or without a cat.
The current X will bolt onto all 85 & newer 928's. The cat back system is for 86.5' and later cars. We will be doing a single large exhaust for the OB's too.
The current X will bolt onto all 85 & newer 928's. The cat back system is for 86.5' and later cars. We will be doing a single large exhaust for the OB's too.
I'm also interested in any other OB performance mods available. Thanks.David
08-22-2005, 03:08 PM
#14
Drifting
Thread Starter
And some more pics
You asked, we provide.
We did get 7 more hp and 5 more '#'s of torque over the Ott on an 87' 5-speed. I will post the dyno sheets later.
We did get 7 more hp and 5 more '#'s of torque over the Ott on an 87' 5-speed. I will post the dyno sheets later.
08-22-2005, 04:05 PM
#15
Race Car
FWIW I fit an original Ott X-pip onto my '83 Euro without too much fuss. I'm a big fan of fitting the 32V exhaust options to my OB, may be interested in doing so with whatever exhaust solutions you end up selling. Depending on cost, noise, etc.
Also, I can't speak to comparison of case size and performance, but Dynatech Powercats may be an intermediary step in terms of cost/flow between carsound (if thats what you are offering) and Random Tech. I can't vouch for fitment or actual flow, but it might be an alternative to consider if demand manifests.
Also, I can't speak to comparison of case size and performance, but Dynatech Powercats may be an intermediary step in terms of cost/flow between carsound (if thats what you are offering) and Random Tech. I can't vouch for fitment or actual flow, but it might be an alternative to consider if demand manifests.