Turbo manifold - make it simple!!
05-28-2005, 05:33 PM
#1
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Turbo manifold - make it simple!!
Hello!
Im want to share the simple solution. I switched sides. I have as you can see maid the manifold closer to the engine so I can take the exaust from the turbo 3" beside it and back.
/Jonas
Im want to share the simple solution. I switched sides. I have as you can see maid the manifold closer to the engine so I can take the exaust from the turbo 3" beside it and back.
/Jonas
05-28-2005, 06:50 PM
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Yeah, ive looked at that also but there are a few accessories that will get in the way..unless you dont want them. Then again, when isnt somehting in the way in this engine bay!
Just find another matching one and your one your way!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33742
Simple solution on the surface!
What type turbos are you looking at?
Just find another matching one and your one your way!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33742
Simple solution on the surface!
What type turbos are you looking at?
05-29-2005, 05:33 AM
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Yes, thats right.
I will use a single one like Tammons in front of waterpump. Its a biggy... for further opportunitys. Its a volvo truck turbo with a 50mm wastegate. Ive heard that the bigger exausthouse on the turbo the bigger wastegate you need?
I will let you know when the tubing is dun with some more pictures. One thing that is in the way is the oiltubes to the oil cooler, but I have to change them to a more slim ones to fix the problem, but they are so expensive......now when my budget is starting to get very limited......
/Jonas
I will use a single one like Tammons in front of waterpump. Its a biggy... for further opportunitys. Its a volvo truck turbo with a 50mm wastegate. Ive heard that the bigger exausthouse on the turbo the bigger wastegate you need?
I will let you know when the tubing is dun with some more pictures. One thing that is in the way is the oiltubes to the oil cooler, but I have to change them to a more slim ones to fix the problem, but they are so expensive......now when my budget is starting to get very limited......
/Jonas
05-29-2005, 05:37 PM
#5
We appreicate your resolve. The front turbo position has been attempted. It cooks the belt.
05-29-2005, 05:48 PM
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I have done that before. If you are going the up front route, you need to build a custom manifold. With the manifolds flipped there is no room for any stock accessories and everything has to be relocated and custom.
If you use a single turbo up front and cross over in back of the engine and wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++. If you run twins up front it will heat soak the entire front of the engine and the radiator. With that twin up front setup my cam belt streched out about 3/4" in about 12k miles. Definately not worth it plus to do anything to the front of the motor, I had to disassemble the entire turbo system.
I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay.
If you use a single turbo up front and cross over in back of the engine and wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++. If you run twins up front it will heat soak the entire front of the engine and the radiator. With that twin up front setup my cam belt streched out about 3/4" in about 12k miles. Definately not worth it plus to do anything to the front of the motor, I had to disassemble the entire turbo system.
I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay.
05-29-2005, 06:42 PM
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Hei söta bror!
One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt. The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?). There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?
One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt. The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?). There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?
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05-30-2005, 12:36 PM
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I am very new to the turbo idea but why wouldn't you mount it right to the end of the exhaust manifold? It will require routing intake hoses but then there would be no heat isssues. In fact, I think you may be able to mount one turbo to each of the exhaust manifold outlets...
05-30-2005, 01:02 PM
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Hello!
Tammons:"wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++"
-Ok, I will wrap a lot!
"I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay."
-Goooood!
lillebror:"One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt."
-Nice idea! But for starters I will use default but the final assemble will be next spring so how knows......
"The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?)."
-Its inbetween.....
and the original headlight is gone. and everything else that is not very important.
" There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?"
-Maybe, I ve looked at ebay and find a few in aluminium (universal).
whall: "think you may be able to mount one turbo to each of the exhaust manifold outlets..."
Yepp, thats right. I choosed my setup due to my intercooler setup and "nice price turbo". Intercooler tubing would be longer than mine will be. But I think that if you have like to small turbos with high hp output (expensive ones I might add) the setup could be better, just might.
/Jonas
Tammons:"wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++"
-Ok, I will wrap a lot!
"I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay."
-Goooood!
lillebror:"One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt."
-Nice idea! But for starters I will use default but the final assemble will be next spring so how knows......
"The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?)."
-Its inbetween.....
and the original headlight is gone. and everything else that is not very important." There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?"
-Maybe, I ve looked at ebay and find a few in aluminium (universal).
whall: "think you may be able to mount one turbo to each of the exhaust manifold outlets..."
Yepp, thats right. I choosed my setup due to my intercooler setup and "nice price turbo". Intercooler tubing would be longer than mine will be. But I think that if you have like to small turbos with high hp output (expensive ones I might add) the setup could be better, just might.
/Jonas
05-30-2005, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gulpilen
Hello!
Tammons:"wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++"
-Ok, I will wrap a lot!
"I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay."
-Goooood!
lillebror:"One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt."
-Nice idea! But for starters I will use default but the final assemble will be next spring so how knows......
"The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?)."
-Its inbetween..... and the original headlight is gone. and everything else that is not very important.
" There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?"
-Maybe, I ve looked at ebay and find a few in aluminium (universal).
whall: "think you may be able to mount one turbo to each of the exhaust manifold outlets..."
Yepp, thats right. I choosed my setup due to my intercooler setup and "nice price turbo". Intercooler tubing would be longer than mine will be. But I think that if you have like to small turbos with high hp output (expensive ones I might add) the setup could be better, just might.
/Jonas
Tammons:"wrap everything the cam belt will be fine for 30k ++"
-Ok, I will wrap a lot!
"I will say that if you could get enough air to them and run a 3 core radiator, and drop the AC, PS pump and run the alternator up top similar to a modular ford it would probably work okay."
-Goooood!
lillebror:"One idea I have about this approach is to get another radiator that could be placed all the way up front on the car. That would give you another 100-150mm to play with and you could probably make a shroud between the turbo(s) and the engine to sto cooking the belt."
-Nice idea! But for starters I will use default but the final assemble will be next spring so how knows......
"The radiator would have to be smaller than the original if you should retain the headlight mechanism (road car isn't it?)."
-Its inbetween.....
and the original headlight is gone. and everything else that is not very important." There are maybe radiators from other high power cars that could fit the bill? BMWs and Mercs from a breaker's yard maybe?"
-Maybe, I ve looked at ebay and find a few in aluminium (universal).
whall: "think you may be able to mount one turbo to each of the exhaust manifold outlets..."
Yepp, thats right. I choosed my setup due to my intercooler setup and "nice price turbo". Intercooler tubing would be longer than mine will be. But I think that if you have like to small turbos with high hp output (expensive ones I might add) the setup could be better, just might.
/Jonas
If its a race car, and you can open it up and really move things around and get a lot of air into the engine compartment it would probably be okay, but you will spend so much time reworking everything to new locations, that you could have left everything in its stock location and built a custom single turbo manifold and spent less time.
IMO there are only a few ways to do a 928 turbo that make sense and that is not one.
Like Kuhn's (I think thats the guy) or the Calloway twin, Single in front on the passenger side like I did on my last car, single low and back on the passenger side like the rayjay setup, or twins low and back on headers with a scavange pump.
Any of the twins is really overly complicated imo. The singles are a lot simpler. Actually if I were going to do it over again, I would build a manifold similar to the rayjay setup for a T4.
05-31-2005, 08:14 PM
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It is tight under the shark's hood. You are correct....you don't need an elaborate manifold to make power with the turbo, a simple plenum design does the trick! I have to laugh at all the guys who poked fun at the manifolds on the Callaway, when in reality the S4 manifolds are really the same thing, a basic plenum design! Start with weld-els, either sch 40 mild or sch 10 304 or 321 stainless and go to town!
For a twin I would mount back and low and scavenge out...too much stuff to move up front, but hey, if you can make it work more power to ya! Headers would be nice, but I don't see it as a necessity for a good running car. You would be amazed what a simple plenum and two small turbos do for the 4.5 liter. It would work for a 5.0 liter as well I am sure. The ideal for production purposes would be cast iron manifolds, they are low expansion and hold up to the abuse really well and once you have the patterns you can cast away!
For a twin I would mount back and low and scavenge out...too much stuff to move up front, but hey, if you can make it work more power to ya! Headers would be nice, but I don't see it as a necessity for a good running car. You would be amazed what a simple plenum and two small turbos do for the 4.5 liter. It would work for a 5.0 liter as well I am sure. The ideal for production purposes would be cast iron manifolds, they are low expansion and hold up to the abuse really well and once you have the patterns you can cast away!
05-31-2005, 09:13 PM
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Before I went on my turbo 928 header building binge, I talked to several turbo tuners.
The first group build mostly 911 race cars and such. One of them is so well respected a guy went and bought a new 993 turbo from Champion and had it shipped directly to them for a build up. They typically built headers for everything, but then again there typical high end 911 turbo motor was over 40G.
I still sometimes feel like headers are a better setup mostly because a single exhaust pulse is farther from the head before it runs into the other pulses. I managed to build one spagetti junction low twin turbo setup in the back, but it was extremely complicated, and I actually had to mock it in mild steel first to build jigs.
I also talked to some other guys that built more street type setups, and there comment was since there is back pressure all the time, headers dont really make that much difference for a street car. What he did say that was important was the 2 cylenders that are adjacent and fire next to each other. In the case of the 928 it fires 6 then 5. The tubing for the #5 cyl should be 50% longer than the cyl that fires 1st or #6. That allows the #6 pulse to get out before the #5 pulse hits, at least that was his advise. according to him everything else was not that big of a deal. On my last setup, I used the stock manifold on the drivers side so that was not a problem.
The first group build mostly 911 race cars and such. One of them is so well respected a guy went and bought a new 993 turbo from Champion and had it shipped directly to them for a build up. They typically built headers for everything, but then again there typical high end 911 turbo motor was over 40G.
I still sometimes feel like headers are a better setup mostly because a single exhaust pulse is farther from the head before it runs into the other pulses. I managed to build one spagetti junction low twin turbo setup in the back, but it was extremely complicated, and I actually had to mock it in mild steel first to build jigs.
I also talked to some other guys that built more street type setups, and there comment was since there is back pressure all the time, headers dont really make that much difference for a street car. What he did say that was important was the 2 cylenders that are adjacent and fire next to each other. In the case of the 928 it fires 6 then 5. The tubing for the #5 cyl should be 50% longer than the cyl that fires 1st or #6. That allows the #6 pulse to get out before the #5 pulse hits, at least that was his advise. according to him everything else was not that big of a deal. On my last setup, I used the stock manifold on the drivers side so that was not a problem.
06-01-2005, 01:27 PM
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Yes, pulse design is better, but on the 928...there is just limited space to fit it all. Header would be nice, but I think the life would suffer compared to a cast iron manifold. Space constraints always win..unfortunately. Did your twin run remote or integral wastegates? One or two gates? I run remotes, mounted low for access...Tial 38mm units. It is a nice piece of hardware.
