Water methonal Injection 403rwhp 370rwtq
05-24-2005, 06:46 PM
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Water methonal Injection 403rwhp 370rwtq
A little long winded here but anyway...
Over the last week Ive been messing with a a water methonal injection kit on my Twin Screw SC. Installation was easy and straight fwd and with the use of my logworks, tuning the activation point was pretty easy also. The system is set to inject based on a MAF voltage. Hence my questions about that over the last week or so. I tapped the MAF voltage wire and had been logging it for a few weeks prior to installing the kit. I wanted the system to activate when i needed not just every time i put my foot down. Since the Twin screw builds boost almost imediatley a boost based switch wasnt going to work since it would trigger almost immediatly and cause some misfiring. Throughout some trial and error i found a good point i think.
The major hick up i had was last Thursday. I had been out messing with the system, changing the start voltage and the full onset voltages via the MAF controller in the kit. Pretty slick really. . I really messed up when i forgot the burn off function of the MAF hot wire(>2000rpm and 60'C temp on the motor). I pulled into a parking lot, shut down the car and i saw the green LED light on the injection system illuminate for a split second. RUT ROH!!! I knew i was F'kd right there! The engine was stopped, the throttle plate was closed and the system was injecting water becasue it was recieving the proper signal voltage to do so
Scratch one MASS AIRFLOW sensor. thats how i became more familiar with the limp home mode recently
It was a $$$.$$ mistake but after a call to Mark Anderson at 928international, i had a new MAF on my doorstep in two days. Gotta love it!
In the meantime i changed the wiring of the injection pump and tapped into the fuel pump wiring. Now when the key is anywhere but the run postion the pump WILL NOT activate even if the signal is there to do so. I no longer have to worry about the burnoff voltage activatig things.
LESSON LEARNED...the hard way, so i hope some of you benefit from that one if you try this out!
With a new MAF installed and a more reassuring wiring set up i went to the dyno today. I had mixed feelings with the results as my seat of the pants on sustained 60-130ish runs was feeling good, espcially in the heat out here. It defintiely was pulling harder.
The dyno shows otherwise... teh resulsts are basically a wash as far as im concerened.. i gained 1hp at the top and lost 4 rwtq along the midrange area.
However, the cool thing was my intake charge temp at THE FACE of the supercharger inlet as measured by the T-couple seen in the last pic below, dropped from 108'f to 63'f!! in a matter of seconds on all 3 runs
Its all on video. With the heat that i encounter out here, that was a real plus! During every day driving now i see inlet temps of 120-150 at the face of the SC once the plumming gets heat soaked in stop and go traffic. I told my self the HP and TQ gains would be a bonus if i got any, the drop in intake temp was what i was also looking for. DEFINITLEY got that. Detonation is a definite issue out here in the summer on 91oct and 7-9psi boost.
Conclusion...
was it worht it? eh, i think so. If i hadnt fried a MAF and tossed away some $$$ i would be a happier. If i had gained 10rwhp it would have been great! However, I didnt really loose any power and i think i put detonation in a slightly tighter box for the hot summer out here.
next experiment is some 116 race gas to see how that works on the dyno. My guess is timing is still being pulled from the igntion due to inaudible knock and the true HP gains are not seen yet. I wish i could log KNOCK in a simple fashion.
Anyway, take it all for what its worth.
Im happy...Im still at 400+ rwhp
Over the last week Ive been messing with a a water methonal injection kit on my Twin Screw SC. Installation was easy and straight fwd and with the use of my logworks, tuning the activation point was pretty easy also. The system is set to inject based on a MAF voltage. Hence my questions about that over the last week or so. I tapped the MAF voltage wire and had been logging it for a few weeks prior to installing the kit. I wanted the system to activate when i needed not just every time i put my foot down. Since the Twin screw builds boost almost imediatley a boost based switch wasnt going to work since it would trigger almost immediatly and cause some misfiring. Throughout some trial and error i found a good point i think.
The major hick up i had was last Thursday. I had been out messing with the system, changing the start voltage and the full onset voltages via the MAF controller in the kit. Pretty slick really. . I really messed up when i forgot the burn off function of the MAF hot wire(>2000rpm and 60'C temp on the motor). I pulled into a parking lot, shut down the car and i saw the green LED light on the injection system illuminate for a split second. RUT ROH!!! I knew i was F'kd right there! The engine was stopped, the throttle plate was closed and the system was injecting water becasue it was recieving the proper signal voltage to do so
Scratch one MASS AIRFLOW sensor. thats how i became more familiar with the limp home mode recently
It was a $$$.$$ mistake but after a call to Mark Anderson at 928international, i had a new MAF on my doorstep in two days. Gotta love it!In the meantime i changed the wiring of the injection pump and tapped into the fuel pump wiring. Now when the key is anywhere but the run postion the pump WILL NOT activate even if the signal is there to do so. I no longer have to worry about the burnoff voltage activatig things.
LESSON LEARNED...the hard way, so i hope some of you benefit from that one if you try this out!
With a new MAF installed and a more reassuring wiring set up i went to the dyno today. I had mixed feelings with the results as my seat of the pants on sustained 60-130ish runs was feeling good, espcially in the heat out here. It defintiely was pulling harder.
The dyno shows otherwise... teh resulsts are basically a wash as far as im concerened.. i gained 1hp at the top and lost 4 rwtq along the midrange area.
However, the cool thing was my intake charge temp at THE FACE of the supercharger inlet as measured by the T-couple seen in the last pic below, dropped from 108'f to 63'f!! in a matter of seconds on all 3 runs
Its all on video. With the heat that i encounter out here, that was a real plus! During every day driving now i see inlet temps of 120-150 at the face of the SC once the plumming gets heat soaked in stop and go traffic. I told my self the HP and TQ gains would be a bonus if i got any, the drop in intake temp was what i was also looking for. DEFINITLEY got that. Detonation is a definite issue out here in the summer on 91oct and 7-9psi boost.Conclusion...
was it worht it? eh, i think so. If i hadnt fried a MAF and tossed away some $$$ i would be a happier. If i had gained 10rwhp it would have been great! However, I didnt really loose any power and i think i put detonation in a slightly tighter box for the hot summer out here.
next experiment is some 116 race gas to see how that works on the dyno. My guess is timing is still being pulled from the igntion due to inaudible knock and the true HP gains are not seen yet. I wish i could log KNOCK in a simple fashion.
Anyway, take it all for what its worth.
Im happy...Im still at 400+ rwhp
Last edited by Tony; 05-24-2005 at 07:52 PM.
05-24-2005, 07:02 PM
#2
I think its great Tony. I just was looking the snow system.
The idea here is add asfety margin first, THEN go after the tuning.
The way these guys are adding power is to add timing where you wouldn't have been able to before the water/meth. You could probably do that with an SMT or some new system, or maybe add chips (ugh) to get the extra timing, but I think the idea here is that you got that charge temp reduction.
The idea here is add asfety margin first, THEN go after the tuning.
The way these guys are adding power is to add timing where you wouldn't have been able to before the water/meth. You could probably do that with an SMT or some new system, or maybe add chips (ugh) to get the extra timing, but I think the idea here is that you got that charge temp reduction.
05-24-2005, 09:19 PM
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Hey Tony,
Its nice that someone finally gave this a go. I had big plans to use the additional mapped fuel injector feature of my SMT6 to control a secondary fuel system that would inject water/meth instead of fuel. From what I gather, it doesn't do much unless you're pushing the envelope in boost. You seem to have proved that, and also proved that it kicks *** in lowering the temps. A few questions for you though:
Do you think you are reading lower temp readings simply because you now have water flowing over the temp sensor? Did the aft-SC/pre-IC numbers change much?
Why do you think you have detonation?
Its nice that someone finally gave this a go. I had big plans to use the additional mapped fuel injector feature of my SMT6 to control a secondary fuel system that would inject water/meth instead of fuel. From what I gather, it doesn't do much unless you're pushing the envelope in boost. You seem to have proved that, and also proved that it kicks *** in lowering the temps. A few questions for you though:
Do you think you are reading lower temp readings simply because you now have water flowing over the temp sensor? Did the aft-SC/pre-IC numbers change much?
Why do you think you have detonation?
05-24-2005, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mspiegle
Do you think you are reading lower temp readings simply because you now have water flowing over the temp sensor? Did the aft-SC/pre-IC numbers change much?
Why do you think you have detonation?
I thought that as well, but when that mixture is sitting in the engine bay where it is , its pretty damn hot i will say that! It was well above 65'F in the runs above. The drop in temp is probably due to the evaporative cooling going on at the surface of the temp sensor? Definitley not the temp of the water. Ive read that tests have been done with cooler mixtures and it realy wasnt worth the effort.
Even so, if its evaproating, its cooling, whether on the sensor surface or in the air around it.
I need to rig up a switch now in the system so i can do back to back runs with it on...then it off...and vice versa and i will better nail the effects after the IC and SC if any
I believe detonation can occur and you not hear it. Under full tilt the motor is pretty noisy and being in the car filters out even more. Im not sure what the level is before the motor starts kicking back timing. Even if that level is actually audible? Is it one occurance...2...3...or 500 in X amoutn of time? I really dont know. I figure if i can throw in an octane fuel that i know will not detonate at this boost level and i get a gain in HP, it tells me that timing was being pulled on the runs prior..all other things kept equal?
Would that be good logic..or is it flawed.
Ive heard detonation, thats for sure. Leave the IC pump of here for a few moments and I can induce it easily. While dependent on a few other things i can probably tell you to the nats *** the temp i can induce it on my car.
Ill try and get those answers for you as i want to knwo as well..wife and kids are home now though.
If you havent come acorss this forum, its the
for water injection as far as I have found.http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
Last edited by Tony; 05-25-2005 at 03:14 AM.
05-25-2005, 03:28 AM
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The kids are down and the wife is scrap booking...I get to go out and play.
Now, hang with me here…this is like flash backs to physics lab for me. Fun though in a demented sort of way!
The first part of this is the numbers of it all., the values as read off my K-thermocouples placed in the intake track of the SC system. The numbers were recorded on my video camera as I made the runs. I went back and then wrote the values down..next best thing to data logging I guess and is the best i can show you.
I tried to be consistant as I could with all the runs. They were done from 60-100 in 3rd gear. Rise or fall in associated temps is in the period from 60-100mph.
In a nutshell, the last paragraph may be the best read to decipher it all.
3rd gear a 60mph steady cruise
Air temp =90’F
Temp in the filter in the fender = 98
3rd gear at steady 60mph accel to 100mph
Boost cooler ON
SC inlet ………......123 to 59 ……………………………............diff=64
SC discharge …..170 to 210..then decreasing to 200.….diff=30
I/C discharge …..127 to 165 …………………………….............diff=48
Same scenarios Boost cooler OFF
SC inlet ………...114 to 111 ……..diff= 3
SC discharge …163 to 221.……..diff = 58
I/C discharge …121 to 173.…….diff= 52
DIFFERNCES of the DIFFERENCES
BOOST COOLER .. ………………...…..OFF……....ON…...REALIZED ADVANATGE
SC inlet drop in temp……………….....3’f……....59’f………..56’F
SC discharge increase in temp……58’f……...30’f…………28’F
I/C discharge increase in temp ….52’f…...…48’f…………4’F
Conclusion:
The cooling effect is more pronounced at the inlet where the mist first evaporates. As it travels through the SC then the IC the reduction in charge temp is less pronounced but it does reduce charge temps. This is probably due to the amount of mixutre left to evaporate as it travels though the inlet...SC...then Intercooler.
A 56’ advanatge seen at the SC inlet. A 28’ advanatge seen at the SC discharge….and a 4’f advantage seen at the I/C discharge.
That’s my story and im sticking to it!!
Clear as mud Mike?
Now, hang with me here…this is like flash backs to physics lab for me. Fun though in a demented sort of way!
The first part of this is the numbers of it all., the values as read off my K-thermocouples placed in the intake track of the SC system. The numbers were recorded on my video camera as I made the runs. I went back and then wrote the values down..next best thing to data logging I guess and is the best i can show you.
I tried to be consistant as I could with all the runs. They were done from 60-100 in 3rd gear. Rise or fall in associated temps is in the period from 60-100mph.
In a nutshell, the last paragraph may be the best read to decipher it all.
3rd gear a 60mph steady cruise
Air temp =90’F
Temp in the filter in the fender = 98
3rd gear at steady 60mph accel to 100mph
Boost cooler ON
SC inlet ………......123 to 59 ……………………………............diff=64
SC discharge …..170 to 210..then decreasing to 200.….diff=30
I/C discharge …..127 to 165 …………………………….............diff=48
Same scenarios Boost cooler OFF
SC inlet ………...114 to 111 ……..diff= 3
SC discharge …163 to 221.……..diff = 58
I/C discharge …121 to 173.…….diff= 52
DIFFERNCES of the DIFFERENCES
BOOST COOLER .. ………………...…..OFF……....ON…...REALIZED ADVANATGE
SC inlet drop in temp……………….....3’f……....59’f………..56’F
SC discharge increase in temp……58’f……...30’f…………28’F
I/C discharge increase in temp ….52’f…...…48’f…………4’F
Conclusion:
The cooling effect is more pronounced at the inlet where the mist first evaporates. As it travels through the SC then the IC the reduction in charge temp is less pronounced but it does reduce charge temps. This is probably due to the amount of mixutre left to evaporate as it travels though the inlet...SC...then Intercooler.
A 56’ advanatge seen at the SC inlet. A 28’ advanatge seen at the SC discharge….and a 4’f advantage seen at the I/C discharge.
That’s my story and im sticking to it!!
Clear as mud Mike?
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05-25-2005, 12:12 PM
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Tony,
Not to be a downer, but you still need to determine if the cost, complexity, extra plumbing, and weight is worth the whole thing.
Per Corky Bell "You would be a lot further ahead if you had never heard of water injection"
Not to be a downer, but you still need to determine if the cost, complexity, extra plumbing, and weight is worth the whole thing.
Per Corky Bell "You would be a lot further ahead if you had never heard of water injection"
05-25-2005, 01:17 PM
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Tony:
You can look at knocks realtime with the Spanner.
I've seen what audible knock does on the dyno. It's a very quick stepdown/step back up in power. In fact, the sawtoothing in the midrange on your dyno sheet looks similar, although what I saw was a little sharper edged. The effect is not huge, at least as I saw it recorded, but this may have been smoothed by the dyno program.
You can look at knocks realtime with the Spanner.
I've seen what audible knock does on the dyno. It's a very quick stepdown/step back up in power. In fact, the sawtoothing in the midrange on your dyno sheet looks similar, although what I saw was a little sharper edged. The effect is not huge, at least as I saw it recorded, but this may have been smoothed by the dyno program.
05-25-2005, 01:20 PM
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No downer at all...someone has to try it i suppose.
I bought it atwww.snowperformance.net (MAF kit)
and then had to buy a new MAF from Mark at 928intl becasue of my own doing i fried the first one. So that was the cost really.
Installation is a snap. took me a few hrs tops?
As far as weight, well, im the biggest handicap in my car of late when it comes to weight. Its really negligable.
Looking at whats in the kit you could build it all your self and then buy the controller from Snow seperately. Its a Sureflo 8000 series pump i believe. The rest you can see on the web site. Plumming, fittings...etc..easily had from other sources. I havent researched this so , running all over town to find a part here and there is time and thus cost as well. I decided to just buy it and be done with it...was here in a few days.
Convenience has a price!
the mixture i run is 50% demineralized water and 50%Methonal. You can by methonal buy the gallon at a race track/store probably or do like i do and go to Pepboys and buy a case of HEET. Besure to get the YELLOW container as it is 99% methonal...the red one is ISOalcahol or somehting..
The fuild lasts a long time in everyday street use. In all the runs i did last night at WOT i still had 1/4 tank left. Next little job is adding the fluid level sender. It would be nice to know when its empty.
HTH
I bought it atwww.snowperformance.net (MAF kit)
and then had to buy a new MAF from Mark at 928intl becasue of my own doing i fried the first one. So that was the cost really.
Installation is a snap. took me a few hrs tops?
As far as weight, well, im the biggest handicap in my car of late when it comes to weight.
Its really negligable.Looking at whats in the kit you could build it all your self and then buy the controller from Snow seperately. Its a Sureflo 8000 series pump i believe. The rest you can see on the web site. Plumming, fittings...etc..easily had from other sources. I havent researched this so , running all over town to find a part here and there is time and thus cost as well. I decided to just buy it and be done with it...was here in a few days.
Convenience has a price!
the mixture i run is 50% demineralized water and 50%Methonal. You can by methonal buy the gallon at a race track/store probably or do like i do and go to Pepboys and buy a case of HEET. Besure to get the YELLOW container as it is 99% methonal...the red one is ISOalcahol or somehting..
The fuild lasts a long time in everyday street use. In all the runs i did last night at WOT i still had 1/4 tank left. Next little job is adding the fluid level sender. It would be nice to know when its empty.
HTH
05-25-2005, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lagavulin
<--- That's Tony under the hood.You GO boy!
Yeah, Im going....going to try some race gas for some fun. Just to see if there is a difference. Never know until you try.
05-25-2005, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ball
Tony:
You can look at knocks realtime with the Spanner.
I've seen what audible knock does on the dyno. It's a very quick stepdown/step back up in power. In fact, the sawtoothing in the midrange on your dyno sheet looks similar, although what I saw was a little sharper edged. The effect is not huge, at least as I saw it recorded, but this may have been smoothed by the dyno program.
You can look at knocks realtime with the Spanner.
I've seen what audible knock does on the dyno. It's a very quick stepdown/step back up in power. In fact, the sawtoothing in the midrange on your dyno sheet looks similar, although what I saw was a little sharper edged. The effect is not huge, at least as I saw it recorded, but this may have been smoothed by the dyno program.
Thanks Bill, I saw that in the instructions of the "Spanner" when i had one to use a while back, but would a session on the dyno be long enough to record the events on it? I thought there was min time duration or something?
If you dyno again, it would probabaly be a good idea to try it on yours, especially since your not intercooled. Heck just go out and run from 50-60 to 130 or somehting and try to record it? uh...unless your scared of those high speeds of course.
05-25-2005, 02:06 PM
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Hey Tony,
Thanks for the numbers. If I had to make an assumption, its that the intercooler does its job very well.
Bill does make an interesting point with your dyno graph and the possibility of knock tho. Does your dyno shop have race gas? You could go there, do a couple runs w/o the cooler, then a couple runs with the cooler, then dump in some race gas and do a couple more runs w/o the cooler. See if the first non-cooler runs are different than the other 2.
I'm also curious to know how much your cobra H/E helps. ARG, this is all stuff I wanted to get numbers for in my car
Thanks for the numbers. If I had to make an assumption, its that the intercooler does its job very well.
Bill does make an interesting point with your dyno graph and the possibility of knock tho. Does your dyno shop have race gas? You could go there, do a couple runs w/o the cooler, then a couple runs with the cooler, then dump in some race gas and do a couple more runs w/o the cooler. See if the first non-cooler runs are different than the other 2.
I'm also curious to know how much your cobra H/E helps. ARG, this is all stuff I wanted to get numbers for in my car
05-25-2005, 02:08 PM
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Just another theory... You may have lost peak power on your dyno chart because the mixture of coolant is displacing some air/fuel in your combustion chamber while not actually helping your post-IC temps much. (so it doesn't add much power through cooling, but whatever power was realized gets lost).