Are we losing a Supercharging Pioneer???
05-19-2005, 08:11 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by bcdavis
I'm not trying to blame any particular person, but look at the turnclear situation.
The guy goes out of his way to make us clear turn signals, because a bunch of people say they really want them.
So he goes out and makes molds, contacts the plastics manufacturer, and gets some production set up...
A lot of the details are out of his control. Supplier delays, etc... Plus I'm sure he has a job, a family, etc...
But when there is a delay, and the product does not arrive right away, then people start
sending a string of e-mails, asking where their part is. Then people start accusing the
guy of being a scam, talking about cancelling their checks, telling other people not
to do business with him, etc...
All because some regular guy decided to help us out.
And if he gets out of the business, because he gets too many e-mails,
or too many phone calls, where are you, or future 928 owners going to
get your clear markers? Make them yourself? Your bad attitude,
and impatience, will have driven off the only vendor of a very
cool product. And if the twinscrew kits go away, because all
of the e-mails and phone calls pissed off Andy, then you have
no one else to blame but yourselves. Sure, it's his personal
choice. But doing this for appreciative customers, is different
from doing it for demanding customers... The enjoyment level
drops significantly.
I see people seem to hassle these vendors, and expect perfect service,
and a perfect product, and immediate delivery. If there is something
wrong, they start complaining. I just think that people really need
to realize that ALL the 928 vendoers, both big and small, do this
out of love for the car. Not because it is a great business.
And we should all be really appreciative that they take the
time to make products that help improve the 928.
We need to be giving them the thumbs up, instead of
constantly hassling them about things...
If you can't make a superchager manifold on your own,
and you would have to build one from scratch, and it
would cost you a ton of cash, wouldn't you take one
of Andy's manifolds, even if it was not a kit?
And even if it needed adjustments?
People keep looking at this like a business.
But it's not.
It's a hobby.
And without these fellow enthusiasts, we would not have these cool products...
We need to do more cheering of all the vendors, and less hassling.
Have patience, and show appreciation for what they are trying to do.
The guy goes out of his way to make us clear turn signals, because a bunch of people say they really want them.
So he goes out and makes molds, contacts the plastics manufacturer, and gets some production set up...
A lot of the details are out of his control. Supplier delays, etc... Plus I'm sure he has a job, a family, etc...
But when there is a delay, and the product does not arrive right away, then people start
sending a string of e-mails, asking where their part is. Then people start accusing the
guy of being a scam, talking about cancelling their checks, telling other people not
to do business with him, etc...
All because some regular guy decided to help us out.
And if he gets out of the business, because he gets too many e-mails,
or too many phone calls, where are you, or future 928 owners going to
get your clear markers? Make them yourself? Your bad attitude,
and impatience, will have driven off the only vendor of a very
cool product. And if the twinscrew kits go away, because all
of the e-mails and phone calls pissed off Andy, then you have
no one else to blame but yourselves. Sure, it's his personal
choice. But doing this for appreciative customers, is different
from doing it for demanding customers... The enjoyment level
drops significantly.
I see people seem to hassle these vendors, and expect perfect service,
and a perfect product, and immediate delivery. If there is something
wrong, they start complaining. I just think that people really need
to realize that ALL the 928 vendoers, both big and small, do this
out of love for the car. Not because it is a great business.
And we should all be really appreciative that they take the
time to make products that help improve the 928.
We need to be giving them the thumbs up, instead of
constantly hassling them about things...
If you can't make a superchager manifold on your own,
and you would have to build one from scratch, and it
would cost you a ton of cash, wouldn't you take one
of Andy's manifolds, even if it was not a kit?
And even if it needed adjustments?
People keep looking at this like a business.
But it's not.
It's a hobby.
And without these fellow enthusiasts, we would not have these cool products...
We need to do more cheering of all the vendors, and less hassling.
Have patience, and show appreciation for what they are trying to do.
Being a vendor, even if it is a hobby, is a pain in the ***, because people expect you to fullfill the expectations you set. When you don't they will bitch. Lotsa people have learned the lesson that "no good deed goes unpunished" that is why when people go into business they have a profit motive. Profit makes up for the bull**** you gotta put up with. Andy ain't a bad guy cause he didn't make any money doing this.....He should have though and that was a mistake you CAN place some blame on. The market isn't to blame for holding him at his word when he offered to sell his stuff at a cheap price.
What are you gonna say when the next guy comes along and he takes money for stuff he DOESN'T deliver....that the community is to blame because the guy failed to fullfill expectations.......What exactly are you proposing for a set of rules......They don't sound like the ones I have to live with in my business, or for that matter in my hobbies or relationships with my neighbors.
The real lesson here is prolly best expressed by Tony, he figured it out that it is likely not worth the effort to replicate homebrewed magic for the masses. Some will learn that by observation. some will pay a larger tuition bill.
05-19-2005, 08:37 PM
#62
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I have to agree with Gretch. If I am selling something and set the expectations high, how is it the customers fault when I don't deliver?
If I say I will do this, this and this, how can I complain when my customer holds me accountable?
However if I say I can deliver A & B and my customer expects A, B & C then my customer needs to cover the cost of C.
I sell for a living and selling got much easier for me when I started costing projects with a 5% bump in price for the unknown problem. There are intangibles to most any sale and you need to cover yourself. It is no fun working for free, even if it's your hobby.
I can see why someone would burn out in Andy's situation.
If I say I will do this, this and this, how can I complain when my customer holds me accountable?
However if I say I can deliver A & B and my customer expects A, B & C then my customer needs to cover the cost of C.
I sell for a living and selling got much easier for me when I started costing projects with a 5% bump in price for the unknown problem. There are intangibles to most any sale and you need to cover yourself. It is no fun working for free, even if it's your hobby.
I can see why someone would burn out in Andy's situation.
05-19-2005, 08:48 PM
#63
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Selling high performance parts for the 928 is a great way to make a small fortune.....................out of a large one ! 
As was mentioned many would LIKE to have the parts,lots will talk about the parts/project,BUT in the end very, very FEW step up and spend the money. There are now I believe more supercharged cars running than stroker cars but the total of both is a small number. The fact that resale values for most 928s is still declining (5spd S-4 ,GTS are possible exceptions) makes it hard for most to justify (and most of us have someone else to explain it to) spending $5,000, $8,000 ,$25,000 on performance especially since it typically requires $2,000-3,000 per year just to keep it running, unless you do your own work. People often ask" Why does 928 International not offer many performance parts ? " The answer, see above .....I very much applaud Andy for his efforts and obvious technical success fitting the Eaton/twin screw positive displacement blowers to his custom "pancake" intake manifolds. He has shown an alternative path and proven that it will work.
As was mentioned many would LIKE to have the parts,lots will talk about the parts/project,BUT in the end very, very FEW step up and spend the money. There are now I believe more supercharged cars running than stroker cars but the total of both is a small number. The fact that resale values for most 928s is still declining (5spd S-4 ,GTS are possible exceptions) makes it hard for most to justify (and most of us have someone else to explain it to) spending $5,000, $8,000 ,$25,000 on performance especially since it typically requires $2,000-3,000 per year just to keep it running, unless you do your own work. People often ask" Why does 928 International not offer many performance parts ? " The answer, see above .....I very much applaud Andy for his efforts and obvious technical success fitting the Eaton/twin screw positive displacement blowers to his custom "pancake" intake manifolds. He has shown an alternative path and proven that it will work.
05-19-2005, 09:07 PM
#64
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If I were Andy I would charge what I need to charge to make it worth my time, and fun again. If that charge is more than people will pay then quit doing it. Who cares if you are competetive with Brand X? You need to do what it takes to cover your cost and time regardless of whether Brand X can do it for less.
I would rather sell 2 system with a net of $100 each then 20 systems at a net of $2 each. You would be surprised how many people do the latter.
I would rather sell 2 system with a net of $100 each then 20 systems at a net of $2 each. You would be surprised how many people do the latter.
05-19-2005, 09:16 PM
#65
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I'm just saying that if weren't for people like Andy, and Carl, and MURPH, and FAST, etc,
we would not have supercharger kits at all...
Without people making clear turn signals, we would not have them at all.
Without Carl, and Devek, and 928Specialists, etc, we would not have many cool products.
So think about that when you send them an angry e-mail asking where your parts are, etc...
Do you want these people to give up, close up shop, and stop making these cool products for our cars?
Sure, the harsh world of business says that if they can't take the heat, then they should get out.
But what if they are the only source for the product? Then they are gone, and you have no source
for the product at all...
we would not have supercharger kits at all...
Without people making clear turn signals, we would not have them at all.
Without Carl, and Devek, and 928Specialists, etc, we would not have many cool products.
So think about that when you send them an angry e-mail asking where your parts are, etc...
Do you want these people to give up, close up shop, and stop making these cool products for our cars?
Sure, the harsh world of business says that if they can't take the heat, then they should get out.
But what if they are the only source for the product? Then they are gone, and you have no source
for the product at all...
05-19-2005, 10:50 PM
#66
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As a developer of products for the 928, I can saythat I fully understands Andys position.
If he were to quit, i would not blame him one bit, I cant say I have never felt that way either. But the addiction to the 928 still drives me onwards. People still want me to build 200 mph strokers and I still do it casue I love it! If I weremore "business minded"", I would focus 100% on stock and used parts, put up a supplier linked website and for perfromance stuff, copy ... ahh, sorry, "improve" others products once the marketing by others has been completed.
Fact is, selling stock and used parts is simple, with few surpirses. A nice clean business with few customer hickups....But perfroming the R&D, with the multiple cycles to get it right, and then managing a supplier chain for a perfromance products, that need to be manufacturered at low cost and, dealing with quality issues, changes, delays, changing costs, etc. make it almost impossible to satisfy all customers all the time.
I have been lucky. Of the 40+ stroker engines that I have built, only one customer was a "difficult" to deal with. Of the many stroker kits we sold, only one was a difficult, BTW, he seems to be much more realistic nowadays ... he calls often! So is it worth it ...almost of the time.
For Andy, he did a great job....none of his csutomers cars have not blown head gaskets, they make great power, have few issues, which are easy to solve, etc. No blown head gaskets here, and his psi/power to cost ratio is unbeatable! Oveall, a great kit at TOO low a cost. He knows this as I told him so! AND it is a kit. A similar kit for a 996 is 10K. We should feel extremembly lucky taht Andy did it the way he did to contain costs. Can it be improved, sure, and if Andy keeps going, i am sure it will. We have made many revisions to our cranks, sway bars, radiators, heads, etc. So will Andy!
The expectations may have been set too high, but so have all the other SC kits that have been sold, it is just that for some reason, ther eis less com[plaining. I have seen so many SC kits that took longer to sort out then Andy's that I find the heat that Andy has takeng a bit surprising. Almost like a few folks were making it a point to point out problems, and not necessarily on this forum, but privately.
The event at DEVEK was incredable, sure ti took longer, and there were issues. But the fact remains that 3 install left here running in a week. amazing! And the person doing the most work was Andy!
Give him a break. Give him a chance. Give him some credit. Dont go trying to copy his products. Sure, maybe he could have managed expectations better. His kit is damn good, may not be perfect...but he is not charging for perfection either.
DEVEK has sold a few kits so fa, and if Andy keeps going, and I hope he will, we will sell a few more. And maybe poke a few hole in the 600 rwhp space together.
This is a small marketplace, and if anyone else thinks we (the suppliers and developers) are getting rich here, best change your tione quickly. For me, it is not about the money, those who know me know what I also do, and it pays very well, it is about the people, the customers, the technical progress ... the car...the excellence of it all!
Andy is also that kind of guy, which is why I am on his "side".
Regards,
Marc
DEVEK
If he were to quit, i would not blame him one bit, I cant say I have never felt that way either. But the addiction to the 928 still drives me onwards. People still want me to build 200 mph strokers and I still do it casue I love it! If I weremore "business minded"", I would focus 100% on stock and used parts, put up a supplier linked website and for perfromance stuff, copy ... ahh, sorry, "improve" others products once the marketing by others has been completed.
Fact is, selling stock and used parts is simple, with few surpirses. A nice clean business with few customer hickups....But perfroming the R&D, with the multiple cycles to get it right, and then managing a supplier chain for a perfromance products, that need to be manufacturered at low cost and, dealing with quality issues, changes, delays, changing costs, etc. make it almost impossible to satisfy all customers all the time.
I have been lucky. Of the 40+ stroker engines that I have built, only one customer was a "difficult" to deal with. Of the many stroker kits we sold, only one was a difficult, BTW, he seems to be much more realistic nowadays ... he calls often! So is it worth it ...almost of the time.
For Andy, he did a great job....none of his csutomers cars have not blown head gaskets, they make great power, have few issues, which are easy to solve, etc. No blown head gaskets here, and his psi/power to cost ratio is unbeatable! Oveall, a great kit at TOO low a cost. He knows this as I told him so! AND it is a kit. A similar kit for a 996 is 10K. We should feel extremembly lucky taht Andy did it the way he did to contain costs. Can it be improved, sure, and if Andy keeps going, i am sure it will. We have made many revisions to our cranks, sway bars, radiators, heads, etc. So will Andy!
The expectations may have been set too high, but so have all the other SC kits that have been sold, it is just that for some reason, ther eis less com[plaining. I have seen so many SC kits that took longer to sort out then Andy's that I find the heat that Andy has takeng a bit surprising. Almost like a few folks were making it a point to point out problems, and not necessarily on this forum, but privately.
The event at DEVEK was incredable, sure ti took longer, and there were issues. But the fact remains that 3 install left here running in a week. amazing! And the person doing the most work was Andy!
Give him a break. Give him a chance. Give him some credit. Dont go trying to copy his products. Sure, maybe he could have managed expectations better. His kit is damn good, may not be perfect...but he is not charging for perfection either.
DEVEK has sold a few kits so fa, and if Andy keeps going, and I hope he will, we will sell a few more. And maybe poke a few hole in the 600 rwhp space together.
This is a small marketplace, and if anyone else thinks we (the suppliers and developers) are getting rich here, best change your tione quickly. For me, it is not about the money, those who know me know what I also do, and it pays very well
, it is about the people, the customers, the technical progress ... the car...the excellence of it all!Andy is also that kind of guy, which is why I am on his "side".
Regards,
Marc
DEVEK
05-19-2005, 11:06 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by mspiegle
My thoughts exactly. As ****ty as it sounds, I blame the community.
05-19-2005, 11:33 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by mspiegle
My thoughts exactly. As ****ty as it sounds, I blame the community.
05-20-2005, 12:17 AM
#69
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If Andy is indeed packing it in, I feel a sense of sadness.
I don't know Andy. Never met him. But from his posts, he is obviously very knowledgeable and very passionate about his SC system in particular and 928's in general.
And, perhaps I'm part of the "community" that didn't support him enough. But...
1. I wasn't aware that I - or anybody else - was under any legal or moral obligation to buy stuff just to keep someone's business afloat. And,
2. I have a pretty good income, but I have other obligations in my life that are appropriately a higher priority than buying fun stuff for my 928. I don't have piles of unspent cash lying around.
3. Dave and Garrity at Motorsport are leaning on me pretty hard in a fun, humorous way to SC my car. I'm tempted. But I'm guessin' it would cost me - with the kit, labor, and the other mods, tuning, etc. that are required - somewhere right around 10K. So, see #2 above. Plus, I'm still making payments on my shark.
And, no matter how high the quality of the kit, there's always some degree of risk of blowing an engine. If that should happen, what then? Do I get to keep making payments on a dead car? Do I get to try to find a replacement GTS engine and then pay for that on top of my monthly's? I find these to be sobering thoughts and worthy of exercising some degree of caution.
Bottom line? I'm afraid that manufacturing and selling performance parts for 928's is a lot like selling condoms to 80 year-old men. No matter how high the quality of the product, the market segment just ain't gonna provide much volume!
I don't know Andy. Never met him. But from his posts, he is obviously very knowledgeable and very passionate about his SC system in particular and 928's in general.
And, perhaps I'm part of the "community" that didn't support him enough. But...
1. I wasn't aware that I - or anybody else - was under any legal or moral obligation to buy stuff just to keep someone's business afloat. And,
2. I have a pretty good income, but I have other obligations in my life that are appropriately a higher priority than buying fun stuff for my 928. I don't have piles of unspent cash lying around.
3. Dave and Garrity at Motorsport are leaning on me pretty hard in a fun, humorous way to SC my car. I'm tempted. But I'm guessin' it would cost me - with the kit, labor, and the other mods, tuning, etc. that are required - somewhere right around 10K. So, see #2 above. Plus, I'm still making payments on my shark.
And, no matter how high the quality of the kit, there's always some degree of risk of blowing an engine. If that should happen, what then? Do I get to keep making payments on a dead car? Do I get to try to find a replacement GTS engine and then pay for that on top of my monthly's? I find these to be sobering thoughts and worthy of exercising some degree of caution.
Bottom line? I'm afraid that manufacturing and selling performance parts for 928's is a lot like selling condoms to 80 year-old men. No matter how high the quality of the product, the market segment just ain't gonna provide much volume!
05-20-2005, 12:29 AM
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Where are you guys getting this crap from?
If you can't even buy the product, then you aren't even an issue. Theres plenty of others out there who can afford the stuff and do. Hell, i'll volunteer as one who couldn't afford Andy's kit. I had to do plenty of other stuff to get a hold of one.
If you can't even buy the product, then you aren't even an issue. Theres plenty of others out there who can afford the stuff and do. Hell, i'll volunteer as one who couldn't afford Andy's kit. I had to do plenty of other stuff to get a hold of one.
05-20-2005, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mspiegle
My thoughts exactly. As ****ty as it sounds, I blame the community.
However, as I re-read your post, maybe you were taking Andy's "customer community" to task for too many unrealistic demands, complaints, and lack of support shown him by his own customers.
If that's the case, I apologize for my misunderstanding.
05-20-2005, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony
Normy, its 12hrs bottle to keyboard as well isnt it 
-That ain't in the manual anywhere Tony. A bunch of guys with gray hair [Captains...] made me drink beer the other night. It's all their fault!
Anyway, if Andy Keel has thrown in the towl and has stopped selling his supercharger kits then it's all our loss. What surprises me is that he hasn't responded to this thread. If I were in his shoes, and a big project in my life had suddenly ended unceremoniously, I suspect I'd be a bit embarrassed.
HOW many of you think that Andy should be embarrassed about his efforts?
I'm all against superchargers on 928's since I think that these are the first step toward the junkyard for Mr. Lapine's incredible design. But I love the effort that people like Tim Murphy and Andy have put into making our hobby more fun. I'll resurrect one of my beers from the other night and tip it in Andy's direction.
N!
05-20-2005, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Normy
-That ain't in the manual anywhere Tony. A bunch of guys with gray hair [Captains...] made me drink beer the other night. It's all their fault!
Anyway, if Andy Keel has thrown in the towl and has stopped selling his supercharger kits then it's all our loss. What surprises me is that he hasn't responded to this thread. If I were in his shoes, and a big project in my life had suddenly ended unceremoniously, I suspect I'd be a bit embarrassed.
HOW many of you think that Andy should be embarrassed about his efforts?
I'm all against superchargers on 928's since I think that these are the first step toward the junkyard for Mr. Lapine's incredible design. But I love the effort that people like Tim Murphy and Andy have put into making our hobby more fun. I'll resurrect one of my beers from the other night and tip it in Andy's direction.
N!
Anyway, if Andy Keel has thrown in the towl and has stopped selling his supercharger kits then it's all our loss. What surprises me is that he hasn't responded to this thread. If I were in his shoes, and a big project in my life had suddenly ended unceremoniously, I suspect I'd be a bit embarrassed.
HOW many of you think that Andy should be embarrassed about his efforts?
I'm all against superchargers on 928's since I think that these are the first step toward the junkyard for Mr. Lapine's incredible design. But I love the effort that people like Tim Murphy and Andy have put into making our hobby more fun. I'll resurrect one of my beers from the other night and tip it in Andy's direction.
N!
Frustrated? Probably.
Embarrassed? Not a chance.
Whether or not his business venture can succeed, he's still done something pretty admirable - at least to me. To successfully design, test, manufacture, and market a supercharger is an accomplishment to be proud of. Certainly something I'll never have the know-how to do.
05-20-2005, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Normy
-That ain't in the manual anywhere Tony. A bunch of guys with gray hair [Captains...] made me drink beer the other night. It's all their fault!
I have to watch out for the F/As
FYI..im out the door to preflight, ill actually be in FLL at 6am for the day..then back to LAS in the evening.
PM if you want to do a late lunch or something.
Doubletreesuites..on the waterway, next to the bridge.
Ill check my PMs in the AM.
05-20-2005, 11:23 AM
#75
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Maybe his timing belt broke? 
The 928 board here on Rennlist would not be the same without him. Not only did he make and sell a product for the 928, but he shared every bit of his creative path and findings with us, which helped lift the enthusiasm level for the 928 to a higher degree overall; at least for me. I've been a wallflower on here for several years and I can't think of any one project that has generated so much conversation and satisfaction from those who were lucky enough to get involved. Hopefully, this good thing will not come to an end.
The 928 board here on Rennlist would not be the same without him. Not only did he make and sell a product for the 928, but he shared every bit of his creative path and findings with us, which helped lift the enthusiasm level for the 928 to a higher degree overall; at least for me. I've been a wallflower on here for several years and I can't think of any one project that has generated so much conversation and satisfaction from those who were lucky enough to get involved. Hopefully, this good thing will not come to an end.
Last edited by JKelly; 05-20-2005 at 08:47 PM.