Nitrous!!
02-18-2005, 02:31 AM
#1
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Nitrous!!
First time poster so be gentle guys.
Got an 85 Euro and want to get the initial take-off to be a bit better. Has anyone used nitrous??? I was thinking about cutting it out at about 4500 rpm as that is where this thing really starts to make some decent H.P.
Cheers,
Robbie A.
Melbourne Australia
85 GPW Auto
Got an 85 Euro and want to get the initial take-off to be a bit better. Has anyone used nitrous??? I was thinking about cutting it out at about 4500 rpm as that is where this thing really starts to make some decent H.P.
Cheers,
Robbie A.
Melbourne Australia
85 GPW Auto
02-18-2005, 03:43 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
You'd have to run a bunch of nitrous to get a large off-the-line jump, but I'll be gentle since you're new... Nitrous is for pussies... Its cheater juice. Hehe, yes, that was me being nice about it 
.
Honestly, don't use the stuff, just get a roots blower from Andy (goridesno) and call it good. You'll get all the off-the-line power you want right there, instant boost and all!
.Honestly, don't use the stuff, just get a roots blower from Andy (goridesno) and call it good. You'll get all the off-the-line power you want right there, instant boost and all!
02-18-2005, 09:46 AM
#3
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Don't park it near me:
http://www.macmurchie.com/why_not.htm
(guess that won't be a problem since you're down under, but still, be careful).
http://www.macmurchie.com/why_not.htm
(guess that won't be a problem since you're down under, but still, be careful).
02-18-2005, 09:52 AM
#4
Drifting
nitrous is safer to use (for the engine) at high RPM. it is ususaly discharged into the induction at a fixed rate, which means that a greater percentage of the intake charge will contain nitrous at low rpm. your 100 bhp shot of nitrous is usualy employed in the top end of the rpm range other wise it can become a 300+ bhp (percentage wise) shot from idle and youd risk bending and melting (so ive heard). it has been done on the 928!
02-18-2005, 11:23 AM
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Nitrous has to be installed properly in order to work the best.
One of the worst things for the engine is the sudden shock when the gas/fuel mixture hits. A progressive nitrous controller can cure that by adding the gas slowly, over a second or two.
Nitrous basically adds more oxygen to the mixture. If you add additional fuel...you suddenly wind up with more power. It's easy to add more and more NOS....and more and more power, right up to the point where you break something. It's cheap to install, but not cheap to keep filling those bottles....
N!
One of the worst things for the engine is the sudden shock when the gas/fuel mixture hits. A progressive nitrous controller can cure that by adding the gas slowly, over a second or two.
Nitrous basically adds more oxygen to the mixture. If you add additional fuel...you suddenly wind up with more power. It's easy to add more and more NOS....and more and more power, right up to the point where you break something. It's cheap to install, but not cheap to keep filling those bottles....
N!
02-18-2005, 12:47 PM
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I found Nitrous on my old American V8 iron to be a rewarding pain in the a**. The filling and playing musical bottles was a headache I didn't have time for then and even less now. It worked best when I could plan and fill a couple of bottles and take them to the track to run quarters for a day.
Even still, I got only two minutes per bottle, (175 hp jets) which meant only eight or nine passes per each. These were also the big bottles, and bulky as well as heavy.
It seemed like every time I needed or wanted it on the street I was dry, or the bottles were being filled, etc. It was novel, but grew old quickly mainly because of the logistics, not as much the cost.
You probably would also have to add a second fuel line, or at least a second pump. I knew of a few guys who burned pistons running lean, after their secondary fuel delivery failed, or failed to keep up. Expensive on a 928. It will be entertaining if you wish to try--for a while. Good luck!
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way
Even still, I got only two minutes per bottle, (175 hp jets) which meant only eight or nine passes per each. These were also the big bottles, and bulky as well as heavy.
It seemed like every time I needed or wanted it on the street I was dry, or the bottles were being filled, etc. It was novel, but grew old quickly mainly because of the logistics, not as much the cost.
You probably would also have to add a second fuel line, or at least a second pump. I knew of a few guys who burned pistons running lean, after their secondary fuel delivery failed, or failed to keep up. Expensive on a 928. It will be entertaining if you wish to try--for a while. Good luck!
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way
02-18-2005, 03:22 PM
#7
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Nitrous is great. Used it for over 2 race seasons and it worked perfectly. when considering 50-75hp shot, there are no real conserns except the hassel of filling bottles (i used two 10lb bottles and rotated them) at $40 a fill, it was a bargan, considering, folks with more hp generally use race gas and that is usually over 5 bucks a gallon. (20 gal, x 3 more per gal, equals $60 for the tank)
Generally, i used an entire bottle for a 30 min road race. (only used on the straights , 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears!)
no worries on RPMs, i used a dead pedal switch, so that there was no chance of leaving the NOS on when the clutch when in!! (very KEY!!) Push bottons will NOT work and are very risky for road racing.
Mixture is not really an issue, as full lean will NOT burn pistons, its stoich (ie 14.7 or there abouts, that bring the burning temps) full lean burn is a common misconception. aircraft engine for years are run at lean of stoich for best fuel economy and reduced head temps. If you burn a piston, is because it went slightly lean and got you near the max temp range caused by 14.7:1 mixture ranges under full power. (at cruise this is not an issue, but then agian, you dont use NOS to cruise)
mk
Generally, i used an entire bottle for a 30 min road race. (only used on the straights , 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears!)
no worries on RPMs, i used a dead pedal switch, so that there was no chance of leaving the NOS on when the clutch when in!! (very KEY!!) Push bottons will NOT work and are very risky for road racing.
Mixture is not really an issue, as full lean will NOT burn pistons, its stoich (ie 14.7 or there abouts, that bring the burning temps) full lean burn is a common misconception. aircraft engine for years are run at lean of stoich for best fuel economy and reduced head temps. If you burn a piston, is because it went slightly lean and got you near the max temp range caused by 14.7:1 mixture ranges under full power. (at cruise this is not an issue, but then agian, you dont use NOS to cruise)
mk
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02-18-2005, 03:25 PM
#8
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a moron that left his bottle heater on, with no saftey. there is also a saftey on the bottle that lets go at 3000psi. Obviously, that didnt work either.
guns kill people, but you dont see folks scatter when the see one in a cop's holster, do you.
Ive seen even bigger wrecks by folks driving like idiots too. cars, guns, planes, NOS bottles, even Lithium Ion Polimer batteries, are all dangerous in the hands of IDIOTS!
MK
all in the hands of the operator. I
guns kill people, but you dont see folks scatter when the see one in a cop's holster, do you.
Ive seen even bigger wrecks by folks driving like idiots too. cars, guns, planes, NOS bottles, even Lithium Ion Polimer batteries, are all dangerous in the hands of IDIOTS!
MK
all in the hands of the operator. I
Originally Posted by sublimate
Don't park it near me:
http://www.macmurchie.com/why_not.htm
(guess that won't be a problem since you're down under, but still, be careful).
http://www.macmurchie.com/why_not.htm
(guess that won't be a problem since you're down under, but still, be careful).
02-18-2005, 04:37 PM
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Mark:
Interesting perspective and use of N2O. Pretty cool that it worked for you, especially how you used it. 50-75 hp setup would last a whole lot longer--a whole race in your situation--than the 175 I was using. Sounds like you were doing it right.
You do, however, go lean when adding N20 without additional fuel. You may be correct that you don't "burn" a piston, but you can risk uncontrolled pre-ignition and/or detonation, and heat, and beat the thing to death, including breaking lands, melting stuff, and pounding rod bearings to a pulp.
Mark knows this, but others should know that Nitrous doesn't burn. It is introduced as a cold, stable liquid combination of nitrogen (inert) and oxygen that also has a significant cooling effect as it is applied. In other words, it doesn't do anything unless more fuel is added. That additional fuel is where your power comes from. The Nitrous is nothing other than a stable, clean cooler and oxidizer.
In any event, if your secondary fuel delivery system fails, you will head to disaster before you know what's going on or can stop it.
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way.
Interesting perspective and use of N2O. Pretty cool that it worked for you, especially how you used it. 50-75 hp setup would last a whole lot longer--a whole race in your situation--than the 175 I was using. Sounds like you were doing it right.
You do, however, go lean when adding N20 without additional fuel. You may be correct that you don't "burn" a piston, but you can risk uncontrolled pre-ignition and/or detonation, and heat, and beat the thing to death, including breaking lands, melting stuff, and pounding rod bearings to a pulp.
Mark knows this, but others should know that Nitrous doesn't burn. It is introduced as a cold, stable liquid combination of nitrogen (inert) and oxygen that also has a significant cooling effect as it is applied. In other words, it doesn't do anything unless more fuel is added. That additional fuel is where your power comes from. The Nitrous is nothing other than a stable, clean cooler and oxidizer.
In any event, if your secondary fuel delivery system fails, you will head to disaster before you know what's going on or can stop it.
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way.
02-18-2005, 05:09 PM
#10
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Barry,
He's got an '85 Euro (automatic), so it's most likely a 16V LH-twin-dizzie. I haven't heard if Andy has the 16V hairdryer yet.
...
Robbie,
Make sure your first gear kickdown is working! Do a search for 'first gear start', you can install a switch so that your 4-speed always starts in first, this will help a bunch, I imagine.
Further, you can advance your camshaft timing, which will make the start of torque lower in rpms, so that your automatic will be much more fun to drive.
He's got an '85 Euro (automatic), so it's most likely a 16V LH-twin-dizzie. I haven't heard if Andy has the 16V hairdryer yet.
...
Robbie,
Make sure your first gear kickdown is working! Do a search for 'first gear start', you can install a switch so that your 4-speed always starts in first, this will help a bunch, I imagine.
Further, you can advance your camshaft timing, which will make the start of torque lower in rpms, so that your automatic will be much more fun to drive.
02-18-2005, 05:22 PM
#11
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Welcome Wozzle.
Lotsa good help here if you decide to go NOS. Make sure and have the Shark straight when you use it
Wozzle said
First time poster so be gentle guys.
For pussies? For about 25% of the cost of supercharging you get instant power whenever you want it, no need to worry about cooling issues, not parasitic...
I read a couple of books on NOS and couldn't find anything that was anymore harmful than any other 'hp booster'. Done right NOS kits *** as well as any other mod.
Barry said
You'd have to run a bunch of nitrous to get a large off-the-line jump, but I'll be gentle since you're new... Nitrous is for pussies... Its cheater juice. Hehe, yes, that was me being nice about it.
!
Lotsa good help here if you decide to go NOS. Make sure and have the Shark straight when you use it
Wozzle said
First time poster so be gentle guys.
For pussies? For about 25% of the cost of supercharging you get instant power whenever you want it, no need to worry about cooling issues, not parasitic...
I read a couple of books on NOS and couldn't find anything that was anymore harmful than any other 'hp booster'. Done right NOS kits *** as well as any other mod.
Barry said
You'd have to run a bunch of nitrous to get a large off-the-line jump, but I'll be gentle since you're new... Nitrous is for pussies... Its cheater juice. Hehe, yes, that was me being nice about it
.!
02-18-2005, 05:25 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
yes, it did work well. 10lb bottle runs for about 15 13 second runs or 30 mins of road racing , straights only!
yes, you can go lean, and how lean is the question. In my case, i was running 12.3:1 mixture. since i had a 125% increase in hp , i was in the 125% increased fuel demands. now, if the NOS fuel side, fails, i would have 125% more air, and no fuel. 12.3 x 125% = 15.3:1 DANGER!!! However, if you run a 150hp shot, thats 165%, and that would take my ratio to 20:1, and thats no problem. in fact, around 16 to 17:1 would not create any heat, pinging, detonation, etc. the real problem is partial failure, and thats where bad things happen. you dont want to be near 14.7:1, thats the "lean" folks are talking about. at 17:1, it will run cool as a cucumber, may miss a bit, and have little hp, but you wont burn anything!
think of NOS is just liquid cold air in a bottle. (proportions are pretty close to air too with slightly more o2 ). the NOS and the fuel throught the nosil, vaporize almost instantly for a cold shot of liquid supercharging. the only drawback, is the bottle refil, and button operation. In my case, that dead pedal button worked great. you can also test it, i used to push the button in gear, on the warm up race laps. it would just be enough HP to keep the car crusing at 40mph with the throttle closed! mixture lights were good, and then i knew we were ok for RACING!!!!. the flag dropped and the button went down!!!
was good for passing a car i was normally dead even with down the straight.
mk
yes, you can go lean, and how lean is the question. In my case, i was running 12.3:1 mixture. since i had a 125% increase in hp , i was in the 125% increased fuel demands. now, if the NOS fuel side, fails, i would have 125% more air, and no fuel. 12.3 x 125% = 15.3:1 DANGER!!! However, if you run a 150hp shot, thats 165%, and that would take my ratio to 20:1, and thats no problem. in fact, around 16 to 17:1 would not create any heat, pinging, detonation, etc. the real problem is partial failure, and thats where bad things happen. you dont want to be near 14.7:1, thats the "lean" folks are talking about. at 17:1, it will run cool as a cucumber, may miss a bit, and have little hp, but you wont burn anything!
think of NOS is just liquid cold air in a bottle. (proportions are pretty close to air too with slightly more o2 ). the NOS and the fuel throught the nosil, vaporize almost instantly for a cold shot of liquid supercharging. the only drawback, is the bottle refil, and button operation. In my case, that dead pedal button worked great. you can also test it, i used to push the button in gear, on the warm up race laps. it would just be enough HP to keep the car crusing at 40mph with the throttle closed! mixture lights were good, and then i knew we were ok for RACING!!!!. the flag dropped and the button went down!!!
was good for passing a car i was normally dead even with down the straight.
mk
Originally Posted by Jeff F
Mark:
Interesting perspective and use of N2O. Pretty cool that it worked for you, especially how you used it. 50-75 hp setup would last a whole lot longer--a whole race in your situation--than the 175 I was using. Sounds like you were doing it right.
You do, however, go lean when adding N20 without additional fuel. You may be correct that you don't "burn" a piston, but you can risk uncontrolled pre-ignition and/or detonation, and heat, and beat the thing to death, including breaking lands, melting stuff, and pounding rod bearings to a pulp.
Mark knows this, but others should know that Nitrous doesn't burn. It is introduced as a cold, stable liquid combination of nitrogen (inert) and oxygen that also has a significant cooling effect as it is applied. In other words, it doesn't do anything unless more fuel is added. That additional fuel is where your power comes from. The Nitrous is nothing other than a stable, clean cooler and oxidizer.
In any event, if your secondary fuel delivery system fails, you will head to disaster before you know what's going on or can stop it.
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way.
Interesting perspective and use of N2O. Pretty cool that it worked for you, especially how you used it. 50-75 hp setup would last a whole lot longer--a whole race in your situation--than the 175 I was using. Sounds like you were doing it right.
You do, however, go lean when adding N20 without additional fuel. You may be correct that you don't "burn" a piston, but you can risk uncontrolled pre-ignition and/or detonation, and heat, and beat the thing to death, including breaking lands, melting stuff, and pounding rod bearings to a pulp.
Mark knows this, but others should know that Nitrous doesn't burn. It is introduced as a cold, stable liquid combination of nitrogen (inert) and oxygen that also has a significant cooling effect as it is applied. In other words, it doesn't do anything unless more fuel is added. That additional fuel is where your power comes from. The Nitrous is nothing other than a stable, clean cooler and oxidizer.
In any event, if your secondary fuel delivery system fails, you will head to disaster before you know what's going on or can stop it.
Jeff
'86 951 2.8. Lots of extra stuff
'87 S4 5-spd. Some extra stuff (SC in progress)
'92 968 Cab. Mostly stock, and staying that way.
02-18-2005, 05:26 PM
#13
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Almost all the NEW nitrous systems include an additional fuel line to the nozzle, so you get the exact amount of extra fuel you need, along with the nitrous oxide. It is rare to see a "dry" nitrous system nowadays. But people still think that is how it is done. Just dumping this evil gas into the intake. It's not like that. Each nozzle is designed to spray both fuel, and nitrous, in perfect proportions... Most of the engine meltdown stories are from people who just plumbed straight raw nitrous into their intake. Just like supercharging, you can't add extra air, without extra fuel. It is the same as bolting on a supercharger, with no extra fuel. Not a good idea.
02-18-2005, 05:27 PM
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Robbie...'haven't heard if Andy has the 16V hairdryer yet" ..... Actually what Andy uses is not a" hair" dryer but more more like a" sausage grinder "!!
02-18-2005, 06:53 PM
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guns kill people, but you dont see folks scatter when the see one in a cop's holster, do you.
might try raising the stall on the torque converter too - it's cheap (once you have it out) and puts the motor higher into the power band off the line... works like magic... made more diff on mine than chips/exhaust or messing w/cam timing...
seen lots of NOS setups, newer stuff seems fine... thinking about it for my old gal if I can't get into enough trouble as it is... did hear the price went up on a fill though - $100+ for a 15lb bottle? hmmm... maybe it's just the dentist stuff, but at least you won't get a headache if it leaks...