Vader

Hello everyone. Recently I have been on my quest to find my dream car. Although I have one small concern. I am not that mechanically inclined. I know how to change the oil in a car, the oil filter, and the minor things like spark plugs and air filter but nothing advanced like I have been reading on here. Am I getting into something that I am not prepared for? Any advice would be appreciated. Should I look at something that is less likely to have problems? I notice that a lot of guys/gals on here are constantly working on their 928. Don't get me wrong I like to tinker around a car just like any other guy but I also don't want it to constantly be in the shop getting repairs. I want to be able to enjoy it on the road and not sitting in my garage unable to start. I hope someone can shed some light on this for me and give me advice as to what they would do if they were in my position. Thanks in advance.

Jason

drnick

there are a lot of cheap cars for sale that need maintenance which has been put off by the previous owner. if you buy right you wont need to do anything bar consumables (tyres, brakes etc) and routine servicing every 12K. absolutely bulletproof when in good order, they are very reliable as is this board which is invaluable for advice on anything 928 related.

Bill Ball

These are complex cars. These are old cars, real old cars or getting there. They are high performance, but very cheap to purchase, one of the main attractions, and what initially sucked me in. You can get a true supercar for less than a new Toyota Corolla. If you get REAL lucky and just happen to find that low mile, one owner, perfectly maintained, late model car, you might find it a steal to own.

They do require a lot of maintenance, especially as they age. The timing belt and water pump is an every 45K mile job that can be DIY, but not for most people. Things start to fall apart at 100K miles, like all the vacumn lines, steering rack, motor mounts, wheel bearings, driveline components, suspension parts. Gaskets start to leak (cam cover, cam ends, front and rear main seals, oil pan). The electrical systems start to flake out (switches, relays, ground corrosion, FI brain). The interiors age (dash cracks, warped panels, worn seat leather). All of this is fixable, which is what you see people talking about here. Fortunately the engines are almost bulletproof and the body is as strong as a truck. The cars eat tires that are fat and can be expensive. The early CIS cars get terrible gas mileage (the later EFI cars get very good gas mileage).

I got REAL lucky, and even with that I've had to replace a rear wheel bearing, axle, motor mounts, oil pan gasket (not a minor job), rear main seal, shocks, FI brain, fix the AC. Am I complaining? No way. I love the car and have had relatively little trouble considering it has 140K miles (70K of which I did). May you be so lucky. BUT you have to expect that s&*t will happen and be prepared for it. Then when s&*t happens it can be handled with much less hassle. When my FI brain went, I recognized almost instantly what the problem was, as I had been made keenly aware of this problem by hanging out here, and fortunately it failed less than 30 minutes from a 928 specialty house who immediately brought me a new one (thank you Marc). Total down time - less than an hour. Others are not so lucky and can spend days trying to get the car running again.

So, I would say that if you do you homework you can find a nice one that will be relatively less trouble to own than an average example. But these will never come remotely close to the reliability of that new Corolla. When I drive the car, which is almost daily, I drive with a big grin on my face, marveling at the good manners and effortless power of this great car, but I have my ears open for the odd sounds of a failing part (torque tube bearing whine, for example). I know it's just a matter of time.

Ron_H

I must second Bill's comments, as my experience has been similar. I keep saying I will do more work myself, but must also chose between my customers and wrenching on my machine. I am slowly re-building much of the car, though I hadn't planned on it when I bought it almost 3 years ago. All except the engine which still doesn't eat oil and leaks none after changing all the seals.
But as Marc Thomas puts it, consider that what you have is a $60,000 to $85,000 (in 1980's dollars)supercar that even today will outrun and outperform much of the other junk and pop culture cars on the road. I know of no other GT that will let you drive it 10 hours above 100 and still want to go dancing when you arrive. It swallows luggage and stuff in the back, unlike a 911. The only problem are the goons who want to race you....all the time.

If you have not yet driven one, you had better not....unless you want the bug to bite. Being a Porsche, it is unlike other cars, and unlike many other Porsches in its forgiving nature. That makes for less cussing and griping when you are tinkering with it on Saturday night, knowing you will ultimately get the damn thing on the road again for another "fix" and all will be well again. I bought it as a second car and have 2 other cars to drive. Guess which car has become the daily driver?

Poor you. Soon you'll be like us. Addicted, in debt, searching for deals on used parts, carrying your V1 around in your briefcase rather than leaving it in the car, parking miles away from your destination so no one will scratch it, spending late nights browsing around the PET catalogs and workshop manuals, and sitting under the damn thing marveling at the way it is built. Get a psychiatrist and tell him/her you are tired of suppressing your cravings for whatever neurosis these machines give us and maybe he can figure out what you can do to avoid this habitual indulgence. Try women....maybe that will work. Got to be less expensive. Or get one with spare cash and be nice to her and maybe she'll finance it for you. I knew one who was always asking if we could go for a drive and then later we ....well, you get the idea....well she knew how to get her way: just let me drive my Porsche for awhile and I was mellowed out. Until I figured it out. There is no way out once you have been bitten.

Aargh!!
Help! Help!

Vader

Thank you all for responding. I just really don't know what to do. I am torn. I have the cash to buy one but not sure if I can maintain it. I got on to 928 International and was browsing the parts section. I have to admit I got a little scared. For someone who has only done oil changes on a car and the basic maintenance I feel very intimidated by it all. I know I can have someone do the work for me but that would cost more than double the amount. I hate to spend the money on it then have it sit in the garage when it breaks down just waiting to get the money to repair. AAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH. WHAT TO DO!!!???

Jason

gruffalo

do it, do it, do it

Vilhuer

Way I see it you have three choices:

1. Forget 928 and spend money on something newer but much less interesting
2. Get 928 and have someone else do all the difficult work while you pay $$/h labor and never really learn what, why and how your mechanic did what he did
3. Get 928 and learn to do yourself as much as possible

Now which way is most rewarding? Everyone did their first oil change once. You have done it already. Now go do engine rebuild or gearbox overhaul. Of course try to find 928 that doesn't need those but be ready to do them. If you are constantly woried about maybe one day having to do those jobs there isn't any 10+ years old car in this world that you should buy. There are very few cars more fun to own than 928 while waiting for imminent disaster.

I wouldn't put much value on above if I were you. Advice is from someone who bought 928 with broken engine, as of yet has never driven it and is doing rebuild on two 928 gearboxes without never ever doing anything remotely as difficult on any car before.

drnick

which 928 are you interested in?

Vader

I have been looking at a couple. Their is one that is an 89 S4, black on black, 135k miles, 2 owner car, new wheels, new stereo, engine unknown. Still waiting to find out more details about that.

Another one is on the classifieds of this website. It's going for 11k. Red. Being sold by Stylin928. And the other one I was looking at was also black on black, 86 S4 with 79k on it.

Mike LaBranche

Buy the best 928 you can afford. Be patient and pick one with as much recent maintenance as possible. Some extra $$ up front may save you a bucket of cash down the road. Once you've found your car, the best 'maintenance' is to drive it. A very big part of the issues with these cars is because they sit for so long. Drive it often and it will reward you with many more trouble free miles than letting it sit.

As for wrenching on them... I find them very straightforward. You must have the workshop manuals, but the actual work isn't bad. You'll find yourself starting slow, doing the routine stuff, gaining confidence, making the beast happier. Soon you'll be doing t-belts, shocks, brakes... whatever you end up needing. Ultimately, it's the journey that's most rewarding... not the destination. Good luck in your search.

drnick

i think the S4 makes a good choice as its slightly more modern with ABS etc. dont even concern yourself about the friparies of stereos or alloys, make sure the body/paint, engine/mechanical are in good order along with electrical. its probably a good car if its got an up to date service history and all the major wear items are within spec - brake pads and rotors, tyres, clutch, shocks, oil and plugs, coolant, brake fluid etc.

unless you can 100% verify the timing belt and water-pump, budget for replacement. take your time shopping and look at as many cars as possible - lots of fun!

Garth S

Vader,
With these articulate, passionate confessions of commitment, addiction, impoverishment, lust, .... - how can you not join in???

Should you choose to do buy in, all the conventional wisdom in selecting a candidate 928 is well summarized by Mike and Nick .... " Buy the newest, best maintained 928 one can afford ..... "
As this is to be your first and best learning experience of what constitutes the Porsche experience - I would also keep an open view for an exceptional 16v car, MY '80 - '84: These cars have the L-jetronic fuel injection which is practically bullet proof, as is the ignition system. The engines are clearly easier to access and work on for routine items, including timing belts, hoses, etc - and are non-interference engines ( at least, for the most part), so if anything happens, the consequences are far less grave.
I could go on - but the point is that you can get in cheaply, enjoy the experience, and have a more forgiving test bed that will teach you most of the tricks required as the addiction grows - and your stable expands .... an avenue to consider ....

Vader

Thank you all for your responses. All have given great advice. My main concern is the engine. I just listed those items from the classified ad that was placed. Does anyone know where I can pick up a shop manual or maintenance manual? I saw someone selling one on e-bay for like 300 dollars. Is their something better or possibly cheaper? Am going to check out a 928 tomorrow. My question is how will I know when I come across a good one? Besides the common sense stuff of having all the maintenance updated and current. I have heard that each one drives different. Any suggestions. Sorry for such ignorant questions but I have never owned a 928 before and am glad to receive such expert advice. Thanks again.

Jason

docmirror

Dark lord,

Gosh, I hate to be on the wrong side of this debate, but I think you should look elsewhere. Both Bill and Ron make very good sense. Here's where I see the wheels coming off your dream and it turning into a nightmare.

The 928 of the later vintage that you seek are complex, detail oriented vehicles. I consider them needlessly complex in many areas(PSD for example). Many of the people here can wrench on them because of experience gained on 911s(not much comparison), Fords, Jags, etc. The cost of even the most mundane maintenance turns nearly every 928 car into a deferred maintenance nightmare. This is NOT an indictment of the specific cars you are looking at, but a general statement based on the fleet. Timing belt quote for my Sebring is $188. Quote for the 928 for ONLY the belt and tensioner rebuild is $1200-1500. Brake job on Sebring - $225 for four wheels. Estimate for the 928 - $650-900.

This is why there is so much interest in the DIY aspect of these cars. You can get supercar performance for low down, but millions per year in labor. Many of the folks on this site will share the experience and history of minor and even major repairs. In the end, it really comes down to you, in the garage, at 11:30 at night, with the car in some disarray, trying to find the wiring harness pinout for some obscure control box, that runs a engine or chassis system that you don't understand. Given enough time, and questions on the forum, you'll probably eventually get it fixed and back on the street.

I usually advise people who are not familiar with car work in general to start with something like a Miata, or early Celica. If you must get a 928, budget appropriately for outside labor to do things you can't. Conversely, make absolutely certain you have the time, and willingness to learn the chassis and spend plenty of time taking notes, applying knowledge, and asking questions.

This forum, and the wealth of DIY articles at Pirtles, and other sites make this car better suited for DIY type work. Still, it's you against the car, and I know there are some other folks in the Austin area, but most of your work will be solo. DFW has a great bunch of helpers/doers, and it makes a big difference to have another set of eyes and hands.

Any car you choose, whether it's been meticuliously maintained, or let go like many, will still need maintenance. Things will go wrong, and the age and mileage of the fleet indicates that things will wear out or fail. The difference in the 928 is that even the most mundane work on it is very, very expensive. Hence the large DIY population.

So, what do you want to do? Drive it and never wrench? If so, get a Miata, or Celica. Drive and pay for service? Keep a fat wallet. Drive and DIY? Budget extra time, find 928 friends in your area. Remember, what you are hearing on this site are a small percent of the fleet, with problems that could happen to any high performance car. Most cars will run reliably for many hours. When they break, working on them can be complicated. It's also compounded by poor work done by previous mechanics.

Good luck, I know I'm in the minority, but maybe the 928 is not quite ready for you. If you do buy one, and need help. The crew in DFW is the best for helping out. It's still 4 hours north of you though.

ROG100

Hi Jason,
I have three 928's and they are the most reliable cars I have owned - and I have owned plenty - Mercs, Range Rovers, Cadi's, VW's and Chevey's to name a few.

My GTS was purchased with a few problems that cost me about $5-6k to sort out to my personal satisfaction, however I knew that and got a great deal on the car to start with.
At first I had all the work done by my local Porsche dealer- that was the $5-6k I spent. However after that and lurking on this site I tried the maintainance myself. I started with the oil change and have moved on to TB, motor mounts, instrument pod and also helped some of my friends on their 928's do brakes, PSD and more.

I found all the work less daunting than it seems and have become addicted to doing it. I have "sort of" taken early retirement so I have the time.
As others have said you have choices - the best choice is to buy a car from a known source that has all the maintainance taken car of and I am pretty certain that car will give you good reliable service providing regular items are taken care of - by you or your local Porsche tech.

I PM'd you about the 89S4 because it is a labor of passion to me and I am having a blast bringing this car up to great condition both mechanically and cosmetically. My 928 friends will vouch (I hope) for my integrity and my efforts in returning this car to the standard I expect.

This 89S4 is from a one owner known source (I have spoken to the PO), has full service history (112K) from its first oil change, has new tires, motor mounts, TB & rollers, tensioner and water pump. HVAC totally checked out with new actuators, vacuum system check and everything working including front flaps and flappy, Porsche cert of authenticity, new instrument pod, only one tiny (and I mean tiny) crack on the dash that you have to look hard to see, everything is stock, refitting the original CD-2 CD/radio, amp and choke, new front belly pan, new rear belly pan, all fluid flushed, new ATM filter, new antenna, new digital clock, one original lighted key plus two spares. This car will need nothing.

I am taking care of some small paint blemishes and considering powdercoating the manifolds and replacing all vac lines under the manifold even though they work know.

Is this a sales pitch - yes and no - I don't need to sell this car and I would prefer to keep it. However I want it to go to a good home and out of the people who have contacted me about the car you seemed to be the person most suitable. I am asking somewhere around $13k for the car when it is finished.

As for WM the best way to go is Jim Morehouse who can supply everything on CD for not a lot of $. In my opinion much better than the hard copy which is way too expensive.