hacker-pschorr

Porsche - considered by many one of the highest engineered cars on the road.
GM - laughed at by almost every non-GM car enthusiast

So I sit here wondering how these reputations came to be. Right now I have a 928 with a blown head gasket at 92,000 miles and since 1992 replaces a few water pumps.
My 944 ate it's own camshafts after the dealer told me the cam pad is not a wear item - not to be replaced. Shortly after the same car throws a rod bearing. Never raced either - 100% stock.

In my garage is my mothers 1991 Caddy Eldorado my fiancé is using over the winter as mom drives my 2000 Beetle. 222,000 miles - 100% original on the engine. The water pump just started leaking - 8 months ago. I add about 1/4 gallon every few months. Doesn't burn a drop of oil, gets 29mpg on the highway.

Here's the funny part - this Caddy pulls harder off the line and will outrun my 928 to about 100mph. I can't say after 100mph due to the balloon tires on the Caddy, I don't feel like pushing any faster.

Here is the really funny part. Direct from GM a new water pump is less than $100 - lasts over 200,000 miles. Water pumps are not very complicated - what does GM know about these units Porsche has not figured out in 30 years?

I’m not trying to say I’d give up my 928 for the Caddy. Other than off the line performance, the two cars cannot be compared. Caddy doesn’t stop or go around corners for sh*t, but it’s not supposed to. I just find it funny how so many people in the Porsche world are so quick to bash all things American when it comes to cars. The 928 Hybrid Chevy powered cars take the most abuse.

FlyingDog

I was watching one of those cheasy car programs on TV over the weekend and they were discussing new car reliability. Toyotas won everything and MB, Audi, BMW, and Kia were the worst. Kia is pretty obvious, but the others surprise most people. Their comment was that Europeans put more new technology luxury items in the cars and don't test them first. Toyota and the other Asian companies put more simplified electronics and powertrains in their cars and test them aggressively beforehand. The really funny part was when they talked about Chrysler being very high quality and reliability right before bashing MB for being the worst led by the S-class.

I think the problem with Porsche and others is that they come up with great engines, bodies and suspensions, then just slap on some hastily designed accessories and support systems. GM and Chrysler try to design universal small parts that can be used in as many models as possible. GM has to make a good waterpump or 50% of the millions of cars they make each year will have problems. A 928 waterpump was put on 1 model that didn't sell in large quantities.

My father (a retired electronics engineer) and I were discussing car computers last week. I had to reconnect the battery on my 928 when I was working on it and an alternator wire wasn't in the right place. After lots of sparks against the fender, I don't know if I fried the alternator and all the computers. I told him all the computers that could have been cooked from the incident. He laughed that it would take very little to integrate some or even all of those computers into a box that anybody could build for $20 or so. Instead we're stuck with $1000s in 1970/80s computers that are fragile and unreliable. Porsche doesn't want to do it because they won't sell as many insanely overpriced computers, it would take engineering effort away from current cars, and people would expect the same cheap computers in their new expensive cars.

It's the same with waterpumps, rear hatch locks, guage pods, tire pressure monitors, and all the other systems that fail regularly on 928s.

Red UFO

Dude,

The porsches are run harder than the average car is.

hacker-pschorr

Red - call Jim Page and ask him how hard my Caddy is run. Nothing when compared to my 928 or 944. Well, up until I started running the 928 on the track, but that's been in the last 3 months. My parents bought the Caddy with 60k on it, once it hit 150,000 miles I started driving it on a very regular basis. I beat the crap out of that car, as long as it runs I cannot justify buying a different car. I know I could just drian the oil but it's more fun seeing how long it will last. It burns the tires shifting into 2nd gear, trannie fluid has NEVER been changed since my father bought the car.

Not to mention my Fiance's Saturn, we beat the living hell out of that car. Damn thing would not break, except the hood latch and the stereo ****.

How about the Audi A4's? They are quietly getting a reputation for defective water pumps. I say quietly because I do not see anything about this on the Audi chat sites. Between the Audi dealer up here and my mechanic, I've seen about 5 A4's in the past year with siezed water pumps and many bent valve's. Each car had less than 70k, one had 30k.

Just seams strange after all these years the German's can't build a good water pump.

Green Goblin

I agree with you Hacker, I bought a 98 Sub. Outback that was a rental for its life. I have 125K on it and no serious probs. But I got to have the Porsche.

Andy

BC

I really think each car will have something like the 928's WP.

For instance - listen to every FORD, unless its a heavy duty - you'll probably 5-7 times out of 12 get to hear a whining, grinding noise - its the Steering pump that they never redesigned from 1990 -2000 and beyond. They break them all the time, and thier death whine is a good sign. PLastic pump, and its just eats itself apart.

Red UFO

Dude a Saturn?

When they break down you just leave the keys in it and walk away.

Alot of stuff done on a 928 is prevenitive. I've only had a few problems with my 83 and its got 150k young. Very reliable for compared to my old nissan truck with the same mileage and this truck didn't get oil changed for 70k and ran like a tank.

Most of us baby these cars, and sure somethings goes to hell, but its a uber car and make to outrun a Lambo. So comparing a car that is made to outrun a soccer mom is sort of a different ball game.

Its not like these are POS Deloren or a falling apart TR7. Those people got plenty to bitch about, we are lucky.

blau928

Hey,

This is crap about the Germans not being able to build cars with good water pumps.. My 928 has over 232,000 miles as of today, and it has been tracked, granted the water pump has been replaced at suggested intervals... I know I push the 928 harder than most cars, but it has lasted to date, and does not burn oil.. I would put it up against any Caddilac, and I know it will be faster and last longer given it's already 18+ years old..

Now, I had a BMW 745 that I put at least 40,000 miles in one year of driving in Germany, and all I ever did was put gas, change the oil, and replace the brake pads and tires... This car was mostly driven on the autobahn A24 between Hamburg and Berlin at speeds that would make your Cadillac disentegrate... The Cadillac STS does not fare well in a similar environment..

I also have an AMG 500 Mercedes with over 200k miles on it from Switzerland, and it has been driven at speeds that would make the Eldo again disentegrate... Never changed the water pump on it.. I had an S500 also in europe before the BMW that I put 30,000+ miles on, and again only did minor maintenance and gas, and oil... Never changed the water pump.. Had a VW GTI16v many years ago that I put 40,000 miles on in one year in NYC, and never changed the water pump.....

I could go on, and tell you about other cars I have had that you could buy a few 928's with, and the trouble I have had with them...

My point is that in the manufacturing process, there are tolerances and design parameters in addition to the production life cycle cost that must be taken into account. The current cars are built by marketing, and all of the models you mentioned except for the 928 have had over 1 million units sold. The 928 had 60,000 units made over its lifespan of 18 years... Go try to price a Ferrari 412 water pump, or get a tune up on your 456, or 550 Maranello...

I actually used to own a Cadillac Seville by accident many years ago. I have to say it was the biggest piece of crap I ever had the privelege of owning, even if by accident from a business deal gone south.. It spewed the freeze plugs, needed all kinds of things, and was constantly overheating. Needless to say I only owned it for a few months, and then got rid of it (gave to junkyard)...

I will agree that the new models of all, MB, Porsche, BMW, and Audi are not made to the same standards as the prior models. I've spoken to several engineers on BMW and Daimler Benz, and they say the products are built to a lesser standard... Marketing the name, and financing it is mor lucrative than building a better product..... Consumerism at its finest, as if the cars never broke, the companies would be broke, as they would no longer sell any new cars...

My mom had a MB 123 body 240 TD with over 300,000 miles on it, and it used the original water pump.. Against my wishes, she traded it on a Dodge Caravan, and it has to go to the shop every few weeks for some crap or the other.... Marketing works..

Now, I just had a freak thing happen to one of my cams.... Snapped off, but no kissed valves etc.. Lucky... Yes, but I do not blame Porsche for making a bad car.. Like I mentioned earlier, my car is 18+ years old, has over 232,000, and I should probably rebuild the motor by 250k miles.. Oh, and it dynos 270-275 hp with over 200,000 miles on it.... Go do that with your Eldorado...

I will guarantee you that if you drive your Cadillac on an open stretch of road for 1.5 hours at AVERAGE speeds exceeding 100mph it will break after very few of these runs...... I've done this with several of my German cars, and not one has ever broken... Potsdam is 320 Kilometers away from Seevetal. I have done this trip in average times of 1.5 hours door to door.... No Caddy could take this, even the new CTS with the LS1.... Your old Eldo would not make it either... Funny thing is, I'm pretty certain my 928 would still do it....... I used to drive 200 miles per day in my 928 last year, and in 1.5 years, I put over 70,000 miles on the car. In this time, I only got stuck twice, 1 time the fuel pump died, and the 2nd time, I broke the cam as I mentioned....

Anyway, maybe you should drive your 928 more.... Not abuse it, just drive it more... Then the pump will only need to be changed every two years like the Timing Belt.... Then you would get a chance to appreciate it... Instead of singing about that Eldorado. And as far as that Eldorado being able to outrun the 928 to 100mph...... Maybe you need to work on your driving skills... shifting in particular... (assuming the 928 is in good operating condition...)

too tired to type more...

Adam C

These cars are toys - formerly expensive ones. I can't beleive you can talk about reliability and low cosst of ownership on something that was formerly borderline exotic.

Keep in mind that when your car was new, it would have taken a wealthy man to purchase it and maintain it. My car was $70K new, and accroding to the service records, the original owner paid lots and lots of money for far more trivial things on the car than you are talking about. It's part and parcel to affording a $70K car.

Now that car is a $10k car but the parts really aren't any cheaper. While the purchase price is reasonable, I still think owning and maintaining a 928 is truly beyond the financial capabilities of many of the people that buy them.

hacker-pschorr

You hit the nail on the head with this one.

Ok - I didn't mean to give the impression that Porsche's are not one of the highest engineerd cars ever made, I still think they are. Just an observation made when shopping for parts on the old Caddy. That is why I brought up the Audi in a previous post - Caddy vs Audi is very much apples to apples or even my Caddy to a 944 - price difference was about $8k new back in 1991.

Even the RMB issue on the new water cooled motors is a good example. There is not excuse for this kind of failure on so many cars when you consider the amount of R&D that is done.

Z

German Cars Disappoint Car Owners

Gretch

Now THAT, is telling......especially given the Germans are such proud bastards......

No matter....I still am not going to drive a Japanese car.......Hell I would rather drive one made in England.......Shows you how much common sense I have......

BC

They are losing ground, absolutley.

Toyota will soon rule the world - everyone come to them for production technology, etc. They built this empire on extreme quality standards, imho, and it *could* be fact if I were to check.

Porsche is an interesting animal. The 993 was almost hand built - we know the 928 was mostly handbuilt as well. They were losing money hand over fist - so they had to change. Now you have much more "global" cars. Lamborgini is now a very fast audi.

Ferrari is the last great position of "cottage industry cars".... BU that is wholy of-topic.

I bought my wife an MDX - Acura. Its almost seamless in its operation - lifeless as well, but she doesn't care. Sometimes, when I drive it - I wonder why I spend so much time and energy on the 928 - but thats only because I haven't sat in one recently...

ViribusUnits

Since the 70s GM has seemingly been redoing their quality control and engineering department. Everything they do is of the lowest acceptable quality, but consumer expetations are changeing.

If your car or truck won't make 100,000 miles on the origional engine and transmittion, in daily driveing, it is accepted that something is wrong with the design. Also, American's don't like to do preventative maintance. So the cars are designed to be as maintance free as possible. 100,000 mile timeing belts, pointless, distributerless ignition systems, advanced digital engine mannagement, and tighter tollorances mean that even such standard stuff as the GM 305 ain't the GM 305 of 10 years ago.

IMHO, GM's engine and drive trains are often damn near bullet proof. Sometimes they screw up, but over all they work well. Acceptable, if not exemplary, and that's what GM is all about.

hacker-pschorr

The world is coming to an end:

1. A Japanese car company is climbing into the "Big 3" slot
2. German car owners are complaining about reliablity
3. Ferrari now builds a reliable car.