Auto vs Manual
03-18-2004, 12:56 PM
#1
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Auto vs Manual
I've never thought of the S4 auto as any less of a car than the 5-speed, and have owned both. And driven both extensively. So ......
I've driven a 1984 auto and was pretty impressed with its power to the ground as it automatically shifted through to 3rd ....... So .....
I recently, for the first time ever, drove a 1984 5-speed. Wow. WHOA! That car needs an auto torque converter sooooo badly. I loved the response of the short 1st gear, but the moment she hit second, it was as if I'd gone to fourth in my S4 5-speed. Unbelievable. This is one instance where I personally, IMHO, and this is probably just me .... would say the auto has it.
I've driven a 1984 auto and was pretty impressed with its power to the ground as it automatically shifted through to 3rd ....... So .....
I recently, for the first time ever, drove a 1984 5-speed. Wow. WHOA! That car needs an auto torque converter sooooo badly. I loved the response of the short 1st gear, but the moment she hit second, it was as if I'd gone to fourth in my S4 5-speed. Unbelievable. This is one instance where I personally, IMHO, and this is probably just me .... would say the auto has it.
03-18-2004, 01:04 PM
#2
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I can't wait to run the boost on top of this 3 spd auto and feel the car in the upper 1/2 of that ultra wide 1st gear. Still though, I would take the standard any day of the week, but as we all know you can't always have your cake and eat it too.
03-18-2004, 01:15 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
This was my perspective about a year ago after selling my '90 S4 for my current '91 GT. I have done some upgrades to the GT since then, but here were my notes fresh off of the auto and into the stick.
------------------------->
S4 vs GT
I have been using a '90 S4 as my daily driver for the last 3 years. I have just recently purchased a '91 GT (my new daily driver). Some of the differences that I describe are related to model year changes but most are S4 vs GT. As a note, I had to move the Sumitomo rubber and Mille Miglia wheels from my S4 to the GT due to flat spots on GT rubber from previous owners frequent storage of the GT. This eliminates difference in wheels / rubber in my subjective comparison. Both cars are stock setups on original springs/shocks. I purchased the S4 with 50k miles on the clock and it now has 78k miles. The GT currently has 65k miles.
S4 Summary - I spent considerable effort early in the ownership experience to get the tranny set up the way I wanted. Tranmission cable adjustments provide 1st gear starts at about 1/3 throtte. Installation of parallel kickdown switch did not provide me with 1st gear starts, but did provide me with superb highway cruising transmission response. I consider the set up to be near perfect in a grand touring situation. With the parallel kickdown switch engaged at common highway speeds (50-80 mph), the autobox downshifts 1 gear immediately in response to your foot. A full 2 gear kickdown (from 4th to 2nd) is also available by flooring it (up to about 75mph) and holds the upshift 'til a bit over 80 mph. In this scenario, the car jumps forward as if everyone was standing still. Here, the S4 feels more responsive than the GT. The one compromise that I had to make is that the 3 - 4 upshift is overly firm (due to the cable adjustments)
Other comments:
- great car
- easier to drive in stop and go than GT
- sluggish 2nd gear starts without deliberate throttle input to get 1st gear start
- superb highway tranny response with parallel kickdown switch engaged for 1 or 2 gear downshifts on demand - near perfect I would say
- slushbox isn't a slushbox. Once set up right, it snaps off shifts (up or down) perfectly (save the 2nd gear starts)
- best on center steering
- no cupholder required
GT Summary - From a dead stop, it is noticeably quicker than the S4. I was expecting the shift linkage to be a bit akward and heavy. I was expecting the clutch to be heavy. I find neither to be true. The shifter is very precise in my opinion (my PPI required the shifter cup to be replaced so mine is like new right now - maybe this will change over time). I do not consider the shift throw distance to be too long. I find the clutch to be very linear and although not light, I would not call it heavy. Stop and go traffic is not a problem for me. The 'no cup holder' was not an issue for me with the auto, but is an issue in the GT. Cellphone management is also more of a problem even though I use a headphone set up. I have not learned how to do full hard starts yet, but I have only tried twice. I generated quite a bit of 1st gear wheel hop under full throttle acceleration both times. This is a driver issue and I need to experiment a bit more.
In highway cruising situations, I would need to do a 5 - 3 downshift to get a response similar to the S4 in terms of jump. Even then, I don't think it is quite as fast as the S4 in that 50 - 80 MPH range until the S4 takes 3rd gear and it's acceleration rate drops off a bit. After that, I suspect that the GT would outrun the S4. The S4 is just right in that 2nd gear sweetspot at the highway speeds that us commuters use in S. Florida.
- great car
- feels lighter and quicker than S4 due to 5 speed
- feels lighter than S4 from a handling perspective (I believe a lot of this has to do with the increased power steering boost on the '91 vs '90 model year) - gives me the perception of better turn in capability or is it real?
- the S4 is a fast car - the GT is fast but also quick off the line
- engine is more peaky. Over 4000 rpm this thing just screams.
- follows highway groves very slightly - something that my S4 doesn't do - any ideas as to why?
- quieter at cruising speed (probably due to '91 model year having improved sound deadening material in rear wheel wells and additional door seals
- GT is supposed to have a firmer suspension, but I cannot feal a difference in day to day driving (aside from perceived turn in response stated above
-cup holder required
Both cars are superb!
------------------------->
S4 vs GT
I have been using a '90 S4 as my daily driver for the last 3 years. I have just recently purchased a '91 GT (my new daily driver). Some of the differences that I describe are related to model year changes but most are S4 vs GT. As a note, I had to move the Sumitomo rubber and Mille Miglia wheels from my S4 to the GT due to flat spots on GT rubber from previous owners frequent storage of the GT. This eliminates difference in wheels / rubber in my subjective comparison. Both cars are stock setups on original springs/shocks. I purchased the S4 with 50k miles on the clock and it now has 78k miles. The GT currently has 65k miles.
S4 Summary - I spent considerable effort early in the ownership experience to get the tranny set up the way I wanted. Tranmission cable adjustments provide 1st gear starts at about 1/3 throtte. Installation of parallel kickdown switch did not provide me with 1st gear starts, but did provide me with superb highway cruising transmission response. I consider the set up to be near perfect in a grand touring situation. With the parallel kickdown switch engaged at common highway speeds (50-80 mph), the autobox downshifts 1 gear immediately in response to your foot. A full 2 gear kickdown (from 4th to 2nd) is also available by flooring it (up to about 75mph) and holds the upshift 'til a bit over 80 mph. In this scenario, the car jumps forward as if everyone was standing still. Here, the S4 feels more responsive than the GT. The one compromise that I had to make is that the 3 - 4 upshift is overly firm (due to the cable adjustments)
Other comments:
- great car
- easier to drive in stop and go than GT
- sluggish 2nd gear starts without deliberate throttle input to get 1st gear start
- superb highway tranny response with parallel kickdown switch engaged for 1 or 2 gear downshifts on demand - near perfect I would say
- slushbox isn't a slushbox. Once set up right, it snaps off shifts (up or down) perfectly (save the 2nd gear starts)
- best on center steering
- no cupholder required
GT Summary - From a dead stop, it is noticeably quicker than the S4. I was expecting the shift linkage to be a bit akward and heavy. I was expecting the clutch to be heavy. I find neither to be true. The shifter is very precise in my opinion (my PPI required the shifter cup to be replaced so mine is like new right now - maybe this will change over time). I do not consider the shift throw distance to be too long. I find the clutch to be very linear and although not light, I would not call it heavy. Stop and go traffic is not a problem for me. The 'no cup holder' was not an issue for me with the auto, but is an issue in the GT. Cellphone management is also more of a problem even though I use a headphone set up. I have not learned how to do full hard starts yet, but I have only tried twice. I generated quite a bit of 1st gear wheel hop under full throttle acceleration both times. This is a driver issue and I need to experiment a bit more.
In highway cruising situations, I would need to do a 5 - 3 downshift to get a response similar to the S4 in terms of jump. Even then, I don't think it is quite as fast as the S4 in that 50 - 80 MPH range until the S4 takes 3rd gear and it's acceleration rate drops off a bit. After that, I suspect that the GT would outrun the S4. The S4 is just right in that 2nd gear sweetspot at the highway speeds that us commuters use in S. Florida.
- great car
- feels lighter and quicker than S4 due to 5 speed
- feels lighter than S4 from a handling perspective (I believe a lot of this has to do with the increased power steering boost on the '91 vs '90 model year) - gives me the perception of better turn in capability or is it real?
- the S4 is a fast car - the GT is fast but also quick off the line
- engine is more peaky. Over 4000 rpm this thing just screams.
- follows highway groves very slightly - something that my S4 doesn't do - any ideas as to why?
- quieter at cruising speed (probably due to '91 model year having improved sound deadening material in rear wheel wells and additional door seals
- GT is supposed to have a firmer suspension, but I cannot feal a difference in day to day driving (aside from perceived turn in response stated above
-cup holder required
Both cars are superb!
03-18-2004, 01:18 PM
#5
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Heinrich if you shift out of first at 6,000 rpm or so second gear should be pulling quite well indeed . This Fall Sharktoberfest make the pilgrimage to Anaheim and we will go for a "ride" in the brown , very brown 1980 ........... of course if "Goridesno" Andy has his way it may not be a fair test . 
However if we get 100 or so 928s like last year I think there will be an 83-84 5speed or two or three or four ....
However if we get 100 or so 928s like last year I think there will be an 83-84 5speed or two or three or four ....
03-18-2004, 01:31 PM
#7
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Well Jim you may be right ... one experience certainly could be particular to that car ... it just felt very much like too-tall gearing on 2nd. Also possible the car was not tuned right and 1st was just feeling good because of the short nature of it. I will take you up on your offer of a ride in the very brown thang :-)
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03-18-2004, 02:14 PM
#8
My 84 5-sp (dearly departed) absolutely ripped.....that thing would lay rubber in first and second easily.....torque was absolutely amazing...dyno tested at 240 ft-lbs to the wheels...only 190HP though.....
When i bought the 87S4..it felt like an absolute slug and I thought the 84 would eat it for lunch...that was until I started to drive the S4 like a manual..get 1st gear starts...and it just went...
You must have had a bad one H..
Later,
Tom
When i bought the 87S4..it felt like an absolute slug and I thought the 84 would eat it for lunch...that was until I started to drive the S4 like a manual..get 1st gear starts...and it just went...
You must have had a bad one H..
Later,
Tom
03-18-2004, 02:15 PM
#9
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Cameron ....." Over 4000 rpm this thing just screams " correct which means to get the 5 spd working keep it over the 4,000 rpm sweet spot while accelerating . Very nice comparison of your two cars ........Both are superb !! Now if we can determine whether Heinrich did in fact shift into 4 th or possibly out of first at 2,000 RPM we may get to the bottom of this ! I would agree the automatic works very , very well . You push on the gas pedal and it goes ............. especially with the adjustments and " kickdown " switch . For those with a 5 speed , 3 rd gear is "passing gear" up to about 90 mph (a bit more for USA 2.20 boxes 4.24 ratio vs 4.88)
we may get to the bottom of this ! I would agree the automatic works very , very well . You push on the gas pedal and it goes ............. especially with the adjustments and " kickdown " switch . For those with a 5 speed , 3 rd gear is "passing gear" up to about 90 mph (a bit more for USA 2.20 boxes 4.24 ratio vs 4.88)
03-18-2004, 02:23 PM
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Not sure I agree about GT being "dead" below 4k. OK I am comparing mentally Auto versus my SE and not a GT. But yes they do scream above 4k. but since I put a JDSPorsche.com rebuilt MAF in my SE it is noticeably quick at low revs even say 30mph in 5th gear (you have a choice of all 5 gears at 30mph.
If it lacks low to midrange snappiness especially at partial throttle openings the MAF has to be time expired.
Jon
Black SE
If it lacks low to midrange snappiness especially at partial throttle openings the MAF has to be time expired.
Jon
Black SE
03-18-2004, 02:56 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
I don't find the acceleration to disapere in 2nd.
What you have to do is hold on to the engine all the way to around 5,800 rpm, then shift.
Here is why. the 83-84 gears are rather wide. In my experence, at around 5,800 rpm, when you shift out of 1st and into 2nd, the engine falls to around 5100 rpm. The horsepower curve is at the same level at 5100, and 5800 rpm.
In the way you feel by the seat of your pance, you are tempted to shift right after peak torque, around 3000 rpm, as thats when it feels like the engine starts peatering out. However, when you do shift, that places the engine so far out of the sweet spot that it feels like a real dog.
What you have to do is hold on to the engine all the way to around 5,800 rpm, then shift.
Here is why. the 83-84 gears are rather wide. In my experence, at around 5,800 rpm, when you shift out of 1st and into 2nd, the engine falls to around 5100 rpm. The horsepower curve is at the same level at 5100, and 5800 rpm.
In the way you feel by the seat of your pance, you are tempted to shift right after peak torque, around 3000 rpm, as thats when it feels like the engine starts peatering out. However, when you do shift, that places the engine so far out of the sweet spot that it feels like a real dog.
03-18-2004, 04:09 PM
#13
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This Thread is a prime example of why "Seat of the Pants" and "Feel" are deseptive measurements. Low-end Torque will make a car "Feel" much faster than it really is.
My 87 S4 5spd felt stonger because it would push you back in your seat faster and harder from 1K to 3K rpms than my 89 GT. However, the GT had higher HP and was actually faster than the S4 when run against the clock.
Dyno and time-to-distance measurements are the only true ways to measure performance.
My 87 S4 5spd felt stonger because it would push you back in your seat faster and harder from 1K to 3K rpms than my 89 GT. However, the GT had higher HP and was actually faster than the S4 when run against the clock.
Dyno and time-to-distance measurements are the only true ways to measure performance.
03-18-2004, 09:04 PM
#14
Drifting
the slush box rocks! i think mine has a different valve body as it holds first untill redline or untill you flick the shifter forward, when started in 2. you can manualy select gears without a clutch and with the huge spread of torque these cars possess, having masses of gears isnt so necessary, not like it might be in a pesky 6 cylinder with three something litres..
03-18-2004, 11:38 PM
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Heinrich, when I finish the t-belt/water pump job on the 83 you may take her for a spin my friend. I think she will pull pretty good now that she has been lightened up a bit.
John
John