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I wonder what effect this bottom end would have on a 16 valve top end? Might need 1989 944 intake valves to breath properly.
That torque sounds wonderful in a daily paired to an auto. It would cruise so nicely.
We've actually built a 5.4 liter version of this engine, for use in a two valve Euro automatic. It's a truely amazing car, with the slightly lighter weight of the early car and the "shorter" gear ratios of the Euro making it "quite responsive".
We do have a 5.8 liter 2 valve version that is in the works.. And yes, larger valves are part of this equation.
Wish everyone could drive / ride along in one of these 5.8 cars. They're so torquey in the midrange, you just put it in third and roll on the throttle, instant response. Not the tire-spinner of the 6.5, but they work in concert with the rest of the stock drivetrain without the hassle of upgraded clutches and worry about breaking stuff. This motor is what the GTS should have had from the get-go.
Folks are asking about the cost. Greg's very wise not to answer this question in less than three pages of text. Any single number devoid of its specific context is probably wrong for your context.
Let's look at the context of "rolling into the bay" a typical 928 and 'refreshing' the engine:
Basic refresh:
- Labor to remove the engine
- Labor to disassemble engine to the short block
- Labor for rework of anything 'messed up' by 'previous technicians'
- Labor to re-assemble the engine
- Labor to install, test, heat cycle engine a few times.
- Head service
You're not going to just reuse the old gaskets, fuel lines, etc. You will replace all the parts that have lifetimes not measured in units of 'decades.'
That's about $5-ish-k in parts right now and doesn't include fluids or replacement fasteners.
You haven't touched the short block. Nothing's been cleaned, re-coated, or re-plated.
The parts number doesn't include any 'upgrades' or margin for parts that shouldn't need to be replaced but were screwed up by 'previous technicians' or the Porsche factory.
Next:
- Labor for while-the-engine-bay-is-empty work (A/C? Clutch Master? etc.)
- Parts for above
Short block:
- Labor for initially disassembling the short block
- Labor for selecting new bearings etc. (several rounds of assembly, measurement, disassembly)
- Labor for final reassembly of the short block
- Parts for the short block (bearings, single use fasteners, etc.)
And, of course, once you've gone this far, you are going to make it pretty:
- Labor for disassembling, organizing, preparing parts for cleaning, re-coating and re-plating
- Labor for organizing, reworking, assembling after re-coating and re-plating
- Labor and/or services for cleaning, blasting, tumble polishing etc.
- More parts
- Service for re-coating (search for threads on intake and cam covers)
- Service for re-plating.
These labor tasks are not trivial in magnitude. I list the service of re-plating for completeness, but labor involved before and after plating the 650+ bits on a 928 engine completely overwhelms the actual cost of the chemical process.
Now...
Add in the parts and labor cost for whatever "upgrades" you want to do.
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
Sounds like the ole 'if you have to ask, you can't afford it' fibberdejibber. How much extra for gold plating on the dipstick shaft?
/sarcasm
Prima facie example of why numbers without context is unwise.
Ok, so, you want a price? $15k - $80k depending upon what you start with and what you want in terms of outcome quality and performance. If you start with a hunk of $h1+ 928, want every single non-experimental performance goody, and want it lickable with no specks of dirt or corrosion, plan on the last number.
As far as gold plating a dipstick is concerned: gold plating isn’t the right choice and the dipstick isn’t suited to re-plating anyway. If it isn’t suitable for use, you buy a new one.
And one thing is true, from the very first 356 model to current, they are not cheap to rebuild, properly.
In reality, compared to 911 engines, 928 engine rebuilds are a bargain.
And compared to building higher output 911 engines, 928 high output engines are "pocket change".
So true. I dipped a few toes in the 996 pool, which is just barely a 911. When engine things go pear-shaped over there, it's amazing how fast costs skyrocket. Like my 928s, I'm almost surely the only guy around that made money on the 996.
My quest for price info on the new 5.8 spec engine was not merely idle curiosity. I have a nicely turned out GT chassis, and trans that could use more engine work than I am willing to mess with again. Maybe I'll finally become a customer.
BTW, there is a black U channel shaped guard that goes across the top of the condensing coil to protect it. I've seen one, years ago.
However, I have to disagree on costs/prices being a matter of individual point of view. In most all things in America, all of us are judged quite rigidly on what comes down to money, and what it will buy. If you meant that my point of view is that of a cheap-*** bastard, who clips the edges of my dimes and quarters before using them, well - that is very true.
So true. I dipped a few toes in the 996 pool, which is just barely a 911. When engine things go pear-shaped over there, it's amazing how fast costs skyrocket. Like my 928s, I'm almost surely the only guy around that made money on the 996.
My quest for price info on the new 5.8 spec engine was not merely idle curiosity. I have a nicely turned out GT chassis, and trans that could use more engine work than I am willing to mess with again. Maybe I'll finally become a customer.
BTW, there is a black U channel shaped guard that goes across the top of the condensing coil to protect it. I've seen one, years ago.
However, I have to disagree on costs/prices being a matter of individual point of view. In most all things in America, all of us are judged quite rigidly on what comes down to money, and what it will buy. If you meant that my point of view is that of a cheap-*** bastard, who clips the edges of my dimes and quarters before using them, well - that is very true.
I don't have a base price for any 928 engine work....what one gets to rebuild varies from engine to engine, in a huge way. Heck, the difference between needing a new water pump, cam gears, and associated parts is almost 3K, these days.
Get a GTS with a split cylinder, worn out bores, "flat" camshafts, acid eaten heads, and junk cam drive pieces can rip up $35K, in a heartbeat.
This complete engine, throwing away almost everything except the block (which we saved by machining the oil pump surface, from the "bead blast" material in the oil scoring that surface) was right at 35K. (Since he needed new pistons and a new crankshaft, anyway, the 5.8 conversion was not a major part of the cost.)
Get a nice GT that hasn't been "ruined" by an idiot and a stock rebuild can be as cheap as 12K. If it needs new pistons, add 4K. If you "add in" the 5.8 conversion for ~10K, you are still well under 30K.
I gave up trying to figure out people and money....not my job. I quote very fair prices for the level of work we do.....regardless of what the balance in someone's checkbook says.
As a very lucky owner of one of Greg's 6.5 strokers, I can't say enough how fantastic the engine is. Smooth, tons of torque and fast. I would love to ride in one of the 5.8 stroker cars to compare. Great work, Greg!
As a very lucky owner of one of Greg's 6.5 strokers, I can't say enough how fantastic the engine is. Smooth, tons of torque and fast. I would love to ride in one of the 5.8 stroker cars to compare. Great work, Greg!
The 6.5 is perfect with the automatic. The automatic transmission just gobbles up the incredible torque and asks for more.
I'm trying to evolve these 5.8 liters for use in the manual cars. I'm thinking that removing some of the torque and moving the power range up higher in the rpm range will be more "drivetrain friendly". This engine is a "baseline" 5.8 version that we had not built. The very first 5.8 went into Jim Corenman's GT.....and it had different cams, headers, etc. More followed, but none with the surrounding parts all stock, like this engine.
This combination turned out really great!
GTS horsepower and torque....except at the rear wheels, not at the flywheel.
However, I have to disagree on costs/prices being a matter of individual point of view. In most all things in America, all of us are judged quite rigidly on what comes down to money, and what it will buy. If you meant that my point of view is that of a cheap-*** bastard, who clips the edges of my dimes and quarters before using them, well - that is very true.
I'm not sure how this became a sociological discussion. The point I was trying to make and on which Greg provided some examples is that there's no single cost figure that gets a 928 from state A to state B. Outside of the detailed context of a specific 928's present condition (state A) and what that 928's owner wants to achieve (state B), any number tossed-out into the air is going to be setting the wrong expectations. Wrong expectations result in either lost clients or unhappy clients.
Furthermore, it's an unhappy fact that "state A" can't be precisely determined until the 928 is in pieces.
I'm trying to evolve these 5.8 liters for use in the manual cars. I'm thinking that removing some of the torque and moving the power range up higher in the rpm range will be more "drivetrain friendly".
Oh yeah, now you are talking!
A free revving 5.8? That would resemble a GT's power curve, only way more fun! Will it be able to spin to seven grand occationally and remain reliable?
I can easily wait a few years for this evolution... Develop away!
05-02-2019, 01:52 PM
