Blown/Damaged Head Gasket?
 

Unfortunately, I think I have a blown head gasket in my 79 K-Jet supercharged car, but was looking for confirmation of my diagnosis before determining how to proceed with the repair.

A few weeks ago, I developed a hole in a coolant line and sprayed all the coolant out of the car. Where I realized it was happening and the temperature gauge got hot with the flashing red warning, I wasn't in a place where I could stop, not near a store to buy coolant, or make a repair, so I drove a few more miles figuring it would be OK and that an influx of fresh air would keep the temperature partially under control.

What contributed to this error in judgement was that prior to that for a couple weeks, my cooling fans weren't kicking on and when the car started to get hot, as long as I was underway on the highway with decent speed, the temperature would drop back down to normal as the air going through the radiator pulled the heat away from the circulating coolant. This is what I thought was taking place on this day and I had just cleared the traffic as the temp started to spike, so thought I was lucky and the temp would be dropping back down any minute, but with the different problem, and coolant having escaped, there was nothing for the air rushing through the radiator to cool and it overheated pretty badly.

By the time I got somewhere I'd be able to get supplies and make the repair (a Wal-Mart), it was looking like this

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ea7c73eece.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...561f4ef82e.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d2a391ba8d.jpg


In the last picture you can see where they clamp had been placed originally, and it was just to the left of that clamp position where the hose had ballooned out enough for the clamp to cut the hose. What you see in the first 2 pictures, is this puncture in the hose directing a high pressure spray of coolant vapor at the radiator and that's why it looks like the radiator is leaking. This event occurred while the supercharger was deinstalled and having some upgrades which is why it's not visible in the photos.

Once things cooled down, there was enough metal pipe inside the black hose, where I could simply move the clamp a little to the right, reclamping the hose upstream of the puncture. I then added about 3.5 gallons of 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and distilled water and was able to drive the rest of the way home without any issues and a completely normal temperature gauge - figured I was lucky and all was good.

I then replaced all the coolant hoses and refilled with a fresh mix of 50/50. Over the next couple days, I kept an eye on the coolant level and it dropped a little bit - figured it was air trapped in the system working it's way out through the expansion tank. I topped it up and then decided to do a pressure test. I pumped the system up to 14 psi

It takes 1 minute for the pressure to drop from 14 psi to 11 psi
another 1 minute to drop from 11 psi to 10 psi
and then 2 minutes to drop from 10 psi to 9psi
and longer than 2 minutes to drop from 9 psi to 8 psi

I don't see any active dripping at any of the hoses.

I also tested the cap separately. It says 7 psi on it and seems to hold exactly 7 psi.

I wasn't 100% in the first test that I was getting a great seal on the coolant reservoir, so I bought a more complete pressure test set and ran the test again when it arrived and the leak down time from 14 psi was significantly slower. I didn't drive the car that day.

The next time I did drive it, it started rougher than usual and as I was backing out of the garage saw some smoke. It cleared up pretty quickly and the car ran fine on that trip. I had just topped up the coolant reservoir before doing the pressure test and noticed some coolant on the ground when I came back out to the car, but it was located right below the overflow hose that's connected to the coolant reservoir - figured I overfilled it and was purging the excess, which I have done a couple times previously. During all this time, the temperature gauge is behaving perfectly, actually better than it has been, but I notice when I park the car that I hear a glugging sound. Happens every 5 to 10 seconds and then the interval gets longer over the course of the next 2 minutes until it stops, but it sounds like it's coming from the fuel tank area and not from the engine.

I do some research on this topic and think maybe it's a heat soak issue vaporizing fuel in the rails, but I don't remember it happening previously, even in the middle of the summer, which seems odd. When the noise is happening, loosening the gas cap does not seem to release any pressure or have a vacuum effect and it doesn't stop the noise from finishing it's cycle.

I think everything may be OK and I'll check into the shut down glugging sound soon, but this morning I started the car and got the same smoke out the back. Today I got out of the car and walked into the smoke cloud and it's definitely coolant and not oil, so I think when I park the car, the glugging sound may be coolant leaking into the head from the pressure built up in the system and that may be what's also causing the glugging sound and maybe maybe that sound is coming from the coolant reservoir and not the gas tank. When I restart the car, that coolant that leaked in burns and makes the white smoke cloud I'm seeing.

When I thought it might be a head gasket, I looked at the dipstick and don't see any foaming like coolant is mixing with the oil, nor do I have any brown oil floating in the coolant reservoir.

Does this sound like a head gasket problem or could it possibly be something else? If it is a head gasket, how big is this project on a 16v motor and can it be done with the motor in the car? Is there a DIY somewhere on a 16v motor so I can see what all needs to be removed?

This is what the motor looks like with the upgraded supercharger reinstalled and I just got it running really well after finding a boost leak, fixing the electric cooling fans issue, rewiring the heat exchanger pump and repairing the washer fluid bottle so there is actually fluid to pump through the heat exchanger - thought I was in good mechanical shape for SITM and the PEC get together, but now think I have another project to do or have done (probably don't have the time or space) prior. Thanks for reading through all this info and providing your opinions.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a32cc66fe1.jpg

I had head gaskets blow on the exhaust valve side in my blower motors in the Pantera. It stopped when we O ringed the heads. I'd do a compression test on each cylinder. They don't always pop where you get water in the oil. I've seen them let go and the exhaust gasses push all the coolant out thru the cooling system. BTW, I got my radiator cap from Roger, and I believe it's a 13 pound cap. Also Greg Brown says the head gaskets on these cars are failing due to age related problems. My 89 is supercharged, and I'll be changing head gaskets as a precaution when I do the top end refresh.

Seems to me that you might have a small head leak coolant into a cylinder(s), hence the white coolant smelling smoke on startup and the slow pressure drain with the tester.

Thanks for the quick responses guys.

1. So if it is a small head leak, how critical is repairing it and how quickly?
2. Will it do damage to the motor if the coolant isn't actually mixing with the oil and the little bit that's burning is just going out the exhaust?
3. If it is leaking, could it fail catastrophically and hydro-lock the engine, like at a gas station, or will it continue to get progressively worse slowly?
4. Could I boroscope through the spark plug holes to determine which cylinder(s) are leaking?
5. Does this usually happen on one bank and is that the only one I'd need to fix or do I need to do both?

First and foremost, it will not fix itself.(Captain Obvious at your service)

Second, all you ask above depends on a lot of different things, among them the severity of the leak.

Third, I would start by pulling the spark plugs one by one to find out what and which you are dealing with. Once you find out exactly what you are dealing with, then make your decisions.

New product idea - self-healing head gaskets :)

Good advice on pulling the plugs and that's what I'll need to do. Might do a compression test at the same time as Polecat suggests.

I would assume if the leak was bad I'd see the coolant smoke all the time, and not just on an initial start after an overnight sit, so I'm guessing it's pretty minor at this stage, but will still need to be fixed.

Pete, if it leaks into a cylinder, and you turn over the engine you could bend a rod. You can't compress a liquid. Do as John suggests, and a bore scope is a good idea too. If you pull one head you might as well do both. I'm not sure if yours is the engine that has head studs as opposed to bolts. You might have to pull the engine, to change out the head gaskets. Good Luck!

Yes, I'd do a compression test as well. Steam-cleaned plugs will tell you which cylinders are affected.

Sounds like a good plan. I just hope you didn't warp your heads.

While starting your car at this point does imply risk of rod damage, the smell of burning coolant is distinct.

You suggested that you can smell coolant in the exhaust cloud. Be sure to perform the start-up (white smoke) test on a low humidity day with the wind coming from behind the car so you isolate the exhaust smoke and do not accidentally smell coolant burning off in your engine compartment. Springtime is a notoriously humid period and it is possible (although unlikely given the overheating event) to confuse the white smoke with normal condensation burn off.

The above suggested visual examinations of the plugs, scope and compression tests should confirm which cylinder/s you are dealing with.

If doing one head, do them both! It is never worth it to skimp on doing a complete job when you are performing all the labor to get in there!

Sorry that this happened, but we are all going to have to do our heads eventually and it seems that doing them sooner rather than later is a reasonable maintenance item at this time in our cars life cycle.

P.S. Love your collection of cars! :bowdown:

I have removed 16v heads in each of my 1985s one with the block in one by pulling the engine. Yes it can be done in the car but really pulling the engine is not difficult...just opens up a bigger rabbit hole....

If you take it out and fully apart you can do "everything" and know where you are.

Pete as others have suggested, I would concur with the pull the plugs.
You could also look into the cylinder and see if it has coolant in it before turning it over,
My Swiss car had this two cylinders had green deposits on the plug tips.

Usually the right cylinder bank is the one most effected by coolant issues since its got a source fore air intrusion via the HCV

Please post a picture of the plugs, that will tell what plug/cylinder is leaking.

Since you didnt provide any background info about your engine , IE it still has the original HGs or not.
If they have never been done then they will need to be. this is a wear item at this point.

The heads can be removed in the car,
this block has studs,
but the 16 valve heads are not as big as the 32 V type.
And the cam towers will have to come off first, a PITA in the car

In reality its much easier to work on this engine out of the car.

If you plan on doing just the heads, leave the engine in - it's A LOT more work pulling and reinstalling the engine.

If the engine requires a going-thru, then pull it, and take your time with it.

I have some other engine leaks (pan gasket, something up higher, etc) so this is probably the straw that's going to require engine removal. I'm making some inquiries to people that could do this work for me and a few other things as I don't have the time or space to tackle this currently and don't want to be without the car for the 6 months it would take me to do it.

Maybe it's time to try and locate a solid Euro motor...

pull the plugs. if coolant is leaking into a cylinder, one plug will be "steam cleaned" and cleaner than the rest.

Jean-Louis is running a Euro in his racecar at 5-lbs of boost with zero problems - 375 rwhp, so that's a good choice for your current setup

That's next on my list and I'll go from there.

Allow engine to cool down.
Remove spark plugs.
If the problem is not obvious by looking at the spark plugs:
Install pressure tester.
Apply pressure to cooling system and allow it to leak down 2-3 times.
Have someone crank the engine over, while you observe the open spark plug holes.


Any sign of "Old Faithful" is bad.



​​​​​

Pete --

If you don't already have one of those little bore-scope cameras with the webserver attached (typically <$30 on Amazon...) here's a great time to add one. Coolant in a cylinder will wash a plug, but that may or may no be obvious depending on how white they are in normal driving. The top of the piston, however, is an easy telltale for lots of combustion issues including detonation and coolant leaking. Both are of serious interest in your supercharged car. Coolant leaking into the cylinder will quickly steam-clean the piston tops to shiny metal, while the "normal" cylinders will have tan to dark grey deposits. Detonation offers a radial bloom from the common point of detonation, sometimes with what look like BB or ball-peen hammer impacts. Among the look with the camera, the plug inspection, a compression test and the coolant system pressure/leakdown test, you'll have enough hints to ID the failure and location.

If you don't have the schedule available for a DIY repair, your best option may be to have the car transported back to Carl for the whole reseal/refresh effort. That virtually eliminates possible issues with having all the supercharger bits go back on correctly. Carl mentioned in the electrical-fire thread that he's headed to Arkansas this spring with the race car and transporter. If he makes a right instead of a left on his way home, he'd wind up in Clemson to pick the car up. According to my from-the-farthest-corner-of-the-lower-48 nav skills anyway.

How new a motor could I run with the rest of my current setup as a plug and play? Would a 4.7 L-Jet work and provide even more power or does it need to be a K-Jet whether US or Euro? Are the electrics the same like wiring harnesses and such?

Seems like if I'm pulling the motor anyway and then the heads and might have to machine the block and refurb the heads that I could do this same work to a different motor with other advantages, if there are some. Maybe upgrade the headers at the same time.

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1 - Not super critical as long as it doesn't get worse.
2 - No. The coolant isn't actually burning, it's just vaporizing to steam and going out the exhaust pipe.
3 - Yes, it could. Maybe. Or maybe not.
4 - Maybe. If you see that the top of one piston (or maybe more than one) is clean, while the rest have the normal carbon, that would be a good indicator. As noted, pulling spark plugs which you'd have to do to do this, would likely tell you the exact same thing.
5 - Maybe one side, maybe both. See below.

You also asked if this can be done with the motor in the car. For a 16v motor, it's rather difficult to get the cam tower off with the motor in. Passenger side worse than driver. General rule for cam tower is that one can be done with motor in, but if you are doing both, it's easier to pull the motor. Not sure if getting the cam tower off gives enough room to get the head out 'easy'.
In this case, I would guess that you've 'failed' a HG. Coolant in the cylinder (coming out the exhaust) is a fairly definitive indicator.
As was noted, I hope you didn't warp your head(s) when you got it hot. Although that generally results in a more catastrophic HG failure.
The big question is whether or not you've damaged both HGs. And if one is still intact, is there damage that hasn't 'let go' yet? Did you weaken it enough that it will fail in the future. It would really, really suck to fix one side and then have the other fail in a few weeks.
Have the HGs been done in the past? Or are they original?

If they are original, I'd suggest biting the bullet, yanking the motor & replacing both HGs.
If they've been done fairly recently, that will be a tougher decision.

Standard disclaimer: My $0.02, worth what you paid for it, not a professional mechanic, didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, use at own risk, close cover before striking, contains flammable gas under pressure. :)

Edit to add:

Nope. There's probably 600 miles or so of Tennessee & North Carolina in the way.

Yes. Any engine that got as hot as you described is probably going to need more than just head gaskets:
The decision to drive it a "few more miles" was the exactly the same decision as pulling it out and attempting to rebuild it....even if you didn't recognize it, as such, right at that moment.

The "Fat Lady" has sang, left the building, gone home, and is already sleeping.

Any of the '78/'79 US engines are "plug and play", obviously. Any '78-'83 Euro engine is also "plug and play". (Although the odds of finding any '78-'83 engine that is good enough to just drop in and supercharge are very, very low.)
Every other engine will require modifications to the electrical and fuel system.

So Greg, how's your schedule?

As always, very busy.

When trying to do things as perfect as possible....one "little snag" can set us back weeks.

Seems like everything we have seen for the last six months has multiple "little snags".

The reality of working on older cars is that we don't see many cars for routine service things....almost everything we do is something that no one else can figure out how to fix or some sort of major trauma.

So --- We skip the diagnostic steps entirely and simply jump to a GB rebuild?

Or --- new GB motor?

If you do not want to start it again, at least pull the plugs and report the findings. Photos would help create a reference.

Some of us want a confirmed diagnosis before ripping our motors out or apart... Geeezzzzzz


.

An LS engine would go perfect with your drivetrain!

Nah, we'll be doing all of that, hopefully this week - at least the pulling the plugs portion and boroscoping into the cylinders (I have a mobile phone boroscope, which probably isn't great, but should do).

Just trying to understand options providing the problem is what everyone including me thinks it probably is. Doesn't seem like there are too many ways to make a coolant cloud on start-up which never once happened prior to the overheating event, and has now happened twice in the same week. Same situation for that glug glug sound I hear on shutdown now, which I thought might be air trapped in the cooling system since I had refilled it, but now think it's coolant running into the head and the air it's displacing rising in the system.

There are a few things all pointing in the same direction, but will pull plugs to confirm and post what they look like.

In the event it is the head gaskets, if I found an M28/10 K-Jet motor (Euro), how.much of what I already have on my engine that is new and known good could move over to it, specifically the CIS fuel distributor, air sensor, WUR, crank pulley for the SC, 200 amp alternator, a/c, etc. I know the spider manifold and legs are different and larger on the Euro.

If I end up sourcing a new motor, does it matter if it was the version for a 5-speed manual or for an automatic (M28/10 vs M28/09 or M28/11 or M28/12)?

Hi Pete. Sorry about your problem. There is a kit that tests for combustion gases in the coolant system. I forget exactly how it works, but not too expensive and supposedly very sensitive.
Maybe this is the one I got.
Good luck,
Dave

Thanks Dave. Adding that to the test arsenal to help confirm the diagnosis. I'll try to pull plugs tonight and do the coolant test Thursday or Friday when I'm back home again.

I just posted this in the other Head Gasket thread. At the beginning of my thread below, I describe the symptoms I encountered, which sound similar to yours. Further into the thread you can see the forensics of the gasket. I got lucky and didn't have any corrosion issues to deal with. It has been 7 years and 16k miles since, with no issues.

EDIT - my car never overheated, so the fact that yours did may present issues other than the gasket, as you know.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...s-back-on.html

Yep, your symptoms actually sound identical to my current situation. Honestly, if it weren't for the cloud on startup after the coolant system pressure test, that also was a slower and rougher start, and then the 2nd cloud a few days later, the car has run fine and I wouldn't even know I had a problem.

Rather than a full motor replacement, how about a just a set of Euro S heads? That would give you bigger valves, but allow you to use most of your setup as is.

Having done it both ways, I really recommend pulling the motor, even to replace a head or a cam carrier gasket. It is just not that hard of a pull, the overall work is less, and the quality of the end job is better.

karl,

That's a great idea and I came to a similar conclusion earlier today. I have a pair of Euro heads from an M28/11 motor on hold that I will purchase if I have to remove mine to replace the head gaskets. I'll have them gone through and refurbished if they're pitted, then have a 3-angle valve-job and head restoration performed, then reinstall those on my motor. As you say, that will improve the breathing, and probably even more so with the supercharger. I'm probably going to add the rest of the Euro intake pieces as well - intake distributor (already have the legs), Flap Nozzle / throttle body to realize the full benefit and may renew the injectors while I'm doing all of that. This should be much easier than the motor swap, considering how packed the front of my engine bay is with the custom intake, radiator, and supercharger setup, and I don't have a lot of other while you're in there stuff to do since motor mounts are pretty new.

We'll see what tonight's spark plug pulls reveal. Ideally, there's not much coolant sitting in the cylinders as I'd like to be able to start the car one more time to put it on the lift and swap it with the 914 while I wait on parts, if that's the direction I go.

Advice I'm getting on whether to pull the motor for this job or to do it with the engine in the car, since it's a 16v seems fairly evenly split, so I've added a poll to the thread so I can see how wide the overall distribution is. At this point I'm leaning toward doing it with the motor in the car, but the poll may sway my decision, and if I'm pulling the motor, that may change what I decide to do about repair or replace.

If the Euro heads you have lined up don't work out I have a spare set somewhere in LA. Bought them many years ago just because and have never even unpacked them.

Pete--

I voted to pull the motor for the headgaskets. Even though you added the unrealistic qualifier that this is the only thing you will do. There's No Such Thing as "just replacing the headgaskets" on a 16V motor. For all the things including the heads and such, engine in the stand is just so much easier than engine in the car. There have been more than a few "engine pull parties" that let the starving masses help out; supply pizza and suds after it's out, and two problems are easily solved at once.

--

Having larger Euro valves or intake runners is almost inconsequential with the supercharger. The limitations on the SC car are related to cylinder pressures & temperatures, and subsequent detonation. If the runners or valves are a little smaller, the boost pressure is raised with a pulley change to make up for it.

+1. Visual in the cylinder is best if the plugs are not already wet.

I voted the way we would do the job, in my shop, if I thought the engine was fine and I just had to remove the heads. (Like the survey said.) No question, leave the engine in the car, in that situation.

This engine, which got really damn hot, would come out of the car.....again, no question.
If the pistons and bores are not scuffed, it's because they are completely worn out.

Very true.

After plug removal, the news looks to be as expected. #6 has coolant in the cylinder, probably #7 too and #2 and #3 are questionable too. Here are the photos so you can see for yourself and advise. Captions are below each photo


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ec490ccc7d.jpg
All Plugs



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e3e93b27e0.jpg
1-4



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b1d38cc2dc.jpg
5-8



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c9339afbc7.jpg
1-2



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...626b483b2f.jpg
3-4



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b2b167ab59.jpg
5-6



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71d1712f95.jpg
7-8




And here are the boroscope results. Plugs did not actually seem especially tight which is probably why even outside the motor and on the base of some of the plugs, you can see the burned coolant remnants. Photos are captions with the cylinder # and then a letter for each photo in that cylinder

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c74d66a546.jpg
1A



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7128dd64f8.jpg
1B



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...52d230ae64.jpg
2A



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8b41bfe545.jpg
2B



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e18a71db48.jpg
2C



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a2aca0b927.jpg
3 - this one was do close to top of the stroke this was the only shot I could get



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68a95da2a7.jpg
4A



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8c8feab2db.jpg
4B



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4403cb40f5.jpg
5A



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ba0c1dd50a.jpg
5B



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b79610c61e.jpg
5C



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5cd2a32ffc.jpg
6A



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...64e962a5cb.jpg
6B



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c872d98f2b.jpg
6C



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6cfb21559d.jpg
7A



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...326b2ef651.jpg
7B



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9585567c77.jpg
7C



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a3cdc6bc1e.jpg
8A



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2fa35e8e79.jpg
8B


Based on these findings are we concerned about the rest of the health of the motor where the safer bet is to replace what was a solid motor that ran well with a rock-steady idle with a complete different engine? I don't want to go to the trouble of doing the heads only to fire it back up and find out the bearings, crank or something else are actually bad. I have driven it twice since the first coolant cloud and it seemed to run fine.

Next question - it's on the floor under my lift with the 914 above it. Looks like it's not going anywhere for a while. If I leave all the plugs out and loosen the coolant reservoir cap so it can't build pressure, can I turn it over to push any coolant out the plug holes, reinstall the plugs and then run it for 5 minutes in order to be able to swap these 2 cars around or am I going to have to do that by pushing it?

All advice welcome and appreciated. Thanks.

Awesome thread and documentation! Sorry I could not participate today (Mom suddenly in hospital).

Again much appreciation to everyone for sharing their thoughts and insight. It will be fun to see what Pete does with this engine given it resides in such a unique and special car. :cheers:

Enjoy!

Sure, why not, it's not like the cylinders are full of water. You're head gaskets are leaking, they haven't failed completely. That's just my opinion, it's a gamble but at this point it's reasonable.

So, the outside of the spark plugs had water/coolant sitting around them....that's the corrosion on the metal. Note that this stain on the spark plugs is not coolant from the inside of the engine!

Is the coolant sitting on the top of the pistons from the inside of the engine, or did that run down the spark plug hole when you took the spark plugs out?

Crank the engine over, with the spark plugs out....several revolutions to "clear" out all the coolant that is currently in the engine.

With your bore scope, confirm all the coolant is gone.

Install the pressure tester and pump it up and let it leak down a few times. Recheck with the bore scope. If the coolant comes back, it's from the inside, not from the outside of the spark plugs.

BTW....those bores look pretty good, from what I can tell from your pictures.

I'm thinking remove the heads, from what I see in those pictures.


And yes, if you crank the engine over with the spark plugs out (blowing out the coolant from inside the cylinders), you can then install the spark plugs and start the engine to move things around. (No pressure on the cooling system, from your tester, but you can leave the tester on the tank.) Just don't shut it off, if it builds pressure in the cooling system....that will push coolant back into the cylinders.

Greg, thanks for your continued input. Yes, I've never personally changed the plugs in this motor - was actually going to do that as part of the prep work for the upcoming 928 events (Mitty, SITM, PEC), but they were all pretty loose, like tensioned, but maybe 5-7 ft. lbs by feel so some of that coolant had made it's way out of the spark plug holes and corroded the metal on the outside of the plug itself. I put towels over both sides of the plug holes and cranked the motor over a few times - nothing came shooting out into the towels and it spun over just fine (sounds funny though with no compression - don't think I've ever done that in any motor before, almost like it's not even spinning).

I'm glad to hear your input on the condition of the bores. This motor seemed very good other than a few oil leaks - nice steady idle, smooth, etc and this project will be much more affordable if I only work it from the head perspective and not the complete motor replacement one if you think my odds are good to salvage what I have without tearing it apart. For a motor oil I run Driven DT50 synthetic which according to Lake Speed at Driven will support temperatures of up to 350 degrees for short periods, so maybe that was a contributor to not having more damage and the car seeming to run fine both during the event and now afterwards.

Sounds like you think I can start it and move it onto the lift once the cylinders are free of coolant while I figure out the best way to go.

Right now, I have a few options:

1. a fully rebuilt M28/10 motor that would be bolt in ready, but is really way beyond my budget (thousands) so not really an option
2. A pair of Euro heads from an M28/11 I could get for reasonable money, hen have renovated and a valve job done to them, install with new gaskets. I keep all my existing intake parts
3. A different pair of Euro heads (don't know specific year yet) I could get for reasonable money, then have renovated and a valve job done to them, install with new gaskets.
4. an 4.7 M28/19 complete built engine. One head mounting hole has been welded at a bolt hole, but tested. I either keep all my existing intake parts or also buy the L-Jet parts that were part of this same motor, but my K-Jet setup seems to be working so well, I'm afraid to go the electronic injection route.
5. an 85/86 M28/43 5.0L block with M28/15 16v heads - a hybrid engine build. Pistons had the extra notching done to work with the 16v head

Which of these options seem good and which are not as good?

Sad news, Pete. I hope you can get it fixed soon.
Good luck,
Dave

If you score Euro heads, then also find some Euro cams too.
​​​​​​
They are more supercharger-friendly in that they'll lower the dynamic compression ratio of the engine, thus, help minimize detonation.

Classic failure mode of a supercharged engine is a blown head gasket, and usually caused by detonation.

Actually, it looks like my current compression ratio of my '79 US car is 8.5:1 and the lowest of all 928 motors, so should be as supercharger friendly as they come. In '80, the US cars moved compression to 9.0:1,and for the Euros to 10.0:1.

83/84 US cars were 9.3:1
84-86 Euros were the highest at 10.4:1
85-86 US cars were at 10.1:1
then everything after that, except the GTS was 10.0:1 with the GTS being slightly higher at 10.4:1

If I end up putting heads onto my block, I'm going to install them with upgraded gaskets from 928MS. If I end up installing the 4.7 rebuilt motor, I'm going to leave things assembled as they are and drop it in. That motor would have a compression ration of 9.3:1 which should be OK. Probably going to install new fuel injectors just to be save if I go that route, unless I also change over to the L-Jet fueling system that's available with that motor.

Any opinion on K-Jet vs L-Jet for supercharged setups - avoiding a computer and tuning manually with mixture seems easier.

I would talk to Carl about L-jet vs K-jet. He has experience with both .
good luck
Dave

Joe
Call me when you do that. I'd be happy to come out and help you pull the motor and do the heads. It's easier with extra sets of hands.

Just did.

He says the K-Jet is a better fueling platform for supercharging providing it's in good shape (which mine is), so I'll be staying with what I have on that, but probably installing with new injectors and seals just to be safe, and some braided stainless fuel lines I've found.

I bought the recently rebuilt 4.7L M28/19 motor today from user BC for very reasonable money - thanks BC! It was previously in ladybug's car.

So that's the plan...pull the motor and replace it with this 4.7 and then reinstall my K-Jet setup and supercharger onto it. Also going to install new injectors and Greg Brown fuel lines.

The motor will be starting the trip my way from San Diego sometime next week and I'll start doing prep work on my car in the meantime as I've now made a decent list of stuff I am going to do.

Hoping I can get it all put together in time for SITM.

If there's a good 16v Engine Pulling for Dummies (Rookies) writeup with step by step instructions someone could point me to, that would be awesome.

I'll pull the heads from my current motor after I get everything else done and decide what to do with it.

Thanks Jeff!!!!! I'll wait till you're snow bound and want to hit Vale on the way out. I wanna do the engine after we run down to 3rd coast, this year. Yank the motor, and get it back in before I have Tommy, paint the car. I'll have everything ready to do a quick swap. I have spares for almost everything. Plus all the new parts will be here too.

We'll tool around in the Pantera this time too. Gotta start driving it.

The motor removal is the hard part. Putting it back in is super fun. I stole the pallet from Costco today so ON SCHEDULE!

Thanks BC !

All easy stuff, especially on a CIS car.
Remove hood
Unhook exhaust
Pull fan and radiator
Unhook 14 pin electrical connector
Disconnect 2x fuel lines and throttle cable.
Disconnect driveline at clutch
Drop the clutch? (don't totally remember if I pull the clutch down or not. Probably makes the pull easier if you do as otherwise it has to come pretty far forward)
Bell housing bolts and motor mounts.
Pull baby pull.

WSM has a good write up, I think.

Thanks for the outline. I have the WSM and will look that up.

Does the hood really need to come off, or can you just disconnect the struts and make it more vertical or pad it lay it back toward the windshield.

I'm planning to put it on the lift so I can access things from above and below as need be, then roll it off the lift so I can get a cherry picker with leveler under it to lift the motor out.

Hi Pete,
The hood comes off easily and one person can do it. I popped the struts, then laid blankets across the engine and fenders. Then I lowered the hood until almost closed, but I could still access the hinge bolts. Pull the bolts and walk around to the front of the car and lift the aluminum hood. Very easy, and the access is vast.
Good luck,
Dave

Mark the position of the hood hinges with a sharpee. If you have fender service guards this would be a good time to use them as it is easy to bump the hood against a fender as you are lifting it, if you are doing it by your self.

Disconnect the engine at the torque-tube and bellhousing. Pull the engine with bellhousing attached.

Less is more at this stage.

I unbolt hood hinges and all.

Thanks guys. Keep the tips coming.

My car has the Z06 6-speed if that effects any of this, like the bell housing suggestion.

What spec (size, length, thread pitch, and grade) mounting bolts will I need to put the engine on a Sunex 8300 engine stand once I've pulled it?

Umm disconnect the bell housing from the engine, remove the rear trans mounts to cross member
and slide it back an inch or so,
Put a small block of wood under the TT at the small chassis cross memeber the TT will rest on it.
Then pull the engine up about 4 inches then slide it forward while lifting.
The bell housing will hit the chassis if its not removed from the engine .
NOTE if you have a clutch then also remove the clutch

Sure, you can do it this way.

But we've removed/installed many engines bellhousing on, and it's far easier working on and setting up the clutch, and unistalling/installing the clutch-fork with the engine out.

The tricky part is removing/installing the torque tube bolts, but even that is easy enough, just need to be patient.

Are there threads you can refer me to here with pictures? Just curious.

I don't know if there are any threads on it.

And along those lines, there is no need to drop the exhaust system. Simply zip-tie it in-place, and only remove the 'collector' bolts.

Engine will come right out with exhaust in place, and one less thing to hook-up afterwards.

I've always found it easier to do it like Stan does. Unbolt the housing from the engine and leave it connected to the torque tube.

That is only way I've done.

OK, I'll do it that way and leave the bell-housing on the torque tube.

I'll be pulling the clutch pack anyway as I'm going to replace my spec friction discs with OEM ones to finally eliminate the grabbiness of the engagement that has bothered me since the beginning. My car does have the upgraded 80-83 dual disc clutch with intermediate plate and all that was new during the build, so just doing the friction discs which I already have on-hand.

Thanks.

By all means do what you think is best.

My comments are for 5-speeds only. I got sick and tired with wrestling with the clutch-fork and ball-cup bushing after dropping the engine back in. I had to use a crow-bar and large screwdriver to get the fork over the bushing.

Perhaps autos are easier.

Mine's not an auto or a 5-speed (6-speed) so guess I'll pull the clutch pack and then see what looks easier. My plan is to get a Cherry picker with a balancer assembly so I can angle the motor as needed coming out, then level it off. I still need to search for the engine hoist attachment points to see how all of that is done once I get everything off and disconnected.

I sure am going to learn a lot about my 928 if nothing else - maybe even enough to get my son one when he's old enough, because after this whole process, I might have a spare motor if my current one is OK.

Hi Pete,
There are a couple of things to do while the engine is out, that are difficult otherwise. One is the A/C line along the right fender. I'm sure there are others, and you should look around for them to save yourself grief.
Good luck,
Dave

the infamous blue hose from the brake booster.

Anyone have an old scrap square tooth timing belt they want to send me for the cost of postage. I want to cut it up. Looking to paint the non-running surfaces of my steel timing pulleys (cam, oil pump, crank, etc) and want to mask off the toothed portion with sections of an old belt during the process.

Also, anyone have scrap 3 bolt header flanges? I'm looking for 2 of them to make an adapter to go between the 85/86 round tube SS headers and my current stainless Y-Pipe and would prefer to not cut and weld either of those, unless someone actually has one of those adapter pieces around.

Thanks.

Here we go.

Battery disconnected, hinge positions marked, and hood off. I'll work on disassembly and removal while the 4.7L is en route.

Sunex 8300 GB Engine stand is assembled (thanks for the recommendation in another thread Greg Brown), Harbor Freight Shop Hoist with pneumatic ram upgrade and balancer assembly is on hand to be put together. Waiting on some parts too.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...81a1f23bba.jpg

Pretty productive first few hours

• Crossbrace off
• Fuel lines disconnected at the intake legs and intske removed
• supercharger intertcooler deinstalled
• Radiator and most of the coolant drained

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...78c88893d8.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...83b1bd8207.jpg

Good progress Pete. Wish I could come help, but I'm swamped. I hope it goes fairly smooth.

Nice job so far.

Friendly tip - whenever you start to feel impatient while working on the car, put down the wrench and take a break.

Never more truer words have been spoken...

Absolutely! Avoid the "last run" syndrome like the plague.

Let us know what you think about that 8300GB stand. Been looking at one and after yesterday messing with this latest rebuilt engine I want one with a crank.

I love mine! Mine came from Jegs. Made in China - everything is nowadays.

I'm impressed with it. Amazon had the best price with free shipping so that's where mine came from. I'm going to get a drip pan (but not the Sunex one that melts from exposure to fluids) for it and cut a hole at the right position for the center brace to come through. I also replaced 3 of the bolts with clevis pins and tension pins with the safety ring so I can fold it down without requiring any tools. Having not mounted a motor on it yet, it looks very well made, the crank turns nice an free. After doing some research, I went with this one because of the longer standoff lengths. Most of the other ones I found that I liked (the yellow Jegs one) had short standoffs and that was one of the complaints from the people who bought those.

You can actually see it folded down under the boat trailer in the coolant draining photo.

I'll let you know how it works with the motor mounted as I'm going to remove and reseal the oil pan and install a stud kit, so I'll be cranking it upside down once on the stand.

What's the consensus on whether I should upgrade to the Porken tensioner while I'm doing all of this on a 16v motor if I have a functioning regular tensioner?

How difficult will it be to access your tensioner to retension after 1500 miles? How difficult is it to access your tensioner for anything with the extra apparatus you have installed at the front of your engine?

Quite difficult.

Pulling the airbox is easy, but the supercharger, not so much.

With the Porken Tensioner, is it self-adjusting like a normal serpentine belt tensioner, so no break in or periodic adjustments, whereas the OEM one requires manual adjustment?

If so, there's my answer. Thanks and let me know.

Self adjusts like a normal serpentine belt tensioner.
Somehow I thought you might lean that way if you needed to remove the supercharger to access the tensioner. :)

I am sending tensioners Pete, but I was going to say I would strongly recommend the Ken's tensioner in this case.

Yep, I think that makes sense. Sent Roger a note last night.

Hi Pete,
I have the Porkensioner also. It works just fine, and it's also possible to remove or release tension on it from below, with the supercharger in place. I needed to do that when I corrected a one-tooth error on my timing belt install.
Good luck,
Dave

I prefer this one, much more sturdy with the two load-bearing legs:

Harbor Freight Engine Stand...

Got one of those, actually two and while they have worked for me in the past, I'm not a fan. The one I'm working on right now Cheap-o-that works at the house came with the engine I just completed and it's much, much sturdier than the one you posted and I've been using. Hated how my old ones wiggled around on the set pins. Guess I"m getting old, I want sturdy one with a crank so I don't have to muscle it around.

LOL, I've got the one you posted, and do not like it at all. Different strokes I guess, glad there's plenty of options.

Just out of curiosity, how can yours rated at 1,000 lbs be sturdier than mine rated at 2,000 lbs?

Pete You can get that adapter for the X pipe from Motorsport in Utah

Thanks Stan. Mark Anderson pointed me in that direction last week and Dave is making me one. Should ship early next week.

The headers arrived yesterday too (thanks Jim).

Motor and related parts have been shipped too. I need to order some things from Mark and Roger, but in about a week, I'll be the hold-up and should have 90% of what I need on hand.

Read my post a little closer and you will have a better chance at understanding what I said.

I did, apparently yours is old and worn out, whereas my pins are still tight after years of use.

Again, I have both, and their listed specs accurately reflect my experience with them. I had to put a jack under the engine's nose to help support the then-brand-new 1,000 lb capacity stand. For the 2,000 lb capacity stand, no additional support has ever been necessary. Because of this, I've never used the 1,000 lb stand again.

So, basing/making a recommendation using a worn-out piece of equipment as an example, is not exactly good advice.

The numbers do not lie for in-spec, brand-new engine stands - 2,000 lb capacity versus 1,000 capacity, and their numbers accurately reflect my experience with both of them.

Hey Pete - make sure you have the Harbor Freight engine hoist rated at 2 ton. The 1 ton doesn't really extend far enough. Good Luck!

Thanks a lot for the tip. Luckily I bought the right one, as I assembled it last night. Also upgraded the ram to the dual hydraulic / pneumatic one like I did on my 20 Ton shop press. Bought the 2 Ton load leveler too so I can adjust the angle on the way out and back in.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a44d1cd712.jpg


Probably elementary questions, but how and where do I connect the lift chains to the motor once I'm ready to pull it and also how and with what bolts and where should it be attached to the standoffs on the engine stand.

Also, is there a good link to a complete write-up on waterpump replacement and cam timing setup? Though I'm not changing the waterpump, I'll need to do the rest of it for reassembly.on the 4.7L motor.

With JP's soccer games both days, I didn't get much done over the weekend, but hoping to make some progress during a couple evenings this week.

Thanks.

There should be lifting eyelets near cylinders 1 and 8 but being at opposing corners it is awkward even with a load leveler. I will try this method next time: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ft-points.html

I used this excellent water pump/timing belt guide: http://static.ibsrv.net/autocomm/Con...ber%202011.pdf

Use this one and you will have no issues.

Thanks a lot. Just printed out my 200 page step by step manual. Will put it in a binder and set it on the workbench next to the car :)

Interesting idea from Kevin on the lifting points too - might need to get some steel angle iron and a couple large eye bolts at Lowe's today.

Thanks for the props. :-)

they worked great with the load leveler.

Pete, you want to borrow them?

Sure if you can spare them for a while - if not, I'll just make a set since I'll need them twice (removal & reinstallation) and am probably going to be dressing up the 4.7 a bit once it arrives before installation (cam towers, pulleys, etc). I don't want to mess up anything you have going from a timing perspective as it seems like you're pulling or reinstalling a motor every couple weeks LOL

Let me know and I'll shoot you some $ for postage - don't think I'm headed towards Atlanta in the next couple weeks.

Boxed and ready to go. PM your address. They go out today.

Awesome. Thanks so much. Address coming your way.

Excellent choice on both the hoist and leveler - lots of lifting-hp and stability, with plenty to spare.

Progress continues

Supercharger removed, Power steering fluid drained, Radiator drained & removed

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ee114b3072.jpg

That's the way. Just keep chipping away. Blower pulley will have to come off, of course. Motor has to come pretty far forward.

Yep, waiting on a flywheel lock with my other parts from Roger so the motor doesn't turn backwards.

Plenty to do between now and then though - clutch pack, power steering lines, header to Y-Pipe bolts, etc etc etc

Tracked the motor shipment from BC today - already in GA so won't be long before I can start working on that.

Did you get the separate box Pete? Hopefully the engine gets there in one piece. I was thinking about the starter bracket. If you are doing a lower clutch cover starter mount for an early car you will remove the flywheel and remove that starter bracket. I also included exhaust gaskets, timing back cover o-rings, and the belt we talked about in the box. It will be some work but you can do this.

The Cams you have available to you may be better than the 4.7L USA cams on the motor I sent.

Thanks BC. No, no box yet, but I'm sure it will show up sometime this week.

I've got an combo setup so won't know what works for the flywheel and starter stuff until I get into it.

Z06 trans, 83 dual plate clutch, high-torque starter, etc.

Thanks for l the extra parts too. You all have been extremely helpful.

I decided not to do any of the Euro stuff in the interest of time and cost - maybe the next time :)

Phase 2 tonight

Coolant drained from both sides of engine block - that was fun.

Starter and alternator removed (supercharger earlier today)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a3ac0bc612.jpg


Oil drained

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...dcc9ad6fa9.jpg


More wiring disconnected

Headers unbolted from Y-Pipe

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...802620dbf3.jpg


Everything is so nasty under here with oil and crud, this may have been a blessing in disguise to finally get the engine (or an engine) sealed up properly and toss the drip tray. Probably the oil pump, cam covers, oil pan, and who knows what else.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0b0cdb235e.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8091cef320.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bef2ff6573.jpg

I like the turnbuckle on your AC compressor. Excellent simple strong adjustment.

Quick update - engine delivery delayed until next week, which is fine. The transport company didn't have a lift-gate truck available today, and it's pouring, so trying to transfer it from a tractor trailer into the back of a pick-up, then use a shop hoist to get it into the garage would have been fun.

Still waiting on some hardware from Fastenal to be able to put the new motor on the Engine stand, and not having to work around it while I continue to work on getting the current motor out will be better.

Also, my box from Roger is shipping today so delivery Thursday of next week when I'm back from a trip should work out perfectly.

Wow, that sucks. It says "Lift gate service" at delivery. These things are random sometimes. At least its close. Did you get the box though?

It's OK, really. Less stuff in my way for this weekend's removal work and gives me a little more time to get the garage setup to have places for 2 engines out of the car and on the floor. Your 4.7 will go on the Sunex stand and I'll set the 4.5 on the skid once I get the 4.7 off.

Also gives me a chance to have the engine to stand mounting hardware on-hand that arrives at Fastenal on Monday.

No box yet - tracking shows it in Greensboro, NC with an exception for a train derailment that is delaying delivery - you can't make this stuff up :)

As long as it shows up by Wednesday of next week, should be totally fine.

Jeebuz.

Made some more progress today, but not as much as I would have liked, because I started cleaning things up a little as I was removing them - wiping down wiring of oil and grease, etc.

Removed A/C Compressor and tied it off to the side.

Removed Y-Pipe and Exhaust Heat Shield

Removed Clutch bottom housing cover and noticed that the clutch assembly (looks like maybe the flywheel teeth from the 1st picture below) had been coming in contact with it to some degree - this may have happened a while ago when the first intermediate plate cracked, but the grooves in the cover aren't covered with the same black friction disc dust, so seems more recent, but I would guess that would make a god-awful noise that I don't recall hearing.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6858df158d.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e5d1265985.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4af8a8bcdd.jpg


so I machined it down below the level of the grooves that existed so it won't contact there in the future. I couldn't figure out how it could be adjusted since the throwout bearing plate is held in a specific position by the two small bolts.


Also, should this T fastener be in the groove that it looks like it should be in?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b65456bd56.jpg


I loosened both pinch bolts from the torque tube coupler, slid it back, and removed the 2 small fasteners from the throwout bearing plate.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...dfff8494b5.jpg


I looked in the WSM and did an online search, but can't find definitive instructions on how the clutch pack is now removed at this point. I've read something about shims that need to be installed before taking the circumferential bolts loose

Also, do I need to not go any further with this part until I can put the flywheel lock on in order to break the crankshaft nut loose? I also have a hardware kit from Carl that has 3 U-shaped clips, 3 red head painted bolts, and 6 hardened bolts that is supposed to come in handy for this job as I'm changing my friction discs from the current SPEC ones back to OEM versions in order to smooth out the clutch engagement and make the car much more drivable in traffic and on hill starts. Currently the clutch is very grabby and you can't spin it against the flywheel at all without it creating driveline shudder - you either have to let it out very slowly with no throttle until it just starts to engage and then let it the rest of the way out very quickly, or you have to rev it up and dump it, but there's no middle ground, which I don't like, so fixing that as part of this project.

Other progress pics from today...


A/C Compressor removed and tied-off
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...49b49f7790.jpg



Starter Wires Cleaned up
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c39c192587.jpg



Y-Pipe and Heat Shield Removed
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...50e8ad2ef7.jpg



Also, my adapter flange from Dave Lomas at Motorsports SLC arrived today and the holes between the two flanges are clocked by about 1/3 hole. Is this what's needed for everything to properly line-up on the passenger side when installing the '85/'86 round tube SS headers onto a 16v engine or should the bolt holes be aligned? I'm going to clean-up the welds a little bit too before installing.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fd702164a8.jpg


Planning to tackle the mess that is the power steering pump tomorrow. I have a spare that came with the car I'll be installing when it goes back together. Going to fire up the ultrasonic parts washer tomorrow if I have time to start degreasing some of these nasty brackets (power steering pump bracket, clutch housing cover, A/C bracket, exhaust heat shield. etc.)

Clutch removal is simple. The shims are the "U shaped clips". They go under the rivets to hold them out a bit when you unbolt the pressure plate pack (PP Pack). The 'T shaped fastener' is supposed to be a round head rivet. And yes, it's supposed to be up a bit.

6 bolts hold the PP pack to the fly wheel. You have to rotate the motor to get to them, so don't lock it into place just yet.. Carl may have sent you new bolts, some folks don't like to reuse them. Not sure.

Once the bolts are out, just pull the short shaft back, out of the pilot bearing in the back of the crank. The PP pack will fall freely down. Don't drop it on your head.

The short shaft should pull out easily. If not, there's a problem. I had to deal with it and can walk you through it.

that is a funny looking adapter,
the holes look like they wont line up but,
they make these flanges on a special jig so they do line up perfectly,
weld cleanup is another story

Thanks Stan and Joe.

Next question. How the heck do you get the pulley off the power steering pump once the lock nut is removed. Are the threads backwards or should counter clockwise rotation remove it.

I have a spare PS pump I'm going to install but it has a bent pulley so I need to swap the pulley from my messy one over to it.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...51c3ff0063.jpg

Hi Pete,
From your picture, there is a keyway on the pulley. I bet that using a puller will extract the pulley. BTW it looks like right-hand threads on the end of the shaft. I wish you the best of luck with your project.
Dave

Yep, used a puller on it and after some coaxing, it released with a pop - was really on there. Did the other one too so should be able to put together one good power steering pump and one good pulley, although my spare PS pump was also pretty dirty. I'm wondering if there's a washers and seals kit to rebuild these so I'm sure they don't leak once I install one of them. If so, what is in that kit. Looks like they tend to leak from the large banjo fitting that has crush washers on both sides. Anywhere else?

Power steering pump is off and I cleaned up a lot of the parts I removed - heat shields, brackets, etc and the spare set of timing pulleys I have.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...03db990808.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1131f0191c.jpg

Was able to get more accomplished last night.

Pretty much finished removal of anything connected to the motor that needs to come off working from above the engine.

Power Stteering reservoir is out.
Coil is out
K-Jet system is removed

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...be05933500.jpg
Engine without K-Jet setup, PS Reservoir, & Coil



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7df00b726f.jpg
K-Jet Fueling Removed



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...35ece5e362.jpg
Nasty valley between the banks



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4c0ea9d936.jpg
color coded these plugs with wire ties and took a photo so I'd be able to put them back correctly since the plugs and the wiring all look the same

Today, the new motor arrived and looks to be in good shape, though I haven't spun it upside down yet. BC did a very nice sealing and packaging job to keep the open ports sealed off.



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f5da4f6a20.jpg
I was able to lift the engine on the skid out of the bed of the pickup with the HF 2-Ton Hoist and pneumatic ram quite easily



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c65780273b.jpg
Used Kevin's mounting bracket setup for the water-pump - worked great. (THANKS Kevin !)



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...78dd528372.jpg
On the backside, I do not have the large studs or bolt holes for his other bracket, just some M6 ones that hold the K-Jet setup in place, and didn't think they would be strong enough, so just used his eye-bolt through this hole instead (OK to do it this way, or not for the next lift?)



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ae690994f3.jpg
Then used the leveler to get the engine horizontal to connect it up to the Sunex Engine Stand - worked like a charm. I had to pick it up with with very uneven chain lengths the way it was sitting on the pallet and why I had to run the leveler all the way over to the side to level it out, but it all worked. I'll pick it up from the stand evenly and use the leveler to angle it for installation into the car for the next part.


I followed some advice I found on here about mounting it on the stand lower than aligning the crank with the rotational access of the stand, which should keep the center of gravity lower when it rolls over the top.

Going to try and finish the work under the car with the old motor tonight, then leave it there until this one is ready to go in so I don't lose more garage space. I plan to do some work on this new motor before installation, like installing a new oil pan gasket and stud kit, powdercoating the cam tower covers and some other parts, etc.

OK, I am super glad it is there in one piece. I had some dreams about the straps coming off....

I would strongly recommend redoing the pan gasket, as they always need to be redone. With the sitting, I would just assume. Free flywheel! lol. Take that off, so you can get to the starter bracket, and get that off, I would also say.

I put several squirts of fresh oil in the spark plug holes, so when you turn it upside down, it will leak out.

To remove these cam covers or valve covers for cleanup and powdercoat, do I just remove the 6 top caps so I can access the bolts under them and also the 9 lower socket cap bolts and then lift off (or tap off) the covers?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...64ba2c30b0.jpg


What surprises await me under there and if it's going to be a couple weeks before they go back on, do I just cover what's underneath them with plastic bags?

When you remove the bolts for the cam towers be aware that the cam followers can slide out of their bores and fall on the ground

Stan, well that sounds fun....

So how do you prevent that from happening, or is in not really preventable, and what's the best thing to do after? Do you put them back in and then use some blue tape across the tops to hold them in place, should you just remove them, and put them into individual baggies labelled for each cylinder, or something else.

I see some evidence of wetness on these valve covers on the new motor and have new gaskets from Roger already on hand. With this motor, I want to resolve all the oil leaks before it goes in so I don't have to deal with the mess I have with the current motor whenever I need to work on it.

Tonight I:

Locked the flywheel and broke the crankshaft bolt loose. Now I'll be able to remove the clutch and bell housing to separate that from the motor (probably tomorrow)

Finished removing the power steering hoses as new versions of them are going in when the car goes back together

Removed the plastic timing belt covers - all but one is cracked, so probably going to replace them as well. Belt and pulleys are pretty nasty from the oil leaks


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5498511019.jpg
4.7 Liter on the Sunex stand with drip tray underneath. More parts to wash tomorrow.




https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8640fba345.jpg
Flywheel Lock Tool in use...




https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...16df68a4f0.jpg
...to break the crankshaft bolt loose




https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1eb9b13916.jpg
Timing Belt covers removed - pretty messy in there

Looking good Pete!

Couple things -

I think I have plastic covers somewhere. If you want them, and then if I can find them, they are yours for shipping.

The cam towers always leak. There is oil on them on this engine, however, because they were covered when I turned the engine over after I put oil in the spark plug holes. Mistake.
So they were dry before that. That said, its good insurance.

Plus, as I mentioned, I think you should use your 78/79 cams.

If you do pull the cam towers Mr Brown makes improved cam tower gaskets. They would be worth it if they were expensive but they are stupid cheap.

Brendan,

Yes, if you have unbroken plastic cam timing covers, I'll take them. The only good one I have is outer top left. I need and all the other ones, including inner left and right. Can you email me pictures of the ones you have?

Why do you say to reuse my cams? My plan was to pull the cam towers but not to remove the heads. Do you think there's an issue with the cams?

Bought a pair from Roger and am assuming that's what he sent since I'm also doing all GB's fuel and clutch line.

Are these the good ones?
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...18a0a05013.jpg

You don't remove the heads. You don't have to change anything except if you wanted to the cams have higher lift or more duration on the 78/79 cams. And they just are in the cam boxes.

Interesting. I didn't know the regular 78/79 cams had higher lift and duration. I knew the Euros were different, but not the ROW versions. If that's the case, that might be worth doing now that you mention it. Do you happen to know the specs for the cams on both versions?

Pulled the Clutch Pack today and washed more parts. Once I get the car back together and drive it with the OEM friction discs, I'll probably put this pair of SPEC friction discs up for sale so someone who needs more aggressive clutch grip can get a deal on them.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...db9e26e0ab.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1815a7e8f6.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6984fd2099.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a86775147b.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2c84a9c687.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ff20af88c6.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4682e72e40.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...682cc5383b.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9bb0f455a8.jpg

Found this very interesting thread on that exact subject, with all the cam specifications, so that's a great tip and what I'll plan to do.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...cam-specs.html

I'm guessing this setup is going to make a significant difference. I'll be moving the compression ratio from 8.5:1 to 9.3:1, increasing the displacement slightly from 4.5L to 4.7L and then if I use my '79 cams, combining those changes with increased lift and duration, this might turn out to be a decent HP & torque bump, especially with the supercharger, which I also recently upgraded. I'm getting kind of excited about this whole thing now, though I'm most excited about not having oil and power steering fluid all over my motor and the garage floor.

Yes.

Those will never leak, if you read and follow the instructions provided with them.

Looking forward to that.

No instructions included.

You have a PDF you can attach here or email to me at petza914@gmail.com.

Thanks.

Common issue.

I have instructions for every single thing I sell.

I have instructions that have me dropping the steering rack to access the motor mount bolts, but those bolts look like they're just securing this bracket that is then secured to the motor by 4 bolts - 2 on each side.

Can I just undo these 4 bolts to free the motor and not mess with the sway bar or steering rack?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5d48614954.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5dfed36bc1.jpg

To pull the engine, yes. That's how I removed and installed my S4 engine. Not sure on the 16 valve engines, but on the 32 valve after you remove the bell housing to engine bolts, you loosen the 2 transaxle mount bolts and slide it back about 1/2" or so and it gives you more room to get the engine loose from the bell housing and remove the engine.

I don't recall exactly, but I think it may be difficult the get the engine high enough to clear the mounts if you leave them on the cross brace.

Aren't there 4 bolts(2 long and 2 short)for each motor mount on each side? 8 total bolts. Or is that later model motors mounts only?

Hmmm. Looking again now those are not the stock early car motor mounts and that looks like the modified cross brace with removable center section. So, not sure what your best procedure will be. I will say, though, that I do not feel like the early mounts hold up, so you are in a good position in that respect.

I thought the point of the removable center was to pull the engine without disconnecting the motor mounts, right?

I thought the point of the removable cross member center was to allow access to the motor mounts and bottom of the engine stuff without having to screw with the suspension mounts.

I researched this and the benefit is access to oil pan , oil pan gasket and rod bearings.

I recognize that 3-piece cross-member as one of ours. We do not make that product anymore. After you have lowered the steering rack, you can remove the 4 allen-head bolts and drop out the center section, making oil pan removal very simple without messing with your suspension or changing the front end alignment. It was great for racers who like to slip in a new set of rod bearings from the bottom after each season or two :)

Won't help you any during an engine removal. Leave it assembled as-is and follow regular instructions for engine R&R. Remember, your motor mounts are late-model style, not the 78/79 style. That conversion took place when the 3-piece cross member went in.

Right, those are the solid rubber motor mounts.

It still looks like there are 4 large bolts that will allow the motor to come out without messing with the steering stuff at all or the motor mounts either. The mounts seem to be attached to some brackets and then those brackets are attached to the motor by the 4 bolts.

Maybe not, and I'll look again tomorrow.

Pulled the Cam Towers from the New Motor today to get them cleaned up (90 degree razor blade method then the parts washer) and have everything put together to go off to powdercoat. Even managed to get both sides off without dropping any of the cam followers / lifters. The motor looks to be in very nice shape below the cam towers - surfaces look good without pitting. I'll take a look inside the cylinders with a boroscope before I put things together.

Here's today's photo set

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f763028bcb.jpg
Cam Tower From End with Cap



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...de57989616.jpg
Both Cam Towers - Followers removed and stored safely - before the surfaces were cleaned up



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5b01045745.jpg
Cams out - planning to use the ones from my old motor instead for better lift & duration



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b3073643e0.jpg
Engine with cam towers removed - you can see the flecks of old gasket material that was scraped off in the catch tray



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6a4c12785c.jpg
Close-up of Engine on stand (other side) with cam tower removed



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f1e9546eb.jpg
Once I finished all of that - reconfigured the garage for summer - boat is out and lift moved to the other bay for later trailer storage. Now I don't have to move the 914 out in order to be able to lower the 928 for ground work. Now that the engine is open with the cam towers removed, I bagged it to keep pollen and other contaminants out of it until the parts come back from powdercoat and I can put it back together and seal it up again.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2341cd3804.png

Here's the Blackstone UOA Report after the blown head gasket and overheating event. Other than the presence of coolant, this is one of the best reports on this motor, so it doesn't look like any damage was done to the internals as there weren't any wear metals in the oil. Hoping when I pull the cams that the lobes looks good without any hot-spots and that I can put those into the new motor when the towers come back from powdercoat.


Should be 1.5-2 weeks before I have the parts back so I'll do some of the work to the engine that needs to be done - replace the oil pan gasket and install the stud kit, reseal the oil pump, and then I'll work on pulling the old motor and cleaning up the engine bay now that I have some additional floor space in the shop where I can set the old motor on the skid the new motor arrived on.

Pete, you are a real stud! Keep up the great work!! Now you'll have a spare engine?
Thanks for sharing,
Dave

Dave,

Thanks a lot. Yes, when all is said and done I'll have a spare 4.5L long block with cams from a 4.7L - no fueling and some other missing parts, but essentially a spare engine if I decide to keep it.

Today I mostly worked on getting the boat ready for the summer since it was a sunny day, but found some time to start polishing my stainless Y-pipe. Also planning to do the 85/86 round tube headers I bought. Not going as quickly as I'd liked, but also not too bad. It's taking a while to get all the burned oil and grease off the front sections - the rear straight pipe went pretty quick. I have a bit more to do on this side and then will flip it over to do the other one.

Supposed to rain tomorrow, so I might decide to pull the motor so I can start cleaning up the engine bay. Parts also get dropped off at the powdercoater tomorrow.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e502b6c724.jpg
At the start


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...183ebde23d.jpg
Passenger Side Partly done


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c805ae6e89.jpg
Passenger Side and straight section mostly done

Very nice. I have the same Y-pipe, not polished.
Thanks again,
Dave

Here's the next question.

I have flywheels on both engines and will need to use the good one from my blown motor on the new motor, but now don't have clutches attached to either engine so no teeth to put a flywheel lock onto. What's the best way to free the flywheel bolts without the motor turning backwards. Actually, in thinking more about this...because we talk about turning the motor clockwise only, and that's from the crankshaft bolt perspective, correct, that means at the opposite end of the engine where the flywheel is located, the counter-clockwise rotational force used to remove a bolt would actually be turning the motor in the proper direction, correct?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...73e86bf103.jpg


If I need to keep it from rotating at all, I figured I could put a proper size spline socket on a breaker bar into one bolt that I'm not trying to remove to be able to hold it against the direction that the impact gun would generate on the bolt I am trying to remove. When I get to the last one, I could thread 2 of the previously removed bolts part of the way back in and use a prybar between them, while I undo the last bolt with the impact gun - would that method work and not do any damage?

Your rattle gun and counter-hold method is exactly what I was thinking.
Good luck,
Dave

Impact gun and counter-hold method worked great on the new engine that's on the stand. There's not enough space for the impact gun in the bell housing to do that one while it's in the car so I'll remove it once the engine is out and sitting on a pallet.

Then I went to remove the starter mounting bracket from the new motor. The 13mm bolts came out easily enough - the other 2 not so much. Finally got one of them using a propane torch to heat it up and then a manual impact hammer to knock it loose and finally the air gun to spin it out, but the other one wasn't having any of that.

Eventually broke off the tip of a hardened screw extractor in the center of the bolt which put an end to that method - I honestly don't know why I try those things - they hardly ever work, and usually just snap off.

After cutting a flat slot into the bolt head and trying the manual impact hammer method to no avail (it did bend the the head of the straight impact bit though), I decided to cut the bracket away from the bolt since I don't need it anyway - my hi-torque starter mounts to the lower bell housing.

Very carefully using a dremel and an air grinder, I cut the bracket in half at the bolt head and once it was gone used some vice grips to unscrew the bolt.

That was fun.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...16e552f607.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...29b4bb920f.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6a8b9c4734.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f2e2691d8a.jpg

You can stop the flywheel turning with wire.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a9f68e9783.jpg

Crafty Alex

Motor is OUT
 

Big Day Today. The 4.5L is out!

Now I'm starting to clean up and swap parts from one to the other and to clean up the engine bay. Took about 2 hours to clean all the greasy dirt off the engine cross-member.

My removal method did work though. Left the motor mounts in place and took the 4 main bolts from the motor brackets out that attach to the motor mounts. Not sure this is much easier than dropping the rack to remove the lower motor mounts though, because you have to lift the motor higher to clear them, I think, and I ended up dropping the rack anyway to clean everything and am going to repaint the support plate under the rack too.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9dc154f5b0.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...034c0fa56f.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...01b66d77a0.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a1ba62a3ca.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c91465e6a7.jpg

Hi Pete,
You are amazing. The work you do is great!
Thanks for sharing,
Dave

Next question for the collective knowledge base.

When pulling the motor today I noticed the cam tower covers, plugs, and the end caps are different between the two motors.

Here's the end cap on the cam towers from my current 4.5L engine.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b30c345268.jpg

and here's the end cap from the 4.7L engine
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ad558d605a.jpg


Since I'm planning to reuse my 4.5L cams in my 4.7L engine because of the higher lift and longer duration, here are the questions:

1. Will the 4.5L cams fit properly into the 4.7L cam towers with the 4.7L cam tower caps, or
2. Do I need to use the end caps from the 4.5L cam towers with the 4.7L cam towers, or
3. Do I need to reuse the 4.5L cam towers complete and if so, do they just bolt onto the heads of the 4.7L engine, or
4. Is there some other magic combination I need to do between these parts to have it go together correctly?
5. Also, which cam followers/lifters should I use - the ones that came out of the 4.7L head if the 4.5L cams are being used with those, or the ones that were working with the 4.5L cams in the current engine, or does it not matter and just use the ones that look to be in better condition?

Thanks.

Hi Pete,
I'm sure there are a few things to do with the engine out, but there is an a/c line that runs along the passenger fender side of the engine compartment. I think it goes from expansion valve to condenser? It's very difficult to change this line with the engine in place. Something to consider.,
Dave
Great work

Other than the hard lines, I think all of these were new 2 years ago

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9911c71147.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6ec62f1c7c.jpg

Pete - opt for the cam tower from the 4.7L motor. The rubber plugs from the early motor are hard to find and pricey, and they often leak. The other cam towers will have nice threaded plugs and crush rings. Much better. Consider it an upgrade.

Carl,

Thanks for following along and chiming in. I came to that same conclusion last night. Having already taken the cam towers and end caps from the 4.7L to the powdercoater, I got concerned about whether I could just put the 4.5L cams into those cam towers, so last night, pulled the cam towers and cams from the 4.5L motor. When I layed them side by side, everthing lined up so I determined there wasn't anything special about the cam tower design of the 4.5L that would make those cams only work in those towers. Upon inspecting the cam lobes themselves, the 4.5L cams actually look to be in better shape too - less dark discoloration on the lobes.

The question I have now is should I use the followers/lifters that were in the 4.7L motor with the 4.5L cams or use the lifters from the 4.5L cam with the 4.5L cam in the 4.7L towers? The lifters out of the 4.7L look like they might be slightly better/newer as the underside is still a nice dark bronze color whereas the ones from the 4.5L have faded. Tops and sides all look to be about the same - no pitting, uniform scuff marks from use, etc.

Here's last night's photo set so you can see what the 4.5L towers and heads looked like, the lifter sets side by side, etc.


Pulled the lightweight SPEC flywheel from the 4.5L motor to remount onto the 4.7. Remember when I pulled the lower bell housing for the clutch and found what looked liked interference damage - think I discovered the cause of that - look at the outer ring of bolts on the backside of the flywheel - threaded part has been ground even with the nuts and the edges / faces of a few of the nuts have also been "shaved". When I removed the bell housing, I created some clearance in the area where that damage was - would you guys reinstall the lightweight flywheel or should I clean up the one that came on the 4.7L motor and use that one instead?


Reminder of what the lower clutch housing damage looked like
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6e3e2e997b.jpg


Note the outer circumference of bolts that are ground smooth. Looks to me like there was interference between them and someone ground down the bolt heads and machined some clearance into the housing cover. Had this happened naturally, the damage to the bell housing would have been in a constant arc where the bolt heads spun through it, not in a vertical pattern as shown.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...168b3db9db.jpg


There is also some deformity to the metal on the flywheel contact ring on the inner circumference, which I can clean up with a grinding wheel.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5be80862f7.jpg


Here's the heavier flywheel that came on the 4.7L motor
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...76fb6f04f2.jpg


,,,so would you guys clean up and use the OEM flywheel from the 4.7L motor or will I not like the way the car feels now that I've been driving it with the lightweight flywheel and gotten used to the freer-revving nature? Will it feel lethargic with the heavier flywheel?



Next, I pulled the cam towers from the 4.5L motor to compare it's cams to those from the 4.7L motor since the difference in end-cap had me concerned that I might need to reuse the 4.5L cam towers with it's cams and that they wouldn't just slide in and work right in the 4.7L towers.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2c22bc2632.jpg
4.5L cam tower end cap (thicker and domed for some reason)


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f68b954bd3.jpg
4.7L cam tower end cap (thinner and flatter)



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cb6c27a954.jpg
First I set the motor at TDC



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7da1c2e737.jpg
1-4 TDC mark aligned (or pretty close to it)



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1961d263e6.jpg
5-8 TDC mark aligned



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...425ce8925a.jpg
Front view of 4.5L before things start coming apart. Tensioner had lateral play in it - normal or not? Doesn't matter as I'm replacing that one with one of Ken's on reassembly.



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...506835a734.jpg
1-4 Cam Tower. Interesting design compared to the 4.7L one. In the 4.5L, the lifters ride in these guide pairs that have flat sides where they meet each other. In the 4.7L, the lifters just ride in machined bores in the tower.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9401955e15.jpg
Is the Dark Brown sludge normal? The 4.7L didn't look like this when I took it apart.



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...134e08cf4f.jpg
1-4 cam side of Head


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d10675e33c.jpg
1-4 4.5L cam on towel / 4.7L cam on bubble wrap. The 4.5L cam actually looks to be in better shape to me - what do you guys think?



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...316b23987c.jpg
4.5L on towel / 4.7L on bubble wrap



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...beb05881f0.jpg
4.5L on towel / 4.7L on bubble wrap. 4.7 looks like is has some lobe wear or hot spots.



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c06d4094ac.jpg
4.5L on towel / 4.7L on bubble wrap. 4.7 looks like is has some lobe wear or hot spots.



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d76f7334be.jpg
1-4 4.5L lifters out, organized, and stored



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...78f4a89abd.jpg
5-8 4.5L Cam Tower



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7eb544cc5b.jpg
5-8 4.5L Camshaft



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d8e1f71a9e.jpg
4.7L Lifters on the Left / 4.5L on the right. Which should I reuse during reassembly. The bronze color on the 4.7s looks fresher, but if the lifter should stay with the cam lobe it was paired with before the other shiny sides are comparable between the 2 sets.


Any opinions, input, or guidance is welcomed. Thanks.

About your flywheel: That a light-weight aluminum flywheel, and it allows the engine to rev faster because it stores less kinetic energy than a heavier flywheel.
The moment of polar inertia is lower – so the torque the engine makes is immediately available to the tires, rather than having to overcome the mass of the flywheel first before it can turn the tires.

That said: it’s a double-edged sword. Because it stores less energy; it also is a little harder come away from stop signs without chugging, requiring more throttle in order to replace the weight it doesn't have.

You may be happier with the stock flywheel from the 4.7 motor. You aren't racing, and you know know what clutch chatter is. I noted you are also replacing the SPEC friction material with stock friction disks,
that will also make for smoother launches.

Carl,

Now that I know how all this stuff comes apart and goes together, and aren't really afraid of it anymore (the abyss of the unknown), I'm planning to reinstall the lightweight flywheel with the OEM friction discs that have the internal marsailles springs. If this combination isn't smooth enough, I'll just drop the lower housing, pull the clutch again and install the other flywheel to see how that goes, but compared to my 997, the 928 doesn't feel like a light, free-revving motor, so don't think I want to make it less so than the way it drives currently.

Thanks for the insight.

I'm with you. Once you get used to driving an aluminum flywheel, I can't go back, either. I enjoy the throttle response too much. :)

Ordered more parts from Carl, Roger, and Mark and now think I'll have everything I need to put the new engine together and into the car. It was mostly gaskets, seals, covers, etc.

While waiting on those parts to arrive and for the powdercoated items to be ready, I cleaned up more oily parts to get them ready for paint and/or install. Also installed the lightweight flywheel onto the 4.7L motor, but haven't torqued it down yet.

Next is probably the oil pump seals, pan gasket, and cleaning up the engine bay.

Also pressure tested my radiator and it has a tube leak, so that's being sent off tomorrow to be recored.

Remember how the inside of the upper bell housing was caked with black crud - not anymore.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...23840112d3.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8151d40147.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4644a3c0b8.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8762bb2932.jpg

Looking great Pete!! You are really coming along fast. I think you'll be back on the road before me. LOL.

Speaking of installing the flywheel, I've been trying to figure out if the bolts go in dry, with anti-seize, or with Loctite. The WSM mentions the torque procedure in several places, but doesn't say to put anything on the threads. I assume this means dry, or they would have said different. However virtually every flywheel I've ever installed or seen installed had something on the threads depending on application.

Thanks Chris.

The bolts I removed had some copper anti-seize on them and wanting to be able to get them out again at a future date, I cleaned them up and reinstalled with a little Marine grade anti-seize. I'm going to tighten them by having someone hold the crankshaft bolt at the opposite side since that will be in a tightening opposing direction as I torque the flywheel bolts at the opposite end.

OK, cool. Thanks for the info. Right, wrong, or indifferent I put anti-seize on mine as well.

You have to be careful with thread lubricants. Most torque specs are dry unless other-wise mentioned. If you add anti-seize or some lubricant, it is very easy to over-torque the fastener because the lubricity allows over-rotation during assembly.

Check some typical torque charts, the good ones call out the different torque values depending on which lube you use. Here is just a simple version I found. Note how, if lube is used, you need to tighten to a much lower torque. Other charts are more precise as to which type of lube is used, but that's more than the average weekend mechanic needs to worry about. Problems of over-torque can include: over-clamping and deforming the parts being clamped; damage (strecthing) of the fastener; and failure of the threads in the fastener or the host material

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...17d05a3c3b.png

Thanks Carl, I was aware of that, but others may not have been. For example, on my 997s, the revised torque spec for the M14 lug bolts is 118 ft. lbs. I use anti-seize on those as well and only tighten to 90-95 ft lbs instead.

Doing some further research on this, without going into the different types of anti-seize lubricants that can be used, if using anti-seize on normally dry torque spec fasteners, it looks like a torque reduction of 25% should be about right as a general rule.

Thanks Carl. Good to know.

I flipped the 4.7L motor on the stand with the intention of doing the oil pan gasket tonight, but the pan has visible damage, either from shipping or from bottoming out when in use.

Do you guys think this pan is OK to use or should I source a replacement. I can clean up the grooves to make it look better and I don't believe it's going to leak as there was a little residual oil in the motor that doesn't look like it has leaked out.

Let me know what you think. I'm a little concerned about the right front corner (as shown here upside down, so the passenger front corner).

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a0f6bfbba7.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...98b7d59e5f.jpg

Hi Pete,
If you don't see any fractures on the fins and obviously the sealing surface, I would think you are OK. I also know the work you do, and I bet you can clean up those fins so they will look very good. Maybe someone else has had experience with a similar oil pan?
Good luck,
Dave

I would try to make sure it's okay and then reuse it. Replacing an oil pan isn't really a major project if it ends up leaking. Of course I've never replaced one on the 928 so maybe it is..

In a 928 it usually is, but in my case, I have the 928MS 3-piece front cross-member where I can remove the center section without disturbing the side pieces, the suspension, or the motor mounts, so I guess that would be an option. I cleaned up the crushed vanes and once they turn the same worn aluminum color as the rest of the pan will probably be OK. I have to pull the pan to upgrade the gasket anyway so I'll be able to see if there are any cracks in that one corner I'm concerned about. Worst case scenario is I could pull the pan from my 4.5L but it has always leaked around the drain plug so I was hoping not to have to reuse it and that motor is sitting on a skid on the oil pan so not convenient to extract it.

I'll probably proceed with this one.

Yesterday I pained some of the parts I had cleaned up the day before -harmonic dampener, oil return tube, coolant crossover pipe, motor brackets, steering rack plate, and the backside of the OEM flywheel which I'm keeping as a spare. I mounted and torqued down the lightweight flywheel to the new motor yesterday.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fb5fb2be57.jpg


I can't do much more besides cleaning until I get a couple of the shipments I'm waiting on and the cam towers back from the powdercoater. I could finish polishing the headers and Y-pipe.

Maximizing use of my time on this tight project time-line...

After running my laps, I DEI Fire-sleeved the new high pressure power steering hose while at my son's soccer practice this evening :)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e7a0dec128.jpg

I installed the repainted motor brackets onto the mounts, then installed some new 4-ply silicone coolant hoses that came with the set I bought when I replaced the original hose that blew and caused the loss of coolant and overheating event that started this adventure.

I'll figure out the best orientation and length for the short hose that connects to the motor once it's back in place.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1bda234f10.jpg

That looks clean and nice, Pete. Great job as usual.
Good luck,
Dave

Of course 'someone else' had a similar experience.

My pan has a significant 'impact mark' on the bottom,

When I did the pan gasket & MMs, we found a small area inside that was cracked. It was still attached on one side, but it had lifted a bit.

It doesn't go through and has held just fine for several years.

Thanks guys. I didn't want to open up the bottom of the engine and then find out it was cracked and have to leave it that way for a week, so I sourced a nice used one that will be here next week.

I'm still looking for some input on which set of cam followers I should use from post 172 below if anyone has any.

I figured you'd be doing the oil pan gasket anyway, so you would be inspecting the inside. Now you have a spare.
Good luck,
Dave

Since you have not gotten an answer I will submit my unqualified opinion. I believe the camshaft and lifters wear into each other and should be kept together. Wear is probably not the correct word but the effect is that each lobe and lifter "break-in" together. If you mix the lifter positions or replace them they have to break-in again. I would install the 4.5 cams and lifters into the 4.7 cam tower so long as the lifter dimensions are the same.

Thanks for your input. From what it looks like, the lifters rotate during regular use as I can see from the light marks on both the inside and outside of both sets so I didn't know if I should use what looks like the fresher set (darker bronze color inside of the 4.7L versions) or keep them paired as you suggest which is also why I labeled and kept straight each lifter in the egg crates.

Engine 101. Engine Gospel. Go directly to engine hell, if violated.

Same lifter on original lobe. Never mix. Any engine.

Thank you Greg. That's what I'll do once I get the cam towers back next week.

If your 4.5 has the original design pick-up with the cloverleaf in the bottom of the pan and the windage screen neat the top, you will want to use those pieces.

Greg,

Thanks again for your input.

I wasn't planning on pulling the pan from the 4.5L motor as it's currently sitting on it and I don't have a good way to do that (no second engine stand), but if the 4.5L has a better pick-up design than the 4.7L I might need to rethink that. By the end of next week the pan I ordered will have arrived, at which time I'll pull the current pan from the 4.7L to see what it looks like inside and figure out what to do from there.

Also, the pan I have coming looks like this inside, which seems to have a windage screen and maybe the other things you mentioned. Is this the setup you'd recommend I use or is this different from what should be in my 4.5L motor?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c258026431.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6194d7b7a2.png

That's what you want. Whoever is sending you the pan, ask them to send the oil pick-up also.

Veritable treasure, right there.

Great news. Thanks and will do.

Did a few things with the little time i had over the weekend. The painted plate under the steering rack is now reinstalled, I cleaned the K-Jet intake to get it ready for reinstallation atop the 4.7L motor once it's back in the car, cleaned and made a painting jig so I can paint the cam tower caps without getting paint on the sealing surface or threads, and changed the sealing method on the ring of the air meter for the intake. The plastic ring has never sealed very well with the piece that's part of the supercharger setup, probably because it is crushed in one area and doesn't align perfectly with the other mating piece. Tonight I figured out when cleaning it that not only does the black plastic ring come out, but the metal base ring just lifts off also. I separated the plastic ring and will throw that in my parts box but not reuse it, then used some foam weatherstripping in the mating grove around the metal ring and this should allow it to seal up extremely well once reassembled so I don't suffer any boost loss at this joint like I have in the past.


Cleaning the K-Jet setup - capped off any openings to prevent the introduction of any cleaning solution. Afterwards, propped the air meter and throttle plate just in case there was any solution entry so it could dry out. In the 2nd picture, note the new seal around the air meter housing - this is what the 928MS piece mates with for the forded air entry.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b63a9a470c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...df977e8f64.jpg


Here's what the old plastic, deformed piece looked like.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...724b4309cb.jpg



Installed the plate under the PS rack

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...577009b5e6.jpg



Here's the little cam tower cap painting tool that exposes the tops and sides, but protects the mating surfaces and threads. I'll lay a strip of wax paper on it then push the plugs through to prevent the paint from sticking to the wood and getting messed up when I remove the plugs.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...74561d5aa2.jpg

So tonight I was going to pull and reseal the oil pump, but this engine looks so clean and well put together, and the pump shaft turns smoothly that I'm thinking this might be a waste of time and just create the possibility for leaks that wouldn't otherwise occur.

Based on these photos, what would you guys do - pull it or leave it as is?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...17be8ec49e.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cccd1b47b1.jpg

I did get a chance today to paint the cam tower caps. I was going to use red but the red likely wouldn't exactly match the red powdercoating being used for the cam tower writing, and they're already a grey color (though not all the same color), so I went with black, which will also give it a little old-school flavor of the black rubber press in caps from the original motor.

The jig with the wax paper worked perfectly.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1522621b8a.jpg

Fantastic thread!

Regarding this pan and pickup, Is it a standard 4.5 pan? If so, should I pick one of these up (+oil pickup tube) for a future engine project on a 5.0 (if compatible) and while they are still available?

I have never seen a factory pan like this:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c0fc08cefd.png

Can't wait to see this car in person at SITM or PCNA Rendwous in Atlanta. Great perseverance and attention to detail Pete!

>

Unless you know it's been done before...

Pull it, replace the o-ring and bolt o-rings. Easy decision.

It was done when the engine was rebuilt, which was only 1,500 miles ago, but also about 16 months. I should probably just pull it and do the seals as I already have them on-hand and would be really mad if I put it all back together and then had an oil pump leak.

What about the main shaft seal in addition to the o-ring an bolt seals?

Thanks for the sage advice.

Replace that, too.

If you have the seals on hand you might as well for fun and peace of mind. Its very easy. After I did mine a few weeks ago I read on here that oiling the outer surface of the seal prior to insertion is highly frowned upon as some folks have had a history of the seals walking out over time if this is done. There is no question that the seals are still good after 16 months, but it would be good to know they are in just the way you want and to have a look at the shafts. My '88 was all original and after 372 months they were not so good.

I took care of the oil pump last night. Glad I decided to do it as I discovers my pump gear is the steel version and from what I read on Rennlist (Stan), and in the WSM, the 1mm shim that was installed on my shaft should only be used with the aluminum pump gear. Please confirm that's correct.

I put everything back together with Driven Assembly Grease and will first run this motor with their BR break in oil, for 50-100 miles or so, since it has some new parts and I'm using the cams from the 4.5L motor and want everything to settle in nicely. The Driven Assembly Grease is designed to dissolve in thee Driven BR oil and not clog passageways or remain thick.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0cb5d64099.jpg
Removed, disassembled, and cleaned. New parts collection for reinstallation.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...035f19e938.jpg
Pump housing on engine cleaned up - looks good inside



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...62e1fa0d86.jpg
Pump gear is steel (ferrous) but you can also see the 1mm shim that shouldn't be used with the steel gear



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...75a2de5d45.jpg
Oil pump reassembled with new o-ring and generously coated with Driven Assembly Grease. Note dots visibe on both gear faces that need to face the block side of the engine. This means the outer gear is installed in the correct orientation.



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a3e37ec328.jpg
Oil pump installed with new woodruff key, 1mm washer omitted, inner plastic cover installed and both the oil pump pulley and crankshaft pulley are reinstalled.



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1c911bf160.jpg
I painted the steel pulleys that are going onto this motor with VHT hi-temp ceramic engine enamel, but not the running surfaces of the pulleys to avoid any issues the paint might cause with the belt.



I also did a little work to the water inlet pipe on the flywheel side of the motor. Mine was badly corroded.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7112995c69.jpg
My 4.5L fitting was pretty badly corroded



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...516f031fc4.jpg
The one on the 4.7L motor was much better but has this extra wing that must be used to mount something related to the L-Jet system. With me reusing my K-Jet setup, that portion is in the way of the assembly, so I trimmed it off.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9026c80b6c.jpg
Water inlet - adapted



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a2c32aec54.jpg
Should work just fine now

The steel versus aluminum pulley is the one you painted red - not the one you have a magnetic probe attached to. It's that actual pulley that is important. If your pulley is aluminum, replace it with the steel version and leave the shim off.

Kevin, thanks for clarifying. All my pulleys are steel and the older square tooth style (not the high-torque curved ones). I installed without the shim so I'm good?

The new oil pan and pickup arrived while I was out of town this week. They weren't bad, but got a chance to really clean them up today and should be able to get the installation done over the weekend with the new silicone gasket and pan stud kit.

Turned out to be a really nice pan with only a little impact mark on the bottom near the drain plug. No tears in the windage screen, no cracks in the clover, and the rubber seal on good shape.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...77f43b7356.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...334dff8f41.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f69a0fd2ad.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bbb32eca20.jpg

Complete with the "later" (superceeded) pick-up to clover leaf seal.....

Gold treasure, instead of just silver treasure,

Ha, more dumb luck...had to buy the pickup separately as the seller of the oil pan didn't have it any longer and this one was cheaper than the others I found - $45 I think.

Nice work here , I put one of those pans in Samanthas engine,
from your photos I would remove the paint from the faces of the cam drive gear ,
since its a compression assembly you dont want the painting to act as a bearing and slowly wear off,
thus creating a space, then the bolt possibly coming loose.
The factory never painted any of these gears neither should you.

I pulled the oil pan from the 4.7L motor tonight to install the new pan, pickup, and silicone gasket.

Is this wear and damage on the crankshaft OK. I assume the important part of the crank is the part where the bearings ride, which I can't see, but I would have preferred that the 2 on the one side look like the 2 on the other side without the chunks and rough spots.

I photographed what I could see of the bores as well, and they look pretty good to me.

Here's the old pickup screen too.

Let me know before I continue.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ba3b9e7025.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5d76c8cb52.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fff26200c3.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5ef9475789.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8b4b882ac3.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4678800c5e.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ee45c63a1c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c2f9a58317.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f2d4346860.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ec89a035a.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ff9c567529.jpg

Nevermind....

Assuming the situation with the crank will be OK and not really having the time to lose what I could get accomplished tonight, I forged ahead with the oil pan gasket, stud kit, etc.

I cleaned all the mounting holes by spraying some brake cleaner into them while the engine was right side up, then flipped the motor and used some Q-tips to get the threaded mounting holes really clean.

I then loctited the studs into the engine. I first put in a couple that didn't have the through hole to see at what length they bottomed out, then used a caliper to set this distance and installed all the studs to the same depth, specifically the ones with through holes where they would turn through as long as I want them to.

I reinstalled the pickup assembly into the pan I bought, cleaned up both surfaces really well, then set the gasket onto the studs and then the pan onto to gasket. Then I put on the washers and threaded the lock nuts on until I felt the resistance of the nylok portion. I'm going to let the loctite setup overnight so that when I go to tighten the nuts, the studs that don't bottom out won't turn in. This will also let the weight of the pan sit on the gasket overnight to get it nice and flat before I torque it down. I'll probably use an allen wrench to hold the stud at the same time I tighten the nut.

I'm also going to change my coolant to orange Dexcool from the green ethylene glycol I had been running since the orange has better anti-corrosion properties, so I put the heater control valve to full hot and flushed the heater core of the green coolant using a hose until the water ran out clear (note one bucket was green and the final one was clear).

That's it for tonight.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cf36cafc27.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...75c490be17.jpg



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5303891eb7.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8413543b72.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4dc628e434.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...745c1356b2.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2bf1997c1f.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5189b07cd4.jpg


By the way, this Sunex engine stand is great. It effortlessly allows rotating the motor and holds it in any position where you stop the handle. There's no "flop" as you cross over the top either. Thanks GB for the recommendation in a different thread that I came across.

I don't see a shoulder on those studs and that concerns me. They also look long, but maybe that's just an optical illusion. The barrel on the stud should look like the barrel around a night-crawler. Without the barrel, the stud will not stop turning in. They are supposed to be installed until the barrell (aka shoulder) of the stud stops further turns, then given a little pre-torque to set the stud.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ff97ac82e4.jpg

Carl, you're correct that there aren't any shoulders on these studs that came with that kit, so I'm hoping the loctite and counter holding the stud will allow them to torque down properly, since they require so little torque. If not, I'll have to replace the studs with a set like you've pictured. I'll do the ones that bottom out first to get a fell for what 30 in.lbs. of torque feels like then do the others with through holes uses what feels like a similar forces, as there isn't really a way to get a standard torque wrench on some of them anyway.

Length doesn't look too bad though, but maybe just slightly long, and only for the 4 in the center of the pan where the OEM bolts are usually shorter, as all the studs in this kit are the same length.

Being the engine guru that you are, is that crankshaft OK to proceed with?

Mount the starter to see if the studs are too long causing an interference problem.

Kevin is right, if they are too long, you will have trouble mounting the starter.

Loctite is an anaerobic product. It only congeals in the absence of air. It is the pre-torque on the threads that stretches the fastener and seals the threads against air. I think, in the absence of pre-torque, the Loctitie will not set and you will find your studs will turn when met with the self-locking nut. Try it and see.

I cannot comment on the crank, I see no pics with any bearing caps removed, and of course, micrometer readings. I strongly recommend you replace the con rod bearings right now, you will never have a better chance and its a great way to boost oil pressure. Besides - its the only way to inspect those rod journals. Replacing rod bearings is an easy job.

Good idea, but that might be hard to test with my setup. My starter mounts to the lower clutch bell housing rather than to a normal starter bracket and the engine is mounted to the stand on the flywheel side, so no way to put the upper and lower bell housings on currently. If there's intereference, I'll just have to adjust the length of those studs during reinstallation.


Here' my starter before I took it loose and I see the potential for interference you're talking about with the studs directly above it.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c1cf751dc0.jpg



Here's the normal starter bracket I had to cut off the new motor
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6dcd5a58a7.jpg

This is the part of the crank I'm referring to - it's on the counterweights and not the business portion that rides in the bearings. A few rough spots and a couple shallow chunks missing. Also, what causes damage to the counterweights since they don't come into contact with anything?

I"m not going to undertake further disassembly at this point, so won't be taking the connecting rods apart to change the bearings. Need to get the car put back together and on the road. If the project gets more extensive than this, it runs the risk of getting boxed up and setting on the lift for the summer as I"m approaching having too much else going on with work travel and the kids school year ending to have the time to continue with it.

I'm moving past the disassembly point and into reassembly. If it has a major issue after being put back together, at least it will be together and occupying less space than it currently is, but hoping for the best.

I'll be using a Break In oil once it's put back together which should help remove some of the oil build up it looks like is here and dissolve the Assembly Lube that's on some of the parts as they go back together, then running my normal Driven DT50 after that.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...438cbdbc17.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0234edb59.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c7942298b.jpg

Those counterweight marks seem a little unusual, but the crank is forged and the major diameter of that section simply did not flow out far enough to be machined off like the rest of the counterweight. Not the best job on a crank from Porsche that I have seen, but not a failure point, either.

Disagree with your decision not to even inspect the rod bearings while you are here. At the least, pull rod caps on #2 and #6 and inspect. That will tell you a LOT. If you don't, and it has worn or damaged bearings, your time with this motor in the car could be real short. Its up to you.

Carl, is removing the caps as simple as rotating the motor clockwise until the nuts for one of the connecting rod caps are facing up, and removing the two nuts? What keeps the piston and connecting rod or rod bolts from then falling away into the cylinder? For reassembly, can the same bolts and nuts be reused or would I have to have new ones on hand, how do you keep the bolt head from turning as you torque the nut since it's on the bottom side, and what's the nut torque spec?

If you remove the caps WSM calls for replacing the rod end nuts.

You can see the slippery slope in the distance....

Yes, I can. This motor only has 1500 miles on it since a rebuild and the videos I've seen of it running and driving seem like it doesn't have any issues. I'm forging ahead without removing the bearings or rod caps.

Quick question - when installing a Porken Tensioner, do you install it with the OEM tensioner gasket (I have a new one on hand) or just right up against the metal framework of the engine?

What kind of rebuild did it get that the internals are that gummy after only 1500 miles?

At the very least (re-) torque each rod nut with a 12 point 14 mm socket to 54 ft lbs. Don't loosen, just a nice slow pull to ensure that they're all at spec.

It's Josh's (ladybug83) motor from this thread that I bought from BC

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...19-engine.html

I guess I am just a little less trusting. Its a long way in when rod bearings are bad. I always feel that a used engine was removed from a car for a reason, and I'd like to know that the reason wasn't the engine. I do not know the providence of this motor, so if you do, then perhaps you can skip some of these checks.

Ah, I see- Josh did nice work on that motor, the head work is first rate and the compression figures look good, but he didn't touch the bottom end on a ~200+ K mile motor. They're _probably_ fine, but at the very least I'd pull the 2-6 bearing caps and mic the bearings, just for giggles. It's $10 worth of new rod nuts and an excuse to buy a ball-end micrometer.

You would buy new nuts and take a few off. Mains don’t wear very much.

I took Rob's advice and removed all the lock nuts and washers that I had loosely installed last night. Checking the torque on the connecting rod cap fasteners, all were essentially properly tensioned - 2 of them moved just a hair, like maybe 1-2 ft.lbs..

Forged ahead with the silicone pan gasket install, but while I had the pan back off took a look at the stud kit that was on the pan of my 4.5L motor, which is the 928MS version that Carl installed during my original engine work, as I thought I would remove any that might interfere with the starter and clip them a little shorter as I have a metric screw cutter. In comparing them, the 928MS ones don't actually look like they protrude any less, so I didn't do anything about shortening them as the starter was bolted onto the 4.5L motor without any interference issues. Also, the Loctite gel I applied last night, held the studs that don't bottom out perfectly secure as I went through the torquing process on the oil pan to 25 in.lbs. It took a number of passes criss-crossing as I went to achieve the torque spec that would remain when I checked on the next pass, but now all 30 fasteners are torqued the same and holding that value - looking forward to a dry engine and garage floor now.

Here are both versions of the stud kits for comparison - Rogers on the shiny clean engine and Carl's on the dirty 4.5L engine.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...06a7c05fb5.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...49a0914fd4.jpg


Then I flipped the motor back over and mounted a couple of the cooling system pieces I had painted with new gaskets, including the inlet elbow at the rear of the motor I had modified and the opposing side block-off plate. Can't do the front water bridge yet as it adds a lot of height and will make reinstalling the motor into the car while it sits on the lift more challenging, which is why I removed them when I was pulling the motor.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ed75bf461e.jpg




Then I cleaned up the pan and pickup that came on the 4.7L motor and will probably list them for sale or take them to SITM.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...dc638c9ce3.jpg

On the rod question, you DO have the three piece cross brace, so it will be amazingly easy for you to do this in the future. Still, without knowing about your time constraints, I would probably do it now because it will be still easier on with the motor upside down.

Pete since you dont have the belt on yet I would suggest to remove the oil pump and fill it with STP oil,
then put it back in, The STP will make it easy for the oil pump to prime and pump.

NOTE the oil is better than the grease and wont plug up the oil filter.

please post pictures of the 2/6 rod bearings and crank for an accurate diagnosis.
I would suggest to use PTFE non setting pipe sealant on the water pump bolts so the next time they come off they will.
Use new bolts for the pump
Same for the water bridge and the HCV housing and block off plate

Good advice as always Stan.

I actually put the same BR30 oil into the pump that I'll be using for the engine start-up, before installing it. Turning the pump pulley by hand it makes a good sucking sound, so seems like it has a good seal and will pump just fine.

What I have tried to do is loop the oil cooler and just before the belt goes on, and everything else is on, I prime the oil pump with pressure. Not sure if that helps or hinders, but I have done that a few times.

Pete, you may want to get one of these. Allows you to connect a hose to deliver the used oil without the usual mess.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...940ce74b23.jpg

I bought one of those, but it was a different model that was specified for the early cars and it doesn't thread in properly, like the thread pitch is incorrect. Maybe I need to try the one you've shown. Will that one fit my early to mid oil pans?

I really can't hazard a guess - I'm a 87+ specialist.

I have a set of those metric thread gauges. I'll see which one fits into the pan I just removed and cleaned since the specs on that valve you posted are an M20-1.5 to see if that's what I need. If so, I'll pick one up. I also think they make 90 degree versions which would point the draining stream down into the collection pan - the risk there being it orienting correctly at the proper torque value so the straight eject one with a hose on it is probably the safer bet.

If you don't have the timing belt on yet, you can prime the whole oiling system and bring it up to pressure with an electric drill. Bits that fit a drill and snap into a 3/8" socket drive are common. Put the right socket on the nut and spin it up.

Timing belt isn't on yet as I don't pick up the powdercoated cam towers until tomorrow. Also haven't filled the engine with oil yet as I thought I might need to flip it upside down again, but will definitely do that once I have it filled up.

Hmmm..... cordless oil-pump!

Nice! I'm learning enough following these threads to get myself not real trouble!

Picked up the parts from powdercoat on Friday and started serious reassembly today.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ab83c04e5.jpg
Parts from the powdercoater



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a4070bbc59.jpg
Since they sandblasted them before coating, I wanted to make sure any sand was thoroughly flushed out. They looked too clean to run back through my garage parts washer since it has dirty cleaning fluid in it now from this project, so I used the other parts washer :)



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5d6477652.jpg
CM tower all greased up with lifters installed ready to go back on



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c8b64e2672.jpg
Passenger side done with Cerakote coated SS round tube headers I picked up from Jim Doer



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...49d37011f8.jpg
Driver's side completed with port for crankcase vent



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1d657f073c.jpg
Both sides on along with preliminary setup of the Porken Tensioner


I have the other cam tower caps (pulley side) in the freezer to make them contract a little, as they seem to be a pretty tight fit, even before I get to the o-ring sealing gaskets.

Beautiful work, Pete.
Thanks for sharing,
Dave

Worked on a few things today, but couldn't do too much with it being mother's day and all.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6ae498d634.jpg
Freezer trick worked and the ends are now installed, but I realized I'm missing a few small parts like the end seals and I need a new bushing on the driver's side.




https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b71635ac2a.jpg
Took apart the spider intake to clean it up. This body will be sold with matching painted legs that I have, but these legs will get reused with the new spider body.


Also spent some time going more cleanup and polishing on my stainless Y-pipe. I'm trying to get all the burned on oil from the prior engine off so it's slow going.

As part of this engine project and because of the supercharger, I'm adding a knock detector even though the early cars didn't use them. This, along with the AFR gauge, and the updated distributor from a 4.7L car that has both advance and retard capability, I should be able to fine tune the advance timing for maximum benefit, but still protect the motor from knock occurring. The knock sensor is a kit from LINK systems, called their Knocklink and is self calibrating. It essentially learns what the motor sounds like under normal situations and then should it detect a knock outside of that normal, will flash a warning light in the cockpit (http://dealers.linkecu.com/G4KNL).

While I was waiting on some cam end shaft seals to arrive, I decided to tackle this one last night. I had already made a hole through the firewall for previous wiring projects, so passing the 2 strand shielded cable through from the cockpit to the engine compartment was pretty easy. The next challenge was trying to decide where to mount the warning light which also has the system controller built into it, so larger than just a warning light would need to be. I thought about up on the windshield visor area, but didn't think I wanted a flashing red light up there at night, considered the center console area, but couldn't come up with a plan that would look nice and in the day time, thought I might not see the warning light if down that far, and then I had a great idea....

Because my car is a convertible, I do not have a rear wiper, even though I still have a rear wiper switch that isn't used for anything. It would provide for a 12v switched circuit to power the knocklink when the key was on, an easily accessible ground wire, and be in a good position to catch it blinking without having to specifically direct my attention to it, so I pulled out the switch from the top right position of the pod and started looking at it to see if there was a way to install the warning light there.

With some customizing (cannibalizing) of the old switch, it looks like it will work perfectly.


Kit packaging and info including the Bosch brand knock sensor.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...46561a7722.jpg


Pieces of the old rear wiper switch and the sensor mounted in it
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3419b855a8.jpg



The sensor is a tight fit in both the rubber switch part, which is held tight by the Jager pod trim rings I use and I also used the back part of the switch that locks it into the dash pod hole
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3ee4f5f1c8.jpg\



Front view
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2f4d08c508.jpg



Close-up installed in pod
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...04ae5d8ed6.jpg



Wider angle view
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e2d1a18a06.jpg



The knock sensor will mount in the center position of the block with an 8mm bolt that will thread into an adapter I've purchase. The adapter is an M14x1.5 plug with a threaded 8mm center hole. I'll install both with sealing washers to prevent any oil leaks. I've already successfully broken loose the center valley plug. The M6 bolt you see threaded into the flywheel side valley plug will be used for the ground location of the knock sensor (instruction say to ground it to the block as close as possible to the knock sensor.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8f2820004a.jpg



Here's the harness that comes through the firewall. Ring terminal is for the ground and the other plug with the sensor wire will attach to the knock sensor once the motor is mounted back into the car. I'll clean up the red wire looping once everything is connected an I determine the optimal routing.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...734d6714da.jpg


The only thing I couldn't test when coming up with this plan was whether the green wire that goes to the rear wiper switch is a 12v switched circuit or a constant 12v circuit since my battery is currently disconnected while working on the engine R & R. I was assuming it was switched since the wipers only work when the key is switched on, but because of wiper parking functions, wasn't 100% certain. Can anyone confirm tha's a switched wire?

Thanks.

That is a pretty neat device but based off their description of how it works, don't you think the constantly blinking lights will get really annoying, especially being mounted there? It will pretty much always be blinking in the bottom of your vision. The information it provides is useful but 99.99% of the time, you're only interested if it flashes red.. unless there's some way to configure that on the device so it only lights up if it detects an issue?

Here's a YouTube video that better shows what you'll see vs the description they provide.


It changes color and blinks during initial startup, then displays a solid green light unless detonation is detected, in which case, it flashes red. So should be just a dim, solid green light all the time, unless knock is detected. If it's too bright, I'll cover the lens with a piece of tint film until I get the intensity right.

I like your knock sensor system. Great job.
Dave

That's not so bad. And here I was thinking of some complicated solution involving modifying your instrument cluster and an Arduino :p

Don't expect much viable data from knock sensors on early 928 engines.

Porsche, in their infinite wisdom, has used pistons with "offset" piston pins, virtually forever. (The piston pin isn't centered in the middle of the piston, but is moved towards one wall (skirt) of the piston.) 356's, 911's, 914's, 924's, 944's, and 928's (up to the introduction of knock sensors in 1987) were all this way. The "rub" is that on all the engines with pistons on different sides (everything except inline 4 cylinders), the pistons have an up and down (different size valve reliefs for intake and exhaust. This means that the offset of the piston, in relationship to the crankshafts is different from side to side of the engine. One side of the engine ends up with the offset such that "piston slap" is reduced. The other side has the offset up in the incorrect direction and the piston slap is greatly increased (But, interestingly enough, makes slightly more power.)

Not their "brightest" engineering moment. And, frankly, a bit "thickheaded" to keep making this mistake over and over again....model after model. Especially "slow" for a company that "hangs their hat" on their superior engineering capability.

When they developed the knock sensor system, the piston slap from the pistons that were backwards in the engine, fooled the knock sensors to the point where they were useless. Porsche was forced to make pistons with symmetrical valve reliefs (in 1987 and later), so that the pistons could be installed with the valve reliefs facing the correct direction, eliminating piston slap.

(^^^^^^This concept can be difficult for "normal people" to grasp. Trust me, it's a big deal.)

I don't know anything about engine design so this might be a stupid question but what about the Cayenne engine? I vaguely recall that they have a similar setup... Along with a tendency to kill themselves with bore scoring and a lot of piston slap.

Camshaft seals from Roger arrived today so Bank 1-4 is now put together. Waiting on the cam spacer for the 5-8 side and then I'll assemble that one too. New (used) distributor with both advance and retard ports installed too with a new sealing ring. It will get a new rotor and cap too.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...130e3bb085.jpg


Waiting on a couple more things that arrive tomorrow & Friday and then I can really start making some reassembly progress - going to be a busy weekend.

Interesting, I guess we'll see if I can pick up anything or if the noisy side calibrates the sensor to a baseline where it doesn't pick up knock on the quiet side very well.

I understand what you're saying about the offset wrist pin location in the piston, as the 997 M97 motors are the same way, and I think maybe the Cayennes too. In some of these engines, they think it might be a contributor to bore scoring as the piston "rocks" during it's travel in the cylinder due to the offset pin position on one side.

My understanding is that Cayenne bore scoring happen on cold starts in very cold environments. My guess is that the piston fit is too tight and that as the piston warms up very much faster than the block it is briefly too big. Maybe too simple minded though.

Kevin Wilson (aka Jetson...) bought a Cayenne while at the last Frenzy. Borescope revealed some scoring and intermittent check engine light. Came with a complete replacement engine. Soon after he bought it threw a code - a timing chain jumped. Local Porsche dealership offered to empty Kevin's wallet. Instead. Kevin shipped the Cayenne back to VA to be repaired, bought a used head to harvest the broken tensioner and since repaired is running great - in fact he drove it to Missouri and back with no issues. My guess is the earlier codes were due to the failing tensioner. The replacement engine is sitting in a storage unit outside Atlanta.

Tonight I used a new tool that's designed to make the cutting of silicone hoses, fast, easy, and most importantly, precise.

On my car I'm running Euro intake legs and a non-Euro body, primarily because I found these beautiful red powdercoated intake legs a few years ago that looked at lot better than the ones I had painted. The challenge with this setup is that the diameter of the leg ends is larger than the fittings where they connect on the manifold.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3598f7e736.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6e99d5646d.jpg


The non-Euro version of the couplers fit the manifold well, but are really tight on the legs, and the Euro versions fit the legs perfectly, but are too loose on the manifold. Figuring tighter is better than looser, I had been using the non-Euro versions and just stretching them over the Euro leg ends, but a couple of them had started to tear at the edges, and I assume the intake air going from a larger opening to a smaller one, without any sort of transition, probably created a little turbulence, though probably not enough to matter since the car ran great.

But while I was doing all of this, I decided it would be great if I could find a source for a coupler that was the proper size on each end with a smooth transition between them, and in doing some online research, came across www.siliconeintakes.com that has all types of high-quality, multi-ply, silicone hoses available. They make a silicone reducer that goes from 1.875" (47.625mm) on one side to 1.75"(44.45mm) on the other, which is just about perfect, as both ends are just a little smaller than the pieces they slide onto, so I ordered 8.

The next challenge with them is that they're about 3" (78.53mm) in length, and the OEM couplers are only 42.75mm, so I would need to trim them down to a proper length, as you don't want them to extend beyond the smooth flange on the leg, and they can't extend on the manifold as they hit the body sides.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6a05e87846.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c868415b28.jpg


Having worked with silicone hose in the past (my custom cold air intake project), I was kind of dreading the trimming down process as I've tried a number of different techniques (band saw with a fine tooth blade which can get a little exciting if the band binds a little in the soft silicone, a razor knife cutting against a PVC pipe edge as a guide, etc, but none of them work all that well, and you end up with rough or wavy edges or have to try and recut a small strip to try and get it smoother, which usually just makes it worse.

Enter the Redback - made by an Australian company, it's an awesome tool for precision cutting silicone hoses up to 4" in diameter. It clamps in your vice, gives you various sized guide discs, a precision arm that's adjustable for the length of hose you want to cut, and uses a razor knife blade that you engage with the hose, then rotate the hose to make the cut. I can't tell you what a nice design and quality piece this is with anodized aluminum, a case that neatly organizes the two sets of discs (a top set and bottom set to support the hose at both ends), the guide pins, the assembly itself, etc - it's just first rate.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1b8353c6e6.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8945954dce.jpg


....but most importantly, it works. and works well !


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7d29b72517.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...35152a6a1d.jpg


I had to cut both sides of each reducer to keep the transition section centered between the two ends and checking the fitment, I ended up trimming more from the smaller end and less from the larger end, as they fit together better that way. When doing the measuring, I wanted the finished product to be just a little bit longer than the OEM ones, but just 1-2mm or so. The leg flange is 19.68mm and the manifold flange is 23.07mm so together, that's 42.75mm and the OEM coupler length is exactly 42.75mm, but the two parts have a slight gap between them when installed. Making the couplers just a little longer would have them fully cover the leg and manifold flanges, but not exceed past the lip on the leg flange, and go all the way to the side of the manifold body. Since the silicone hose is slipperier than the OEM rubber pieces, I wanted to do this to help keep them from sliding in either direction due to the high pressure air of the forced induction system.

What I ended up with is 8 perfectly sized couplers, with smooth and straight cuts - no way I would have been able to achieve this type of consistency and quality without this tool.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...56b18f8189.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c72a083e73.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c6e8ff3cfc.jpg


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...100bc1dd41.jpg


Don't worry, there are 8 of them - one was still on the cutter in this picture
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...869bf16abf.jpg


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1113be7fd8.jpg


Pegasus Racing Supplies is the one that sells Redback tool (I discovered them when looking for a metal canister oil filter cutting tool to inspect my filter media for debris during oil changes). Is it kind of expensive for a hose cutter - yup, but the quality is worth the price, and if you do this type of work on your cars, you'll look forward to the next project where you're cutting hoses to fit, instead of dreading that part of it.


Back to core engine stuff tomorrow.

Sweet! Lots of great details coming from your documentation.

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this.

I'd rather be driving it than working on it, but since I have to be working on it, figured I might as well post up what I'm doing in case it helps someone else with a question down the road or lets one of the experts see a critical mistake I've made that I can correct before going further.

Once the new 5-8 cam spacer arrives today (both my other ones were grooved), I'll be putting the pulley onto that side and finishing the timing and porken tensioner install.


From a relationship perspective, am I correct in my understanding that this is how things should be put together so that simultaneously:
The Crankshaft is set at TDC - red plastic arrow pointing to the line between the T|C on the harmonic balancer
1-4 cam pulley aligned with it's arrow mark
5-8 cam pulley aligned with it's arrow mark
Distributor set with rotor pointing to it's thin alignment mark, which is also the position for cylinder 1

Rotating the motor around a couple times it should always come back to this state, correct?

When I try to manually rotate the 1-4 cam pulley to align the mark on the pulley with the mark on the end plate, it feels like I'm compressing a valve spring and it does not want to stay there. I know once the belt is on and under tension that it will stay there, but is that phenomenon correct before the the belt is installed. Both the crank and the 5-8 pulley will align with their marks without that same resistance phenomenon.

Also I've read that the 1-4 pulley mark might not exactly align with the mark on the cam tower cap. If not perfectly aligned do I want the mark on the pulley to be indexed slightly to the counterclockwise side of the arrow on the cap or slightly to the clockwise side of the arrow on the cap, or should I get an offset woodruff key from Carl at 928MS to make it perfectly aligned, if it's not?

Thanks for the help.

The WSM has a fairly lame discussion on the actual timing belt install. I prefer the one in the porkensioner manual: http://liftbars.com/docs/PKT-S_install.pdf

Its been a while since I did my 16V car, but I did my S4 a few weeks ago, and I was really surprised that I did not have to fight the valve springs much to get the belt on. Some of it may depend on where you do the installation. I think I may have done it at TDC before and this time I did it at 45BDTC or whatever the other point is.

Karl,

Thanks, but with my engine not having a belt on it or a distributor installed, and the cams having been removed, how do I use any of the alignment marks for pulleys, distributor, etc if I set the crank at 45 BTDC? Don't those only all line up at TDC, especially the distributor for spark timing?

Hi Pete.
Your description of valve tension on the 1-4 cam sounds about right. Once the belt is installed, you should get everything into synch, just as you described. It took me a couple of tries, but I was able to get my belt on a tooth that aligned all three markers, to my limit of discernment. Turn it several times and confirm, but I think you will be fine.
Good luck,
Dave

Dave, thanks for the confirmation. That's the plan for tonight and I'm going to spin up the oil pump with a drill before installing the timing belt.

I was told that when Smokey Yunick was working with GM, he made them produce some offset wrist pin pistons. This, of course, required right and left pistons. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze to GM and they quickly stopped doing this.

I believe that the Germans are thick headed enough to always use pistons with offset pins.....because that is what they have been doing....forever.

So, unless there are two separate part numbers for pistons, you can take it to the bank that both the 997 engines and the Cayenne piston failures (in cold weather) are primarily caused by the improper piston geometry on one side of the engine. Porsche "got away" with doing this by iron plating the pistons that went into the Alusil bores (up to the new generation of engines), but as soon as the "bean counters" took over engineering and used "Ferroprinted" pistons, the "gig" was over.

Added content: Years ago, I tried a set of "Ferroprinted" Mahle 968 pistons in a 928 engine. It ran for a couple of days until the Ferroprint flaked off and ruined the bore. Mahle said it wasn't their problem....want to bet they are telling Porsche the same thing?

Again, the "Common Sense Department" would have known this and saved everybody millions of dollars.

So, I put a few quarts of oil into the pan, a filter on, and spun up the oil filter with a drill. Looking in through the water bridge assembly hole, oil is flowing out of the crankshaft bearings.

Unfortunately oil is also seeping from the bottom of the head gaskets on cylinders 1,5, and 6.

What do I do now? I can check the tension of the top head bolts, but where are the bottom ones and will tightening them resolve the issue or do the heads need to come off and new gaskets be installed, where I have to undo a bunch of what I've already done?

Any chance these gaskets will swell back up and reseal themselves?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8d4de8f5b2.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7eb7fd0957.jpg

Previous post might be a false alarm. I wiped off what I saw in those pictures and spun the pump a good bit more and there is no new evidence of oil there.

I'm now thinking that maybe when the motor was upside down and I was working on the pan that some oil may have settled there and that's what I saw when I was looking for leaks. I'll spin it a few more times to see if there's any new evidence of oil there, but don't see any on either side now.

🤞

Look carefully....that "bulge" to the right of the exhaust stud (in your first picture) is the oil passage to the cam carrier.

You need to spin the pump enough to build up pressure to check for leaks, BTW.

I spun it a bunch more and didn't see any more oil in any of those areas, or any others - phew!

So I proceeded with the timing belt and tensioner installation.

Belt on - everything at TDC and aligned
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6456bb3b13.jpg

Turned the motor over 4 revolutions then took these pics.

5-8
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...533c37087c.jpg

1-4
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e571d5b3c5.jpg

Distributor
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2ddaa6a384.jpg

Harmonic Balancer
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a97beba69e.jpg

Then had an expert help me by turning the motor over 2 more times and checked all the marks again. Looked just like the above.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e027066875.jpg
X
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1ee4708b29.jpg

So we put the covers on.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...192b6525bd.jpg


Motor is going back into the car in the morning and then I'll start reassembling all the accessories.

Above timing alignment photos are good, right?

With the crank at TDC, the cam marks look perfect. I'm less confident about the distributor, my understanding is the rotor should point straight forward. I think you're a distributor gear tooth or two behind. But maybe it's different for L-jet motors, I don't know.

Keep rolling, Pete!

There's a mark on the rim of the distributor that doesn't show in the photo - the one that shows is a scratch. The rotor points right at that mark you can't see with the crank at TDC. The rotor should point directly at the #1 contact with the crank at TDC, correct?

Nice progress!
:cheers:

Looks good Pete. I see you have the dual vacuum input distributor.
Good luck,
Dave

Productive day....

• Motor is back in
• Clutch is in, lubed, torqued, spacer pins removed, lower bell housing back on
• Most heat shields are back on
• Installed Hans' oil control baffle, the oil fill assembly, and the oil return tube
• Installed the front and rear water bridges
• Installed Carl's low temp thermostat
• Installed new fuel injectors, seals, and tension rings into the spider legs today.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4461693b4a.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...41507c6dc1.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...40b1f4fe27.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c113f0c519.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c25d52f278.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...590c91362c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...77c594ce75.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ab44b498b0.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d74f670ddc.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...324b2cdbd4.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9b1f77c33c.jpg


Also checked, and the starter will bolt up fine without any clearance issues with the oil pan studs

That is some serious progress, good work.

I think the starter is grounded through the mating surface of the lower bellhousing cover. I'm not sure if the bolts will be able to pass enough current. If you have a weak or no crank situation I will bet that is why and the powder coating will have to be sanded off that area.

Beautiful.

Keep the good work, both of you! :thumbup:

Nicely done. You dropped it in with the bellhousing and clutch installed?

Thanks for the tip. I'll take a look at that today.

Kevin.,

Yes, it came out with the bellhousing on - figured it would go back in the same way. Just the bellhousing though - I installed the clutch again from underneath. With my Z06 torque tube, there is virtually no space between the torque tube and upper bell housing and am not sure I would have been able to get it attached with the alignment pins the other way.

I also had the motor brackets installed on the mounts already so once the motor was in place, fattened it with the 4 long bolts from underneath.

The leveler on the hoist helps a lot, but it would have been better if I had set the chains longer and had the leveler handle on the hoist side rather than the car side.

Beautiful, Pete. This engine looks great.
Thanks for sharing,
Dave

I ground the powdercoat off of the inner flange since my hi-torque tarter housing also makes a little contact on part of it. I also thread chased the powder out of the mounting holes. We'll try that and see if we get a good strong crank, or if I need to remove some of the coating from the mounting face of the bell housing too.

Working on hanging all the accessories today. Power steering pump and alternator are in place. Moving on to the PS lines and reservoir, then the a/c compressor, then might do a wake boarding run witb the kids before diving back in after dinner.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6ade6b5515.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...aa8051d74f.jpg

Do the teeth on the flywheel look worn, or is it just the picture?

I think it's the picture. I've never had a problem with the starter slipping or anything like that, but take a look. Here's are pics of the flywheel when it was out of the car.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c161031767.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...55a0d155d7.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ccfb8bd62a.jpg

Dabbled a bit more this evening.

Installed a new clutch slave cylinder and Greg Brown pressure line for it

Mounted the supercharger mounting plate and started routing some of the wires and plugged in a few things

Mounted the A/C compressor

I"m not doing any belts until the end so I can leave the crank pulleys off and have more space to work on the front of the motor.

Also realized that in buying replacements for my aged power steering lines, that I bought two presure lines of different types - one has the banjo fittings and both ends and the other has the banjo fitting at the rack end and male threaded fitting for the pump at the other end which is the one I need, but I don't have a return line so Roger is working on that tomorrow. Unfortunately for me, the line in did the DEI Firesleeving to is the dual banjo one, so I'll be adding this brand new line with fire sleeving to my parts for sale thread when I'm done with this project. I've ordered another DEI kit to do the proper line that is already installed in the car, but it's coming back out again

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...aa1b8190a2.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5946cb08bc.jpg

Installed:

• the knock sensor and ground for it,
• the power steering reservoir and connected it to the pump with a new supply hose,
• Scraped the crappy looking labels off the high performance silver coil and polished it a bit, then installed that
• Took out the coolant reservoir to clean it out. Tested the coolant level sensor for continuity with the float in both the up and down positions and got nothing. Does the sensor need to be submerged to successfully test it or should it have had continuity between the top terminals with the float in one position or the other?
• Started reconnecting some coolant lines like the one under the reservoir that goes to the supercharger intercooler
• Reattached the dual electric fans to the aluminum radiator. Had a tube leaking and had to send it off for repair, and they didn't want any accessories on it. Straightened all the, crooked fins too for maximum airflow through and cooling effect. Radiator won't go back in until close to last to leave more room to work.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e72e4070f6.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4bb05d7e10.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...52e0bc9697.jpg

Returned from a business trip tonight and got a couple things done.

Polished and reinstalled the coolant reservoir with the new level sensor. It tests the same as the one I removed so either they're both bad or probably both good and they only work when sitting in fluid.

Connected the coolant hoses associated with the reservoir, the Y Pipe along the side of the engine bay and the front smaller diameter coolant hose.

Installed the crankcase ventilation system

Checked and adjusted the distributor position with the motor at TDC and have it pointing directly to the #1 contact on the cap. Installed new rotor and new Bosch cap.

More to come tomorrow.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2b5721bad6.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9fbe45da29.jpg

Had a pretty productive day today, mostly under the car.

Front bell housing and pulleys are installed and torqued to 218 ft lbs.

Reinstalled the clutch slave cylinder after having to take it loose to install the flywheel lock to torque the crank bolt, then pressurized the brake system with my Motive pressure bleeder and bled the new slave cylinder. Clutch feels super smooth now.

Fire sleeved the correct power steering hose and installed it at both ends. Ran the sleeving down to the last 90 degree bend and left it open so in the event of a leak or burst, it can escape it the bottom away from the heat rather than burst the sleeve. Also received the emergency eBay PS return line Roger helped me source, since a new one from Germany was delayed, but unfortunately, it wasn't as represented in the auction photos and the rubber was cracking. Without any other options and the SITM deadline fast approaching, I used a tubing Cutter to cut the line just below the metal to rubber junction and installed some high pressure hose (just in case), even though this is the low pressure return line, then installed that one into the car too. All the lines are connected to the pump, rack, and reservoir, but I haven't filled the reservoir yet, just in case something needs to come apart again.

Installed the starter and connected the wiring.

Connected the wiring to the alternator.

Installed the painted exhaust heat shields, the polished Y-pipe, and the adapter for the SS round tube headers I bought. I don't think this one was made correctly as the holes in the two flanges are indexed slightly relative to each other, yet were too close to allow for two sets of bolts or nuts to meet in the center of the adapter. I put it on the drill press and made the holes larger by a couple of sizes, which then let me pass long bolts through the Y-pipe flange, the adapter, and the header flange to tighten all of them together. It's the only way I could figure out how to make it work.


Tomorrow I'm hoping to get a good bit of the up top work done, like the fuel injection, supercharger, intake, etc so I can then start tuning later this weekend or early next week.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0081debba6.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a9ea7a0b76.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...dfe78456a2.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...588efd61d1.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c035c00142.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3024400378.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...baf819d819.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b84e81d9fb.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8438c448f4.jpg

Accessory belts are in and tensioned.

K-Jet setup is in place with the two primary fuel lines connected.

That took a little work to get it to clear the knock sensor I installed in the valley. Had to swap the position of the knock sensor and the ground, which is a little less than ideal as the knock sensor is now at the end instead of the center, and used slightly taller isolation mounts for the fueling module. I don't think that will cause an issue with the manifold.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f75f2247bb.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a31ff9e30e.jpg

Beautiful (again!) :thumbup:

Got 2 of the 3 new Greg Brown fuel supply lines installed. After struggling with different combinations for a few hours last night and not finding a combination that works since it seems to need a smaller fitting on the end and another 90 degree bend like the cold start line has for my application, so I used the cold start line in that spot to keep the line profile as low as possible at the front of the motor and reused my old cold start injector line until I can sort it out.

Traced and hooked up a number of the vacuum lines.

That's it for today as we're hitting the lake in the 95 degree heat.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8dd86f34fe.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a2e79bc194.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...97a9bc533c.jpg

Looks great, Pete. Don't forget to hook up the retard line to the distributor per <1982 TB connections. (The one way valve too).
Thanks for posting,
Dave

WOW!

This is one heck of a thread. I can not wait to see this car in person!

Go Pete Go!

>

Thanks guys.

Power steering fluid is filled and not leaking (though the pump hasn't run yet), motor oil is topped up for the first start.

Supercharger is reinstalled, along with the belt and tensioned, as well as a couple coolant hoses

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ca544a69f.jpg


Here's a question though.. The fitting on my old motor that feeds the heater core had a vacuum line fitting on the top of it that had a hose connected to it. That hose was T'd into another small diameter hose that runs along the passenger side fender wall under the coolant reservoir.

The fitting I modified and installed on the new motor (because the old one was corroded and nasty) doesn't have this vacuum line fitting. Anyone know what this is for and can I just block off the vacuum line that used to go there or connect it somewhere else?

Here are pictures of the old fitting with the vacuum port, the new fitting and the unconnected hose in the car.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...73e16f9a2f.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c132f34ad8.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...274701fee6.jpg

The radiator with the pull fans is reinstalled and all the coolant system hoses are connected and tightened. I'll vacuum fill the system tomorrow with the Airlift using a 50/50 mix of Dexcool and Distilled Water.

A large portion of the intake is installed too as I had to do some of this in conjunction with the cooling system due to access.

Also installed and connected the supercharger blow off valve.

I think I need to lower the K-Jet setup though as I don't like the offset between the spider legs and intake manifold when I did a quick test fit on a couple. I've ordered some various vibration absorbing mounts and spacers in different combinations so I can set it as low as possible and still clear the knock sensor in the valley.

Lower cross brace was installed last night too. Upper cross brace will be one of the last things to go on so I don't have to work around it.

Reinstalled my previous extended dipstick since it's very difficult to get at the normal one with the supercharger installed.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d3624068d6.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b9a09a1d1f.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a3076a2e24.jpg

I vaguely recall this started as a head gasket replacement... At this point you're just shaming anyone else that wants to do a head gasket without redoing the entire engine compartment.

Yeah, sorry about that. We could rename it the WYAIT thread.

Use the Airlift to vacuum fill the cooling system, which went great. Pulled vacuum to 25 on the gauge and had 5 gallons of Dexcool and Distilled water in a 5 gallon bucket with the feed line and it took about 4.5 gallons. I'll top that up after the first drive.


The bigger news is that the Spider intake is installed with the custom silicone couplers marrying the larger diameter Euro legs to the standard intake manifold.

Took me about 6 hours to get to this point. When I test fit the legs to the body, because I had raised the body to clear the knock sensor, I was about 12mm off on the leg ends meeting up to the body ports :(

I took most of the fueling loose again, changed the way the knock sensor was installed, which let me lower the fueling setup by about 8mm using some shorter vibration dampening mounts that arrived today.

Next I measured the large coupler that joins the spider body to the throttle body and realized there was some space to be gained in that coupler leaving only about 1mm of clearance between the 2 metal flanges that meet in the coupler vs the 4mm or so designed into the OEM one. So, out came the Redback Cutter again and a scrap of 3" silicone hose from my intake projects and I cut a perfectly straight shorter coupler which got me to 11mm of the 12mm I needed. Figured that was close enough but forgot to factor in the about 1mm for the gaskets - perfect.

Here's a shot of the old coupler and from the oil ring inside, you can see the gap that existed between the two flanges. Then a picture of the new silicone coupler installed.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a029b967d7.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6107d670e5.jpg



Of course putting it back in I pinched the hard line for the boost gauge so had to loosen the mounting bolts a bit to free and reroute that, but I got it worked out.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ec5dc1fe4f.jpg

Tomorrow (today actually), I'll connect fuel lines, plug wires, the intercooler hoses, the battery, and maybe turn the key to see what happens.

Looks great, Pete. I'm kind of jealous.
:thumbup:
Dave

Thanks Dave. No need to be jealous. You could do it in a couple months too - just have to decide your new bedtime is somewhere between 2-3 AM :)

I am truly in awe of how much you've accomplished in such a short period of time. Absolutely amazing.

You're right, Pete.
It's amazing how well we work, when a project grabs us. I've been there too. My wife thinks I'm crazy during those periods.
Thanks,
Dave

REASSEMBLY IS COMPLETE....

.... except for the hood and cowl cover as I need to wash the underside of the hood from the coolant steam that is all over it from the overheating event.

I reconnected the battery and nothing went pop LOL so that's good news. Cycling the key to the accessory position also turned on the heat exchanger fan and pump, as it should. That also ran the fuel pump and showed me 1 fuel fitting that I forgot to tighten - it was the old line I used from the fuel distributor to the cold start valve at the FD side. Tightened it up, cycled the key again and all dry.

Tomorrow, I'll fire it up and see what works, what doesn't, what leaks, what doesn't, set the timing and if all goes well put a few miles on it so I can top up the fluids, do an oil change to swap the BR40 oil for DT50 and install new spark plugs.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b4b2cbc790.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...787a9ff7b2.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...eacdae7a49.jpg

That is a metric ton of work, looking good! Fingers crossed for startup tomorrow.

Very nice, Pete. I also put vacuum caps on my silicone hose clamps to save my skin. Your car looks fantastic.
Thanks,
Dave

It may look fantastic, but I can't get it running right. AFRs are jumping all over the place. Sometimes it goes totally lean and just dies. Other times it goes totally rich and then dies. Other times it seems like it's running out of fuel. I've tried timing numbers from 20-30 DBTDC. I rebaselined the mixture screw at 9.5 turns from fully CCW. I put the Harmonic Dampener at TDC and popped the distributor cap and it's pointing directly at #1, I and put in new spark plugs. I tried a fuel pump jumper and a different FPR and no joy, and this is all without ever leaving the garage, so don't even know what issues will show up under load and boost.

I didn't do any disassembly of the k-jet system - just moved it over from one car to the other, and realize this motor may have different fueling requirements, but I should have been in the ballpark.

It turns over much longer than the other engine used to before firing up and it doesn't run very smoothly once it does, then it fixes itself and the AFR becomes 12-13 and stays there a bit, then starts walking in one direction or the other until it dies.

So, we'll be taking the 911 to SITM in the morning but I'm also not really sure how I'm going to resolve this prior to the Rendezvous. Thinking about trying to sweet talk Carl into heading for Atlanta a couple days early to swing by and work his magic as the other motor he set up was superb - fast start, rock stead idle, good AFR numbers, etc.

To simplify, I would disconnect the intercooler feed to the engine intake in order to work-on and get the engine to run correctly NA first.

Once that's accomplished, hook-up the supercharger feed to the engine intake.

This is good advice. Disconnect the supercharger (you can leave it mounted, just remove the belt) Start with it being naturally aspirated and get it running right before boosting it. The supercharger masks tuning problems and can make troubleshooting difficult. When running right, hook it back up.

Sounds like you transferred the fuel distributor from the 4.7 to your motor. Chances are good it has varnish in it from the old gas and being stagnent. Injectors and injector lines are suspect too. Diagnose by swapping in your known-good 4.5L fuel distributor and injectors.

Also: check the WUR if you are using the one from the 4.7 They are mis-named, they are THE control regulator on a K-Jet and critical that it be working right. Again, swap in your known-good one from the 4.5L to see if it reacts better to that.

Thanks for the responses. I didn't use any fueling from the 4.7L motor (didn't buy that with it) - it was all the stuff that ran perfectly from my 4.5 so no varnish issues

Fuel injectors and lines are brand new. WUR is the one from my 4.5 and that seems to work, as when the car is cold it fires up and runs the best, then I think the WUR shuts down and the engine starts relying on the other settings which is when it starts misbehaving.

The intercooler does complicate the issue as it makes the mixture screw impossible to reach. If I pull off the intercooler then the supercharger wouldn't be doing anything even with the belt attached. Could it not be tuned this way with the metering assembly just open to atmosphere?

Maybe try and make the engine run normally first? I always thought the ID of the SS lines was larger, thereby changing the tune requirements.

Things are never as they seem, and CIS is super tricky.

Cant believe how much progress has been made in such a short period

Amazing

Yes, you can sure tune it that way, many believe that is the best way. Don't think that its all in the 3mm mixture screw, it isn't. Check your ignition advance and idle air bleed screws as well.

Have a look at this description, its pretty good although its for a 911: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-analyzer.html

Then there's the bible: http://www.type17.ch/downloads/Injec...p%20Manual.pdf

Totally normal. There seems to always be room for something you did not expect or something to be not quite right.
There is an orderly progression that will always find it, but I would start by:
-triple checking the timing. I think the dist can go in wrong such that it is 180 out.
-check the control pressures. Always a good idea. Fast and easy.
-mason jar test the injection system. Pull the injectors, cut 8 lengths of fuel line, slip one over each injector, and run to 8 mason jars. Jumper the fuel pump, and move the control plate around by hand while watching the fuel flow.

It wouldn't be any "fun" if it just started up and ran perfectly.....what would you do with yourself?

where is the like button.

Um, wash it and drive it to the event, which would have been quite a bit of fun.

How can the distributor go in 180 degrees out. It has the lock down tab that the bolt goes through. Don't you rotate it before installation so that once installed the rotor points the scribe mark on the top edge of the distributor housing? When you press it in, because of the angle of the gears it rotates clockwise as they mesh, which brings up a question.

With the motor at TDC, should the rotor be on the scribe mark before installing, which actually makes it clocked past it when installed, or should it be set slightly before the scribe mark so that it's on the scribe mark once installed?

Also, where in the slot does the lock down bolt usually end up when the timing is correct. Mine was toward the front of the slot but not all the way before I removed it.

It is not possible to install the distributor 180 degrees out but the cap can be. Once the distributor is pushed down home the rotor should point directly at the mark (no. 1 cylinder once cap is on) and that should be close enough to have the engine running.

Might be a dumb question, but how many times does the distributor rotor rotate per revolution of the harmonic dampener? Is it a 1:1 relationship or could it be that I need to rotate the engine around one more time and then set the distributor position. Maybe this is what was meant by it being 180 degrees out.

Hi Pete,
Remember that distributor has vacuum ports on both sides of the diaphragm. If only one is connected (I can see the advance hose), it will act unopposed. This may give a bad timing curve vs rpm. If your timing light says it's reasonable, then this is not the problem. Just saying.
Good luck,
Dave

Pete: WSM, Volume 1A, page 28-8


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0de9235ba.png

Yep, that's how I have mine setup. That's the little scribe mark on the top of the distributor lip I was referring to, so it's not that.

At TDC both cam pulleys were on their marks and the distributor was on it's mark.

Thanks Dave. I haven't hooked up a line to the retard side, but have tried it with the advance line both connected and disconnected.

Sounds good Pete. I figured you had t covered.
Best of luck,
Dave

Read the symptoms you reported above again, and I don't suspect ignition advance very much, or it wouldn't "fix itself and the AFR becomes 12-13 and stays there a bit". So I'm back to a fuel or vacuum issue. For the hardstart, confirm the cold start injector is working correctly and spraying. For the running poorly...and then getting better, I suspect air bubbles in the injector lines and the injector system (fuel distributor and injectors) because you said the injector lines and injectors are new. Those air bubbles can take a while to work themselves out and you can rush to judgement thinking it is other things until they do. Operate the throttle by hand and see if you can keep the motor lit for a longer period of time and see if it doesn't keep getting better and better. The other symptom seems like the WUR is missing an electric connection or a vacuum connection.

Hard to diagnose from here! You'll get it.

Looking for some clarification on the vacuum ports for the new distributor that has both advance and retard function, which my other did not.

1. Am I correct in that the original 4.5L distributor with a single vacuum port was a retard port, and not an advance port?
2. Does the retard port retard the timing when it senses vacuum or pressure (lack of vacuum)
3. I believe the vacuum line on my 4.5L distributor connects to a port next to the idle control screw, correct?
4. On the 4.7L distributor, the retard port is actually on the back side and the port on the other side (where the port on the 4.5L distributor is) is actually the vacuum advance port, correct?
5. Can I connect the one vacuum line I was using on the 4.5L distributor that's next to the idle speed screw to the Retard port, which is now on the back side of the vacuum diaphram of the 4.7L distributor and have it work the same way as before with nothing connected to the advance port yet.
6. This creates a baseline

1. Now, considering I will have positive pressure from the supercharger to factor in also, how do I need to modify the vacuum line connections to account for timing retard when under boost. I have the line that comes off the front of the intake manifold which is where they blow off valve is connected and the vac/boost gauge gets it's info. Can I or should I add another T to this line for a vacuum line and should that connect to the advance port of the 4.7L distributor or to the retard port
2. With the advance and retard ports, do they respond to both or either vacuum and positive pressure, where on the retard port, vacuum will retard the timing, but positive pressure would advance the timing instead or do I have this backwards and that's what would happen on the advance port?
3. How should I hook up the old vacuum line that went to the retard port on my 4.5L distributor to the 4.7L distributor? How should I hook up and from where a line that goes to the other port?

Thanks for the help.

Hi Pete,
According to WSM Section 24 pages 22 and 23, the retard line goes to the front of the TB next to the idle speed screw, label c, and the advance line goes to the almost exact location in the opposite, rear of the TB, label d. You can experiment with your distributor by applying Mitivac vacuum to its two connections. The top one advances and the bottom one retards. (You should verify this.) You should tee a check valve on the retard line so it cannot develop positive pressure (it will act as a 0 psi mini blow off valve). That will allow boost pressure on the advance side of the diaphragm, thus retarding the timing, with no positive pressure on the retard line to cancel it out. You can simulate this boost condition with the Mitivac, and watch with a timing light.
BTW this is my interpretation of Hacker's design, and I use it on my 928MS Stage II setup.
Good luck,
Dave

Thanks Dave. I have the check valve you referred me to and may try to take a look at this again today now that I'm back.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71e8dd4ed2.jpg
Here's a sketch, Pete.