Getting closer to getting the Porsche 928 SCCA classified as T1
 

Ive been working on this during the off season and looks like we are making progress. soon, the Porsche 928 will be part of the SCCA Touring 1 class. I need the exact Throttle body diameter specification.. isn't it 88.9mm or something close to 3.5"?
thanks,
mark

Bueller?
anyone know???

Good info in that link.

Thanks Mark for continuing to carry the 928 racing banner, you're one of a very precious few.

74mm

http://www.928sg.com/intake.htm

ReALLY?????? 2.9"????? I have a hard time believing that! that's tiny... time to rip mine out.. maybe that's the bottle neck!! the euro is 3.3" (2valve) and I think the 85 S3 is something like 3.3 or 3.5. im guessing, but does anyone have confirmation?

Thanks... wow... much smaller than I thought .. I might have given the SCCA guys some wrong info... I have to correct. I wonder if they mean at the plate or at the inlet of the throttle body? 80mm??

I have pics and info on my site showing the big bore at 78mm but a typo on the page showing 79

so, its really 74mm and you bored it out 4mm as it showed on the pics (etched on the TB plate). interesting that the 85-86 has the bigger throttle body. we should probably list that as it is a stock component and you should be able to use different components interchangeably. anyone know what the 85 TB is in diameter? I'm thinking its at least the same as the euro 2 valve which is 3.3" at the throttle plate, which is 84mm.

Thanks Rick! My pleasure … there is no reason the 928 cant join into the fun, right??????? :)

The goal was and always has been to find a class the 928 can compete in , on a national level and stage . I hope some take advantage of it!!!! T1 is a class where the 928 can flourish. im thinking a 928GTS bottom end, possibly the dual throttle body intake, and a hot cam. should be able to get in the 400 rwhp level while keeping the RPM in the 6600 rpm safe range.

IT'S ALMOST OFFICIAL
 

I just got word that the 928 will be part of the Touring 1 class eligible to run this season !!!!!!!

Good work on getting the car classed, now that it it has a class the question is will it be competitive in the class? what other cars are in T1? I'll come down and run a race or two if there is a chance of having some one to race with.

Thanks! Yes, it will be competitive at the regional level for sure, but a little behind the curve with the allowance for the ex-GT world challenge cars they have allowed to run in the class. However, vs what I was having to run against, at least these are production based race cars rather than factory race cars , such as the GT3, or TransAm2.
T1 is pretty loaded and the cars you would run against are the newer Mustangs with the 440hp engines, caymanS Porsche 997, viper, corvette , NSX, camaro, and many others. the NSX was a little bit of a cheater car, but the cars in the bulk of the group were not too far off my times at Sonoma. I think I would stack up a little better at Laguna due to the track and the 928 characteristics. either way, a well driven 928 should be a top 3 car at any regional race, and top 10 at the national level. Ironically, the reason I got a top 10 finish , was due to the reliability of the 928...… funny, right? ;)

Car 51 currently makes 275 hp and 300 tq I could get it to 300/300 with some proper tuning but it's never going to make 400 hp which is what it would need to compete in T1.
Congratulations once again on the 10th place at nationals. That was great to watch

Thanks! yes, it was an exciting week at nationals. I'm just glad the car ran flawlessly the entire time and I had a chance to run REAL slicks on a tough track! they only have a day or so on them, so it will be interesting to see how they do at laguna later this month.

As far as the 928, yes, its pretty exciting to me that it is now nationally recognized and now anyone can run in this class. sure, you wont be able to run with the national front runners, but the idea of the class (fundamentally, but not actually) is to have production based cars with limited modifications. so you see Maseratis , Ferraris, corvettes, all with limited mods , DOTs and with your car, you will be right in the action with a lot of them at any local club SCCA event. AND, more importantly, you can go to any SCCA Majors event, (Super Tour events) which is pretty exciting as well. running a car below the T1 (Touring 1) spec is not uncommon. a few of the guys on the racing board have been doing this for years . I think we need to find you an S4 to pump up!

Just got the word that the announcement one way or another will be in the SCCA Fast Tracks magazine , APRIL Edition.

Fingers crossed!

yes!! lets see what they let us have for the 928. they were supposed let it run as it ran in WCGT.... they let the NSX run this way.. 3" wider , 500rwhp, etc! sick! my goal is to just have the car run in a class where the competition looks remotely like production cars!!!! is that too much to ask!!!

What 928 would you race? Your big-displacement stroker with flares and tires and suspension hardly "remotely look like production cars". How about "I just want mine to be a little "more equal" so I can finish closer to the front!". ;)

Your kidding , right? have you seen the GT2 racers ive been competing against... and by the way, was still able grab a top 10 spot in the national championship Runoffs? transam cars, cup cars (997 GT3 991 GT3), etc...…………. Now, have you seen the T1 cars ? yes, the have big engine mods, HUGE flares because the rules allow for 3" wider tracks.... suspension? of course, all are allowed mild to wild suspension mods...… tires? yes, the same there. so yes, at least the cars in T1 remotely look like production cars..... but still heavily modified. see pics below the ideal engine for the T1 class would be the GTS bore and stroke..... 968 valve heads, cams with 0.6" of lift and I should be able to get the intake mods approved as well. If im running top 10 times with my 375rwhp, I would think we could be easily get near 400 by the above mods. maybe more..... either way, yes, T1 is a group that is more remotely looking like production cars. but look at the NSX , (500hp) or the mustang (500hp) below. these are cars built to the limits.... still way above any mods we have planned or have done on the 928

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...02a0fdd930.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7a2dcba5cf.jpg
compared to what I was competing against!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8d631e4dff.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...35fd0de7a6.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...882f1ec945.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ad84ee14af.jpg

Looks like its been approved but much work to do to separate the 928GTSR of mark anderson and the GTS or S4 and get the proper weights to make the platform on par with others in the class. still some errors to correct in the spec. working on it now

Mark --

Is there at least a draft of the proposed class rules available to look at yet?

Ive been talking with them for days now. trying to loosen up the specs to mirror reality. they seem to think our 5 liters should make 440rwhp like the mustang. I explained, the only 5 liter making big hp 380hp, was one car, and it had modified heads and cams and lasted one track day. :)
I think the best thing is to make 3 versions of the car. 5 liter, 5.4 liter and the 6.4 liter that ran in WCGT. Im still looking for the VTS that they have proposed.
Looks like ill be running GT2 for a while.. ;). But, at least we are on the map, in two classes in SCCA National classing! its a start

I just got word from SCCA that they reviewed my letter and have made some changes. im sure that this will be a long process. ill need to provide them with data at the track, and we eventually will have a VTS that is fair for the class. the good news is, we are IN THE BOOKS for SCCA GT2 and Touring 1 classes , so now you can show up and race in a 928!

I thought you showed up and raced in SCCA, last year???

This is just so confusing....
You said, last year, that it didn't matter if you finished 15th....that really no one cared about finishing first or even third....that it was just about the thrill of competing with the other people....and finishing 15th was fantastic.

And I said something like: "Finishing 15th, to me, was like you french kissing your grandmother".

Remember this? Ring a bell?

You gave me page after page, months of sh!t because I said I had never done this....I always prepared and hoped I could win every single time I went to the track? And that I wouldn't bother going to a race where I was hoping I could finish 15th.


And now you're putting in a whole bunch of time and effort to get the SCCA to make a specific "Mark Kibort 928" classification, so you can finish higher in a class?

Why?

And why would they care that you can't build a 928 that can complete, where it is currently running?

So very confusing!

Good job Mark. There's a lot more "racing" that takes place before any wrench touches a car than most people know. Hours, days and months spent in emails to and from the rules committee is unfortunately all too common when campaigning a car that they are not familiar with. The ECTA and the SCTA have moved my car 3 times into different classes so far... :)

Several decades ago now, SCCA made some drastic changes to some class rules to try and level the field for those with less well prepared cars in DSR. I/we had taken a very aggressive look at class rules, and campaigned a car that breezed past others in the class, even when I drove it. By the end of season 2 for us, SCCA rules were loosened to allow almost twice the original 850cc displacement limits in the class, so long as the engines were "production based". It took our technical development project back into middle of the field, unfortunately. But it is "club racing" after all, where investment isn't supposed to be important.


Bottom line is that class rules are somewhat flexible based on the noise levels from the competitors. The 928 may be moved around some, but so long as there are more [pick your popular and current model] competitors, their voices will always be louder than the very few 928 drivers when it comes to class rules. If you start to win consistently and are a minority player, you are doomed to change.

----

Mark -- I thought there was already a touring class for the 928, based on displacement, horsepower and weight. Am I wrong? That kind of classification seems like it would be perfect for the casual weekend campaigner more interested in the driving than the winning. It's been a very long while since I picked up a SCCA rule book.

Will this be a "National" classification or regional?

With the VERY stock 5.0 S3 Coke Car, it sure would be fun to do some racing. :D

Just because you don't want to make the mods/can't afford to make the mods to compete with these cars, doesn't mean that it can't be done, right?

It sounds like you just want the SCCA to give you a "Mark Kibort 928" class....a 6.5 liter, otherwise stock engine, with big tires, big brakes, and weight removed.

Let's see....there's a total of one (1) of those, in the entire country.....and you want it to be in a "special class".

What happens when someone serious comes along and has a well prepared 928 with modern goodies like decent suspension, ABS, and 600hp?

What does the SCCA do with that 928? You're not going to want to race against it....

Another custom class?

How about we just get the SCCA to issue you a "participation trophy", every time you show up?

I have a feeling that the suspension geometry on those newer cars and the engine tuning and power would make them untouchable by anything but a 100k 928.

As F1 shows, development is what wins races. And we are now on a different timeline for the 928.

(Edit: And money) I understand this is anecdotal - but a modern chassis is just so much undeniably more developed. What if someone shows up in a properly cooled Z06 and wishes to run T1? How much can they modify it from stock and still be in T1? That car would smash. Is a GT3 RS like car going to be in T1? With an 8 speed or whatever PDK?

Exactly To this point a new stock Porsche GT2rs did a 1:21 at Willow Springs. My best ever is a 1:23 in my 928 that weighed 1k lbs less and had more rubber. We are driving vintage cars.

Most of the guys running a GT2RS are bringing multiple sets of brand new technology tires, to the track.

If you had run multiple sets of brand new high tech tires, where each set of tires did the exact same thing (which allowed you to set-up your suspension to take full advantage of these tires) how much faster could you go?

Now, if you only added modern racing ABS to those new technology tires , how much faster could you have been?

.........I'm betting that if we had the money that a GT2RS cost, invested in a 928, the 928 would be faster.

I can see that. You get what, 350k to spend, and you end up making a race car that has the silhouette of a 928. As you know, you can drive the GT2RS to dinner with your wife, and it has A/C and bluetooth. :)

For those of you playing at home:
this is the man at Willow Springs...
I’ll take vintage any day :)

For 350K, I'd put bluetooth and A/C in your new 928 racecar.....

I was very excited to see what the results would be when that 944GTR got "fitted" with a 928 engine. 600 horsepower, current suspension, brakes, a 962 transmission, and ABS would make a 944 GTR extremely fast. Unfortunately, the engine expired quickly, the car got sat on a shelf, and was finally sold. I have not heard if there has been any progress made. (The car came with all the pieces to turn it back into a 944GTR....that probably would be the "smart" thing to do, financially.)

For that $350k I'd buy the GT3RS Touring, jack up the 928, then drive away in the GT3RS Touring. The state of the art has changed over three times in the last 30+ years since Mark's 928 was born. Better springs and tire valves, for instance.

Absolutely no doubt.

But look at those cars....they have over100K invested in them, too. Probably way more.


My point is simple.

The SCCA isn't stupid. They know that a well developed 928 with modern stuff on it can compete (and win) in the class it is already in.

Just because one person doesn't want/can not bring their 928 up to those standards means all 928's need to be re-classed?

And then, someone who sees this, brings a well prepared 928 to that class and dominates?

That's exactly what the SCCA is trying to avoid....

Understood. But I still wouldn't kick a GT2RS out of bed for eating crackers.

And I love 928s.

Mark, when will you be racing next? We’ll come along to watch!

This seems appropriate...

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=265534637655710