928 GT, accelerates fine, misses when cruising
#46
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Assuming the correct set of coil wires were used when the new set was installed recently, then yes.
I agree that the LH should no longer be at (or near) the top of the list.
It is interesting that Louie diagnosed the LH as failing, but, when replaced with a fresh unit didn’t seem to cure the OPs issue.
I refer to my original reply (post 2 or 3) and say you have a small air leak into the manifold which becomes more apparent once the fuelling drops after warm up.
In general you are correct, and on 928s prior to the S4 I would agree that individual intake runner sealing should be at the top of the list since those motors have multiple ways to introduce false air to individual cylinders.
However, on an S4, with one exception, you’d almost have to try, deliberately - with a drill - to get false air to just one cylinder. And if the O2 sensor is working, the MAF is fresh-ish and the false air isn’t pretty massive, the 02 control loop will adjust for a general engine-wide lean condition.
The exception is the lower injector o-ring. On an S4/GT/GTS that o-ring is - of course - a unique part. The ‘standard’ o-ring isn’t thick enough and if used has a high probability of allowing false air into the cylinder. Not 100%, just high.
Your post caused me to re-review this thread. The OP recently (this summer) had his mechanic do a partial intake refresh.
I asked the op (macerl) what was done with the injectors. They had to come out to do the intake. Macerl responded with “injector o-rings”. If we assume that the correct o-rings were used then false air goes to the bottom of the list.
It is not crystal clear if this behavior was noticed before or after the partial intake refresh.
We do not know, for sure, if the intake gaskets were replaced. Macerl didn’t specifically list them. Reuse of old gaskets might result in the same failure-to-seal problem you had. But, damn would it be not smart to reuse 27-year-old intake gaskets. Or even 10-year-old intake gaskets. More like 5. No, really why wouldn’t a professional use new regardless?
So, my logic is:
If we assume that Macerl’s mechanic has typical professional risk adversion and used new intake gaskets (and presumably new pressure washer gaskets too) but isn’t well-versed in ‘87-‘95 928 lore, mis-sized lower injector o-rings are the source of any false air to individual cylinders.
I still bet on bad spray pattern from one or more injectors since they were apparently not (internally) cleaned during the refresh. If Macerl sends his injectors out and specifically specifies/reminds that the correct over-sized o-rings must be used then both potential problems are solved.
On the other hand the WTF? $h1+ I have see done to 928s by ‘professional mechanics’ is a never ending source of amazement.
#47
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- a failing LH (why it happened right away with the ‘old’ LH)
- the period of time it takes the LH’s adaptive O2 system to ‘adapt’ (why it took 30 minutes the first time)
- the period of time it takes the 02 sensor to warm up (why it takes 5 minutes)
To test, disconnect the battery for a minute. Reconnect and test drive. I’ll bet it takes about 30 minutes to start its missing - assuming you take the same route in the same spirit as before. Vastly different result would be interesting.
Still, all consistent with dirty injector(s) or - as per Marti - “weird” false air due to a screw-up.
#48
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Thank you all. I will confirm with my mechanic what exactly was changed with the partial refresh.
I erroneously reported earlier that the O2 sensor was changed. It was not.
Will report back after talking with mechanic, Stan Kostewicz (STASHU'S) near Orlando.
I erroneously reported earlier that the O2 sensor was changed. It was not.
Will report back after talking with mechanic, Stan Kostewicz (STASHU'S) near Orlando.
#49
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Parts replaced this past year:
- Idle stabilizer: 928-606-161-02
- Throttle switch: 944-606-113-01
- Intake manifold gasket (x 2): 928-110-580-02
- Injector o-ring kits (x8): 928-110-904-00
- Crankshaft position sensor: 944-606-115-00
- Knock sensor (x2): 911-606-141-00
and thermostat, with gasket, housing o-ring and water outlet gaskets (4).
and spark plugs (8), wires (8), coil wires (2), distributor caps (2), rotors (2)
I will check the spark plugs for oil as suggested.
- Idle stabilizer: 928-606-161-02
- Throttle switch: 944-606-113-01
- Intake manifold gasket (x 2): 928-110-580-02
- Injector o-ring kits (x8): 928-110-904-00
- Crankshaft position sensor: 944-606-115-00
- Knock sensor (x2): 911-606-141-00
and thermostat, with gasket, housing o-ring and water outlet gaskets (4).
and spark plugs (8), wires (8), coil wires (2), distributor caps (2), rotors (2)
I will check the spark plugs for oil as suggested.
Last edited by macerl; 01-13-2019 at 06:55 PM.
#52
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Are the coils original to the car? I ask because I had an 87 where they used the wrong coil leads for the coil itself. In fact, I think the coils were different. The coil wire/boot would not seat in the coil and would miss.
Maybe a picture of the coil end and the top of the coil?
Just grabbing at straws here.
Maybe a picture of the coil end and the top of the coil?
Just grabbing at straws here.
#54
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87+ have a post in the middle of the coil. Earlier do not.
#55
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coil and leads checked good, but not new. Mechanic troubleshot with spares from a different car. Did not fix issue.
Fuel injectors back and installed. no fix.
Even with LH and EZK just back from Otto's in Portland, mechanic swapped with other LH and EZK from S-4; no fix.
Put in new throttle position sensor, no fix.
Engine missing seems to be like engine actually totally fails to fire for a cycle or two, then comes back.
Seems to be more RPM related than throttle related. When driving appears at cruising speed; however, mechanic has been able to recreate issue in the garage at other RPMs, but also at a low load situation.
Car still pulls strong during acceleration without any issues of misfire or power loss.
Fuel injectors back and installed. no fix.
Even with LH and EZK just back from Otto's in Portland, mechanic swapped with other LH and EZK from S-4; no fix.
Put in new throttle position sensor, no fix.
Engine missing seems to be like engine actually totally fails to fire for a cycle or two, then comes back.
Seems to be more RPM related than throttle related. When driving appears at cruising speed; however, mechanic has been able to recreate issue in the garage at other RPMs, but also at a low load situation.
Car still pulls strong during acceleration without any issues of misfire or power loss.
#56
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On my '85 I had an intermittent "stumble" but only when it rained. And then not every time. Drove me nuts! It turned out to be the ignition control modules.
And when I replaced them, the old thermal conducting grease was rock hard.
Don't know if this could be a solution, but thought I'd throw it out there. You never know.
And when I replaced them, the old thermal conducting grease was rock hard.
Don't know if this could be a solution, but thought I'd throw it out there. You never know.
#58
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I know there is considerable discussion and opinion concerning in-tank fuel pump and its necessity.
- Mechanic had checked fuel pressure during idle, cruise and acceleration. Even when "missing" occurred, pressure was ok. However, he said pressure does not always mean volume.
His analysis was the engine seemed to be cutting off completely. He checked fuel pumps and after removing in-tank pump and checking on the bench, it was non functional.
- So, have ordered new in-line pump (928-608-013-01) (had to check multiple places, not cheap. Also ordered associated seal, 928-201-187-02).
Other fuel parts are not as expensive, so on ~30 year old car also elected to order in-line fuel pump 928-604-104-03 and filter 928-110-253-06.
Sonnen Porsche had all the parts and at a competitive price.
- Mechanic had checked fuel pressure during idle, cruise and acceleration. Even when "missing" occurred, pressure was ok. However, he said pressure does not always mean volume.
His analysis was the engine seemed to be cutting off completely. He checked fuel pumps and after removing in-tank pump and checking on the bench, it was non functional.
- So, have ordered new in-line pump (928-608-013-01) (had to check multiple places, not cheap. Also ordered associated seal, 928-201-187-02).
Other fuel parts are not as expensive, so on ~30 year old car also elected to order in-line fuel pump 928-604-104-03 and filter 928-110-253-06.
Sonnen Porsche had all the parts and at a competitive price.
#60
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yes, the missing at cruise speeds has gone away..
Now working the old issue of engine dying when engine winding down from cruise speed to idle.
Re-looking vacuum problems. Brake booster has vacuum when engine running but will not hold any vacuum when engine off.
Am in process of removing booster (following instructions from work shop manual and other posts). Will need son-in-laws help with depressing brake pedal from drivers seat and vice-gripping rod from engine compartment.
/r Mace
1990 GT
Now working the old issue of engine dying when engine winding down from cruise speed to idle.
Re-looking vacuum problems. Brake booster has vacuum when engine running but will not hold any vacuum when engine off.
Am in process of removing booster (following instructions from work shop manual and other posts). Will need son-in-laws help with depressing brake pedal from drivers seat and vice-gripping rod from engine compartment.
/r Mace
1990 GT