jcorenman

I respectfully disagree on the second point. The low-mileage "garage queen" numbers are tiny, almost by definition, and not a driver of the "market". You may be correct that 95% of the folks here like "projects", but this is a small part of the 928 universe. There are plenty of folks who bought (and still buy) these cars because they are terrific road cars, and are willing to do what it takes (in terms of money, time, or both) to have one that can drive to the store or do a cross-country trip with no drama.

According to many on this list, we paid too much ten years ago for our well-maintained GT, with 150K miles on the clock (link). We've nearly doubled that mileage, and spent countless hours and a lot more than the original 14K in the process. And it is a better car now than it was then. Drive, maintain, drive... the cycle can go forever, with these cars. In the end the "project" is simply the means to the goal: A terrific way to get from point A to point B without having to eat airline food.

Welcome!! And good hunting! What you want is out there.

GregBBRD

I already need to clone myself....and that person is Kyle, my son. Berkeley economic/business graduate...taking over the shop. Yup, that's right...GB cars and GB engines have a limited time left to be built.

Currently, I'm finally "down" to under 30 of these cars to work on...and I don't think a single car has less than 100,000 miles on it! I've got 5 engines apart in various stages of having machine work done, three of which are 5.9 liter versions. Another arrived today, with another coming next week. I ordered 6 more custom stroker cranks, today....I'm completely out....again.

And I have zero customers that are "flippers"....only people that are "keepers".

I think that I"ve got a pretty good idea of what is happening in the "928" world....and what people, (other than the "home" repair guys on this Forum) are doing/want to do/desire in a car.

I believe there is​​​​​ a market for a restored "mid-priced" 928. ...and I'm building one (actually more than one) of those, right now.

Turn key perfection. No excuses. No list of things to do. Nothing to think about doing. Wash it and drive it, like it waa 1991 and you picked it up at the dealer. No cheap ***, sub par parts. The best of the best parts and labor.....combined into one of the best 928 "starting points" that I've seen, in years.

Yup, even at 40K, I won't make a dime on it. Zero labor will be recovered....cost of car, cost of parts only, is my goal. Purely a "loss leader" to test and establish the market. The "next one", if this plays out (already under construction), will be twice as much....because that is the minimum of what it costs to do this level of a 928 Porsche. (The average early 911 restoration currently costs 150K...with 1/3 of the parts in a 928. .And no.one asks about the mileage of the "starting" car...it simply doesn't matter, when the car is restored.)
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​​​​​.....And. If my "experiment" turns out to be a "bust", I'm going to end up with one of the very best 928's around....regardless of what the odometer says.

There's no downside, for me.

chart928s4

Most people don't know anything about 928s. I state this with firsthand authority - I was one of them until 3 years ago when I bought one. Lowish mileage (64K), seller disclosed the A/C didn't work but it test drove nicely so I bought it. When picking it up, every time I pulled up to a stop light it stalled (bad TPS). Then the driveshaft broke on the way home from getting 4 brand new Bridgestones. Over the course of 18 months all the maintenance and repair was gradually completed. I spent more than what I paid for it on service by the top NE 928 guy and also did a ton of work myself. This beautiful car is now mechanically perfect, in many ways better than new. But in retrospect I obviously overpaid.

However, I had no idea about all that when I first went looking. So would I have bought the car at 2x+ what I paid? No. Maybe I'm not too bright but the idea of plopping down the maintenance $ in advance is a big psychological barrier. I suspect the car's value is around 1.5x my purchase price.

So the question, is there a market? Yes, for the tiny set of knowledgeable buyers who want a good car and recognize the value, or for current 'once burned' 928 owners who like me, love the car. No, the typical BaT buyer won't pay that for 160K S4.

BTW: @Greg, does it come with a warranty?

Red Flash

I think you could also add a third category of person.

3) Those who want the best/lowest mile example they can buy and will pay the premium on a perfect car. But also are ready to wrench, because they know that even a so-called premium car needs work to make it reliable (if it doesn't come from one of the top mechanics on this forum at least).

One or two people I know including myself fit into this category.

By the way, please feel free to PM me with the information about a 60kmile GT that won't sell for KUSD 28. I know somebody who has been looking for a GT like that for a year now. If he hasn't finally given up, I'm sure he would buy it. He made 2 offers trying to buy back the 91 GT he sold me in 2015! LOL.

Let me state the obvious here. The problem is that no one really knows the actual quality of work done by another mechanic. Now, if somebody came to me with a car "completely sorted" by Mr. Merlin, Worf928, Greg or Sean, paying for the maintenance in advance would not be a problem for me. But with these guys I either know them personally or know much about their reputation. If someone is new to the 928 world, he won't have such information as a guidance. So yeah, I understand the psychological barrier. It's just simple healthy mistrust after observing that most mechanics don't put all the bolts back that they take out...

linderpat

And following the market for these cars shows that the average early 911 is no longer selling at those levels. Those folks are considerably upside down. Yes, there are exceptions, such as low mileage long hoods and factory slant noses (again, lower mileage cars). Miles do matter to collectors who pay up. And for those who want a well sorted driver with higher miles, one can buy a modern 911 that has many if not all of the characteristics of the 928 and drive the wheels off it and still have a sub 75K miles car.

Your audience is not large - it consists of those (i) who want specifically a 928; and (ii) who want one that is a turn-key driver; and (iii) know who you are (and the other very small handful of 928 experts on the planet); and (iv) based on the first three things, do not care about the miles. That is a small sample population. If I was shopping, I'd buy your car in a heartbeat for whatever you ask (within reason) because I fit all 4 things. However, most of the folks who fit all 4 criteria are already here, and are not shopping.
Nevertheless, I will be following your experiment and am looking forward to seeing how it plays out - it will portend lots about the current state of affairs on the 928 community. There always is a premium attached to cars that have gone through the hands of folks like you, Stan and Sean. What that premium is, is the question.

One technical question that I have is about the miles on the chassis. Even if the full drive line is sorted, what about all of the rubber bushings and other things that make the car ride and perform like a 928, and the electrical and other stuff behind the dash (electronics, rubber bits for a/c actuators, etc). It would seem that the miles affect those things too? How far did you take this project? Seems that if every system was re-sorted, the costs would be prohibitively high?

hlee96

Greg, don't get me wrong. I am not saying your car is not worth $40-50k after all said and done, I just don't think there's market out there yet. Except for a few people here on Rennlist, collectors/enthusiast are not well versed enough about 928 yet to know the real value of your sorted cars.

As you know, I am one of the few "dumb people" (what others will surely think) that are actually buying high mileage cars that are well sorted (Jake's for example) and am determined to sell my "garage queen 1 owner" 21k '89 S4 auto to finance a "Greg Brown built" OB that will cost me north of $60k when all said and done.

I am also putting in ~$40k after paint/interior on a high mileage Jubilee that Sean Ratts is working on for me.

I know the values of great cars being done by great people/mechanics, just not sure how the other 99.9% of the population or even the die hard Rennlisters will think when you are trying to sell to the public.

For example: my Weissach #155 was "the best Weissach" that Stan has ever seen and I put money in it thinking I would keep it forever (inlaw's situation prompted sell); however, even though I sold it without losing money, it sold for ~25% less than who many here thought it would sell for when the hammer struck on BaT. Still hurting about the car (not the money).

Again, I think your car is worth whatever you think it is worth, bc we all know you're not doing this for the money, but your passion to make aware to a broader audience what truly great these cars are!

-Hoi

Dmckenzie

This is almost what I would expect would be my case (with my luck) and why I'm still wondering if I'm not better off just taking the poor beast in the picture and build back up. Not smart, I know. Paint and interior all needs to be redone. I think it had an accident at some point, but not sure, just know there's been some repainting done. And when I tracked down it's former mechanics (Dieter and Wolfgang, no less - I am not making that up), I learned they serviced it from 2002-2014, and the odom was at 185K the whole time! That's why if someone like Greg had it done already, I'd be first in line.

Thanks! I think - you guys are already killing my work productivity, as I fall down the rabbit hole of info here...

I'd be remiss in not mentioning how Kyle and Jake (also at Greg's) were incredibly generous with their time talking to me one morning when I called out of the blue, running my situation by them. All car stuff aside, they were just good people to talk to. I don't see that much anymore. Kind of made my day.

Wisconsin Joe

Lots of interesting opinions and insights here. Perhaps one of the better 'how much is it worth' discussions in quite a while.

For this particular car, it has a few shortcomings. It's an auto. While that really isn't a 'flaw' in a GT like the 928 is, it's perceived as one. Too many people see the word "Porsche" and think "It needs to be a manual." To be totally honest, I am one of those people. My 928 is a five speed, I really didn't consider getting an auto. While I know better today, I still would pay more for a 5 speed.

It's also high miles. And while (again) I agree that these cars are easily capable of going a lot more than that, the perception is that a 'good' car is low miles. I understand that this one is 'just getting broken in" and would pay a fair price for it despite the mileage, far too many people won't.

The reality is that 928s have been perceived as "low value" cars for a long time. And while certain cars (OBs, GTSs, GTs) are increasing in value, the only ones seeing serious price jumps are original, low mile examples. That is typical for any collectible car.
The high value examples are going to be 'collector grade' cars. "Drivers" (which this is an excellent example of) will lag behind.
While this one is in amazing condition, the miles will keep it out of the 'collector' class.

Despite the fact that many of us on here appreciate this car for what it is, understand the provenance that a "Greg Brown Sorted Car" carries, and would like to see it go for $35k - $40k, the reality is that we represent a small fraction of the 928 world. And most of us are not altruistic enough to pay that much over market value.

And the reality is that market value for an auto S4 with that kind of mileage is probably close to $20k.
If Greg isn't willing to take that for this car (which I think is an entirely reasonable position to take), then he's going to have a hell of a demo/loaner car.

Last, but not least - I wouldn't try to sell it now. While the 'land of milk and honey' sees the seasons of "Dry/Fire" and "Rainy/Mudslide", the rest of us see September as "Get ready, winter is coming."

For anyone north of I-70, buying this car right now would mean "drive it for a month, then put it away until spring." This is the worst possible time to sell a boat, motorcycle, or 'summer' car.

I think you might see a 10% jump in offers if you wait until April to sell it.

GregBBRD

Interesting point.

Living in Soithern California my entire life, I never consider the weather as being a factor in anything.

Perhaps I should.




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GregBBRD

Why not?

Rennlist School of Business:

Put 35-40K in a car (not including labor), only be able to sell it for 15K (according to this Forum), include a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty, too!

Maybe I can make sense of that with more volume.....

the flyin' scotsman

hope you get every penny your asking for Greg

http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/928%20S4/Mont-Royal/QC/5_38545600_20150812092118987/?loc=H4T1C9&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInc6-8v-93QIVipN-Ch06xQs7EAEYASADEgIpvPD_BwE

http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/928/Mont-Royal/QC/5_38718234_20150812092118987/?loc=H4T1C9&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInc6-8v-93QIVipN-Ch06xQs7EAEYASAEEgL_RPD_BwE

chart928s4

There could be a buyer for Greg's car reading this right now. This is the most 928-maintenance-aware crowd on earth. 35-40K is not outrageous for a perfectly sorted high mileage car (especially with a warranty!). Pay it now and hedge the future, or pay it later randomly after spending some time on the side of the road. Speaking from experience, the utility value of driving the heck out of it immediately is (would have been) fantastic.

But I really hope the Autotrader guy gets his price to really blow a hole in the valuation curve. IIRC Rob Edwards sold an iris blue S4 restoration a year or so ago and the new Rennlister owner brought it to an event where I saw it. It looked stunning and Rob's reputation is as a "sorter" so I imagine it was in pretty good shape. Again IIRC, the price was very buyer-friendly.

linderpat

Malcolm, I'd love to see prices stick like the one you posted. Look at the miles on it however - 34000 km. That's what we are really talking about here. The perception of high value when attached to high miles. I don't think anybody is saying that there are not 928s out there commanding top dollar; there are, and prices are most certainly on the upswing. What's pulling the prices up are low miles well kept and presented examples. Greg's car fits the bill on everything except the miles. For us in the know, the miles are not an issue as to true value. But we are a small population. Let's see what it does on the open market - I am always surprised to see cars go or more than I thought they would, or less than I thought they would. I am also surprised when it rains when the weather guy said it was going to be sunny. Same thing - cannot predict, only put it out there and play the odds and see what happens. None of us really know.

hlee96

Rob's (IIRC actually Mark Anderson's) car was a completely restored GT with complete leather interior and root wood panels. It also had high mileage (>150k miles), but it is a GT and all its desirability too over a S4. It was sold on BaT lower than I expected, (<$35k?). Again, the mileage held it down.

the flyin' scotsman

Ed, first and foremost Im a driver so may not fully understand why some buy low mileage cars for high dollars only to keep them somewhat hidden away and only publicly presented at car shows/events.

As a driver and also an owner who has done all my 928 maintenance for ~20 years it is easy to get to level of the ask money from Greg to buy then then get a 928 well sorted. When I really put some thought into this my costs are all in parts as my labour is my time.

I also hope the low mile GTSs sell for their ask as I own a 5 speed thats has a 'for sale' sticker