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I believe that Greg will be right about a good market for a well sorted 928 especially with his moniker on it.
Everyday day I see a whole different World of 928 owners who have mostly never heard of Rennlist or BAT. They do not hang around in forums and money seems no object.
They buy a 928 and then invest a ton of money into the car - $25k to $35k plus in parts alone is not unusual (I know because I supply the parts) - most do not do their own work but commission the work through specialist restoration shops.
This happens World Wide and not just in the USA. Costs alone must run into 6 digits easily.
As a parts company mostly in the 928 market I have never been busier - I find it hard to keep up with demand.
I have one client in Hong Kong who has replaced nearly every part on his GTS - and I mean everything - he has his own Project Manager and a team of technicians working on his car. He has spent enough with me to easily put two of my kids through college. Imagine the cost of the labor alone.
Greg look at what you charge for a stroker along with all the goodies - people pay you a ton of money to do this with no real expectation of realizing the value spent if the car was sold. Same applies to you doing what your are doing with this car.
As the 928's continue to climb in value more and more well healed potential owners will be looking for cars like yours and you will be able to charge a premium for a well sorted car.
Keep doing what you are doing - I get calls every week looking for this type of car and will send them your way.
Check out what Bruce Buchanan did with his car in Australia.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission? George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
^ Very interesting insight Roger. So the question is, how does Greg reach that kind of market efficiently? Is word of mouth his best/only avenue? Also do those same clients of yours that have no idea of Rennlist or BaT know who Greg Brown is? Because that's the biggest part of the equation in my mind. If someone with essentially no budget would rather buy a needs-nothing 928 with 160K miles than a low mile question mark, that same person I would think would want be sure of what they are buying and the reputation of the builder would matter at that point. Or do you find that these deep pocket clients essentially are fine with continually throwing money at a car until it finally is the way they want it regardless of how much it costs in the end?
Roger reinforces the already 928 owner. He's a guy who's not in the market, he's made the choice, and now will do anything and everything to the car as needed. The guys out there are looking for a 928 are going to do what classic car buyers do. They shop. Some sub-set of the shoppers are going to look at top end 928s. Some of those few shoppers are going to evaluate the field, and look at where their money will be best spent. While WE know that 160k miles is meaningless in 928 miles, the rest of the known planet will discount it when compared to the rest of the offerings. And yes, even in the face of a lower mileage car, which is NOT prepped as well. Them's the breaks.
Mr. Brown needs a YouTube channel.
Introduce yourself and your remarkable expertise to the same folks who regularly watch Jay Leno's Garage and Doug Demuro's reviews.
Your attention to detail, knowledge, and quality will become quickly obvious, and so will the difference between what you are capable of doing to a 928 as compared to the average "high-end seller".
^ Very interesting insight Roger. So the question is, how does Greg reach that kind of market efficiently? Is word of mouth his best/only avenue? Also do those same clients of yours that have no idea of Rennlist or BaT know who Greg Brown is? Because that's the biggest part of the equation in my mind. If someone with essentially no budget would rather buy a needs-nothing 928 with 160K miles than a low mile question mark, that same person I would think would want be sure of what they are buying and the reputation of the builder would matter at that point. Or do you find that these deep pocket clients essentially are fine with continually throwing money at a car until it finally is the way they want it regardless of how much it costs in the end?
I think everyone who is in the "928 world" knows the players and the reputation of those players. The odds of someone randomly buying a 928 without talking to someone in the business is going to be very low.
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
I think everyone who is in the "928 world" knows the players and the reputation of those players. The odds of someone randomly buying a 928 without talking to someone in the business is going to be very low.
That's what I thought, but when Roger said he sees "... a whole different World of 928 owners who have mostly never heard of Rennlist..." I question how these people are getting in touch with guys like Roger and the like in the first place. I imagine there are guys who have large collections and add a 928 because they just like the looks or some other random reason and don't really care to learn about the nuances or players before buying one. And sure once they buy they are now in the 928 word and start to find out about guys like you and Roger. But my question is, how do you get in front of that type of buyer before he pulls the trigger on a question mark car that winds up costing him 3X more to get it to a point where yours is already at?
(Disclaimer: There is overlap in some of the previous respondents' definitions of who or what comprises Greg Brown's experimental market. So, I apologize in advance for my unauthorized & blatant regurgitations of others' keen insights, which I've appropriated, repackaged & am passing off as my own .... quite ashamed of myself).
my Friday afternoon blatherings:
People making up Greg's target market:
1.) Really want a 928 to drive
2.) Not afraid of mileage....if it's the right car
3.) Done their due diligence & enter into 928 ownership w/eyes wide open regarding repair/maintenance $$$ = pay now -or- pay as you go -or- pay later (I'll save you the trouble: "...or pay for all three.")
4.) Aware of Greg Brown & appreciate his earned reputation as a 928 expert
5.) Don't possess the expertise and/or time to make their car a proper driver
6.) Want a sorted, reliable, drive-able 928...and they want to be able to drive it sooner rather than later...so they "pay now"
7.) Have budgeted the $$$ in their purchase price for "now" repairs/maintenance/refreshening/etc.
I totally agree with most everyone who's responded, that the market Greg's asking about is very, very small, however, so are the number of cars that tick all of the boxes we're talking about. Greg's car isn't really competing against the $7k-$12k, unknown-to-minimal maintenance, high mileage, *automatics (*not that there's anything wrong with that). Neither is Greg's car going to attract the buyers who are planning to do the repairs/maintenance themselves. I'm guessing that those cars and those buyers make up the bulk of the total 928 market, and there are a fair number of both cars & buyers in that do-it-yourself slice of the market. IMO the very specific, niche market that Greg's asking about does exist.
full disclosure: I consider myself to be in the Greg Brown "niche-market". The only difference between the person buying GB's '91 and me, is that I bought my car first, then immediately trailered it to GB's to be worked on. My car, which I bought in May, is @ Precision Motorwerks, where Greg & Kyle performed the PPI: "post" purchase inspection. Greg's driven it well over 200 miles, which he tells me is to "sort it"....but now that I'm thinking about it, he's also told me that he "really likes driving it."
I digress, Greg Brown can drive my car as much as he likes, b/c I know every time he does, he drives it as though it ishiscar. As such, both his mechanical knowledge & pride of ownership kick in, and IMO compel Greg to make his [my] car the best it can be.
Which, to me, is what makes a "Greg Brown 928" a "Greg Brown 928".
-KG.
People who believe that Greg Brown's approach has considerable value, regardless of miles, "ARE" the market. Count me "in".......soooooo, there's 1. Bueller?
People who believe that Greg Brown's approach has considerable value, regardless of miles, "ARE" the market. Count me "in".......soooooo, there's 1. Bueller?
So, you paid ~$40,000 and mileage is 160k?
No wait, you bought a LESS THAN Greg Brown car - right?
For how much, and mileage? And since you are already an owner, then no - there isn't still a Bueller out there. Unless you are buyer again?
Doc, you are way smarter than me. Because you're really smart, you know the actual numerical definition of "high miles" on a 928, which I'm envious of, because I don't. I'm literally quite challenged, so if I were ever asked to define the actual numerical value of "high miles" on a 928, it'd be as if someone handed me a pencil & a map of the US and asked me to draw the boundaries of the "midwest"....I'd royally "f" it up, have to erase, & ultimately get it wrong. But YOU?? I'm sensing you, because of your obviously high intellect, would nail-it...the very first time. You are so right, my car didn't have 160k miles, and therefore it could be neither a high mileage car nor a "Greg Brown car", which of course means there is no market. "Thank you Doc", you nailed it: my car was "a LESS THAN Greg Brown car", which means there is no market for Greg's '91 S4. I totally get it now. Jesus you're impressive Doc.
You see, my plan was to find & buy the right car, regardless of miles, and have it mechanically inspected & brought up to Greg Brown's standards, specificallyby Greg Brown, because I wanted "a Greg Brown car" within my $35,000 to $40,000 total budget. When I was actively searching for the right 928 to become "a Greg Brown car", regardless of miles & was in my budget, I truly thought that I was in "the market" for a car that met my criteria. But now, thanks to you Doc, I realize that I was never in that market: not only because my car didn't have exactly 160k miles on it, or because it hadn't already been brought up to Greg Brown's standards (a "LESS THAN" car), or because it wasn't white (I'm assuming that one Doc), but most importantly because you say that that specific market doesn't exist. Hey Greg, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, Doc says unless I buy your car, then there is no market for it. Doc's super smart, he's already demonstrated he's got a head for numbers, and he can draw the mid-west on a map!. Thanks for shining your omnipotent light on Greg's (and my) folly Doc: Market? There's no stinkin' market!
btw Doc: you've got way too much weight on your inside ski....and you're sitting a little too far back, but you think you look good.....and I know that's important to you
btw Doc: you've got way too much weight on your inside ski....and you're sitting a little too far back, but you think you look good.....and I know that's important to you
I can see you are a bunny slope, groomed run skier giving advice. You see, in powder, distribute weight almost evenly on both skis, and keep those tips up by staying upright in stance, and weight in the center of the ski. This is end of the turn, if the shot was at the crest, the ski would be more level of course. But - good advice for those on the green groomers!
Oh and, prove your mettle. Write the check for the white car.
Doc, you are way smarter than me. Because you're really smart, you know the actual numerical definition of "high miles" on a 928, which I'm envious of, because I don't. I'm literally quite challenged, so if I were ever asked to define the actual numerical value of "high miles" on a 928, it'd be as if someone handed me a pencil & a map of the US and asked me to draw the boundaries of the "midwest"....I'd royally "f" it up, have to erase, & ultimately get it wrong. But YOU?? I'm sensing you, because of your obviously high intellect, would nail-it...the very first time. You are so right, my car didn't have 160k miles, and therefore it could be neither a high mileage car nor a "Greg Brown car", which of course means there is no market. "Thank you Doc", you nailed it: my car was "a LESS THAN Greg Brown car", which means there is no market for Greg's '91 S4. I totally get it now. Jesus you're impressive Doc.
You see, my plan was to find & buy the right car, regardless of miles, and have it mechanically inspected & brought up to Greg Brown's standards, specificallyby Greg Brown, because I wanted "a Greg Brown car" within my $35,000 to $40,000 total budget. When I was actively searching for the right 928 to become "a Greg Brown car", regardless of miles & was in my budget, I truly thought that I was in "the market" for a car that met my criteria. But now, thanks to you Doc, I realize that I was never in that market: not only because my car didn't have exactly 160k miles on it, or because it hadn't already been brought up to Greg Brown's standards (a "LESS THAN" car), or because it wasn't white (I'm assuming that one Doc), but most importantly because you say that that specific market doesn't exist. Hey Greg, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, Doc says unless I buy your car, then there is no market for it. Doc's super smart, he's already demonstrated he's got a head for numbers, and he can draw the mid-west on a map!. Thanks for shining your omnipotent light on Greg's (and my) folly Doc: Market? There's no stinkin' market!
btw Doc: you've got way too much weight on your inside ski....and you're sitting a little too far back, but you think you look good.....and I know that's important to you
You've got to understand....Doc is the very bottom of the bottom feeders. Any 928 that costs more than 3,000 dollars is junk to him, because he won't buy it. Mechanically restored, to him, means three of the tires hold air and only one has a slow leak.
Your '87 is extremely nice....and you can drive it anywhere, anytime, without opening the hood before, during, or after the trip.
That's my definition of mechanically restored!
And, trust me, 928s that can do that are few and far between. I know how many I've done.
You've got to understand....Doc is the very bottom of the bottom feeders. Any 928 that costs more than 3,000 dollars is junk to him, because he won't buy it. Mechanically restored, to him, means three of the tires hold air and only one has a slow leak.
This color combo never represents well in pictures....its something you must see and DRIVE to understand its true value.... As a reformed Concours junky, with a car that never placed worse than 2nd in any PCA concours I entered (the regional concour director had a really nice 968 in my class)....I'm sure with a little touch ups, this car could be a winner....& at its mileage you won't feel guilty about driving it.....
I do think the 928 market is rising, and the 91's are very rare...... My guess is it will sell at Sharktoberfest.....but I'm keeping my guess at price confidential!
09-21-2018, 04:38 PM
George Layton March 2014
