the flyin' scotsman

just reread the thread (F1 race was not very exciting) and wanted to note something others may have missed:

"I already need to clone myself....and that person is Kyle, my son. Berkeley economic/business graduate...taking over the shop. Yup, that's right...GB cars and GB engines have a limited time left to be built."

a fully sorted 928 by GB is coming to an end; whats that worth!!!

Rob Edwards

Restoration is such a strong word... When it showed up here, Mark's Cobalt GT was like Minerva in a lot of ways- good bones with lots of cosmetic issues, but I wouldn't consider the work on the Cobalt car to be a restoration, just a reasonably thorough refresh. (Minerva turned into a what I'd call a restoration). Did the mileage on the Cobalt GT hold down the sales price? Sure, for an utterly unique US Market GT, $35K was a steal, IMO, and I think the mileage definitely held it back. Does that result constrain the price that Greg would get for this '91 S4? That's a much more nuanced question. The short answer is that high mileage is a turnoff to collectors, so that cuts out a fraction of the market. So that leaves anyone else who is looking for a car that's not going to bite them, and who doesn't have the time or inclination to be their own mechanic and wants the greatest chance at having a true turn-key car. Which is a _lot_ of car guys. And who better than Greg to provide a turn-key car? That's the value proposition in this car.

So back to value and mileage- To anyone familiar with the way BAT works and who queries the auction database for comps, they would say yes, 160K miles constrains this car's value. But Greg's never sold a car on BAT, and as we all know, one's results on BAT vary widely. That's part of the 'fun' of the place, albeit stressful for the seller during that week. So unless he tries selling this car on BAT, we're speculating. It'll be an interesting week of comments on that auction

Wisconsin Joe

I believe that GTS has been for sale for a while. And I wouldn't be surprised to see it stay that way. Even considering that it's Canadian dollars, that's a price well above what any has sold for before (IIRC).

And it's main appeal is the mileage. It's the one factor that can not be 'fixed'.

Look at some of the serious 'collector' cars. Most just sit, being rubbed with a diaper.
There was a big 'kerfuffle' a while back, when it was revealed that some Ferraris could have their mileage reset by the dealer. So those "zero miles" cars really weren't.
What is the practical difference between a car with less than 100 miles on it and one with a couple thousand?
What is the value difference? In the case of the LaFerrari that had the miles zeroed out, maybe as much as a million dollars.

Look at the cars Willhoit sells. He gets top dollar for low mile cars. Many of them have a fair amount of deferred maintenance that would need to be addressed...

If the owners planned to actually drive them.

I understand the mind set, although it is not one I agree with.
I wouldn't own a car I couldn't drive at least once in a while. I routinely take my 928 ~120 miles each way on my weekend trips to the DZ. I took it 4500 miles to California and back.

But mine is TMU, likely somewhere in the 80k - 90k range. Driving it won't affect the value.

Nate & Hoi seem to be really on top of recent sales and selling prices. While the only ones made public are the auctions, I don't think there are too many private sales that are that far off the baseline.

There was a Weissach that popped up recently with an ask of 90k. But only 14k miles. Again, miles trump just about any other factor.

As I said previously, serious 928 folks know that 160k isn't a huge detriment, and that the condition is a far more accurate measure of the car's quality.
Once fully sorted by GB, this would likely be in the top 10 in the country as far as mechanical condition and reliability goes.

But that isn't what's driving the market.
Probably not fair, but reality often isn't.

Red Flash

That car BTW was absolutely beautful, and the low price shocked me. Had somebody offered it to me for USD 40'000 I would have easily bought it. Anyway, in terms of value it was worth more than USD 40'000, and at a time when I was looking for my 2nd GT...


Alas, I am not good enough with computers, auctions sites and my OS is so old that my browser won't let me log on to bringatrailer... At least I can see the cars as they come up. But, really, I am not the auction type anyway.

DonaldBuswell

Interesting. I like the language used herein. I like bold experiments, even for experienced 928 folks. However, I think you Mr. GB should swing for the fence, list it for a ridiculous price, but, I know you won’t do that as your reputation is subject to be tarnished for such gouging.

However, I am a newbie in the 928 community (which means nothing) and I am too kind to laugh at hierarchy of tenured time in ownership or numbers of 928’s owned by the members in this community. I respect action and people who actually DO significant deep-dive work on their 928.

My Guards Red 89 S4 5speed w cashmere interior is such a deep-dive. For anyone unfamiliar I did a complete un-build of my 928 looking at film of them being built. I copied the tools as best I could based on variables such as how tall the engine is, how high my lift can raise the car, me in my roll-around stool, and then the wheel diameter of the yellow chassis dolly, factor all this in and went and executed a Body-off leaving the Engine, TT, Transaxle, rear suspension as one unit on my (even yellow) powertrain dolly.

The ease of pulling the front of the motor apart and seeing straight-on the TB/WP etc can’t be described. Seeing the systems of this car all apart, in their individual form and shape is really beautiful! The lower front control arms are a thing of beauty! Especially when they are freshly media blasted, then epoxy primed, then painted them in a dull aluminum color emulating the natural look of these fine castings. Sure, I’ve heard the comments of a negative vein that they were not ever painted…I am doing this for me to fully realize the scope and engineering this car was blessed with.

What is my objective? I think the same as Greg’s, or similar, just because I can. So, when I am done I will have a freshly well built 928S4 with Sean in DFW sorting the electrical issues/computers/fuel injection as I will not fool with that. But I will have every system serviced fully with new parts and materials. Already my TT has new bearings in it, I media blasted it earlier and it, along with a fully serviced Transaxle sits in my aforementioned yellow dolly waiting on time to allow me to finish the build of another powertrain dolly for a 928 shop in Georgia – but one that is adjustable in length to accommodate OB and later body lengths. Yes, it will also be yellow! I will validate this particular dolly on my OB car I recently acquired, a 1981 5spd Competition Package car before I deliver it to Atlanta – and return with a 89 S4 motor in good order and condition – barter sometimes is wonderful.

Yes, my 89 I will list on BaT when completed with copious amounts of photos supporting such extensive work, with a ridiculous price of say $80,000.00 – just to see what the market holds. If I get that, then you all can thank this newbie for such net-gain in our collective values of cars, which I hope you hold onto your car GB and get insane money for it!

dr bob

Donald,

The BaT reserve is something you won't be able to get to a "ridiculous price of say $80,000.00", unfortunately. They are interested in actually selling the car and getting paid when it does, so the reserve numbers they will allow are based on prior sales history with similar cars. If you need a high reserve, offer it on eBay.

GT6ixer

^ This. eBay is the only place you will be able to set that kind of auction price. Auction houses are in the business of selling cars, not letting people test the waters with reserves they feel out pace the current market. That being said, it doesn't hurt to talk to the BaT folks when it's ready to see what their interpretation of you car's worth is in the current market. You can always tell them thanks but no thanks.

Alan

I'd have been interested - and I don't think I'm alone. I paid over $50K almost 20 years ago for my GTS and would have paid well more for a better sorted car. I didn't care too much for mileage - was more interested in condition, verified maintenance history and PPI results (condition was just OK+, maintenance history was AWOL and PPI had some $$ issues). But it was a manual GTS with 32K miles in a good color - and by then I'd already been looking for 3 years... Not so many good options out there let alone great ones.

I spent almost half the purchase price again in the first 3 years. I do spend a lot of time doing things to the car (heavily upgraded), but I still pay my wrench to do ~all the big things - I simply don't have the time - it would just take me too long - so it also wouldn't be fun..

I'd rather pay the money and be able to drive it. I may not be typical but I think I'm hardly alone. When I do retire (soon) I'll build a decent shop and be able to eventually save myself some good money - and I'll probably enjoy doing that too. But until then I'm very time poor and (relatively) cash rich. Just the kind of guy Greg needs. If you follow 928's you know miles mean very little for a driver - if the upkeep, interior and exterior are good its virtually irrelevant. It may still not make an excellent $ investment but as an investment for enjoyment it's hard to beat. I don't intend to ever sell mine... so purchase $ are just a trade-off in the eventual total cost of ownership.

I'd hate to add up all the purchase price, shipping, maintenance, consumables, fuel, replacements, upgrades and insurance over ~20 years - so I just don't. I see my wife trying to do it in her head but she gets to "money-pit!" and stops. She gave up trying to get me to buy a "newer" car when she finally realized this one isn't going anywhere - so a new car would actually just be another car.

I think Greg has a decent chance - and I hope it works out. There is a big difference between looks OK'ish and IS really good. Some people do care and it only takes one!

Alan

sendarius

As a complete non sequitur, but kind of related to the desirability of a "like new" 928:

I had my '88S4 parked on my uncle's front lawn for a wash and polish today - believe me when I say it's a twenty foot car.
A local kid wanders by on the way to who knows where, and his first words were "Wow! Nice new car!"

There is something timeless about the 928, something ageless that says the designers just got it right, and I would definitely be in the market for one that GB had worked his magic on and made like new.

docmirror

Who else besides me can spot the flaw in the ointment here? Anyone else know where this is going? Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.

docmirror

Lot of good opinions here with thoughtful background. We're talking about a 'market' here. We're not talking about cherishing, and loving, and polishing the center caps, etc. We're talking a MARKET. The great thing about markets - in the US, they are almost completely efficient(unconstrained by external forces, like a govt). The used car market is one of the most brutally efficient markets in the world. And lets face it - as nice as a GB928S4(I should trademark that), it is still a 1991 car, with 160k miles. No amount of desires, and hopes, and dreams, and glossy pictures is going to change that. It's still a USED CAR.

The only thing not discussed here is the 'what could I get for $40k' in the similar market. So - we'll postulate a mid-50s guy, successful enough to go shop for a $40-50k supercar from the 80s vintage. He's looking around, all the different venues and deciding what he wants. Hey - a nice white 928 on BaT, I remember those from Risky Biz. Then does a little more shopping while sipping his half-caf, mocha grande at Starbucks:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...delCode1=EVORA

Oh my!

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...elCode1=ESPRIT

And some left over for obvious catch-up maint too!

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...elCode1=ESPRIT

Oh, white, but again will need some love in the eng bay.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...elCode1=456MGT

Huh? I can even get a prancing horse for similar dollar? Whew, didn't see that coming. But, alas - it's not red so....

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...modelCode1=348

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...modelCode1=348

I know, I know. 'Yahbut - those aren't Porsche GB928S4s!

Man does not live - by bread alone. Best of luck with the sale. I hope you get every dime the car warrants. I've been looking at replacing my 996 which sold a few weeks ago. While a fully sorted GB928S4 would be nice, quite frankly, I'm looking at the Ferrari 348 targa. No disrespect intended.

Catorce

I agree, Greg is smoking the strong stuff on that price. As a comparison, I paid 27K for my then 53K mile 5 speed Venetian Blue '88S4. That was like 8-9 months ago and many thought it was a high price.

GregBBRD

Yup, this is the short sighted illusion I see very often.

I can't tell you how much money we spend on 30 year old 928's, with low mileage. It's not the mileage that makes this car worn, it's the age and the neglect from sitting. All the rubber pieces and injection pieces will be deteriorated. Fuel lines, power steering hoses, water hoses, the list goes on and on. The mileage means that your car probably sat around.....for unknown unknown periods of time....with coolant that absolutely needed to be changed every two years (this is the biggest issue with old water cooled aluminum engines).....and probably had periods of time where that coolant sat in it for 10 year stretches. I pull the heads off of these low mileage cars and end up not being able to use either the heads, or the block....completely acid eaten aluminum cylinders and heads are common.

High mileage cars need the same pieces, but they got driven enough that the coolant got changed more often. This turns out to be the most important factor, since the cars themselves don't wear out (the chassis do not deteriorate, unless they are Eastern cars), just the wear items deteriorate.

So, what is better?

Thirty year old deteriorated wear items or all the wear items replaced and ready to go another 30 years?

khalloudy

Catorce

You would be 100% right if we were talking about airplanes. A 30 year old business jet would have essentially new systems because of FAA mandated overhauls based upon both hours of use and calendar time. Thus, I could take a 30 year old Falcon 50 for example, and it would compare favorably to a new plane because everything on the airframe would be new, rebuilt, or overhauled, and thus the "mileage" does not really matter.

However, the PERCEPTION with cars is that the lower the mileage, the better, and thus entire generations of people are trained to believe low miles = a more valuable car. So I could take my 88S4 with 53K miles on it and outsell your 160k mile car every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Whats funny is that I actually agree with you for once that your car is probably better (I have gone through my motor and rehabbed most of it, but that is a different topic). Still, perception is perception.