Archaelogical dig finds knock sensor in worst shape of all time
08-28-2018, 01:26 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Fred, I am not flying blind. i certainly do not have the resolution of the data available, as the ST2 would, but make no mistake,i have data. you can fly a plane using stars, landmarks and a compass and still get to your destination vs using a GPS..........
i have dyoed the car many many times over the years. air fuel ratios are in the 11 to 12 range on a stock ECU. sure, it is not fuel efficient but the loss of power as you go rich is minimum and assures safe operation.
Mark anderson had greg brown and crew do a shark tuner for a day, and they ended up VERY close in power compared to where they started with the technique ive used. timing? well, that is another area with suspect gains vs risk. you start narrowing this down,and you might move out of a safe range that im in now. again all the kings horses and men didnt find that much HP in the ST2 tune.
Then, when i look at plugs , brand new plugs after two weekends of racing, no street driving, and see that all plugs look good and identical, that is a very telling sign, would you not agree? I have a very unique condition to be able to do this.
as far as tune. i have a stock EZK bough form 928 interternational with its associated harness. the tune is stock S4. but there is factor custom chip in the LHbox that we dont know what it contains.
I understand the tuning cells, but really only care about WOT in a very narrow range. and by the way, it runs smooth as silk on the street too, getting decent gas mileage going to the track 18mpg or so.
Im clearly able to see what the timing is, and yet ive only done the checking of ignition timing at light load levels. (keep in mind, the flappy for example is load activated and is able to be triggered by blipping the throttle to high levels, which simulates a higher load) but its hard to do. i can now actually simulate load by getting the car on jack stands and use the brakes to allow for WOT operation in 4th gear at 4000rpm very easily. ill do this check today and see if the knock sensors are actually being read by the system as being connected. i would assume that if they are not, there should be some timing pulled out of the system.
now, Jeff has made it clear that the idle maps are different than the running maps and gave me a clue as to it being related to the idle switch . i dont know if that is the trigger to different maps for timing or not, of if then the sytem is using or looking at the knocks sensor, hall and temp sensors to determine if timing is to be remomoved... DO YOU KNOW?
sure, i would love to put this thing on the ST2 to see what is going on again . i assume not much has changed since bill ball checked it many years ago as the dyno runs are the same and the car feels near the same. however, i do want to make sure and should there be a chance to fix something that is not connected or broken, i want to do it now to take advantage of any hidden HP. for example, if that hall sensor is bad and its been taking out 6degree, maybe that would be hurting hp and has been since day 1. i dont know
as far as timing, sure the 2 valve and 4 valve are different, but how much. im measuring near 39 degrees at 4000rpm right now , with no load. (idle switch obviously not connected but then it wouldnt be in any case, so im wondering about jeffs point about "running maps) so, if this is a running map, i have a hard time believing that the timing would be 44 deegrees with..... also, even if it was, isnt it a general rule that many cars , like ours, pull back timing at the higher RPM for better power? if i looked at the sharktunemaps, i bet that is one of the thiings that it does. (but that is a guess). so, if i had the problem, wouldnt that might give hp or maybe not lose that much, as to be a resason, i havent suffered that much for this failure, if there is one .
currently, it seems llike the knock sensors are being ingored, and i want to make sure , and if so, find out why. i might be losing hp or i might not. its why i asked the question to anyone, if they have dynoed the car to see what a loss of 6degrees looks like on the dyno. sure, we would expect losses in the peak torque range,but maybe not much in the way of HP.
as far as stock maps, on the 2 vavle and 4valve, both came to me with the maps being in the 13.4 range. i fattened them up for racing and gained a little hp getting in the 12.5 range which seems to be optimal. going richer, doesnt lose that much, but too rich and you start building up carbon, and wasting gas (**** of your favoriate brand)
i have dyoed the car many many times over the years. air fuel ratios are in the 11 to 12 range on a stock ECU. sure, it is not fuel efficient but the loss of power as you go rich is minimum and assures safe operation.
Mark anderson had greg brown and crew do a shark tuner for a day, and they ended up VERY close in power compared to where they started with the technique ive used. timing? well, that is another area with suspect gains vs risk. you start narrowing this down,and you might move out of a safe range that im in now. again all the kings horses and men didnt find that much HP in the ST2 tune.
Then, when i look at plugs , brand new plugs after two weekends of racing, no street driving, and see that all plugs look good and identical, that is a very telling sign, would you not agree? I have a very unique condition to be able to do this.
as far as tune. i have a stock EZK bough form 928 interternational with its associated harness. the tune is stock S4. but there is factor custom chip in the LHbox that we dont know what it contains.
I understand the tuning cells, but really only care about WOT in a very narrow range. and by the way, it runs smooth as silk on the street too, getting decent gas mileage going to the track 18mpg or so.
Im clearly able to see what the timing is, and yet ive only done the checking of ignition timing at light load levels. (keep in mind, the flappy for example is load activated and is able to be triggered by blipping the throttle to high levels, which simulates a higher load) but its hard to do. i can now actually simulate load by getting the car on jack stands and use the brakes to allow for WOT operation in 4th gear at 4000rpm very easily. ill do this check today and see if the knock sensors are actually being read by the system as being connected. i would assume that if they are not, there should be some timing pulled out of the system.
now, Jeff has made it clear that the idle maps are different than the running maps and gave me a clue as to it being related to the idle switch . i dont know if that is the trigger to different maps for timing or not, of if then the sytem is using or looking at the knocks sensor, hall and temp sensors to determine if timing is to be remomoved... DO YOU KNOW?
sure, i would love to put this thing on the ST2 to see what is going on again . i assume not much has changed since bill ball checked it many years ago as the dyno runs are the same and the car feels near the same. however, i do want to make sure and should there be a chance to fix something that is not connected or broken, i want to do it now to take advantage of any hidden HP. for example, if that hall sensor is bad and its been taking out 6degree, maybe that would be hurting hp and has been since day 1. i dont know
as far as timing, sure the 2 valve and 4 valve are different, but how much. im measuring near 39 degrees at 4000rpm right now , with no load. (idle switch obviously not connected but then it wouldnt be in any case, so im wondering about jeffs point about "running maps) so, if this is a running map, i have a hard time believing that the timing would be 44 deegrees with..... also, even if it was, isnt it a general rule that many cars , like ours, pull back timing at the higher RPM for better power? if i looked at the sharktunemaps, i bet that is one of the thiings that it does. (but that is a guess). so, if i had the problem, wouldnt that might give hp or maybe not lose that much, as to be a resason, i havent suffered that much for this failure, if there is one .
currently, it seems llike the knock sensors are being ingored, and i want to make sure , and if so, find out why. i might be losing hp or i might not. its why i asked the question to anyone, if they have dynoed the car to see what a loss of 6degrees looks like on the dyno. sure, we would expect losses in the peak torque range,but maybe not much in the way of HP.
as far as stock maps, on the 2 vavle and 4valve, both came to me with the maps being in the 13.4 range. i fattened them up for racing and gained a little hp getting in the 12.5 range which seems to be optimal. going richer, doesnt lose that much, but too rich and you start building up carbon, and wasting gas (**** of your favoriate brand)
Mark,
Without the likes of ST2 you are "radar blind" as to what is going on inside your motor engine management wise. I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to convince you about this but I do understand the concept that your "senses" are telling you the motor is running just fine and if that works for you all well and good.
As I am aware the Hall trigger enables the system to know which cylinder is knocking when a knock event occurs. If the system logic detects a fault in either a knock sensor or the Hall trigger it pulls timing 6 degrees across the board as a safety measure assuming that the fuel being fired is going to be no less than a certain octane no matter what type of witch **** it is.
As to the idle condition I have no idea whether any timing correction is applied to such - the likes of John or Jim will likely know that. I believe you are aware of the mapping system and how it works but for those that do not, the ignition system applies a certain amount of pre-defined advance based on a cell bounded by rpms and load [MAF reading]. The point of this map is to try to ensure that maximum cylinder pressure occurs at 14 degrees after top dead centre. Thus the faster the motor is running the more advance is applied and the lighter the load the more advance is applied - presumably because the mixture burns slower at lighter loads. Some operating cells buck the trend because of resonance effects or whatever else practical experience influenced the mapping in the factory. The stock mapping is a one size fits all type of thing and has a degree of conservatism built in for engine longevity reasons. Thus sharktuner permits tapping into that margin which is not an awful lot but is definitely present. I have no clue what mapping you are currently running on but my guess would be you have a custom EEPROM burnt using the original version of sharktuner- that or you simply have a stock map. If you have a custom chip then chances are further tuning will do nothing more for you performance wise but that does mean the likes of ST2 will do nothing for you- far from it. The ability to record data and analyse it is a huge plus in my opinion. Thus trying to assess what is going on when you blip the throttle on no load is just about meaningless unless you know the advance value for the cell the system is operating on when blipping the throttle which clearly you do not.
The other thing you need to remember is that what applied to your 2 valve motor does not apply to a 4 valve motor. The later models will have a more efficient [faster] burn characteristic thus need less advance on full load cells. Thus any notion that on full load and max rpms that you can run levels of advance much more than the stock mapping [27 degrees on a non cat model and 29 degrees with cats?] would be pure folly or so I would think. Similarly a race [faster] exhaust facilitates less advance- an interesting dynamic.
To summarise- you need to know whether your engine management system is working correctly and chances are that can only be reliably ascertained with some kind of system diagnostic capability. The hammer tells you whether it is working but little more than that. ST2 tells you this and so much more. Max power is seemingly delivered at around AFR 13 so running at AFR12 or less is for the most part a waste of fuel and at some point will actually cost you power. Stock mapping seems to give an AFR of about 12.4.
Without the likes of ST2 you are "radar blind" as to what is going on inside your motor engine management wise. I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to convince you about this but I do understand the concept that your "senses" are telling you the motor is running just fine and if that works for you all well and good.
As I am aware the Hall trigger enables the system to know which cylinder is knocking when a knock event occurs. If the system logic detects a fault in either a knock sensor or the Hall trigger it pulls timing 6 degrees across the board as a safety measure assuming that the fuel being fired is going to be no less than a certain octane no matter what type of witch **** it is.
As to the idle condition I have no idea whether any timing correction is applied to such - the likes of John or Jim will likely know that. I believe you are aware of the mapping system and how it works but for those that do not, the ignition system applies a certain amount of pre-defined advance based on a cell bounded by rpms and load [MAF reading]. The point of this map is to try to ensure that maximum cylinder pressure occurs at 14 degrees after top dead centre. Thus the faster the motor is running the more advance is applied and the lighter the load the more advance is applied - presumably because the mixture burns slower at lighter loads. Some operating cells buck the trend because of resonance effects or whatever else practical experience influenced the mapping in the factory. The stock mapping is a one size fits all type of thing and has a degree of conservatism built in for engine longevity reasons. Thus sharktuner permits tapping into that margin which is not an awful lot but is definitely present. I have no clue what mapping you are currently running on but my guess would be you have a custom EEPROM burnt using the original version of sharktuner- that or you simply have a stock map. If you have a custom chip then chances are further tuning will do nothing more for you performance wise but that does mean the likes of ST2 will do nothing for you- far from it. The ability to record data and analyse it is a huge plus in my opinion. Thus trying to assess what is going on when you blip the throttle on no load is just about meaningless unless you know the advance value for the cell the system is operating on when blipping the throttle which clearly you do not.
The other thing you need to remember is that what applied to your 2 valve motor does not apply to a 4 valve motor. The later models will have a more efficient [faster] burn characteristic thus need less advance on full load cells. Thus any notion that on full load and max rpms that you can run levels of advance much more than the stock mapping [27 degrees on a non cat model and 29 degrees with cats?] would be pure folly or so I would think. Similarly a race [faster] exhaust facilitates less advance- an interesting dynamic.
To summarise- you need to know whether your engine management system is working correctly and chances are that can only be reliably ascertained with some kind of system diagnostic capability. The hammer tells you whether it is working but little more than that. ST2 tells you this and so much more. Max power is seemingly delivered at around AFR 13 so running at AFR12 or less is for the most part a waste of fuel and at some point will actually cost you power. Stock mapping seems to give an AFR of about 12.4.
08-28-2018, 02:09 PM
#47
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If you don't know what the Hall sensor does (you asked about it less than 24 hours ago), you're flying blind. Type all the reply you like, but you're wasting your and our time until you can make basic diagnoses.
08-28-2018, 02:19 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
my main mission here was not to verify the knock sensor function, but it became a sub-mission. now, im more than curious. if the system is not respoding to the tests im doing,then is it the test or the system ,or another part, that has an issue. if there is a way to hook up the ST2 and verify this, im all for it. but i should be able to simulate running conditions, unplug stuff and see timing retards, no?? I'm not for wasting anyone's time, including my own... and what im doing is TRYING to verify.. can you offer some suggestions as to how to verify?
08-28-2018, 02:30 PM
#49
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Post #32, 2:50 PM, yesterday. Your quote:
I interpreted your question to mean that you didn't know what the function of the Hall sensor was. So I posted a picture from the factory literature with a summary of the Hall sensor function.
I'm not (really) trying to be a meanie head, but you have come to this forum for 10+ years, asking questions about the state of tune of your racer, then arguing with the answers to your questions. It gets tiresome after a while. And it's 6 degrees of retard, not 3.
by the way, what is the function of the hall sensor?
I'm not (really) trying to be a meanie head, but you have come to this forum for 10+ years, asking questions about the state of tune of your racer, then arguing with the answers to your questions. It gets tiresome after a while. And it's 6 degrees of retard, not 3.
08-28-2018, 02:41 PM
#50
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Bring that fricking car to Sharktoberfest and we'll make it the tech session. We'll get an ST2 connected it and we can at least check the sensor status unequivocally. Deal?
08-28-2018, 03:39 PM
#51
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
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Don't even need the ST2. The sensor faults show up with almost any controller diagnostic tool north of a flashlight.
08-28-2018, 03:44 PM
#52
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ok, Bring that frickin' car and we'll hook up my spanner, or my Theo tool. Operators are standing by.
Bring that frickin' car and we'll hook up my spanner, or my Theo tool. Operators are standing by.
08-28-2018, 04:21 PM
#53
Bring that fricking car to Sharktoberfest and we'll make it the tech session. We'll get an ST2 connected it and we can at least check the sensor status unequivocally. Deal?
Ok, Bring that frickin' car and we'll hook up my spanner, or my Theo tool. Operators are standing by.
Bring that frickin' car and we'll hook up my spanner, or my Theo tool. Operators are standing by.
08-28-2018, 04:48 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Post #32, 2:50 PM, yesterday. Your quote:
I interpreted your question to mean that you didn't know what the function of the Hall sensor was. So I posted a picture from the factory literature with a summary of the Hall sensor function.
I'm not (really) trying to be a meanie head, but you have come to this forum for 10+ years, asking questions about the state of tune of your racer, then arguing with the answers to your questions. It gets tiresome after a while. And it's 6 degrees of retard, not 3.
I interpreted your question to mean that you didn't know what the function of the Hall sensor was. So I posted a picture from the factory literature with a summary of the Hall sensor function.
I'm not (really) trying to be a meanie head, but you have come to this forum for 10+ years, asking questions about the state of tune of your racer, then arguing with the answers to your questions. It gets tiresome after a while. And it's 6 degrees of retard, not 3.
so, it seems like a LOGICAL question. if all this eletronic test equipment is going to register knocks, see timing changes, etc.. all i want to do is simulate it on the car running with a timing light. why does this not sound like a PERFECT way to verify if the devices are working, or if the system is working? i just need to know, is it only changing under load or is it only RPM or is it a little of both. Jeff eluded to it, and then he went away.... he left us with " running maps" and some teasing questions.
08-28-2018, 06:34 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
where do you think the problem is?? where else can i look? is there a tool that can check the hall function?
08-28-2018, 06:49 PM
#58
bosch hammer will tell you if the hall sensor is working
I had a fault code that read short to ground; I found that the wires to the hall sensor were a bit scrambled,
and the connector at the sensor crumbled like a cookie
repaired the wires, and replaced the sensor, and it felt as if I had install a performance chip. amazing.
FWIW: there was no difference at idle, only on acceleration.
I had a fault code that read short to ground; I found that the wires to the hall sensor were a bit scrambled,
and the connector at the sensor crumbled like a cookie
repaired the wires, and replaced the sensor, and it felt as if I had install a performance chip. amazing.
FWIW: there was no difference at idle, only on acceleration.
08-28-2018, 07:43 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
bosch hammer will tell you if the hall sensor is working
I had a fault code that read short to ground; I found that the wires to the hall sensor were a bit scrambled,
and the connector at the sensor crumbled like a cookie
repaired the wires, and replaced the sensor, and it felt as if I had install a performance chip. amazing.
FWIW: there was no difference at idle, only on acceleration.
I had a fault code that read short to ground; I found that the wires to the hall sensor were a bit scrambled,
and the connector at the sensor crumbled like a cookie
repaired the wires, and replaced the sensor, and it felt as if I had install a performance chip. amazing.
FWIW: there was no difference at idle, only on acceleration.
08-28-2018, 07:48 PM
#60
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mark--
You have the needed tools local to you. Jeff has repeatedly offered to connect to the car with the ST; even if just for basic diagnostics it's a worthwhile effort.
Basics: If "fixing" the rear knock sensor didn't noticeably improve acceleration throughout the load range, you have another fault to hunt down. Both the knock sensors and the Hall sensor have shielding on the cabling all the way from the controller to the sensor. You can do basic Ohm meter checks from the controller plugs to see if any are shorted to ground (shield). If you unplug the controllers, you can test for that with a flashlight if you have to. A DMM is handier and safer though. You can provide a little DC excitation to a knock sensor, and connect the signal leads to a spectrum analyzer to see what all the mechanical rattling looks like. Or to a basic O'scope to see amplitude alone. O'scope will display the signals from the Hall sensor that go high-low-high-low as the cam turns. If you can't see these basic signals at the controllers end, you need to hunt down the problems. Sensor(s) or wiring.
-----
Throughout this thread and in many related threads, you bombard your support team with your theory that if the mixture is always OK to a little rich on the WBO2 then the car is perfect. Each time someone on the support team attempts to educate you on even the most basic and maybe mundane issue, you dump a load of perhaps loosely-related internet "facts" on them in an attempt to not fix whatever it is that's actually wrong.
Have you followed ---ANY--- of the guidance shared on cam timing? Have you found the vacuum leak? Have you looked? How well balanced are those exhaust port temps at idle, when you have the slight miss that you can only seem to hear at idle? Got a set of known-consistent injectors installed yet? Any basic performance effort really needs to work from a known-good baseline condition where everything is at least as good as the factory intended.
Thought: Don't show up at Sharktoberfest (or at Jeff's) with a list of neglected stuff to work through before the experts can help you with performance tuning.
I know that Rob logged a LOT of data on his way to getting his GTS stroker to where it is now. Jim & Sue had the benefit of dyno time on the GT engine before it went in the car, chassis dyno time after it was installed, and a bonus trip to Palm Springs and Phoenix for more tuning. Then more on the ride home. This is the guy that built the Sharkplotter add-on, so there's a real possibility that he knows what he's doing. Results still are not instant.
You have the needed tools local to you. Jeff has repeatedly offered to connect to the car with the ST; even if just for basic diagnostics it's a worthwhile effort.
Basics: If "fixing" the rear knock sensor didn't noticeably improve acceleration throughout the load range, you have another fault to hunt down. Both the knock sensors and the Hall sensor have shielding on the cabling all the way from the controller to the sensor. You can do basic Ohm meter checks from the controller plugs to see if any are shorted to ground (shield). If you unplug the controllers, you can test for that with a flashlight if you have to. A DMM is handier and safer though. You can provide a little DC excitation to a knock sensor, and connect the signal leads to a spectrum analyzer to see what all the mechanical rattling looks like. Or to a basic O'scope to see amplitude alone. O'scope will display the signals from the Hall sensor that go high-low-high-low as the cam turns. If you can't see these basic signals at the controllers end, you need to hunt down the problems. Sensor(s) or wiring.
-----
Throughout this thread and in many related threads, you bombard your support team with your theory that if the mixture is always OK to a little rich on the WBO2 then the car is perfect. Each time someone on the support team attempts to educate you on even the most basic and maybe mundane issue, you dump a load of perhaps loosely-related internet "facts" on them in an attempt to not fix whatever it is that's actually wrong.
Have you followed ---ANY--- of the guidance shared on cam timing? Have you found the vacuum leak? Have you looked? How well balanced are those exhaust port temps at idle, when you have the slight miss that you can only seem to hear at idle? Got a set of known-consistent injectors installed yet? Any basic performance effort really needs to work from a known-good baseline condition where everything is at least as good as the factory intended.
Thought: Don't show up at Sharktoberfest (or at Jeff's) with a list of neglected stuff to work through before the experts can help you with performance tuning.
I know that Rob logged a LOT of data on his way to getting his GTS stroker to where it is now. Jim & Sue had the benefit of dyno time on the GT engine before it went in the car, chassis dyno time after it was installed, and a bonus trip to Palm Springs and Phoenix for more tuning. Then more on the ride home. This is the guy that built the Sharkplotter add-on, so there's a real possibility that he knows what he's doing. Results still are not instant.
