dr bob

Mark--

My rear knock sensor looked a lot better than yours. Stock engine vs your built engine. Rob's plug-in diagnostic tool showed the sensor was intermittent. So I did as you did and replaced it without pulling the intake. We were headed north for a Sharks in the Park gathering so didn't want to cram a full intake refresh into a remaining day. The change in performance was very apparent. I would expect the return on the sensor investment would be larger on your car. I don't test maximum available power or high RPM's as you do.

For those playing along at home, the knock sensor wiring suffers from exposure to heat in the valley, to oil and crud that often gathers there, and seriously from petro solvents like Brake-Clean often used to flush that oil and crud around.

Jim C shared the pin connections and testing needed to validate or repair the data connections to the two engine controllers. Use That Info. Disconnect the battery and disconnect the two controller connectors and verify the data line integrity between them. Anyone decent with a soldering iron will make short work of adding a couple lengths of twinax from those to whatever connector you want to use to the Sharktuner. I probably need to buy a share of a Sharktuner/Sharkplotter package to get some hands-on time with one. I watched Jim C do a couple great demo's, and was entrusted with holding the laptop while Rob did a series of two- or three-gear street pulls with the stroker motor. That's my experience so far. Meanwhile, Jeff offers you direct hands-on help. Consider that you have the option to borrow and install a later controller pair for the testing and diagnosis steps. Once the new PROM is burned, it can go in your original controller and into the car again.

mark kibort

thanks Bob.. One could only hope to be as lucky as you were that i have been robbed 6 degrees of timing , intermittently! Ill know soon enough, but i will tell you , the pictures dont do that sensor justice. all the rubber insulation was gone along with the plastic and only one strand of old wire was holding the connection. if it was bad, it will be a pleasant surprise. wouldn't it be funny, if it was bad for the last 10 years?

anyway, ill also take your advice after the Runoffs and see if i can get with Jeff and mock up some connectors to make a shark tuner work. would be interesting at the least.

Mk

dr bob

I think a key mention here is that all these "fixes" will only be looked at --after-- the runoffs. We don't want to introduce any more performance-enhancing variables to the mix until Mark's race season has ended. By then all the crud dropped into the heads will be safely swept straight to the pump intake screen and the oil filter, without touching any moving parts along the way. Except maybe the cam, lifters, pistons and bores, and the oil pump. Amsoil, time to do your magic! Or maybe the deal will be a Straight Flush right off the top.

mark kibort

Greg, it doesnt take more than a 50 point IQ to understand that "debris was ONLY from the removing of the cam cover. had it not got caught up by an bolt left near the shock tower, my fight wouldnt have dropped so much dirt. i spent a LOT of time making sure every lifter had been cleaned with oil ladden Q-tips and then flushed with high pressure. anything that slipped through my rags leading to the oil galley would be picked up by the oil filter . my engines when pulled apart have been some of the cleanest seen here. the debris cam from the cam covers . i was there , i did it. its obvious to anyone BUT you . i would worry more about your fact finding mission of YOUR engines that only last 3 hours of race time, not my engines that run for 100s of hours and many many yeas!

mark kibort

Bob, This is partially true. i would never introduce a new tune before such a big race. the minor issue i have is an idle miss that doesnt seem to effect full throttle performance. sure, changing out all the injectors with new or balanced wouldnt hurt and i still might do it just to remove one additional variable. but, i would think there would be way to test and narrow the source of the issue down. plugs all look perfect after 2-3 hours of racing..... so need i be worried that much? the goal is to beat a bunch of cars in class that i have been running with over the years, and im putting on some new fast tires to help the efforts. the "crud" has been cleaned off much of which were caught with the rags blocking the oil return passages. anything small and undetected was flushed down into the oil galley. Now, how is this "debris" able to jump back into the cams and lifters? how can it touch a piston or even a crank as the oil flushes down the oil passages? doesnt the filter protect the engine if anything was pushed down to the pan? the larger pieces just stay in the pan. remember the holbert cams loosing sprocket teeth? every one of them was accounted for in multiple oil changes. (too big for the screen) those lifters look anything but mirror shiny??? they are the originals from 1987. these are the holbert heads, lifters, springs and everything still looks brand new. maybe using amsoil is a good idea! no sludge, stain, or residue from a hard life of racing.

mark kibort

Look, there are NO particles on the lifters that didnt get there by my fight with the cam cover. i wasnt as happy about this either and was a LOT of work to clean all of it off the lifters and moving parts. what metal particles? there was nothing metal on the lifters, but if i think i see what you are talking about , are sand grains on the lifter that look shiny. i assure you there is NO metal.. I pull oil filters apart after every change ,and never seen any particles of any kind in the filter...ever. where do you see "particles being squished between the cam lobe? please point this out. im getting close to pulliing the covers just for you and give some close up pictures of all the lifters and cams with a magnifying glass. how are you seeing what is between the lifters and cams while its running? using those extra IQ points you have in reserve, take as information those lifters are the exhaust that are angled down and the dirt was trapped as it fell, and fell, not wedged, between cam lobe and lifter. this was easy to clean.

mark kibort

is this the picture you are referring to? this is debre from near and around the cam cover and head as i was removing it. it was ugly, and required a TON of cleaning

mark kibort

I dont agree, but i see what you are seeing. it is smooth as silk and all the cam lobs have had this , since i bought them from the previous owner . The cams were looked at 15 years ago before they were installed by Elgin as being fine. the lifters are mirrored in finish, so i have a hard time imagining how there could be any metal particulate in the engine, PLUS, there is NOTHING ever shiny in the oil filter NOR has any oil analysis show even a micro particle of metal in the samples, done 1 to 2 times per year...IF you are correct , how is that possible? You have to realize these are used cams as of 2004 AND they have been used in racing for over 200 hours, and 100s of thousands of street miles.

mark kibort

Here is the intake cam from 10 years ago 2008 verses today, 2018
same "smearing" metal you think you know or see.

mark kibort

Does anyone else see the complete nonsense Greg is talking about here? this is a normal head with a set of cams. very clean, no residue, no particulate (other than what was dropped by ME when removing the dirty cam covers) and the "smears" are not metal being crushed".... if this is your engineering logic, then your entire review of Mark and Joes engine would be suspect. seriously, why are you just stirring up crap? yes, there is a mess made by the cam cover removal. what would be helpful is your way of cleaning it up, without removing he engine and taking it apart. you think metal could have been squished under all the lifters and not leave any mark that you could see or feel? there was NONE. i even showed the pictures of the same cams in the same position 10 years ago!

I think i did a really good job of getting every particle i could see out of the cam lifters and make sure most didn't go down into the sump. some small particles did make it down, i imagine, but i would think it will be no problem for the oil to keep it suspended and put it in the filter for removal later.... the point of removing the cam covers was to see if timing was changed and it wasn't. (thinking that could cause the minor low power miss) and see if there was a broken valve spring. there wasnt. the marks on the cams are types of stains that are perfectly smooth and the lifters are mirror like. Also, the filters of the past along with oil analysis, showed NONE of any particulate , especially metal in the oil . so, why post this? it doesnt help.

mark kibort

Here is Bill and I working on connecting what we could.... im more than open to try and wire up something that is shark tuner capable.

By the way, what would we gain.. right now, im at 11 to 12:1 AFR... bill and i didn't see any knocks with his wide band. do we really need to change timing one way or another to optimize? how do we know what to adjust to? if im not having issues now with knocks or temps, wouldn't any change be a risk and for what gain? you know mark and joe did this same thing and didnt see much in the way of gains. I totally get this for better fuel economey during cruise, and maybe opimizing for power, but i dont see why there is a feeling that the tune i run is that far off. no smoke, plugs look healthy, no knocks.,10 years of racing, decent power for the mods , similar to GB made for same mods....im just trying to understand what the gains might be in any area.

mark kibort

So Jeff, that is the theory. there is documentation, but when you test the theory, i see something other than what you have described. I did some 60-100mph runs, as i have done 1000s of times, and saw something interesting. pulling the knock sensor connector of the rear sensor, i thought i felt it being a little slower, at least from 60-80mph, in the end, the times were near identical 4.6 seconds vs a 4.7 seconds. keep in mind, the holbert car at 335rwhp would consistently make that speed run in 5.7 seconds. in fact, when i was feeling that the car was sounding poor, and the acceleration rate was 6.2 seconds, i went to the dyhno and sure enough , i was down 15 hp due to the cam timing not being optimized.. changing it , brought it back into adjustment ,and all was good. anyway, either the system doesnt recognize the knock sensor, it's not recognizing the knock sensor, or the 6 degree retarding of timing, has more of an effect at RPM levels below 3500rpm,not above .
i was hoping that there would be a difference between the knock sensor not being connected, vs connected, because that would assure me that i was getting the most HP possible.

bottom line, i was hoping someone had done a dyno run to see the difference of knock sensor connected vs not and see the effects of the timing pull back through out the HP RPM curve.

dr bob

Mark --

If either sensor is determined to be less than perfect, the timing is retarded by 6º for all cylinders. If one sensor has already been deemed faulty or erratic, disconnecting the other one will make no difference.

I'm sure you saw Kevin's front sensor connector damage, Look at yours inside the boot. Test with the meter to see what it reads for Ohms. then reconnect and look for the same reading at the EZK connector. Do the same for the rear sensor, and take a hard look at the Hall sensor and wiring behind the right-side cam drive. ANY of those items will cost you the 6º of timing advance.

---

I found that my routing of the KS@ front-of-engine harness was above the Hall sensor wiring and connection, and causing enough magnetic interference to trip up the EZK. Moving the wire bundle completely to the outside of the lift eye solved that.

mark kibort

Can you clarify your first sentence? you know , both sensors are new now. (well the front one is 8 years old but still looks like brand new)

The front sensor is new. again, we picked one out of the two old sensors and put it in the rear because the new one wasn't shipped in time. the front one is new, the rear one is now new.. both have the same ohms, but ill check at the EZK.

the reason i ask about the timing effects on power is that maybe its retarding the timing , but im not feeling it at the higher RPM because it doesnt make as much difference there . Possible? is the timing of the 6 degrees retard effect all RPM levels? that should be any easy test as i could just check ignition timing with and without the sensor, and if i have to do it at HIGH rpm, that would be easy too. or if it is a load based timing retard, i can actually check that too. (eg. 4krpm, half throttle, check timing with knock sensor removed or connected.)

is there anyway of checking the hall sensor , OR if the EZK has been retarding timing. im suspecting things are good, due to the same dyno runs, and hyway 60-100 times ive had for 8 years. but , if the hall sensor is bad and its been retarding all these years, it would be nice to find that extra HP. however, wouldnt Bill have seen that in the tests we did? and power hasnt changed since that test.

mark kibort

When are you going to tell me you have "punked me" just went out and ran the car , warmed it up and did RPM tests, with timing light and digital RPM gauge. idles about 10 degrees advanced. then when its warm, and idle switch off, its more like 12-15 degress at about 1200rpm. with or without knock sensor connected. then when warm, i started to do some higher RPM tests. timing in the 32 -35 range, again, with and without the knock sensor and then with 4000rpm blips, it hits 37 degrees, for both with and without knock sensor. i cant imagine 37 degrees not near optimal for higher RPM as well although i didnt go much higher than 4500rpm and it didnt change both ways.

feels like im on a wild goose chase

maybe Jeff can do a test with the shark tuner and see what we have going on.

thanks,
Mark

EDIT: what ohm values of the knocks sensor are you looking for. both the old ones and the new ones show no resistance between the connections.