When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I'd have to ask were your sleeves flanged? These sleeves are secured by three means, first interference, second there is the glue between the liner and block which was the orange block loctite and thirdly there is the pressure from the head gasket pressing down on the flange as the flange is sitting on top of the alusil liner. Hopefully that is enough along with expert fitting, this shop is not cheap but there work is high quality, there is a reason I pay more and travel 800 KMS to have them do the work.
I'd have to ask were your sleeves flanged? These sleeves are secured by three means, first interference, second there is the glue between the liner and block which was the orange block loctite and thirdly there is the pressure from the head gasket pressing down on the flange as the flange is sitting on top of the alusil liner. Hopefully that is enough along with expert fitting, this shop is not cheap but there work is high quality, there is a reason I pay more and travel 800 KMS to have them do the work.
Sleeves were flanged. .I had the same config except deck plates were welded in with adhesive, and just a heads up (no pun intended) but a metal fire ring gasket will NOT keep a sleeve rotating in any way. They are good for sealing but no structure to prevent rotation. I tried it twice. Once with a factory 968 gasket and once with an o-ringed solid copper gasket. No go on either one. I spent probably 20K for each try. good luck with it and I really mean it. The only way I could see it working was like the Simard sleeves that lock against each other to prevent rotating. just my opinion. useless for the most part around here.
Got these photos from the workshop, I have requested some pictures from underneath however apparently the sleeves fit very nicely. The sleeves were diamond honed and then brushed.
Looking good, I am following this closely to see how it goes. Keep pushing!!
While I am aware of your previous block struggles I am not familiar with the intricate details and if you wish to discuss I am happy to discuss the methods employed here which is as yet untested and unverified as to longevity. I will say as a starting point there is a lot of sleeved aluminum blocks out there and the majority are just flanged liners. There can be all sorts of issues in the details. A close examination of the details is required before throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I too have had my share of failures, going back a bit over ten years I bought deck plates from I suspect the same supplier as yourself and fundamentally I think this approach is flawed. In my case the block distorted, now my welders are very very good, you may know that I also weld but for really difficult work I get the aircraft welders involved. The block was preheated and it distorted, I was warned about this by the welders but the supplier never warned about this. Nor did they provide any technical details as to how to avoid the distortion. That block was lost at that point, it was a piston squirter block also. With your welded block I would have been suspicious that your block was no longer square and true. The area where the sleeves would have been seated and at the top of the block in general would have been annealed
I would also ask do you have any photos to provide regarding these sleeves in particular their thickness and the thickness at the flange. I would question the machinist regarding his work as I would be very suspicious as to the tunnel straightness. If the tunnel is not straight how did they accurately deck the block? They come off the tunnel to do this. Also if the sleeves were not seated on top of the liner, that is, pressed down hard to the top of the liner that will also be grounds for the liner having a lack of retention.
Was there any machine work that you were not happy with visually? If so, there is a great chance for the work you couldn't see to potentially also have a problem. So in this regard I can honestly and succinctly say that the machining done on my block is done to a first class standard. So if it fails I will not be blaming on the machinist.
Please add what you can as it will be valuable to owners going forward as to rule out liners as an option is somewhat limiting.
Originally Posted by 928sg
Sleeves were flanged. .I had the same config except deck plates were welded in with adhesive, and just a heads up (no pun intended) but a metal fire ring gasket will NOT keep a sleeve rotating in any way. They are good for sealing but no structure to prevent rotation. I tried it twice. Once with a factory 968 gasket and once with an o-ringed solid copper gasket. No go on either one. I spent probably 20K for each try. good luck with it and I really mean it. The only way I could see it working was like the Simard sleeves that lock against each other to prevent rotating. just my opinion. useless for the most part around here.
Sleeves were flanged. .I had the same config except deck plates were welded in with adhesive, and just a heads up (no pun intended) but a metal fire ring gasket will NOT keep a sleeve rotating in any way. They are good for sealing but no structure to prevent rotation. I tried it twice. Once with a factory 968 gasket and once with an o-ringed solid copper gasket. No go on either one. I spent probably 20K for each try. good luck with it and I really mean it. The only way I could see it working was like the Simard sleeves that lock against each other to prevent rotating. just my opinion. useless for the most part around here.
How did you realise that the liners were rotating?
Something to kick around if you like, there's a YouTube video by Dr Andy Randolf who is a very clever engineer and he works in Nascar for ECR. So the following two screenshots are from his work.
So my engine will never run at 9,000 rpms, this engine as most of you know is only an offset ground factory crank with roughly the same stroke as a Nascar engine but less bore. For the record it's 4.15" vs 4.18". However friction still plays a large part in losses that can be addressed. This is the reason for a fine bore finish and thin rings. Now Nascar uses 0.6 mm rings vs my proposed 0.8 mm rings with 2 mm oil rings which are also used in the C7 Corvette. So my friction reduction will not be as good as in the Nascar engine. It can be added that if I build another engine which will have a stroker crank, while I won't get to 9,000 odd revs there either, piston speed may well get close to theirs so these techniques and learning pave the way for improvement.
Above you can see the difference in friction from a state of the art road car engine used in the Corvette to a current Nascar engine. As I have said, I'm using some parts from the Corvette and similar to the Corvette's like the rings and main bearings. The rod bearings are smaller with Nascar piston guided rods, less friction with piston guided. Also the dry sump system I'm using should reduce pumping losses to some extent. The one issue I'm grappling with is oil weight. Engines with tight clearances don't like heavy oil, my tappets are DLC coated, (there is quite a story there) the cams are the only area I'm worried about rapid wear if I used a thinner oil. The oil needs to do a lot of cooling.
As for thinner oil and cams, surely you can follow NASCAR's example for viscosity like you have for your other items?
Also, thinner oil will allow more flow which includes flow thru the oil cooler. That cooled oil is now available to wick heat out of the engine in greater quatities. Thinner oil is good as long as it has the required shear and hydro-dynamic-wedge to protect the engine.
How did you realise that the liners were rotating?
I did some clearance mods for rod bolts and the notches moved. I originally tore the engine down due to leak down and compression issues in 3 cylinders. After finding the rotated cylinders and other issues with the sleeves I junked the block and started over with a non sleeved block.
I ordered a grand piano? That’s not what I ordered my darling. It sort of looks like a grand piano from the end of the street. WTF? Oh well I won’t send it back, looks kinda useful. My new friend Mr Sumo! Mr Sumo has a thick neck! Mr Sumo other appendices are rather stout. Compared to a Bridgeport.
11-15-2018, 12:43 AM
