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When talking about " collector cars " it does not matter if it is a good , well designed car at all only that there is the expectation that it will increase in value. Does not even need to be a good example of that model car it need only LOOK GOOD .Considering that at the TV auctions you never get to test drive . After all it is not being purchased to be driven any meaningful amount anyway. Collecting is just a better sounding term, for hoarding. Hoarding is recognized as a form of mental illness
Does anyone other than Musk think Tesla is worth 72 billion dollars ?? Speculation is a fascinating subject. No one needs a Porsche they simply WANT one for what ever reason often they have never actually ever driven one.....so it is not about being a good or great car.
Actually, that IS the point. The market has many, many, many agents for selling. Buyers set prices. People in this little 928 community have been telling themselves that the 928 is going to take off like a rocket! They've been saying it for 12 years, and so far all we've seen is gradual, predictable market climb. There was a nice blip last year, but other than that, it's flat. What YOU want the owner of a 928 to do isn't important. What the buyer wants is what's important. I can go to any of those sellers today and bargain $1000 off asking price. I know, because I've done it many, many times. Wishful thinking is fine, and good, but it is not an investment strategy.
When I first bought my Lotus Cortina for $5000 it was ignored by the vintage group. Then a few started selling in Europe for 5x more. As soon as the percived value went up we started to get invited to events. Don't give our 928's away. It thrills me to see people asking for big bucks for our cars. As we say " You didn't pay to much, you just bought it too soon"
It will be interesting to see what the GTS sells for at Mecum in a few weeks time vs the GTS at RM
But they GOT more, because there was a market to reward it.
The 928 market is not there, at this time. Much less a "get anything you can as an investment"/
I'm definitely not claiming it's the 928's time. I'm merely stating that we, as owners, have some control of the market. Especially if we can eliminate those who give their cars away.
Doc, being from TX, you should know who Lama Hunt is, he tried to corner silver and although he didn't succeed, he made a lot of money, chiefly b/c he was in control for some period. I have to agree with Bauer. There are two sides to the equation in the market and if sellers are disciplined they can exert more control than buyers; depends a lot on money supply, if money is tight, then not so much, then luxury items will suffer. I also think the dynamic of "not any more being made" theorem works here. If there are more buyers being minted than 928s, we win. OTH if someone needs cash and has a GT3 sitting around, he/she may be forced to sell.
The 928 market as a whole may be flat (debatable), but you have to throw in all the CL trash to get there. There is no doubt that the well maintained ready-to-drive examples have commanded more money year over year for at least the past 3 years. In my opinion as speculators and collectors start to become more educated on the 928 (as they already are thanks to sites like RL, BaT, Pelican, etc), they start to value (i.e. WANT as James put it) the more rare and better conditioned examples. Since those cars are currently a finite resource, when they do come up for sale they are seeing the top end of prices for their year/model. If those cars someday do "skyrocket" in price only then will the CL trash stuff start to sell and $3K, 5K, 6K and up. I think most of us could agree that if you bought one of those CL cars today and spent around $50K you could have at least a condition 2 car. That car (if not a GT or GTS) would probably then sell in the $25K to $35K range at auction. The math there doesn't work for the speculators. However if in a few years the high end quality cars routinely sell for $50K+ (which I am predicting they will by 2020), then the math starts to work. Buy a cheap one, apply $50K, enjoy it sparingly for 2-3 years and sell it on for $60K-$70K. Time will tell and the collector car market isn't immune from the larger global economy, so no one really knows.
My personal philosophy is buy the stuff that you like and don't get caught up if it will be worth more or less when it comes time to move on from it. That will just frustrate you and take the joy out of the ownership experience. And yes I practice what I preach. I now own a 2004 Volkswagen Phaeton W12. And for those of you that know about the Phaeton you know that it is probably to worst car you can ever buy if you have an aversion to spending money on keeping a car on the road. It's brutal. But hey, it is a cool car!
What I don't understand about current owners mentally is their lack of understanding of how your collective power can change the market value for these cars. Just don't give them away! It's that simple!
If everyone, collectively, decided to ask 10% more than what they previously considered, the market would change by 10%.
Originally Posted by BauerR
I watched this with the air-cooled market and now with the 996 turbo market. Once owners stop giving their cars away, things changed.
I wholeheartedly disagree about who sets the market. The demand will always be there, especially once value is established and value can only be established by the guy with the cheapest car.
Originally Posted by BauerR
I'm definitely not claiming it's the 928's time. I'm merely stating that we, as owners, have some control of the market. Especially if we can eliminate those who give their cars away.
Originally Posted by BauerR
So it's your opinion that air-cooled buyers WANTED to pay more. Not the sellers asked more?
Buyers want to pay 50K for a base 964?
We can agree to disagree.
Seriously?
As was noted: Ask any price you want. Finding someone to pay it may well be an entirely different proposition. My car is worth maybe $10k -$12k (85 Euro 5 speed, mechanically sound, decent interior, needs paint and body work). I wouldn't sell it for less than $20k. I don't expect to see any buyers at that price point. Which is kinda the point.
What is an auction?
Isn't it where buyers gather and who ever is willing to pay the most gets the item?
Reserve prices can be set, and if they aren't met the item isn't sold. But in that case, the buyer decided that a 'fair' price was below that reserve and the sale didn't happen.
Please explain the process where we get all 928 owners to agree to set prices higher. The idea of 'eliminating those who give their cars away' sounds just a bit ominous.
What about Mark Anderson? Should he start paying more for the parts cars he buys? Would that help? I hope not, because I don't want to pay more if I don't have to.
The 911 market went through the roof because buyers were willing to pay more. Buyers saw the market rising, and wanted to get in before it got too high. Most thought the cars would continue to appreciate in price, and that their 'investment' would pay off.
They aren't the car the 928 is. So what? 3/4 of the world has no clue that the 928 is a Porsche unless they read the name on the back.
Have you ever driven a 60s or 70s Vette? Have you ever seen an original paint job on one? Yet there are some with the 'right' options that are 7 figure cars. Same with the Big Block Mopars. Handling is garbage. Brakes are worse. Prices are incredible.
Originally Posted by Daniel5691
The actual beauty of the 928 is precisely that its value is not measured in dollars. Long live the crappy market.
This is my reality. If the price of a 928 was that of a 911, I'd never be able to afford one.
As it is, I own an amazing car. A legit 'supercar'. The pinnacle of engineering for it's time.
And all three of my Porsches (combined) cost less to acquire than my 97 ZR2 Blazer when I bought it new (really).
You guys are hilarious. You sound EXACTLY like the air-cooled guys, back when you could buy a "low-mile" 964 Turbo for 35k. I actually skipped on the opportunity to buy a 964 3.6 turbo for 65k because I thought that was insane money to pay for a, relatively speaking, bad car and I bought a 996 Turbo instead. Those guys who did, who a bunch are my friends, are still scratching their head how the car they bought 7 years ago for 35k is now worth 135k. Still leaking oil, like they all do. The 964 was literally the redheaded step child in the 911 world. The 930 wasn't far behind.
I don't know what dictates the car market, but I can tell you if you have a community of owners that believe their car isn't worth ****, it won't help value at all.
"77.29% undervalued. Anything with a Porsche badge is worth more than it was three or four years ago, in some cases quite a lot more. The 928 was one of the cheaper to buy (but never cheap to maintain) Porsches out there for many years, but it was spurred on by growth in 911 values, and prices for good 928s shot up notably during 2016 and ’17. More than three-quarters of Hagerty clients in Canada have their 928s undervalued, and while many have led less-than-pampered lives, it’s hard to believe that there can be that many in below #3 condition. American owners seem to be a little more on top of things, but not by much. More than 67 percent of their 928s are undervalued."
08-09-2018, 01:25 PM
