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Originally Posted by Strosek Ultra If my memory serves me well, the oil used in the Alpina causing the severe sludge was the last oil from a 60 liter container. Remember it looked a little bit out of the ordinary having some kind of lumps?
Post from Ake above in the original thread today^^^ If the product expired (product in question has a 24 month shelf life) due to being in a 60L container for however long and the installer knowingly saw it may have been contaminated but used it anyway, then blames us and posts pictures of the internet. It is our responsibility to point out all possible scenarios based on experience and defend our image/reputation. I thank you though for being open minded about the situation and confirming some of our beliefs of what happened (the CCV being possibly clogged- Ake says it wasn't btw) -Nick
And apologies to GregBBRD- didn't mean to hijack your thread.
You’re still doing what vendor marketing people tend to do on the internet, that is, assuming a user error and declaring victory. Have you asked him when he purchased the product? Regardless of the answer, I’d ask that first before drawing (favorable to me) conclusions.
I’m not even talking about what is fair and justified, I’m just wondering if this “attack first and blame the customer” approach is the present value maximizing approach?
^This. Even if the customer did something blatantly incorrect and blames the manufacturer, as the manufacturer, no matter how tempting it is to say "I told you so", you just gotta take the high road. Never try to "defend" you reputation on the internet. It will never work. It's a really bad look. Just present the facts as you know them and leave the blaming to the rest of us. Having said that and reading the other thread, Nick from Motul has presented good/interesting technical information on oil in general IMO.
You’re still doing what vendor marketing people tend to do on the internet, that is, assuming a user error and declaring victory. Have you asked him when he purchased the product? Regardless of the answer, I’d ask that first before drawing (favorable to me) conclusions.
I’m not even talking about what is fair and justified, I’m just wondering if this “attack first and blame the customer” approach is the present value maximizing approach?
Originally Posted by GT6ixer
^This. Even if the customer did something blatantly incorrect and blames the manufacturer, as the manufacturer, no matter how tempting it is to say "I told you so", you just gotta take the high road. Never try to "defend" you reputation on the internet. It will never work. It's a really bad look. Just present the facts as you know them and leave the blaming to the rest of us. Having said that and reading the other thread, Nick from Motul has presented good/interesting technical information on oil in general IMO.
Touche', gentlemen- not my intention to be overly defensive and I apologize if it came off that way. We're new at this so still figuring out the correct approach, this is good advice. Thank you -Nick
I'm not sure how my picture of sludge turned into a negative discussion about Motul....
When I was very active prepping 911's for track use, I had several clients that used Motul, with great success...and I've always associated Motul with being a race oil.
Has this changed and is the discussion about Motul about some sort of "street" oil they now make which makes sludge? Or is this discussion about race oil mistakenly used for street use?
Or is this discussion about race oil mistakenly used for street use?
'
But Greg, you gotta know that Race Oil makes a Street Car sooooooo much more powerful!
Happy Saturday,
Dave
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Since a certain oil guru hasn't made a comment, it's probably from extended use of AMSOIL!
This should get the pot bubbling!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Not very sporting to tease a wild animal that is locked in a cage (literally). You probably think I am off my meds about now...a little searching is your friend.
Hope you are doing well, and I am still jealous as heck of your Pantera! One of these days I am going to meet you and hopefully get a ride. It has been decades since I have driven a one!
Sludge is the byproducts of oil breakdown and particulate matter that settle, obviously. This a good argument to change your oil when necessary (based upon driving habits) and while HOT after it has been stirred up and less viscous.
Not very sporting to tease a wild animal that is locked in a cage (literally). You probably think I am off my meds about now...a little searching is your friend.
Hope you are doing well, and I am still jealous as heck of your Pantera! One of these days I am going to meet you and hopefully get a ride. It has been decades since I have driven a one!
Happy Saturday,
Dave
Dave, I haven't been here in a while, lots of stuff on my plate. I just like to tease Mark, every so often. I've always liked Mark too!
As far as the Pantera goes, it's worth so much money that we don't drive it hardly at all anymore. You two ever get out to Vegas, and you can have a turn at the Polecat. Just a big fancy GoKart.
Dave, I haven't been here in a while, lots of stuff on my plate. I just like to tease Mark, every so often. I've always liked Mark too!
As far as the Pantera goes, it's worth so much money that we don't drive it hardly at all anymore. You two ever get out to Vegas, and you can have a turn at the Polecat. Just a big fancy GoKart.
Everybody likes to tease Mark! LOL He's tough and can take it, known him for a long long time, I consider him a friend.
Ohhhh, we will definitely take you up on that, thank you for such a gracious offer!! Jeannie has never been to Vegas, I used to consider it my second home in the 80s, heck, I married wife #2 outside at the Pool Wedding Chapel at the Tropicana in early 90s.
Like a gokart...Oh I still remember, I have driven either 3 or 4 before including the Group 5 racer...it's more than a fancy gokart...much, much more and there is nothing quite like it!!!
Originally Posted by Strosek Ultra If my memory serves me well, the oil used in the Alpina causing the severe sludge was the last oil from a 60 liter container. Remember it looked a little bit out of the ordinary having some kind of lumps?
Post from Ake above in the original thread today^^^ If the product expired (product in question has a 24 month shelf life) due to being in a 60L container for however long and the installer knowingly saw it may have been contaminated but used it anyway, then blames us and posts pictures of the internet. It is our responsibility to point out all possible scenarios based on experience and defend our image/reputation. I thank you though for being open minded about the situation and confirming some of our beliefs of what happened (the CCV being possibly clogged- Ake says it wasn't btw) -Nick
And apologies to GregBBRD- didn't mean to hijack your thread.
As previously said my memory is vague making me to go back and check my records concerning the BMW Alpina B10 4,6 V8.
On the first day of September 2012 I performed an oil change on the Alpina car. It might have been the last oil out of the old 60L container, oil which seemed to have some kind of lumps, but I am not sure if it went into the Alpina or another car.
During September of 2012 a new 60L container of Motul 300V 15W50 oil was delivered to me.
On the fourth day of September 2013 another oil change. This time for the first time ever the lower part of the sump was removed for inspection. Oil sludge not very much was found, the sump was cleaned and put back.
On the 21st day of March 2015 another oil change. Everything looked alright, the sump was not inspected.
In early April 2017 another oil change was coming up. As for some time noisy lifters had been heard from the engine , the lower sump was removed and heavy oil sludge as can be viewed on several pictures in this thread was found.
I want to be fully open minded, I want to know the cause of the problem with heavy oil sludge. It cannot be aging oil, it must be something else. As a matter of fact, during my fifty years in the business, I have never ever heard anyone mention motor oil having a best before date. Checking oil containers over here no dates whatsoever can be found. My BMW connections in Germany say do not use Motul Oil, it is not approved by BMW nor Alpina. They recommend Castrol Edge or Shell Helix Ultra motor oil. Nowadays it is high fashion to use very thin motor oil in order to save the globe. Thin oil will reduce cold start friction and emissions but what will it do to camshaft wear in flat tappet engines like ours especially when high lift cams and stiffer valve springs are installed? Over here in Europe the word ZDDP is never mentioned, I have never seen it on any type of oil container.
Åke
*
Interesting. Have you seen other engines be they 928 or not in such condition Greg? I use MOTUL in my motorcycles and they 'seem' to run cooler and 'better' - but, this is always nice to entertain when you spend double on MOTUL than 'other' oils. I wager that you perhaps have not seen such a 928 oil pan as this - mine, the S4 car I acquired some 2 yrs ago...
Over here in Europe the word ZDDP is never mentioned, I have never seen it on any type of oil container.
Åke
*
I believe ZDDP is essentially Zinc & Phosphorous levels, and although they're never mentioned on the container itself, those of us that know higher levels of those are critical for preventing valvetrain wear, seek out oils that have the proper amounts of them.* I don't have any personal experience with either Amsoil or Redline, but I hear them talked about.* Personally, I use Joe Gibbs Racing Driven DT40 in all my cars that require a 5W/40 weight oil (both 997s, Cayenne, & pickup truck) and Driven DT50 in those that require a 20W/50 weight oil (914, 928, and Indmar marine engine).* The problem with too high a level of these is that they can damage the catalytic converters, so you won't find a Porsche A40 approved oil with high levels of these - about the maximum you'll find is 1,000 PPM but 1,200 PPM is better.* If you have an older car like a 928 that doesn't have Cats, then you don't have to worry about the higher levels of these components.* If you need an A40 approved oil for peace of mind or a vehicle in warranty, I recommend the Motul xcess.* If A40 approval isn't a concern, then the Driven synthetics.
One of the synthetics with higher levels of these was Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 5W/40, but it did not seem to have very good shear properties for high RPM engines and the additive package would break down in as few as 3,500 miles in my 997s, as confirmed by UOAs from Blackstone Labs,* so I switched to Motul* xcess 8100 5W/40 that did much better.* The Motul would hold up well to 4,500 or 5,000 miles showing only a slight reduction in viscosity, but I was still seeking out a synthetic with more Zinc & Phosphorous, which is why I started using the DT40 instead, and it remains less with better viscosity indices as well.
Here's a UOA history on my 997 with the different oils labelled
and here's the one on my supercharged 928 - I know Shell Rotella is a popular dino oil for these cars, but based on these results, there are better choices as all the wear metals are higher, much higher, and the viscosity indices lower.
08-10-2018, 03:15 PM
