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I've been a fan of Motul for years but do not use it on my personal car or my customers cars. Availability vs price is my only reason honestly. My go to for customers cars is the Mobil 1 15w-50 (inexpensive and has all the good bits our cars need) and for the guys/gals who drive the **** out of their cars, or are modified I almost always use Brad Penn 20w-50 (always comes back from Blackstone Labs great but the price has gone up) unless they request Amsoil or Redline. I used to use RP HPS but moved away from that over the years. So sell me on Motul.
I've been a fan of Motul for years but do not use it on my personal car or my customers cars. Availability vs price is my only reason honestly. My go to for customers cars is the Mobil 1 15w-50 (inexpensive and has all the good bits our cars need) and for the guys/gals who drive the **** out of their cars, or are modified I almost always use Brad Penn 20w-50 (always comes back from Blackstone Labs great but the price has gone up) unless they request Amsoil or Redline. I used to use RP HPS but moved away from that over the years. So sell me on Motul.
Why should I switch?
Hello,
Thank you for the kind words. I think you'll be surprised by the competitiveness of our 4100 Power 15W50 vs Mobil 15W50. Based on a virgin oil analysis there will be considerable upside vs the M1 and Brad Penn. Below is a break down:
4100 Power 15W50 vs Brad Penn 20W50, Mobil 1 15W50:
TBN/total base number
Purpose: generally speaking, it's an oil's ability to fight contaminants and neutralize acids
Motul: 10.5
Brad Penn: 10.6
M1: 8.6
Viscosity Index
Purpose: an oil's ability to stay within grade as oil temperature change
Motul: 147
Brad Penn: 140
M1: 153
Based on the information above and knowing the popularity of the Brad Penn and Mobil 1 in the Porsche community, the 4100 is more than suitable for your application. Similar anti wear numbers to start so no major difference in regards to that part of the formulation vs Brad Penn but pretty large jump on the phosphouros side vs the M1. Other than that, the 2 major take away's from this is the Moly levels and Calcium levels. The nice dose of moly will lessen the internal friction of the engine (more power, better fuel economy) and therefore will decrease wear levels and engine temperatures while the increased calcium levels will provide additional cleaning power. Having a slightly higher viscosity index will also provide more consistent viscosity at varying temperatures vs the Brad Penn. M1 has a slightly higher VI vs 4100. That being said, that small difference does not overcome the significant advantages of 4100
If you need to find this product and you own a shop/garage you can buy from one of our distributors that covers the DFW area: Oil Depot by Promomin, Turbo Lubricants, SSF, Worldpac, Turn 14, Motovicity + more. There are online retailers such as Summit Racing that also sell this product. Hope that helps. -Nick
Thank you for an awesome reply with details. I totally forgot that Worldpac and SSF both carry Motul. I suppose my head is stuck too far on the parts side and not the lubricant side. Will have to check it out since I'm due for an oil change on my car.
...Elevated levels of ZDDP will help protect high lift cams and or flat tappet cams. Overhead-modern cam designs are actually quite easy on oil. The timing system however (chain, sprockets etc) are exposed to the main part of the abuse an engine takes these days...
You do understand that the 928 engine is a 45 year old design, right?
It is a 'flat tappet' cam engine. And, for the 16v motors, there is NO 'timing system' exposed to oil. The 32v motors have a small chain connecting the two cams in each head.
To be a bit blunt, you are a salesman. You can claim anything you want.
Until it's on a data sheet, in writing, subject to the rules and regs of that sort of thing, I tend to be very skeptical of any claim made.
You do understand that the 928 engine is a 45 year old design, right?
Yup. And...
it is Alusil. Not a lot of Alusil engines out there AFAIK. Modern Porsche engines are Nikasil and Lokasil - which is only on the cylinder walls rather than part of the alloy.
Question for Nick the Motul Rep:
Originally Posted by Motul
300V is also fortified with sulfurized esters (sulfur is also an anti wear compound) for added protection in addition to high ZDDP levels.-Nick
Any word on the effects of the sulfurized esters on Alusil alloy?
You do understand that the 928 engine is a 45 year old design, right?
It is a 'flat tappet' cam engine. And, for the 16v motors, there is NO 'timing system' exposed to oil. The 32v motors have a small chain connecting the two cams in each head.
To be a bit blunt, you are a salesman. You can claim anything you want.
Until it's on a data sheet, in writing, subject to the rules and regs of that sort of thing, I tend to be very skeptical of any claim made.
Hello there,
Ok. I'm not sure where we are missing each other on this one? I referenced old engines with the engines design you speak of, needing elevated levels of ZDDP vs modern engines that will rely less on ZDDP as the more demanding parts of the engine have changed (internal timing chains/sprockets w/ advanced timing retardation/advancing abilities, there isn't much demand at the camshaft level like there used to be). Can you elaborate where I've steered you guys wrong?
If your concern was for the actual ZDDP and moly count or claim of 300V, an independent VOA is below. Please respect I cannot post internal data but happy to deny/confirm speculation or questions people have in regards to formulation.
No offense taken- it's probably worth introducing myself to you all. I have over 10 years experience with a technical lubricant background and hold STLE certification as a certified lubricant specialist and an OMA for used oil analysis. I help oversee all of Motul USA's automotive business and lend my time to the technical side when time permits (Rennlist being one of those times). I hope I have been helpful thus far in our conversations in all the Porsche sub-tech forums we've interacted with. Please feel free to drop me a line anytime with questions you may have. -Nick
it is Alusil. Not a lot of Alusil engines out there AFAIK. Modern Porsche engines are Nikasil and Lokasil - which is only on the cylinder walls rather than part of the alloy.
Question for Nick the Motul Rep:
Any word on the effects of the sulfurized esters on Alusil alloy?
Hello,
We have had no issues in with Alusil/Lokasil engines with 300V- I am not aware of Alusil or Lokasil being susceptible to sulfur exposure and in addition, the sulfur content is not high enough to have an impact on even the most sensitive materials out there including Nikasil lined BMW engines. BMW from what I remember moved to Alusil due to the Nikasil deteriorating from supposed high sulfur fuel contamination. Which has now also been solved because the US adopted new sulfur standards for gasoline in 2017. <10 ppm of sulfur is now required.-Nick
As previously said my memory is vague making me to go back and check my records concerning the BMW Alpina B10 4,6 V8.
On the first day of September 2012 I performed an oil change on the Alpina car. It might have been the last oil out of the old Motul 300V 15W50 60L oil container, oil which seemed to have some kind of lumps, but I am not sure if it went into the Alpina or another car.
During September of 2012 a new 60L container of Motul 300V 15W50 oil was delivered to me.
On the fourth day of September 2013 another oil change. This time for the first time ever the lower part of the sump was removed for inspection. Oil sludge not very much was found, the sump was cleaned and put back.
On the 21st day of March 2015 another oil change. Everything looked alright, the sump was not inspected.
In early April 2017 another oil change was coming up. As for some time noisy lifters had been heard from the engine , the lower sump was removed and heavy oil sludge as can be viewed on several pictures in this thread was found.
I want to be fully open minded, I want to know the cause of the problem with heavy oil sludge. It cannot be aging oil, it must be something else. As a matter of fact, during my fifty years in the business, I have never ever heard anyone mention motor oil having a best before date. Checking oil containers over here no dates whatsoever can be found. My BMW connections in Germany say do not use Motul Oil, it is not approved by BMW nor Alpina. They recommend Castrol Edge or Shell Helix Ultra motor oil. Nowadays it is high fashion to use very thin motor oil 0W20 or 0W30 in order to save the globe. Thin oil will reduce cold start friction and emissions but what will it do to camshaft wear in flat tappet engines like ours especially when high lift cams and stiffer valve springs are installed? Over here in Europe the word ZDDP is never mentioned, I have never seen it on any type of oil container.
Åke
PS Forgot to say I just had the sump on our old Volvo off, our winter wagon. This is the first time in 720.000 km the sump is removed. This car has never seen Motul oil, I have always been using a low price synthetic 5W50 oil from unknown source. No oil sludge could be found but all the walls of the sheet metal sump as well the rest of the interior of the engine is covered by a thin layer of black carbon deposits. I am going to clean out as much of the deposit as possible. The engine is running good, almost no oil consumption and the goal is to take it to a million km.
Last edited by Strosek Ultra; 08-12-2018 at 09:17 AM.
Mixing 15W50/20W60: No problem here- you just made your own viscosity. The 15W50 is more than suitable for your application. The 20W60 is primarily used for cars with high fuel dilution. I did a quick viscosity calculation for you as well.- with the mix you're basically at a high viscosity 20W50 :
UOA details: A lot is left out of a UOA especially larger wear particles that get trapped in the filter. They will not show up in the UOA so inspect the filter closely for anything out of the ordinary.
300V choice: Sure if you don't mind spending the money. I think your practice of draining 1x a year is acceptable as 300V is not a long drain product and not meant for long period use as it is a motorsport product.
Hope that helps-Nick
Hi Nick,
thanks for the reply. I usually keep an eye on the oil filter. There are no visible metallic particles, the only thing I find routinely is small black specs, maybe 10-20 pieces in the whole filter and with 0.5mm diameter each. These have a soft and greasy consistency. Any idea what this could be?
Kurt
____________
90 S4 satin black metallic
928 OC charter member
..........300V has a shelf of 24 months. The ester molecule is quite unstable and will deteriorate (gel) when exposed to long periods of non-use. Having it sit in a non-air tight metal container for possible years will only make this worse This would've been very useful before.
I have never heard of an expiration date in connection with motor oil. Certainly not with dino oil, which is hundreds of millions of years old. Maybe synths are different? I would not want to bother with a product that has an expiration date for my 928. I use non-synthetic oil, as I like the characteristics of it, and I do not believe that these older engines need a synthetic brand to perform and be preserved properly.
Shelf life of synthetic motor oil is dependent upon the additives and the environmental conditions. The motor oil quality may deteriorate, and sludge may be formed, if moisture is introduced into the oil due to condensation or mishandling. Water reacts with the oil additives to produce insoluble substances that reduce the oil shelf life. Moisture may also encourage microbial growth in the lubricants.It is recommended that the storage temperature should be stable. Generally, temperatures below 0ºF or above 100ºF will cause oil degradation, with reduced lubrication capability. Extreme low temperatures may form sediments, and separation of additives. Manufacturers normally recommend an environmental temperature between 40 degrees and 85 degrees Fahrenheit. The presence of contaminants in the environment like dust may degenerate the motor oil quality.Therefore, if the oil can is not opened, the oil may be serviceable for long durations. Finally, the shelf life is also influenced by the product design. Elements like copper and iron can act as catalysts to promote the process of oxidation, and consequently reduce the shelf life.
I have never heard of an expiration date in connection with motor oil. Certainly not with dino oil, which is hundreds of millions of years old. Maybe synths are different? I would not want to bother with a product that has an expiration date for my 928. I use non-synthetic oil, as I like the characteristics of it, and I do not believe that these older engines need a synthetic brand to perform and be preserved properly.
"which is hundreds of millions of years old"
Not once we've done chemistry with it...oil in the bottle is far from tar from the ground.
As previously said my memory is vague making me to go back and check my records concerning the BMW Alpina B10 4,6 V8.
On the first day of September 2012 I performed an oil change on the Alpina car. It might have been the last oil out of the old Motul 300V 15W50 60L oil container, oil which seemed to have some kind of lumps, but I am not sure if it went into the Alpina or another car.
During September of 2012 a new 60L container of Motul 300V 15W50 oil was delivered to me.
On the fourth day of September 2013 another oil change. This time for the first time ever the lower part of the sump was removed for inspection. Oil sludge not very much was found, the sump was cleaned and put back.
On the 21st day of March 2015 another oil change. Everything looked alright, the sump was not inspected.
In early April 2017 another oil change was coming up. As for some time noisy lifters had been heard from the engine , the lower sump was removed and heavy oil sludge as can be viewed on several pictures in this thread was found.
I want to be fully open minded, I want to know the cause of the problem with heavy oil sludge. It cannot be aging oil, it must be something else. As a matter of fact, during my fifty years in the business, I have never ever heard anyone mention motor oil having a best before date. Checking oil containers over here no dates whatsoever can be found. My BMW connections in Germany say do not use Motul Oil, it is not approved by BMW nor Alpina. They recommend Castrol Edge or Shell Helix Ultra motor oil. Nowadays it is high fashion to use very thin motor oil 0W20 or 0W30 in order to save the globe. Thin oil will reduce cold start friction and emissions but what will it do to camshaft wear in flat tappet engines like ours especially when high lift cams and stiffer valve springs are installed? Over here in Europe the word ZDDP is never mentioned, I have never seen it on any type of oil container.
Åke
PS Forgot to say I just had the sump on our old Volvo off, our winter wagon. This is the first time in 720.000 km the sump is removed. This car has never seen Motul oil, I have always been using a low price synthetic 5W50 oil from unknown source. No oil sludge could be found but all the walls of the sheet metal sump as well the rest of the interior of the engine is covered by a thin layer of black carbon deposits. I am going to clean out as much of the deposit as possible. The engine is running good, almost no oil consumption and the goal is to take it to a million km.
Hi Ake,
I really don't want to go down the road of Motul/me being defensive or it come across that way. I really do want to help you understand what's going on as well- the following quote by the other poster does begin to outline what can happen if the oil is not used for long periods of time and the effects it can have (gelling, separation/fall out of additive package from the base oil- which I think is what happened here).
Originally Posted by DeWolf
Shelf Life
Shelf life of synthetic motor oil is dependent upon the additives and the environmental conditions. The motor oil quality may deteriorate, and sludge may be formed, if moisture is introduced into the oil due to condensation or mishandling. Water reacts with the oil additives to produce insoluble substances that reduce the oil shelf life. Moisture may also encourage microbial growth in the lubricants.It is recommended that the storage temperature should be stable. Generally, temperatures below 0ºF or above 100ºF will cause oil degradation, with reduced lubrication capability. Extreme low temperatures may form sediments, and separation of additives. Manufacturers normally recommend an environmental temperature between 40 degrees and 85 degrees Fahrenheit. The presence of contaminants in the environment like dust may degenerate the motor oil quality.Therefore, if the oil can is not opened, the oil may be serviceable for long durations. Finally, the shelf life is also influenced by the product design. Elements like copper and iron can act as catalysts to promote the process of oxidation, and consequently reduce the shelf life.
The 300V product is especially susceptible to long storage times due to its chemical make up (ester based- not petroleum, high EP levels). This is not unique to us, Mobil, Valvoline, Shell and others have plenty of limits on aging product including synthetic engine oils- usually in the 12-24 month and 36 month range. I really think we need to consider the aforementioned facts and that this drum of oil is 5 years old, stored in a metal container and possibly being exposed to large swings in temperatures. Changes in storage temperature will further lead to the deterioration of the oil as well and can cut the lubricant life by 50% in some cases. Again having an ester based product will exacerbate this as shown below. This is a formal fact of our industry and we do have production dates and batch numbers on every single one of our products because of this. Below is a chart for your viewing that may help dissect some of this:
As for your other questions- while 300V is not approved by any OEM as it is a motorsport dedicated product, our 6100 and 8100 line of oils have all of the same OEM approvals as the Castrol and Shell Helix products you mentioned for the entire German car market including BMW. We have the following BMW approvals across a wide variety of products: LL-01, LL-01FE, BMW LL-04, LL-12FE, LL-14FE+. I'm sure your BMW guys are just mentioning the in-service fill products that are available at the OEM dealer that have BMW parts #'s. I think a good product for you is our 8100 X-cess 5W40- more on that below.*
As for ZDDP, you'd be correct that it is not featured too often as part of the conversation in Europe. However, the term "SAPS" is. It is an acronym that stands for "sulfated ash, phosphorous, sulfur). You have 3 different SAPS values- low, mid and full. In short, it basically identifies the metallic additive content in a given oil- ZDDP or zinc, phosphorous, sulfur and other additives are a part of this as well. Full SAPS oils will be high in ZDDP where mid and low SAPS will have less. This is mainly due to protecting sensitive emission systems that include DPF's and of course catalytic converters. Generally speaking, low viscosity oils (0W20, 5W20, most 5W30's, 10W30) will almost always be mid or low SAPS as they are considered energy conserving products, as you mentioned, due to lowering friction and enhancing fuel economy while also protecting the longevity of the emission system. These oils tend to have what is known as a low HTHS viscosity as well (some 5W30's will be high HTHS) for further fuel economy improvements. There is no such thing as a low HTHS high viscosity oil like a 0W40, 5W40, 15W50 etc. They will always be high HTHS for high engine protection.*
I mention this because if you use a full SAPS, high HTHS viscosity product you will have high engine protection for high horsepower (flat tappet, high lift cams, forced induction etc) and for engines that demand a lot out of the oil- the viscosity is almost secondary unless specified by your car maker. Viscosity is mainly dependent on climate and ambient temperature. BMW recommends everything from a 0W30 to a 15W50 because of this. That being said, a 15W50 in a cold to moderate climate like Sweden is way too high of a viscosity. If you lived in a high humidity-hot climate then ok, but I'd like to see that come back down to a 5W40 at the minimum for your car. Just be sure it is an ACEA A3/B4 (full SAPS, high HTHS) product or a motorsport product like 300V that will more than likely feature similar formulation characteristics.
If you have a virgin oil sample of the oil you used or even the used oil sample from your 5 series, I can get this sent to our lab in France for further evaluation. Please PM me with your contact info and we can go from there. I really do want to help and I hope the other posters see that. I appreciate you having an open mind in wanting to figure this out -Nick
08-10-2018, 03:14 PM
