‘87 S4 No Spark 155k miles
03-18-2018, 07:34 AM
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‘87 S4 No Spark 155k miles
Ok guys, please give me your input.
The car was very well maintained until I shot some WD40 in to a couple of vacuum lines, it started running very rich but ran. The dealer techs couldn’t find a problem. Drove it again but it went in to limp mode, I’m assuming, billowing smoke at the exhaust and I barely made it home; the plugs were black with carbon and IIRC soaked with gasoline. That’s the last time it started 10 years ago.
It had spark back then but fuel stopped getting to the injectors. Replaced the FPR, replaced the MAF, had the brain checked, fooled with a bunch of relays, replaced the fuel filter (the fuel pump sounded fine), but nothing worked.
Fast forward to today: The car sat 10-11 years. Changed the oil and filter; the oil was black with carbon but no water. Drained and strained the fuel, I had put a bottle of Techron in that fuel so I suppose that’s why it came out as gas and not goo, just an amber color but still gas. Nylon shavings came out with the fuel, since there is a mesh filter between the tank and the fuel pump I’m going with the assumption that they are shavings from the FP, perhaps the impeller. Added Kano Kroil to the cylinders and waited days, ended up giving her a tap with a hammer, the engine turned; primed the engine by hand 25 rotations a day for three days, turned smoothly and the oil is fresh and clean.
Had the injectors cleaned and refurbished, installed a new fuel pump and filter, the car is getting gas, it started yesterday and was running for about a minute, rough, but running on it’s own and there were no clanging sounds! But that was it.
Pulled a plug wire and put a spark plug in and grounded it, no spark at #1, I haven’t tried any others. The caps and rotors can’t be bad, it was running. Pulled the EZK relay and taped it closed, still no spark.
The car is garaged at a house that I just sold, today and tomorrow morning is all I have to work with before calling a tow truck. Anyone have any ‘simple’ (I’m not a skilled mechanic) ideas of why no spark? Thanks in advance.
The car was very well maintained until I shot some WD40 in to a couple of vacuum lines, it started running very rich but ran. The dealer techs couldn’t find a problem. Drove it again but it went in to limp mode, I’m assuming, billowing smoke at the exhaust and I barely made it home; the plugs were black with carbon and IIRC soaked with gasoline. That’s the last time it started 10 years ago.
It had spark back then but fuel stopped getting to the injectors. Replaced the FPR, replaced the MAF, had the brain checked, fooled with a bunch of relays, replaced the fuel filter (the fuel pump sounded fine), but nothing worked.
Fast forward to today: The car sat 10-11 years. Changed the oil and filter; the oil was black with carbon but no water. Drained and strained the fuel, I had put a bottle of Techron in that fuel so I suppose that’s why it came out as gas and not goo, just an amber color but still gas. Nylon shavings came out with the fuel, since there is a mesh filter between the tank and the fuel pump I’m going with the assumption that they are shavings from the FP, perhaps the impeller. Added Kano Kroil to the cylinders and waited days, ended up giving her a tap with a hammer, the engine turned; primed the engine by hand 25 rotations a day for three days, turned smoothly and the oil is fresh and clean.
Had the injectors cleaned and refurbished, installed a new fuel pump and filter, the car is getting gas, it started yesterday and was running for about a minute, rough, but running on it’s own and there were no clanging sounds! But that was it.
Pulled a plug wire and put a spark plug in and grounded it, no spark at #1, I haven’t tried any others. The caps and rotors can’t be bad, it was running. Pulled the EZK relay and taped it closed, still no spark.
The car is garaged at a house that I just sold, today and tomorrow morning is all I have to work with before calling a tow truck. Anyone have any ‘simple’ (I’m not a skilled mechanic) ideas of why no spark? Thanks in advance.
Last edited by BYAIC; 03-18-2018 at 08:07 AM.
03-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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No spark on an S4 is usually the result of a dead or dying Crank Position Sensor (CPS.)
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
03-18-2018, 01:17 PM
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No spark on an S4 is usually the result of a dead or dying Crank Position Sensor (CPS.)
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
03-18-2018, 01:20 PM
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The FPR is new, I tested the dampers back in the day but not recently, they need to be checked out but I really need spark though at the moment. Thanks for pointing that out.
03-18-2018, 07:42 PM
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No spark on an S4 is usually the result of a dead or dying Crank Position Sensor (CPS.)
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
It’s hard to diagnose 100% without an oscilloscope. There are less-certain ways, such as if the tach needle is totally unmoving during cranking.
All that written, you should line up the tow truck unless you have a well-stocked “928 parts store” nearby.
My wife has given me a week to get it running or do something with it off site. I don’t know where the CPS is but I’m guessing it is at the front to the right of the oil filler cap or at the left on the fuel rail (that one crumbled in my fingers when I touched it the remove the injectors). If you have a moment please let me know if it is one of those two.
03-18-2018, 07:48 PM
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It is neither one of these pictures. The first picture is of the front Knock sensor connector. The second is a picture of the rear knock sensor connector.
Where are you located? Someone may be local to you to help you get your wife off the warpath.
Where are you located? Someone may be local to you to help you get your wife off the warpath.
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03-18-2018, 08:15 PM
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03-18-2018, 10:07 PM
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Sean@928Docs is in Denton. Best 928 Specific Mechanic in the area.
Roger Tyson is in Double Oak, Texas (right by Flower Mound) Roger@928sRus. 928 parts supplier extraordinaire.
The DFW 928 group is very active. We hold a breakfast every first Saturday at the Dixie House on 183 in Euless at 8am. The early start affords us the opportunity to work on cars (our own cars or other's cars) after the breakfast meeting. You are allowed to come to the breakfast without a 928.
Roger Tyson is in Double Oak, Texas (right by Flower Mound) Roger@928sRus. 928 parts supplier extraordinaire.
The DFW 928 group is very active. We hold a breakfast every first Saturday at the Dixie House on 183 in Euless at 8am. The early start affords us the opportunity to work on cars (our own cars or other's cars) after the breakfast meeting. You are allowed to come to the breakfast without a 928.
03-18-2018, 11:45 PM
#10
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The car sounds like it is sound, but there are some messed-up connectors and likely some other issues, what it needs are some experience eyeballs on it.
Major problems are rare, minor problems are abundant. The CPS is one of those minor problems but it lives at the rear of the engine (atop the bellhousing), difficult to get at and usually a b*tch to change.
03-19-2018, 05:36 AM
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Considering the historical description, your current circumstances, the obvious deferred maintenance, your lack of detailed knowledge of the workings of the car and Sean being round the corner from you there is nothing to compute here. If there are a couple of simple tweaks needed to get the thing running Sean will find them in minutes.
Take your knock sensor connections- even though the connectors have crumbled they may still function [mine were like that until recently- but they worked and I knew it]. If they do not work you lose 6 degrees of advance on the ignition and the thing will lose a bunch of power/torque. To change out the sensors requires removal on the inlet manifold- that is not a small job. However given the state of the connectors chances are there are a shed load of others items in similarly degraded condition. Nowadays I can pull my inlet manifold in an about an hour or so and put it all back together in about 2 hours or so plus whatever needs doing whilst it is off. The list of parts that may need to be replaced is extensive and the time taken to do so depends on what is needed. Roger has a spreadsheet of the potential items needed [and the cost]. Beyond that the wiring harnesses may need some refurb not to mention fuel lines, power steering hoses, auto transmission cooler hoses that more than likely need attending to.
Give you are moving home you are likely up to your gills in wifey grief and the car thus does not get a look in. If you give Sean a call he may well be able to advise the most economical way to get the thing to his premises but if he is only 40 miles away and you intend to keep the car then just do it- no thought needed.
Take your knock sensor connections- even though the connectors have crumbled they may still function [mine were like that until recently- but they worked and I knew it]. If they do not work you lose 6 degrees of advance on the ignition and the thing will lose a bunch of power/torque. To change out the sensors requires removal on the inlet manifold- that is not a small job. However given the state of the connectors chances are there are a shed load of others items in similarly degraded condition. Nowadays I can pull my inlet manifold in an about an hour or so and put it all back together in about 2 hours or so plus whatever needs doing whilst it is off. The list of parts that may need to be replaced is extensive and the time taken to do so depends on what is needed. Roger has a spreadsheet of the potential items needed [and the cost]. Beyond that the wiring harnesses may need some refurb not to mention fuel lines, power steering hoses, auto transmission cooler hoses that more than likely need attending to.
Give you are moving home you are likely up to your gills in wifey grief and the car thus does not get a look in. If you give Sean a call he may well be able to advise the most economical way to get the thing to his premises but if he is only 40 miles away and you intend to keep the car then just do it- no thought needed.
03-19-2018, 07:41 AM
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Considering the historical description, your current circumstances, the obvious deferred maintenance, your lack of detailed knowledge of the workings of the car and Sean being round the corner from you there is nothing to compute here. If there are a couple of simple tweaks needed to get the thing running Sean will find them in minutes.
Take your knock sensor connections- even though the connectors have crumbled they may still function [mine were like that until recently- but they worked and I knew it]. If they do not work you lose 6 degrees of advance on the ignition and the thing will lose a bunch of power/torque. To change out the sensors requires removal on the inlet manifold- that is not a small job. However given the state of the connectors chances are there are a shed load of others items in similarly degraded condition. Nowadays I can pull my inlet manifold in an about an hour or so and put it all back together in about 2 hours or so plus whatever needs doing whilst it is off. The list of parts that may need to be replaced is extensive and the time taken to do so depends on what is needed. Roger has a spreadsheet of the potential items needed [and the cost]. Beyond that the wiring harnesses may need some refurb not to mention fuel lines, power steering hoses, auto transmission cooler hoses that more than likely need attending to.
Give you are moving home you are likely up to your gills in wifey grief and the car thus does not get a look in. If you give Sean a call he may well be able to advise the most economical way to get the thing to his premises but if he is only 40 miles away and you intend to keep the car then just do it- no thought needed.
Take your knock sensor connections- even though the connectors have crumbled they may still function [mine were like that until recently- but they worked and I knew it]. If they do not work you lose 6 degrees of advance on the ignition and the thing will lose a bunch of power/torque. To change out the sensors requires removal on the inlet manifold- that is not a small job. However given the state of the connectors chances are there are a shed load of others items in similarly degraded condition. Nowadays I can pull my inlet manifold in an about an hour or so and put it all back together in about 2 hours or so plus whatever needs doing whilst it is off. The list of parts that may need to be replaced is extensive and the time taken to do so depends on what is needed. Roger has a spreadsheet of the potential items needed [and the cost]. Beyond that the wiring harnesses may need some refurb not to mention fuel lines, power steering hoses, auto transmission cooler hoses that more than likely need attending to.
Give you are moving home you are likely up to your gills in wifey grief and the car thus does not get a look in. If you give Sean a call he may well be able to advise the most economical way to get the thing to his premises but if he is only 40 miles away and you intend to keep the car then just do it- no thought needed.
Roger tried to help, he’s a very nice man; he sent the brain off and it came back as fine; he also gave the thumbs up on the fuel pump working because it sounded like it was on. Today with a new fuel pump the car gets gas (not faulting Roger for that either, he came here to help and this car seems to have a black number on it).
Nothing is free, but I won’t dump thousands in to this 30 year old antique. The car has sentimental value to me, I’d love to just take it for a 100 mile last drive down the freeway, but then it’s gets a new owner. It’s worth not much if it’s not running, if I could get spark like it had before it would run and I would spend a couple thousand and let the dealership techs sort out the other gremlins, and then sell it, I don’t have room for extra cars. As it is I have a week then I’ll take it to the dealership and give them one more crack at it, if that doesn’t work I guess 928 International may be a buyer, but I really don’t want that.
Thank you for taking the time to try to help. Best!
03-19-2018, 08:08 AM
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As the car sits (and has done for a while) it sounds like it needs a top end refresh done including the sensors such as the hall and knock sensors done.
This also allows you to clean all the grounds and replace or fix any faulty wiring. Sean makes harnesses as well
It takes time but isn't too crazy to do in a week. Many can do it in a few weekends. Sean could probably do it in a day or 2 without refinishing the intake and cam covers.
It will probably cost you ~$1600 in parts though (my high estimate).
Doing a timing belt at this point would be a good idea as well as it is well past the best by date.
Whichever choice you make I hope you can enjoy the car some more in the near future.
This also allows you to clean all the grounds and replace or fix any faulty wiring. Sean makes harnesses as well
It takes time but isn't too crazy to do in a week. Many can do it in a few weekends. Sean could probably do it in a day or 2 without refinishing the intake and cam covers.
It will probably cost you ~$1600 in parts though (my high estimate).
Doing a timing belt at this point would be a good idea as well as it is well past the best by date.
Whichever choice you make I hope you can enjoy the car some more in the near future.
03-19-2018, 08:10 AM
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Best wishes for the new home and hope you get yourself sorted ASAP- clearly this S4 is not for you so let's hope it finds a new home quickly and you get the result you want..
03-19-2018, 09:19 AM
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I don’t have time this morning to explain it. I will ask the other folks in the room to do so. I’m sure that they can.